So today, just on whim, I decided to move my 2.4’s in my secondary rigs small 12 x 13 room to see how they would fare on the ARC Classic 60 amp/Herron 1a preamp. The amp only has 60 watts a channel, and I thought it would be anemic on the power hungry Thiels.
In short, I was waaay wrong. Not only did the ARC drive it, but 2.4’s sounded better than they ever did with the Parasound A21/BAT preamp combo. The bass was outstanding, but I think that had more to do with the smaller room. Its so good I’ll be moving the Thiel’s permanently in there. And to think I was thinking about selling them.
Anybody else have a similar experience? |
@stspur
The “S” are probably Solens. Those were probably pretty good for their time but the Claritys should be notably better. Pretty cool to see “Thiel” on those resistors just like Tom wrote. Still, I would upgrade those to MRAs, especially if direct feed to the driver. Also, those coils look high quality, again “Acousta-coil” like Tom has written. I would leave those although tempting to try a foil inductor if on direct feed path to midrange or tweeter. As long as you’re in there you should replace all the electrolytics. Ideally switch these to film caps but if space and budget don’t allow at least put in fresh ELs.
$0.02
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thieliste
The DAG is certainly a sonic match for Thiel Audio speakers.
Beauty and Power in a single case. You owe it to yourself to find an audition.
Happy Listening!
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Jafant if you are in NYC go hear Mimas at Johnny Rutan in NJ
and yes the Ayre is fantastic amp |
dhoff01
Excellent! I do believe that you are the first to mix/match Accuphase and Ayre (similar to mix/match Accuphase and Cary). Those are pretty exclusive Audiophile brands. Good to learn that they are a sonic match w/ our beloved Thiel speakers.
Happy Listening!
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stspur
Thank You for the XO update. There are several 3.6 owners on the Panel that can benefit from your upgrade project. Keep up the excellent DIY work!
Happy Listening!
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tomic601
Good to see you again.
Only if I can obtain a demo in Atlanta. I really enjoyed the synergy of Ayre amp and universal player. Very tough to beat.
Happy Listening!
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Just wanted to update you guys on my XO progress with my 3.6s. I removed the woofer and was able to confirm my ability to remove the XO. I originally thought it would be a more laborious process but, fortunately, all seams pretty modular and accessible thanks to the Thiel team's ingenuity. My goal is to have an end result as close to original spec as possible unless an upgraded set of parts would clearly enhance the sound without changing the overall character. To this end, I would like to select parts accordingly. So far I have Claritycaps CSAs and Mills MRA-12s on my list. I do have some hesitation, after reading Tom's historical background on Jim's resistors, to consider leaving them in place if they would stilI be in good working order. I'm also probably going to leave the coils alone. I need some advice on the remaining XO parts which I am unable to identify. Any chance I could get you guys to check out this photo (below) to identify the large yellow capacitors and what their values might be? I couldn't find any markings. Also, beetlemania, I stand corrected that the electrolytic caps are NOT Claritycap SAs as I originally posted. I thought on my first exploration, with bad lighting, that they were. After further investigation, they look similar but have a big "S" printed on them. Any of you guys have an idea what brand they are? Also, in general, which parts would still be worth keeping in place? https://photos.app.goo.gl/bUctYBhfecLYzWdi9 |
Jafant is the Aesthetix Mimas on your audition list ? |
Pops - most of my Lexington time was on Georgetown Road, where we started Thiel Audio, around the corner from the Kentucky Horse Park, where I rode my bike nearly every decent day. Secretariat was exemplary of his Bold Ruler line in being interactive and playful. His grandson that I bred added a dash of mischief. He would do things like untie the girls' shoe laces or pick them up from their belt, and could unlatch a safety gate latch. Lovely and capable family of horses.
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Hi Tom Thiel. Thanks for your insight on the 3.6. Btw, I lived in Lexington in the early 80’s on Georgetown Road a couple of miles from the Horse Park. Nice living and beautiful country.
Lived across the street from a horse farm no surprise. I still have an 8 mm film of Secretariat running towards us while visiting Calumet Farms one day. He came right up to the fence for a nice rub. We were in shock that he was so accessible! |
jafant - they work quite well together. Ayre’s output was measured by Stereophile at 150 ohms (balanced), whereas the Accuphase has a balanced input of 40k. The Ayre was much lower than the Cary, which tested higher than the specs showed (again according to Stereophile).
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If i ever decide to get a pair of 3.7s again i'll most likely try to find a demo Dagostino Momentum S250 stereo amp to drive them.
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dhoff01
Thank You for the update. How do you like the synergy between Accuphase and Ayre?
Happy Listening!
