One interesting aspect of external crossovers, is that so many aspects in the cabinet are devoted to vibration management. Gluing the parts to the board impinges on thermal stability, but if left unglued, they rattle and buzz and introduce microphonics. Out of the box, that aspect is not a problem. Also, a major limit to directionality of coils is their position in the driver magnetic fields. That goes away too. And the heat thing is big; the enclosure keeps getting hotter, whereas the EXO self-cools. And two-sided boards become practical for isolation of resistors from caps. You get the picture.
SDL - I love the basement idea. But also, these EXOs will be in presentable cabinets of their own. I can’t help it, I was born that way.
Tomic - I have reverted to point to point on masonite - no printed circuits. When rebuilding Beetle’s 2.4s (late / Chinese, on PCBs) we noted coils with up to (perhaps) 20% variation from spec. Those changes were required to re-balance considering the capacitive coupling to the PCB traces. I prefer to keep the coupled capacitance separate from the inductance. I am also at greater liberty to manage the layout to avoid parallel leads and/or bring them to contact and twist to virtually eliminate self-capacitance.
I am loving the audition material selection. By randomizing it via the next album alphabetically, I have reduced the tendency to design for only the best audiophile material. I learn as much from ordinary or substandard cuts as I do from great cuts. However, anyone is welcome to send the Chesky catalog or other great stuff.
Eric - you are most welcome to share your turbulent / laminar flow ideas if you wish, either here or via PM. I have a setup that works, but might be significantly improved. I cover the baffle with F11 pure wool felt at 1/8 or 1/4", covered with the finest Ultrasuede Fine fabric. The drivers and bezels are covered with a stretchy version of USF. The US surface fibers are so fine as to be moved by the pressure - shear waves. The effect is lovely. I am now working with an aerospace engineer with a technology patent for surface flow dynamics management for spacecraft re-entry.
No end to the fun.
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tomthiel,
Thanks for the interesting update. As an owner of a pair of 2.2s, I think this model represents a great place to start on the upgrade path.
The use of an external xo makes a lot of sense, both for practical and sonic reasons. My 2.2s are on a carpeted wood floor with an unfinished basement space below them. I could easily run an umbilical cord through the floor and place a xo box in the basement underneath each speaker. That would be very cool!
When you can, please continue to post upgrade updates for the xo, the cabinet bracing, and the vibration management efforts.
Keep up the impressive work!!!
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Tom - thank you for mentioning the reference tracks you are using as well !!!! Music is after all the point !!!! |
I would encourage isolation for the external filters and for Tom no wiring between input terminals and heavy curved traces on boards.
btw we did external filters on some KEF Kit Cantatas circa 1984 ish but also did aircore so were unable to understand impact of single variable change - needless to say those B-139 sang !!! |
Tom so glad you have discovered your condition and are getting some relief, I find many carry a hidden burden - May yours be light or lighten - I know I am blessed with excellent care in a world where many have none. |
Morning all :-) @jafant the ancient Labrador is a constant companion and music lover even while feigning sleep and disinterest. Yes maintaining three systems ( really 6 ) and not have them turn into museums is a challenge but one I greatly enjoy and TRY to learn something new each day ! |
Well, Tom, you have given me some ideas how to explore the difference between the active digital xo and the original passive xo of the 3.5. I'll keep the original xo external and begin with comparing the woofer only, with and without the eq, and compare it to the various digital active xo and eq settings. Thanks
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Beetle - problem is I don’t drink coffee. Proper number is -0003 is the reference A. Good catch. How’s the coffee?
There are plenty of good reasons for an external XO. But it is tweaky, difficult and would put off many people. In the case of the 2.2, there isn’t a good option to squeeze best parts into the interior spaces. And the merits are likely to be substantial.
But to your Oy! issue, this problem might be peculiar to this model. The general opinion seems to be that the 2.2 is more mellow, easy, forgiving, and with a bigger bass than other Thiel speakers. Some people say it’s the only Thiel they can tolerate. I had speculated that we thought our first passive radiator somehow coupled with rooms "better" than anticipated, giving that full-bottom presentation. But it doesn’t measure "full"; it stacks up quite nicely with the 3.5 and 3.6 that I have here - matching the specified target roll off point without any bloat or other measured anomalies.
