Larry, I see that Amazon "manufacturers this product to order". I would not recommend that option. We manufactured the original CD at Sanyo USA (best of form) on the late night shift for best quality. I believe that original version is what is on Dana's site. I suggest you go there.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,521 responses Add your response
Death and Rebirth lives at the center of life - at the heart of understanding. Finding grace in that process ranks as a central challenge and measure of our consciousness. I see music as a key unlocking access to that path. I beg your permission to suggest a piano album I worked on, Dana Cunningham's first album Dancing at the Gate. Enjoy the journey. I met young Dana after she had recorded her earliest work in a small room on a 5' Kawai with a single pair of simple mics to ordinary late 90's digital tape - mastered well enough to sell at retreats. I remastered those songs on then (Y2K) audiophile level equipment with my Classe and CS2 2s as monitors. The result transformed the album from being something to hear into an involving musical journey. I think it provides that key more directly than her later Color of Light album produced by Will Ackerman of Windham Hill Records fame, using 18 mics and $multimillion gear. Live music direct to the heart. |
Oblgny so sorry to learn about your run of bad luck. I had to offload my very nice old gear about 10 years ago when I moved continents. Never an easy thing to do but what I can tell you is that it at least gave me a chance to reassess what I had before and very gradually build a much more effective system from the ground up. It took some time, but I’m very happy with where I’m at. I really hope the same for you. Starting afresh at least enables you to apply acquired knowledge and to learn from the equipment purchasing mistakes we’ve all made in the past. The best discovery was the Thiel 3.5s that have gone on to become the fulcrum of my system. |
oblgny Good to see you again. As luck would have it, there are plenty of Thiel loudspeakers in heavy rotation on the secondary market. You will know when it is time to obtain your next pair. Hope you are well and enjoying this Fall season in NY. I look forward to your next excellent system. Happy Listening! |
On the current topic of amps, I’ve been running my 3.5s for the past year on my VPI 299D tube amp, sometimes with EL34s, but mostly with KT150s. The results have been astonishingly good and there’s tons of power to drive them, though I’d judge I’m a pretty modest user of gain. There were only 100 of these VPI amps made, but I understand they have a lot of Primaluna parts in them, inc the same excellent toroidal transformers, so anyone using, say, a Primaluna Dialogue should get similarly impressive results. |
I once used a Placette passive preamp with my 3.5’s and found that the bottom end pretty much dropped out. Figuring I’d remove as much as I could between the speakers and the amp I assumed I’d squeeze just a tad more “everything” I got from the speakers... What I got was a very bright, harsh top end and a virtual removal of the bottom end - something the 3.5’s excelled in providing. No knock against the Placette - it would probably have seen better synergy with a more colored amp then my Pass X150.5 was, so I just popped my ARC preamp back in the chain and resumed chasing the audio dragon. PS: I am currently in the agonizing process of rebuilding my two channel setup after having a spectacularly sh*tty run of bad luck this summer past. Fortunately, owning relatively expensive stuff does allow for one to raise cash when such happenstances as mine drop in for a visit. Were it not for this “hobby” of chasing the audio dragon my situation would have been considerably worse. What I sold off covered my attorney fees! At the moment the best equipment I have is a pair of Meadowlark Kestrel loudspeakers - a very worthy substitute/stopgap for Thiel - that I recaptured from my girlfriend. (I’d given them to her a few years back) Those, along with a Marantz 2250b receiver and an Oppo disc player, now comprise my “audiophile” setup. *Sigh* I’m awaiting the arrival of a Bluesound Powernode 2 which will become the temporary heart of my system for the time being. While the Marantz/Meadowlark thing worked well in her house, it simply didn’t in mine. Anyway...this thread continues to set the proverbial bar for the manner in which threads are sustained over time. My journey here and the info received from unsound, jafant, and many others has been immensely enjoyable. Tom Thiel - your expertise and technical proficiency leave me absolutely agog in wonder - I hope you don’t mind the humble opinions from someone who doesn’t know a mosfet from a misfit. But I know what I like... Hoy hoy! Keep it up! |
