Thiel Owners

@thoft, Do you have the cube eq for the Kefs?

At this point I’m just getting the Aragon 2004 for the kef 104/2. I’m debating on whether I should search for the 3.7 or or wait till next year stick with the 3.5 and get the Aragon 8008 for the 3.5. If I get the 3.7 at a later time I’ll sell the 2004 move the 8008 to the kef then get a krell. 

@thoft, Mondial claims it increases power into 2 and 1 Ohms, but it won’t say by how much or for how long. Keep in mind that when an amplifier is doubling down power with each halving of impedance, that typical speakers are decreasing sensitivity by 3dB with each halving of impedance as well. Which at high power levels can lead to frequency nonlinearities, increased distortion levels, and perhaps even potentially driver damaging clipping. if the amp can’t keep up.
That their 8008 blew it’s fuse after a short period of high level output into 2 Ohms during independent testing suggests there’s a chance that their claim might be little more than a parlor trick. If they can’t maintain it, they’re not likely to spec it. Which is why one often sees things like "stable" or for "musical transients". Which often means that it can do it, but not maintain it for more than a brief moment.
Notice the specs for:

https://www.krellhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Krell_FPB_CAST_SERIES_Owners_Reference.pdf

or

https://gryphon-audio.dk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Tech.-Spec.-ALL-Products-05032020.pdf

The mighty Gryphon’s bigger amps spec’d to 1 Ohm, the smaller amps (and unusually even their integrated!!!) spec’d down to 2 Ohms.

or

https://dandagostino.com/products/momentum-mono.php

This is what one wants for the low impedance Thiels.

Not all models from all these brands measure up the same.

The reason why I asked of the Aragon on 2 ohms is this http://www.aragonav.com/2004-mkii-mondial

papasmove
Welcome! Good to see you here. Thank You for your introduction and owning a pair  of 7.2 loudspeakers. Very cool that you procured the Krell FPB 600 amp.  Stay tuned until one of our DIY experts chimes in to address your concrete baffle query.
Happy Listening!

scubabird
Welcome! Good to see you here. I would say seek out a Vandersteen 3A Signature loudspeaker. This will closely mimic a Thiel CS 2.4, CS 2.7 or CS 3.7 model. Take the time to read throught this thread for additional information on older/vintage loudspeakers. Well annotated per members of the Panel.

Happy Listening!

Funny thing is. They sound perfectly fine. Brilliant actually would the problem lay in the crossover?

Wow guys - I take a break and you all go at it! Unsound alludes to a "problem" in such a long, detailed thread as this one. Lots of information would be redundant for regulars, but helpful to new participants. I appreciate it when someone directs others to where they might access the discussion.

Regarding concrete repair - look for expansive grout at Lowes, etc.

Paradisecom - congratulations on your CS2s. In many ways that is the seminal Thiel design; it took the concepts generated in the model 3 and refined them for a smaller space and source material at a lower price. The CS2 sold more units than any other Thiel product ever - over 11,000 units. All the Renaissance work I am doing on the CS2.2 will be retrofittable to the CS2. Regarding black laminate - what a trip. I wanted to bring a polished lacquer piano black finish into an affordable form. It became sadly clear that was impossible. Material flaws, along with susceptibility to damage in production and/or shipping and use led to price increases and unhappy customers. It remained in the stable at an upcharge, but we never promoted it due to its difficulties.

Thoft - you have a problem. My 3.5s measure 4.8 ohms DC resistance which seems right for their performance impedance curve. Rob Gillum can help you troubleshoot. If it comes to replacing parts, consider the upgrades we’ve been talking about here.

Scubabird - Rob’s answer #3 invalidates part of my previous response about Thiel revisions. Sounds like 3.7 revision 2 was to recalibrate the changes made by migrating to PC boards. BTW: I agree with Rob on liking P to P on Masonite better than PC boards. Go to Rob for any problem - he has made and repaired every aspect of every Thiel product since 1988.