John Atkinson used the 2.2 for years as his own system reference. He commented in his Stereophile review how the passive radiator produced a "hard bottoming" relative to the CS2 port’s "soft chuffing" at volume. He said he eventually gave them up because they just wouldn’t produce loud enough bass for him. I can’t visualize how the passive would hit hard - it is made of 2 large, soft surrounds on the back and front of a semi-soft foam plug. ??? So maybe this "splatting", "generalized low end" and "easy mellowness" of the 2.2 are all attributable to these layout and overload characteristics which I am addressing with the EXO.
So, just sit tight regarding your potential need to tweak this problem on your 2.4s; by the time I get to working on the 2.4, we’ll know a lot more. I’m looking forward to picking up the pair I scored on Long Island - when it gets safer.
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I disassembled one (original prototype # -0004)
cabinet, removed the crossover and wired only the woofer to the input
terminal. The other (-0003) was left as a reference with the internal XO
and woofer intact, but with the midrange and tweeter disconnected. I
built the woofer section for -0004 by the new layout while using all the
original parts in the original orientations. No upgrades, changes or
replacements to confuse the issues.
. . .
#-0004
reference "A" exhibited splatting on every bass+drum hit. It would be
attributed to amp clipping or passive radiator and/or woofer bottoming -
overload / or just plain too loud for the material. But I didn't turn
it down. On -0003 external XO "B", those same hits were audible, but not
extreme, in fact they played more like "hard punch" than distortion. . . . Of extreme interest is that speaker A
sounded like a woofer, somewhat woofy, lacking the detail one would get
from the midrange and tweeter. Speaker B sounded like a full-range
presentation; subjectively it was satisfying on its own terms. I had to
check to make sure I hadn't somehow left the midrange or tweeter
connected. I hadn't.
G'morning Tom Either my coffee hasn't kicked in or your speaker numbering is flipped from one paragraph to the next. Regardless, it sounds like you heard a *massive* improvement "simply" by moving to an external crossover. Oy! I am supposed to be done with my mods!!!LOL FWIW, one of my all-time top 4-5 speakers is the Avalon Ascent, possibly the only external XO speaker I've heard. |
Hi @tomthiel
Sounds like you have a lot of work but all of it is engaging and creative so I am sure you are well motivated.
I did some experimenting a while ago with coils and conductors and discovered how easy it was to have a coil couple via capacitance to traces underneath it. Wonder if you are running into that as well.
Best of luck,
Erik
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tomthiel
2nd Note:
Recorded music is more important now than ever. Have fun!
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Last week I read and watched a program describing this Neuronal Overload syndrome. Yes, it is a real medical diagnosis. The subject (person) could not tolerate any EMF/RMF stimulation from simple household appliances, cellular, internet, the list went on.
Very rare in the global population at this time. I suspect as the entire world attempts to go, full-on cellular/wifi, many more will suffer.
There is something to be said for living far away from the grid, especially, in places like New York City. Good to read that a provider was able to help you beat this dangerous condition.
Thank You for the time travel back into 1975. As always, the history lesson was informative and valuable as you take those mental notes into application today(2020).
After the 2.2, which model(s) are on your overhaul radar?
Happy Listening!
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Thiel is considered by many to be a small signal transducer. It works best on vocal and/or small ensemble work. I agree and chalk that up to broad range requirements for overlapping drivers. OK, fair enough.
I have been dreaming in the way-back machine. I remember product development sessions back to the beginning. Come with me to 1975 at the Georgetown Road Compound, developing the 01 and 02. For nightly listening sessions, the speaker under test was placed in mono on a stand in a lovely-sounding room previously described here. The crossover network looked like a bird's nest in free space. No board, lots of space. We hung it from a ceiling hook by twine to some fixed parts, usually the heavy inductors. Many of the parts were clipped in with roach clips. Jim knew the circuits so well that he could make flying changes during music while capsulating what the change did. In an hour session we would compare a half dozen variables for him to take back to his night-time labfest. We reviewed graphs and compared notes at breakfast.