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Hey jafant. Still running much of the same gear. Accuphase A50 for amplification, Ayre P5xe phono pre, and a VPI Aries/Ayre qb9 on the front end. Upgraded the Aries with a new fatboy tonearm and an Airtight PC7. It works for me :) |
dhoff01
Good to see you again. Yes, it has been awhile since I have seen a post by you. Impressive that you switched away from the Cary SLP-05. That particular pre-amp is one of the very best, very popular amongst Audiophiles. While I have never heard the SLP05, I can certainly understand your change to the Ayre Twenty Series- seriously good gear.
What other gear including rounds out your system currently?
Hope that you are well and preparing for Summer.
Happy Listening!
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thieliste
Musical - is the key word that defines Ayre gear. And this is not a bad thing at all. Stay safe out there.
Happy Listening!
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I second thieliste - Ayre matches quite well with Thiel. My local dealer always paired his Thiel 3.7s with an all-Ayre setup and it sounded fantastic. I too have many Ayre components in my system, including a recent change from my Cary SLP-05 to the Ayre KX5 twenty preamp. My 3.7s have never sounded better.
Been awhile since I opened this thread. Looks like I have a lot to catch up on! |
Jafant Ayre AX-5 Twenty is a great match for your 2.4SE, very musical and refined integrated.Hope you can put this system together very soon.
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thieliste
Good to see you here again. Yes, the Ayre AX-5 Twenty, still tops my list.
I will procure this integrated amp very soon. Hope that you will return to a pair of Thiel Audio loudspeakers sooner rather than later.
Happy Listening!
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Hi guys and hello to you jafant, i hope you guys are doing well it's been a while i haven't posted on this thread.@jafant any evolution on your gear search for your CS2.4SE ?Even though i sold my CS 3.7s early this year because i didn't have the funds to purchase the rest of the gear to make them sing they are still one o my all time favorire speakers and who knows if in the future i have the opportunity the build a system, the CS 3.7s will still be in my mind.Meanwhile i enjoy my great headphone rig which is very convenient when you don't have a dedicated room for speaker system.Cheers.
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jazzman7
I was thinking about you as I saw the Blue Note and Village Vanguard landmarks yesterday. Fellow Jazz Hound.
Happy Listening!
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pops
Good to see you today. Hope that you are well and safe in your locale.
Model CS6 is mighty according to pics, indeed.
Happy Listening!
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Pops - nice to see you. I picked up a pair of 3.6s last year and listened, and said wow. Then I measured it and said wow. Then I looked at the crossover and said wow. The 3.6 in 1992 followed the 1990 2.2. For the 3.6, Jim had delved into finite element analysis to make serious refinements to the driver motors to radically lower distortion - and Vifa loved the collaboration. Lots of that stuff is now in broad use.
The 3.6 was the last Thiel product in which I directly participated in the development. After that my work was almost entirely process and capability development for the coming larger products.
That tweeter was developed for the CS5 and trickled down to the 2.2 and 3.6.
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Started with CS .5 in 1996. Targeted and finally acquired 2.4s in 2011. |
Same with me Jafant - heard the 3.6's in the early 90's when they first came out and I was smitten - 25 years later still in my system,
I also own the mighty CS6 but they cannot replace the 3.6!
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ctsooner
My 1st audio encounter w/ Vandersteen dates back to 1995. On that date I auditioned the 2ci or 2ce (I never can remember which iteration came first?). Then, there was the 2Ce/Ci Signature models for further improvement. And the 3A Signature for further advancement in presentation and soundstage.
This was my strongest contender loudspeaker to assemble my next system either ss or tubed gear to compliment.
A fateful audition w/ the Thiel CS 2.4 loudspeaker would change my trajectory forever. The CS 2.4SE provided the icing on a very tasty cake.
Done.
Happy Listening!
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oblgny
I just returned from a quick visit to Manhattan.
Today's adventure was about seeing the Beacon Theater, Blue Note Jazz Club and Village Vanguard. Funny thing- there were flyers on the venue billboards dated back to March. Perhaps I can catch a show next month? The city streets were bustling with pedestrians running/walking.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the upgrade path plans. I know that 3.5 members of the Panel as quite excited as you work your magic. Continue the outstanding progress.
Happy Listening!
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ctsooner
Thank You for the Audio history lesson. Always good to read about growing up in a house filled with music- I did as well.
There is no substitute.
Happy Listening!
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JAFant - you asked about future models in the queue. I have concentrated my efforts on the 2.2. Next I will address the 3/ 3.5. My priorities include rescuing models in danger of obsolescence, and the 3/ 3.5 are geriatric. It will be a big challenge in that the tweeter and midrange are no longer available. But the woofers are strong players and built like tanks. Of great interest to me is the textbook sealed second order low rolloff - tight, quick, clean and musical. I hope to pair that with a matching subwoofer for seriously good low bass.