Regarding the Benchmark AHB2 amps. I would appreciate public discussion here driving Thiels. They are in my stable and your collective opinion would help me calibrate their performance compared with other high-performance amps, which I don’t have access to.

Papasmove - good score on Jim’s Krell FPB-600. I was your auction under-bidder - dropped out because I have no business owning that. FWIW, that amp was routinely upgraded. Dan D would send Jim the latest tweaks for his feedback. Rob G was prepared to spend up to $10K for it, but deferred to me who dropped out. Good score.

Back to the lab. I’m getting close to tri-amping, bi-amping, single amping comparison on the 2.2s.

I do want to know my thiel 3.5 sit at 3.0 ohms when they don’t have an amp hooked up or nothing. Does this indicate an issue within?

@scubabird
I think the KEF's are a bit like the Thiel's with the same type of tweeter and midrange combination (some similar sonic characteristics). I went from the Thiel SCS4 to the KEF LS50 and now to CS3.7. I preferred the LS50 in a smaller room over the SCS4.  SCS4 could play better in the larger room. 

I got some feedback to my driver replacement questions from Rob Gillium.

1) The driver replacement is fairly easy. Remove, solder , and secure. No sound calibration is necessary, but the drivers do require some playing time for break-in. The break-in time is usually around 200 hours, at a moderate volume level.

2) The CS2.7 and CS3.7 coaxes are $525 each, plus shipping. The woofers for the CS3.7 are $400 each, and the Passive Radiators are $200 each, plus shipping.

3) The newer crossover was added at serial number #882 (rev 2). I prefer the older style crossover which was done with point-to-point soldering on masonite. The newer style (revision 2) was done on a PC board.

4) The cap of the CS3.7 is power coated, however the original versions were an anodized aluminum (smooth). All versions can be touched up with a black semi-flat krypton paint #1613. 

Tomthiel has offered unique insight regarding the CS5 baffles in this thread.

I read the main reason for the change was the cracking of the baffles. Weight being second.

@scubabird, I too think the closest model to the legacy Thiel’s currently made at that price point is the Vandersteen 2’s. On the other hand, the attributes that you singled out; ...”exceptional detail and clarity...”...is where they separate the most. The Magnepans previously mentioned share most similarly in transient response and to some degree in coherence (compared to others), but are quite different in other ways. Based upon your previous post, I think you’d be happiest with genuine legacy Thiel’s.

There is some reference to that issue here - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-owners-2?page=87

Best bet is to look for someone local or directions like - https://www.bobvila.com/articles/how-to-fix-cracks-in-concrete/

I owned Thiel 7.2s many moons ago but mine had the mineral composite baffle.  Don't know if it true or not but a couple of people told me there were a couple of reasons for the switch.  One was about 15 pounds of weight difference per speaker and the other was problems when speakers were shipped overseas (e.g. Asia)

I just learned something from Rob Gillum regarding 3.7s.He told me that first generation 3.7s coax incorporated a silver bezel, latest generation have a black bezel instead of the silver one.

Hello
I have been a long time reader and fan of this forum. I have Thiel cs7 that have been upgraded to the 7.2 to say that I cheated on the audiophile path would be an under statement. i bought my speakers from a fellow audiogoner appx. 5 years ago, at that time I thought my Krell ksa 100 amp would suffice, but everything I read said 7.2s NEED power and plenty of it. So I started researching and listening to bigger amps. i was just about to pull the trigger on some Mac 501s when I read about the Thiel liquidation auction in Tn. I now have the Krell fpb 600c that Jim used to power his/my speakers.
When I bought the speakers the concrete baffles were cracked but everything sounded great. Now with the bigger krell on the speakers I am getting air through the cracks which causes distortion in the woofer of my left speaker.
I talked to Rob a few years ago about the cracks and he said there was a small shop near Thiel in Ky. that use to do those repairs but they closed about the same time Thiel closed. 
My big question is "has anyone repaired a cracked concrete baffle or know someone that can repair a concrete baffle"?