One ever-present outcome was that the finalized product always suffered from the crossover being bedded down onto a board and put in the cabinet. We always noted it and lived with it. About a month ago, a rabbit hole led to this particular warren by way of a remembrance dream. In the early years, I reviewed and journaled all service and repairs. It was not unusual to get speakers with burned resistors and even charred masonite boards. (No fire because of limited oxygen in the sealed cabinets.) I recognize thermal distortion as an avenue for improvement, and the 10 watt vs 25 watt resistor choice discussed here led to some experiments. Under musical load, resistors get hot enough to burn, and coils can get hot enough to unwind if not mechanically bound. That's serious. Resistance and quality of conductivity change with temperature. Beware of dynamic distortion
On a different progression, I have mentioned my personal health journey that has now been greatly resolved. The root problem is neuronal overload, and the primary cause is exposure to electromagnetic fields. I now own various EMF meters and devices and have mitigated much of the EMF pollution that put me in mortal danger. I, of course, now point those meters at everything, and was amazed at the soup around the 2.2 when rocking. Serious levels.
Put two and two together to equal redesigning the 2.2 crossover into a three dimensional package with more space, separation of resistors from other components, and physical separation from the drivers, in its own enclosure on a 4' umbilical. By the way, the package seems elegant to me, and in visual harmony with the cabinets. I'll post a photo when I get something presentable. For now let's talk about the woofer. It has its own board, positioned vertically with both sides exposed to air. All resistors are on the back to form an updraft cooling chimney, with the other two (midrange and tweeter) boards oriented similarly with all resistors facing inward with air inlets on the bottom and a screen on top. No metal anywhere. The rig is big enough to accommodate the largest of the CSA / MRA, etc. caps, as well as anything smaller. In the present case, I disassembled one (original prototype # -0004) cabinet, removed the crossover and wired only the woofer to the input terminal. The other (-0003) was left as a reference with the internal XO and woofer intact, but with the midrange and tweeter disconnected. I built the woofer section for -0004 by the new layout while using all the original parts in the original orientations. No upgrades, changes or replacements to confuse the issues.
Yesterday I began listening and today I continued with a long comparison followed by a set of measurements. My measurements are, sadly, still all sweep based via FuzzMeasure. Their impulse information is extrapolated mathematically, not from actual transient impulses. I'll get there eventually and get more insightful information when I do. Let's say that the two speakers via my available measuring techniques look to be virtually identical. There are no observable differences in frequency response, group delay, phase plots or waterfalls. My technique is to listen to each speaker in mono, placed beside the other; and then measure in place so that the mic hears what I hear in the same position in the same room. Then I swap right for left and listen and measure again. I am confident that I am measuring the speakers with no meaningful room noise or equipment differences.
So here goes. We have these two matched speakers with the difference being XO layout and removal from the enclosure. The test takes me back to Georgetown Road over 40 years ago to hear that delicate, lovely spatiousness before buttoning it all in the box. One recording was Pink Floyd's remastered "Take it Back" single which is both layered and detailed along with dense, dynamic and driving. #-0004 reference "A" exhibited splatting on every bass+drum hit. It would be attributed to amp clipping or passive radiator and/or woofer bottoming - overload / or just plain too loud for the material. But I didn't turn it down. On -0003 external XO "B", those same hits were audible, but not extreme, in fact they played more like "hard punch" than distortion. And all the nuance of the band and backing vocals hummed right along. Other audition material included the entire album of Patty Larkin's Stranger's World and Stereophile's Test record 3 cuts 3 and 9 - very detailed, dynamic bass-based work. Of extreme interest is that speaker A sounded like a woofer, somewhat woofy, lacking the detail one would get from the midrange and tweeter. Speaker B sounded like a full-range presentation; subjectively it was satisfying on its own terms. I had to check to make sure I hadn't somehow left the midrange or tweeter connected. I hadn't.