I'm very happy with mid level Synergistic Research Cables, both the Tesla T3 power cables and Tesla Accelerator speaker cables. I have purchased these on the preowned market for reasonable prices. Also, I might need a little electrical physics explanation about the current abilities of my ARC Ref150 tube amp. Specs list power supply energy storage as 1040 joules but max current is not listed. This appears to be less than 10 amps driving my CS3.6s with a minimum impedance of 2.3 ohms (below 2.5 over a wide frequency range). I have used much higher current solid state Krells and Bryston amps with my Thiels, but much prefer tubes at my comfortable listening volume. I can only hear distortion/compression above comfortable listening levels. Also, can someone explain why power specs for tube amps are listed the same for different loads? Power output with my ARC amp (and other tube amps I've checked) is the same for 8 and 4 ohms. This really goes against all the talk here about amps that double down. Thanks, Jon |
Hi Rob, Tube rolling can be a money pit if we are not careful! The most expensive tubes I have purchased were $120 a pair so I can't comment on the "top end" stuff. I do notice that Brent Jesse often has high quality tubes that he calls "butt ugly" that are less expensive but the same tube as the more exotic stuff. I have tried several kinds of 12AU7 tubes in my PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium. My general observation is that old European tubes sound better to me than old US tubes. I have not tried any new production tubes other than the stock tubes that came with the PL. Mullard, Brimar,and Amperex sound better to me than Seiman and Telefunken. I find the German tubes are a bit too analytical for me although they sound clean and have great bass. The English and Dutch tubes are warmer sounding and just more comfortable. I have one pair of Mazdas I really like because they have that warmness and rich mid range along with the solid bass of the German varieties. The Mazda is about the only one I have contemplated laying out a couple hundred bucks per tube. Having said that, it is fun to change them out as I get bored and try another one. This helps me avoid spending big money on new components! My Conrad Johnson 17LS-2 is a new toy for me so I have just started tube rolling with it. I replaced the stock Electro Harmonix 6922's with some Phillips PCC88's from the 70's. A stunning improvement to my ear because they sound sweeter with better highs, clarity, sparkle, and bass. Rob, can you share how the Goldpoint passive sounds to you and how it compares to other preamps you have heard? As much as I am enjoying my newly acquired CJ, I an wondering what the next step might be as changing the preamp can really adjust your whole listening experience. Thanks for listening, Dsper |
Good Morning Dspr As I see it from reading all the posts you are the 3rd McCormack amp owner writing on the Thiel owner post , welcome from a DNA-250 owner . Since you are trying to decide which preamp you are going to stay with can I ask what tubes you are using ? Have you done a lot of tube rolling ? I just received my Tavish Designs Asiago phono pre-amp going thru a Goldpoint passive preamp and am in listening heaven . I have been lucky enough to be able to try a few different tubes so far and just like any change you make in your system it is amazing how different each tube can sound . I have found that the Genalex Gold Lion to be my favorite and would use them for all my gain stages if they were available , so I have to mix in my second favorite Tung-Sol gold pin . I have tried some older tubes but the problem with them are either the prices or the matching/balancing . I know this tread is about Thiel speakers BUT with all the input from owners the information about the rest of our systems we can hopefully get the most out of enjoying listening to our Thiel speakers . Rob |
Hi jafant, I have not spent a lot of time with cabling as my moves with amps, preamps, and DACS tend to be going up the food chain and I see big improvements as I audition this type of gear. Having said that, I use less expensive Cullen Cable interconnects on single-ended short runs. These replaced the discount store garden variety and I could tell that the sound became cleaner and more detailed. Interconnects scare me as I have no idea where to start and the prices seem to go absurdly high quickly. My speaker cables are 14 gauge multi strand copper about ten feet long, which I think is short enough to not worry about cables too much. I have read too many articles about blind testing that indicate that listeners cannot tell a difference.I was also influenced by by Roger Russell who was the Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#differences. Thanks for listening Dsper |
tomthiel - thanks for the Benchmark link (a few pages ago), that was a very helpful piece of education for me. Has anyone tried the AHB2 with their Thiels? Based on the literature this one has moved to the top of my list, if I can't find a great deal on a used amp in the meantime. jafant, is it on your list of contenders?