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Jon - the house photo you shared is in Georgetown proper. Our farm was (and still is) halfway between Lexington and Georgetown where they subdivided the farms into 10 acre farmlets around 1900. The farm victorian was built in 1903 and was quite deteriorated when I bought it and over the years restored it to fine fettle. Good place. Horses were my first love, and I bred my daughter's salt-of-the-earth pony to a son of Secretariat for her Pony Club mount. Wildfire spent his lift there, and it spawned an upstart audio company. There's always more back story.
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I'm up in Berlin. Half way between Hartford and New Haven. Live on a pretty lake. As for meeting him, I can't remember, but it was eon's ago. I know it was twice as those were the only times he was up here from what I had been told. Heck, I know I met Paul Klipsch as well as David Hafler and a few other top designers back in the very early 70's. The store in Newington was a very well known one back in the day. It's how I learned about audio. Dad, who didn't make a lot, took me there nad we came home with a modest system of a Pioneer receiver, house made 3 way speakers (that were very good and how stores sold back in the day) and a Garrard TT. I bought my own system in '73 with Bar Mitzvah money. Yamaha YP 211 TT with the top Grado cartridge (Grado was in the store when I made my upgrade from the Garrard that came with it and told them to throw in the cartridge. As most know, those all cost them about the same to make and they had a major uncharge.). I too had the same speakers as Dad had. I rocked out with my drums in the basement while mom complained, lol.
Joe, the owner was a named big band director and most of the audio elite would come visit him and he would always let me know who and when. That's why I got to go in the basement and listen to the whole Klipsch line with the Phase Linear and Crown gear with top TT's, but I don't even remember which ones, lol. I got a few of my HS buddy's to purchase systems through Joe's place, even though we had the shlock shops too. Most got the baby Klipsch's (forget the name but they are in the classic line) with their larger Yamaha receivers. Sorry to for the history, lol. I've loved this hobby and the people in it for most of my life.
I think it's why I get jaded at times and why I am always open to auditions to keep learning. I know it's hard to believe, but I didn't love Vandersteen's until about 10 years ago when I went to the closest dealer in NJ to buy a new set of Pro Ac's D series and walk out of their knowing I was going to purchase a pair of Treo's once I saved enough. I didn't even want to audition them, which was unlike me, but I was there with family as my cousin was getting married and he lives in Verona.
Theil and Vandersteen's are so much alike, but sound so different. I think it's the time alignment etc.. that my ears really appreciate hearing. Both designers to me, are as important to audio as anyone else. |
ctsooner
which city/town in CT are you located?
Happy Listening!
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oblgny
My pleasure. I have been in worse circumstances and places during military service. Still, this is my occupation/profession.
The hope is that you guys will catch a break for the rest of 2020.
If not, the Cavalry, will mobilize again to assist. The locals really support this hospital- no question about it. Strong Work!
Good to read that you are enjoying the Belles integrated.
Will it reach a sonic match for the 3.5 (your fave Thiel speaker)?
Happy Listening!
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ctsooner
Thank You for sharing your meet-and-greet with Jim Thiel.
What were the circumstances? CES? Audio Show?
What year?
Happy Listening!
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obglny
Always good to see you here my Brother. Yes, this little section of the Long Island City has been very kind to us. Slowly but surely the local bars and eateries are opening, certainly during lunch hour into the early evening. Not sure about late evening?
Agreed, I was informed about the shopping malls- makes sense as L.I. has quite the real estate for it.
I will contact you very soon. Is Audio Den open for auditions?
Happy Listening!
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Tom Tweak - these leads are new to me, and fascinating. They are working with ideas like mine, mine being those of an interested, intuitive amateur. So, what can you tell us about your 'energy room'? Sounds fascinating.
Tom T
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Didn't know you guys were islanders. I'm up in CT. Would love to meet up when things clear up, lol. I've never really been to Long Island other than Fischers island via boats and JFK, lol.
I usually dislike the NYC dealers as everyone has been kind of a dick to me.
My buddy Johnny Rutan (Audio Connection) sells the Belles. I love the line. The new Aries Integrated is one of the great buys in all of audio. David knows what he's doing. I can easily see an amp like that on a Theil. That would be a good match I assume. |
Jafant...
You’re pretty much smack dab in the heart of central
Nassau County’s major shopping district. Back in the day, within walking distance of where you’re working, there was Audio Exchange in the mall, a Crazy Eddie about three miles east of you, and a Rabson’s Audio as well if I’m not mistaken.
And by the way, thanks for helping us “Lawnguylanders” out in the thick of all this. Much appreciated. (The quotes kind of lend you some idea of how some of us speak. Or tawk, in case you haven’t put your finger on it.)
Under different circumstances you could easily walk to a couple of decent Portuguese restaurants nearby that I’ve been to meself. There’s also any number of decent pubs within minutes of where you are. I grew up in Long Beach -about 10 or so miles south of your current location.