For me, today is a game changer. All the other upgrades have provided various levels of insight, even excitement. And their inclusion has always seemed contingent on effective budget analysis for most contribution per affordability. But this change is non-negotiable. It changes the league from small-source vocal ensemble speaker to throw anything at me.The persistent motivation had been how to shoe-horn all those large upgrade parts into very small spaces in the very well-braced 2.2; as well as how to then simultaneously address the re-bracing that would improve performance. There simply isn't room in there to do it all. I first took out the XO to install my bracing upgrade for testing. But I won't go down that rabbit hole yet. This performance upgrade is totally engaging. Next I'll implement the midrange and tweeter sections of the External XO. By the way, Resistor 1 and 2 got hot enough to burn and coil 1 got pretty warm - all mounted on stand-offs on a vertical board in open air. Imagine the environment in the sealed cabinet with a woofer within spitting distance producing its heat and EMFs.
Now it's back to the drawing board to re-orient those two resistors for better convection cooling.
Nice to visit. Thanks again for all the help and inspiration many of you have provided.
TT
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theaudiotweak
Good to see you again. I look forward in reading more about your development and research in wave interference as well.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You! for the update. Yes, you have put in quite the hours attempting the next evolution of our beloved loudspeakers.
Knowing a pair of speakers is paramount and will serve well as a frame of reference. The Panel members who own 2.2 models are lucky to receive upgrades, firstly, upon official release.
Have fun and enjoy the Music!
Happy Listening!
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Always fascinated with vibrations we can sense and hear but have no method yet to test for or measure. Working on an applique to surfaces to reduce shear wave interference on most any surface. My favorites being speakers and cabinets and musical instruments.Tom D |
Guys - I would like to provide a report of general status and recent work. As many of you know, I am deeply immersed in redevelopment work. That has led to many rabbit holes, each of those leading to its own warren. The possibilities are limitless and cannot all be addressed. I have taken cues from many of you here as well as in off forum interactions. Thank you. Although I have accumulated and surveyed many models, I am concentrating on the model CS2.2 because I have 2 pairs and know it so intimately.
This current work is informed via my role as manufacturing developer, subsequent use in recording evaluation and mastering work, reviewers comments and general feedback over the years, as well as issues and characterestics upgraded in subsequent models and my speculations on causes. In other words, I am paying attention to a broad range of inputs.
I can't go into all the details, but I can say that there are multiple, parallel performance paths, each of which seems worthwhile. These paths all lead to more clarity, harmonic rightness, spatiality and ease. It is hard to believe that so much can be made so much better in a speaker where these areas are already strengths. I tip my hat to Jim as a designer and to the human auditory processing power. We make sense, good, satisfying sense of pulsating air pressure to imagine full blown music in our minds - on pretty sketchy data streams. Amazing really. That's why MP-3 and Wave Radios can work as well as they do. But fundamentally cleaner data streams make for more thorough immersion in the imagined music.
My newly developed MO includes taking the next title off the shelf on its own terms and relating to it as the producers hoped. That provides a radically different perspective from taking a few well known tunes and perfecting their translation. Let me state that I am not seeing any meaningful changes in frequency balance while hearing significantly different musical information and involvement. I find this phenomenon fascinating.
Let's jump to a persistent, real, global problem with Thiel speakers.
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prof
I can guarantee the positive attributes of a CS 2.7 loudspeaker as well.
Well reported. Joseph Audio is close, yet, not a Thiel Audio.
Happy Listening!
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All -
Memorial Day: Remembrance of our fallen Heroes.
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I can guarantee that if Eric heard my 2.7s he wouldn't find them bright.They are clear, rich and full.
In fact I put my 2.7s back in my system months ago just as a change from my Joseph Perspectives and have been so satisfied I haven't put the Perspectives back in the system. :-)
(I will eventually though, that's why I like having more than one pair of speakers).
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Rob - you have stirred the soup. It's still cooking . . .
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Tom & Beetlemania
Thank you for experimenting with the parallel speaker cable configuration , using Tom's finding I moved my cables
from 1 1/2" to 4"s ( as far apart as possible ) and heard or perceived a difference in front to back sound staging .