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Hi All, I posted earlier about a treble harshness with my Thiel CS5's. I redid the mirror along the wall test and installed a DIY sound absorber which seems to to have done the trick. The harshness is pretty much gone except for the most badly recorded albums. Since the sound absorber journey, I acquired a Conrad Johnson Premier 17LS-2 preamp. The CJ replaces a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium and I have been switching between the two preamps. In my system, both are good. I think if one wants to concentrate on the main vocal in a mix, the PL is probably a bit better, because it allows you to hear deep into the vocal. Overall, the PL provides a bit more organic bass. The CJ is more nuanced with a better sound stage and, perhaps most importantly, is more musical to my ear than the PL. This may be because of how the leading edges of notes are produced with the CJ. Also, the CJ has a better presence than the PL at lower volume levels. Another change I have just made is to replace the Coda CS with a McCormack DNA-500. The DNA-50 sounds warmer, which is a matter of personal preference, and provides more textural detail to the music. At higher volumes the Coda could begin to sound a bit metallic and, I guess, compressed. The DNA-500 on the other hand, stays well composed regardless of the volume and never gets "edgy". I know the DNA-500 is the better amp for my Thiels in my system. I keep changing out the two preamps and keep coming back to the CJ. The Coda CS and PL were good, but the CJ and DNA-500 are better because that combo is warmer and more nuanced with no solid state glare. So I am a happy camper for now. My future plans are going to be around more experimentation with preamps and or replacing my Hegel HD20 DAC. Any suggestions? Thanks for listening! Dsper |
Jay - the Classe amps tell a long story. The tech is in some kind of trouble and still has some of my gear. Classe had recapped one DR9 a year ago. The new guy replaced and bypassed some signal path caps to match our plan for the second DR9. We also recapped and bypassed the DR6 preamp, so the "new" sound results from the combination. It sounds very good - the "dark" sound of the DR9 seems to have lifted - more incisive and articulate which is what I need for both recording and XO hotrod evaluations. The second DR9 is still in the shop for its total recapping / bypassing. April 11th: " a few days to get parts and a week to do the job." Very long week. Not yet, maybe soon. |
Pardon me Jay, I neglected to mention that phase characteristics in the speaker also influence amp performance. Phase lead and lag illustrate reactive characteristics of the load, which are far more difficult for an amp to drive than a purely resistive load. Thiel speakers do a good job of presenting a non-reactive resistive load which allows the amp its best shot of capably driving that load. So, even though Thiel impedance is very low, requiring lots of current, at least the load is fairly benign. |
The max current spec is instantaneous allowed by the storage capacitors, transformers and various resistance elements. Such a high maximum will maintain integrity of the early onset transient of the signal. Where phase angle comes to play is that such a clean onset transient would be rounded-suppressed-scrambled by a phase incorrect transducer. With phase integrity the system has the potential to replicate such an onset transient. A robust speaker can handle along the lines of 100 watts music power and more like 10 watts continuous. So, this high power delivery is strictly in the realm of transients. To that realm, the improvements brought by audio resistors, ultra capacitors and high purity coils and wire are also in the realm of transient fidelity. A speaker with schlock stuff will measure the same as with great stuff with a steady-state input signal. |
jon_5912 your math is correct. I also would like to know, precisely, how Right phase angle(s) in our Thiel speakers tie all of this together? I do know that it is related to providing an Amp that is 2 to 3 Ohms stable across the frequency range. Perhaps one of our engineer -minded contributors can chime in here? Happy Listening! |
If I remember correctly voltage (v) = current(I) times resistance (r). Watts equal volts(v) times amps(I). That means that if an amp ever actually dumped 90 amps into a 4 ohm load it would be delivering 32,400 watts. That's 43 horsepower. It must be able to deliver that for a VERY short period of time or there's some other factor I don't know about. I was a math major but I've never spent time trying to understand the numbers with this stuff and it's been a long time since I did any non-trivial math. Is it phase angle related? i=90 r=4 v = ir = 360 w = 360*90 = 32,400 1hp = 746 watts. so, 90 amps into 4 ohms is 43.43 hp. |
According to audioadvisor specs the JC5 has a max of 90 amps/channel. I tend to look at the size of the transformer and it has 1.7kva which is pretty darn huge. https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAHAJC5 |
Todd - the doubling down spec proves the amp is not current limited. This amp is technically current limited (doesn't double down), but the current specs are so high as to be plenty strong for the job. I think I read that it is rated into "short term 1.5 ohm loads", and the output stage delivers enormous current. As (perhaps prof?) someone said earlier: at some point enough current is enough. A full lab analysis would be nice, but John Curl and Parasound have stellar reputations. sandy - can you get any more information regarding the 2 ohm behavior of this amp? |
sandydennis11 Thank You for the prelim report on the JC5. The manufacturer specs look incredible to state the least. No doubt that this power amp will become a modern classic. A few years ago I spent some time w/ the HCA-3500 and it is a beast as well. Looking forward to more reports as you massage this amp into your system/room. Happy Listening! |
I know John Ellison over on audio asylum uses the parasound A21 with his 3.7s. It's a really powerful amp for $2,500. https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=speakers&n=361836&highlight=thiel+3+7&r=&a... |
We have a company out here that takes all the pain out of packing and shipping big speakers. They work with the Museums in SF, so they are the best and of course expensive. Would not trust any other movers. At least 2grand to ship to east coast. And of course money seems not to be an object here in the home of Facebook, Google etc. so selling used equipment is a bit of a struggle. |
sandy, I put up mine favouring local sale, but it was actually easier to sell them non-locally as I got a lot of interest from people all over. As it was made clear in my ad hat buyer pays shipping everyone inquiring knew this and many wanted to arrange that the speakers were shipped to them. So in a way I see the willingness to ship speakers should open up the number of offers. Most people wouldn’t expect shipping to be included in the prIce. All that said, I’m done buying/selling big speakers as they are a pain to ship. |