I agree Vandersteens are the ones that come to mind as the closest to Thiel sound and also build quality.

I read things on zobel networks commonly being used with thiels speakers and amps used with them can anyone explain this? As well as the alpha goertz cables people talk about.

@scubabird 

If I was looking for something that provided the essence of what I love about the Thiels, and was looking to get hold of something that was in current production, my starting point would be Maggies and Vandersteens.  I had Magnepan speakers in my listening space from 1984 to 1996 and loved them.  Moved onto Thiel when we needed something more practical to best co-exist with our then toddler.  I started with the Thiel CS .5, and then in 2011 moved up to the 2.4.  Much easier to work into my listening space than would be comparable Maggies.  I have  never owned Vandersteens, but in my space Vandersteens would be easier to work with.  Also, Vandersteens would be easier to work with from an amp perspective  relative to either Thiels or Maggies.  Hope this helps.

Hope I’m not going to ruffle any feathers with this question, but would like to know any recommendations folks here might have for a currently manufactured speaker in the range of $2K-$3K per pair that delivers alot of what made the legacy Thiels sound so good. I assume any such product would implement the time coherent design principles and sturdy construction of classic Thiels.  Might go somewhat higher on price range but not looking to spend twice that amount.  Could look for older Thiels, but for now am wondering if anyone else is currently building new speakers much along those lines. My fond memories of my original 2’s was their exceptional detail and clarity compared with most anything else I shopped at the time.  Thanks for any suggestions!

I just finally picked up my first set of Thiels, a minty pair of CS2's.  Actually, it was a set of CS0.5's that were my first experience in this crazy hobby over 20 years ago and I never forgot it. 
I purchased these from the original owner and they're finished in black laminate, which I haven't seen very often.  They sound heavenly and I'm having a blast with them, rediscovering music.  I have them in my home office, sitting next to my VA Schonbergs that have been my favorite speaker in the house for the last year, or more.  

My my wife said I have too many toys....says the lady with 15 purses.  I might need to have her committed...

Some (not all) of the above mentioned amps that come at rather high prices (too rich for my blood) suggest low impedance capability but don't actually commit to it in their specs. Curious, no?

Luxman m900u happens to be at the top of my list if any place will let me finance.

I agree Luxman M900u would be what i'd choose if i couldn't find a Gryphon to drive 3.7s.

I meant to say the new CODA #16 that is supposed to be super quiet.

@thoft, tubes don’t typically like being driven into low impedances. The afore mentioned Coda amps might work nicely. 

I want to ask folks here about replacement drivers for the CS3.7. 

I am wondering if I should buy 2 tweeter/midrange drivers and keep in storage for potential future need. I plan to keep this speaker of years. 

Does the replacement of the driver just require unscrewing, soldering, and screwing the driver back on? Does it require any audio calibration after replacement to get it to factory spec? I have asked this question to Coherent Source but have not heard back from them yet. I thought I would also ask here too.

Let me chime in on the amp for the CS3.7. I will be getting mine on Saturday and will hook up a single Benchmark AHB2 ($3K) which has 194 watt at 4 Ohms. My room is small. I think the slightly warm top end of the CS3.7 will work well with the very neutral AHB2. If it does I will get a second ABB2 to run in mono since this stereo amp was designed to run even better in mono (or bridged). A long thread on A'gon about this topic.

If the AHB2 is not a good match with the CS3.7. The Luxman m900u and the CODA #8 for $6K or the CODA #12 are what I would consider next. These 3 amps are much more warmer than the AHB2. I don't think I will need to go this route but the CODA's and Luxman amp should be rather good with the CS3.7.

I’m honestly going to probably go krell or audio research if the place nearby will let me finance.