I repositioned my speakers to take advantage of the change .
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Blue - sometimes the least expensive route is to repair yours.
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blue222
Welcome! Good to see you here.
Consider another Integra receiver, if you like its sound.
Otherwise, consider a Creek or Music Hall integrated amp.
This is a sonic match, especially, for a small room.
I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes and system.
Happy Listening!
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@blue222 - You're asking a lot. I'm thinking your best bet is to buy a plain power amplifier and run your computer headphone out to it using RCA cables and an adapter. This and the comparable items are decent options I think. Nuforce is supposed to be great for the money and is close to your price point. The Dayton amp in the comparables below for 199 has been around forever so I think it must be a solid value. For <300 I don't think you're going to find anything with fairly high power and decent sound. Maybe if you go used. I think you could find something that will be fine at low to moderate volume. https://www.amazon.com/NuForce-STA120-170watt-250watt-Stereo/dp/B010BJJ72Q |
Hi, I'm a new member to this site. I bought my Thiel CS2.2 speakers in 1992 and they've been great, but my Integra receiver (DTR 5.5) is having trouble. I'm not wanting to spend much on a new receiver because I don't know how long I'll keep the Thiels...we might downsize to a smaller home, plus I'd prefer a simpler system. Don't laugh, but do you think I could find a receiver that would work with the Thiels AND play my CD collection (which is on my iMac computer) for under $300? |
Happy Memorial Day Weekend! All |
jon_5912
Thank You for the kind words. I have had the good fortune of military and private sector training which prepared me for the daily taskers at issue.
Thiel Audio is most certainly worth noticing I feel as well. After all, one is hard-pressed to find a better performing loudspeaker. It bears repeating, the Timbre, to my ears is so right.
Happy Listening!
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@jafant we're entirely different species of humans who appreciate what Thiel was trying to do. It's worth noticing I think. You and I are on opposite ends of a spectrum. I don't mean to be critical or demeaning at all. You have something I do not. You have a unique ability to interact positively with people. |
jon_5912
I have spent some audition time w/ Wilson Audio Sasha and Sophia models. Both were musically satisfying. At this price -point, not as articulate and musical (timbre) as a Thiel loudspeaker.
To date, I have not auditioned Magico.
Happy Listening! |
tomic601
Agreed, Alan is very generous with his operation. How do you find music time with 3 systems? Great pics including your Labrador.
Happy Listening! |
unsounds
As above, true statement.
Happy Listening! |
@jafant - yes Alan at HiFi Buys has a good sounding room, it’s before my time but at one time he was ( Audio Alternative) a Thiel dealer :-)
funny you mention it, Alan gave over his high end room to myself, Spouse and Labrador for 8 hours one Saturday to choose a power amp to drive 5A and eventually 7’s. You can see a picture of that in my Poverty Bay system pages.
fun |
So some of those “poor man drivers” might not measure as well in isolation, but actually measure better in application
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@Jafant - I agree about the cost effective implementation. There's a lot of value in making something people don't need to be rich to own. That approach is why this thread exists. There'll never be a Wilson or magico equivalent. So many people have been able to own and appreciate Thiel products. So few Wilson or magico. People with widely varying backgrounds, tastes, budgets, etc. own and appreciate Thiels. Oil sheiks and stock brokers own the vanity brands. |
tomthiel
I will take the poor man's implementation (Jim's design) every time.
Pure magic in his loudspeakers!
Happy Listening! |
@erik_squires, I am truly trying not to be petty, but, though the thread was about specific models, you posted. “Thiel’s”, not CS2’s, and you also posted “anytime”. It’s not the only time you’ve posted a less than favorable perspective on Thiel’s, As far as I’m concerned that’s fine; your entitled to your opinion. I tend to remember the opinions of those I’ve come to respect. Peace. |
On pistonic for less...$$$$$ that is indeed the quest - part of the current issue is affordable core material ( air is free, balsa is not ) CF skins in prepreg, machining, autoclave time and then integrating it all into a top notch basket/magnet/motor and pole piece assy - aka Scanspeak ....
but remarkable that it is less than $750k paper midrange...
fun, something to do.... |
tomic601
Precisely- articulate and musical (timbre) are the exact characteristics that sold me on the CS 2.4 vs. Vandy 3A signature in the same room, same gear. To date, I have not heard the 5A/5A carbon(signature).