NYC is a 30 minute train ride west from Mineola, but unfortunately all the audio stores ain’t open. Yet. Ain’t much open ‘round those parts or my parts, for that matter.
I’ve been consuming the hours by drawing, and listening to Qobuz like it’s going outta business. One of the coolest things about Qobuz is diving deep into the labels. (Each release contains the label info and once you click you’re in the catalogue.) Kind of a trip down memory lane for those of us who could tell that Capitol vinyl had those orange/yellow swirls in the center. While they are a few things to nitpick about a few quirks in Qobuz, it by far exceeds iTunes. It stacks up pretty damn well in comparison to Tidal as well.
I still have the Belles 250i integrated... |
Hi Jafant. it's great to be posting a bit again. Jim was a neat guy. I was blessed to meet him a few times. The local dealer was the biggest Theil fan. he still owns a pair of the big ones. I think he finally got rid of the new ones though. They were a bit too hot for my ears in the 90's, but I realized later that was because they ran them with the wrong electronics. I have heard them with the larger Mark Levinson mono's in the past and really enjoyed that. They also looked nice. Heck, I also liked the JSE sloped speakers back in the 90's too, Hmmm. I own Vandy Quatro's that are nothing like a 'box' speaker cabinet either...trend???? ha |
jafant
You’re right in the thick of “Lawnguyland” in case you’ve noticed some of the local inflections. If the circumstances were different you could easily pop into places serving some decent Portuguese fare - there’s a couple within walking distance of the hospital you’re working in that I’ve been to meself.
And thanks for that, by the way.
You’re also near to one of the island’s major shopping districts |
ctsooner
Good to see you again. Thank You for the kind words surrounding our thread. It is never too late to convert on a pair of Thiel Audio loudspeakers. Have fun in this hobby!
Happy Listening!
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What an amazing thread guys. Thanks to all who are posting such cool stuff. I love to learn and am open minded (regardless of how I may come off when posting).
I have always loved CF and it's usage. When Richard saw some walking sticks I own (I use a rollator for most of my walking), he noticed the same CF he uses for his drivers. It's a very expensive and highly specialized CF that isn't as easy to use as most of the CF on the market.
Materials matter as much as implementation. Caps and inductors are next in line from what many designers have shared over the years. Cool thread guys. Thanks. |
You can also read up and use the Bud Purvine EnABL method for which he was granted U.S. patent # 5,304,746..filed 1991. The Purvine patent originally described a method to reduce or eliminate standing waves now better described as transverse, or shear waves or a type called a Raleigh wave. The EnABL used for years by many online can be applied to both sides of a surface including those of a speaker box and a speaker cone . Shear waves have 2 polarities and can only travel thru solids or on solids. Their polarity will change direction when it meets another different conductive material or geometric boundary .This process repeats itself until there is no signal contained or there is no longer a conductive material. The shear waves generate an odd affect on boundary edges that join up and meet, almost seems to be a fluttering of energy that will wrap around the front of a baffle and carry over to a portion of the joining side. A corner in a glass house would be an extreme example of how a surface conducts sound vibrations. You can apply the EnABL method to drivers, cabinets, turntable platters ,walls and probably a race car..endless surfaces and materials. There are other methods available to reduce interfering energy on many different products. By doing so there sounds to be an increase of effiencey. Exactly as in the Debbie Miles patent she describes a method to reduce shear wave interference in the floor surface boundary of a string instrument. This method is easily heard as an increase in volume and power while at the same time reducing the amount of energy needed to make any given sound. Debbie likes to call this a reduction of interfering energy.
The shear waves travel in and on the materials, the air that lays against these solid materials vibrates and relates a character of sound to our ears, some could be described as dry or woody or glassey and tinny each depending on the material, its shape and boundary . All materials have a different shear velocity among other descriptions this is why lead sounds different than brass or glass, wood or beryllium. A reduction of a polarity of shear on and in a large surface in motion such as a room wall will improve laminar flow like we use in The Energy Room. We originally applied these same methods to our complete speaker system. As Debbie says that reduces interfering energy. Tom D.
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We achieved natural laminar flow on some tricky bits of the 787.... I could tell ya how but if I told ya how, well.... you know the rest...,
two layer boards :-) but for a mod upgrade the point to point is an excellent choice. |
Eric - you are most welcome to share your turbulent / laminar flow ideas if you wish, either here or via PM. @tomthiel Um, was this for me, or is there another Eric in this thread? I don't remember saying anything remotely related to fluid dynamics. :) Best, E |
tomthiel
Long Island, will be open for business very soon. Health conditions are improving on weekly basis. Not certain about the other 4 boroughs?
Happy Listening!
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