@thoft, I remember Stereophile giving something of a mixed review of a Lazurus hybrid preamp in the mid 90’s.

http://www.incarock.com/preamps/lpa.htm

You’re much more trusting, and willing risk taker than I am.

If you’re really looking for an amp to drive the 3.7’s for less than $10K, why not use the main one that Jim Thiel used when developing the 3.7’s: Krell FPB 600 ? You can find one used and have Krell rebuild it for about less than that. If you’ve got a smaller room or budget, you can go with a less powerful version.

https://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/829/index.html

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGljOTujkfq/?igshid=19gs0wszy57rg 

Did this so you guys can see the amps

A guy has these amps he used to drive apogee
scintillas with for sale. custom made by Lazarus whatever company that was. Thinking I might hop on those. Two whopping transformers.

tomthiel,

I remembered your previous comments on Morrow cables and was checking out their SP5 speaker cables a couple days ago. Most of the reviews focused on mid and high frequency performance, and there was little mention of bass performance. What's your view of how the Morrow speaker wire handles the low end? Is the SP5 high enough in the Morrow hierarchy to get really good performance or do you need to go to SP6 or higher to achieve sonic satisfaction?

I know that Morrow has frequent sales, but right now they have 50% off on the 5 series cables or higher, which sounds like an especially good deal.

thieliste, unsound
Thank You for assisting thoft.
Happy Listening!

@thoft, re: Aragon 2 Ohm capability, I think not:

http://www.aragonav.com/legacy

Notice none are rated into 2 Ohms

The 8008 didn’t fare too well when tested into 2 Ohms:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/aragon-8008-power-amplifier-measurements

@tomthiel Thanks for your response, a couple of thousand is not bad at all but it is no surprise for speakers that were in the top 20 best speakers of all time and very reasonably priced compared to the competition.Even by today's standard they can keep up with much more expensive speakers.

Back in the day AV Therapy was a Thiel dealer for over 20 years.

tomthiel
Morrow Cable has a strong following, as does, Clarus and Grover Huffman.
Happy Listening!

luxmancl38
Thank You for posting the CS 2.3 loudspeakers. You guys are lucky to have a great Audio shop in Audio Video Therapy Nashua NH.
Happy Listening!

I was at my local dealer recently Audio Video Therapy in Nashua NH and they have a nice pair of CS 2.3's for sale. Light maple. 

I really like the Morrow cables compared with my admittedly limited stable of competitors.

Thieliste - Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service would know. The third New Thiel CEO told me "less than a couple thousand"; but then he was defending the decision to abandon Jim's designs. My impression is that marketing was in disarray after Jim's death in 2009. After taking on Crutchfield, the US dealer base evaporated and so forth. If anyone finds out, I'd like to know.

sdl4
Any brand that does not source to china is my focus. Swisscable, is my first audition sometime in December. I am open to other European or Japanese competitors.

Happy Listening!

Does anyone know how many pairs of CS 3.7s have been sold worldwide between 2007 and 2014 ?

@thoft A used Diablo 300 would be within your budget about $8K.The Diablo 300 has everything a 2.7 or 3.7 needs : high current, organic and full body sound.Otherwise Ayre is great but you won't have the bass of Gryphon amplification.

So my adcom left channel is feathering out. Staticky/hissy. I think I drove it too hard on 4 ohms too soon since the first owner never had it on anything less than 8ohms

jafant,

What are your current ideas about cables for your system?

sdl4
You own a great system. Good to read that newer Cardas cabling is a sonic match with PS Audio gear. Historically, Audience and Straight Wire are sonic matches with Thiel loudspeakers as well. I am unfamiliar with newer Audience Forte and Front Row cabling options. A few reviews on each line  are slowly making a presense into the Audio press.
I always advise to trust your own ears regarding cables/power cords.One does not need great spending to achieve great sound. A full loom as well as mixing can yield excellent aural results. Have fun!
Happy Listening!

I read the Aragon 2004/4004 can run two ohms can anyone confirm?