I did hear the Quattro and Treo and these two models do not better CS 2.4 through CS 3.7 to my ears. Model Seven is unreal and could very well be the absolute sound (custom room must accompany these loudspeakers). Hifi Buys Atlanta has such a room.
Happy Listening! |
And Vandy 7’s and the matching amplifiers, yes I know how spoiled ( blessed I am ) |
When the freakin pandemic is over, y’all who visit Seattle can hear some 2.3 that are lovely |
@Unsound While I apologize for the confusion, I didn’t think I needed to make a caveat when the OP clearly established the boundaries of the conversation in the thread you posted as being about the Thiel CS2, which was reviewed at least as early as 1985: https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1085thiel/index.htmland the Vandersteen 2c which was reviewed at least by 1989: https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/914/index.htmlIf you wanted to know if I meant to review all Vandersteen and all Thiel speakers forever, then you should have asked the question as such and I would have said "no, no I do not." If you wish to hold me to an editorial standard of writing complete monologues each time I post on this hobby site then we can discuss an appropriate salary. Best, E |
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Vandersteen’s carbon drivers are, IMO, the best audio drivers ever. If I win the powerball, I won’t look any further than his model Seven.
The 2.7/3.7 coax and ribbed diaphragms were a significant step towards the same goal Vandersteen has with respect to pistonic behavior. I’ve long considered Jim Thiel designed drivers to be among the best. Who knows what he would have produced by now. But Tom shared with me the concept of the CS7.3 and it would have a new pinnacle in the Thiel line . . . 10 years ago.
We audiophiles are fortunate to have had JT and RV bring their talents to our listening rooms with gear that we can actually afford. That their designs compete with or outperform others at multiple times the price is a testament to their abilities and real-world sensibilities.
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I haven't spent much time listening to carbon drivers per se, but I have to say that overall I've always ended up preferring composite cones, anything from the Focal W construction to the ScanSpeak sliced paper to simple fiberglass/resin construction from Peerless.
Certainly I can say that I like composites a great deal more than I do the top ceramics.
Still, there's a lot more to a speaker than a driver material and it's' focusing on these single items which leads to out of proportion spending and myths about specific speakers. The system is what matters, but the drivers are always fun to talk about.
Best,
E
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Just a reminder I do have and greatly appreciate my 2.3 + in Cherry - articulate and musical |
Tom - building his own composite airplane led Richard to Balsa and it’s the lightweight stuff with sattelite grade carbon fiber - the tough stuff is end grain bonding in a lightweight resin fiber layup. For background I don’t know the secret and I ran arguably the most advanced composite shop on the planet B-2, F-22 wing, 787 fuselage, development wing... low tech stuff... ha We all have our hard won secrets.,,
creating drivers w breakup far outside the pass Band is one of the holy grail pursuit imo, especially for those who care about time and phase. jim, Richard, Dunlavey- they all got it ! So glad you carry the torch Tom |
Indeed carbon rocks. And I salute Richard Vandersteen all around, and his implementation of carbon on a balsa core in particular. Jim used aluminum on a styrene core - a poor man's implementation of the same concept. And going back to the 2.2 woofer in 1990, Jim mated a shallow curved front cone with a deeper straight rear cone, trapping a sealed air-space between them to approach the same idea. The air is the damping agent and the two cones' resonant behavior is different from each other. The result is quite remarkable.
I would like to hear Richard's latest model 2 iteration. I bet it's not too different from a Thiel 2.2. I could be wrong, but it seems that as time went by, the two brands converged somewhat. It seems that Vandersteen sold as many model 2s as Thiel sold all models combined. He is one for the history books.
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As above, those Vandersteen carbon drivers are incredible.
If Jim were alive today, I suspect, he would have beaten Richard to this incredible, modern, loudspeaker technology.
Happy Listening!
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