Updates about my Thiel's
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/332679-thiel-cs2-4-xover-schematics-2.html
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/332679-thiel-cs2-4-xover-schematics-2.html
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Today I made a recording of my installation with the song Takla Makan by Yello, sound recording was made with a Tascam DR-40 v2 in the format WAV 24bit-48k, the video is just from my phone. Now is You-Tube not the most suitable medium for sound and often there is no option to listen to it optimally via the equipment You-Tube plays, so also a link from the original sound file for download so you can directly put the file in your music streamer for the best result. This recording gives only an impression and is far from how it sounds 1: 1 but I thought it would be nice to share it. Original sound file out of the Tascam: https://free01.thegood.cloud/index.php/s/WjKpX2wADS37x8H You-Tube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_CIpgiH5Zo&t=117s |
Yesterday I placed the last upgrade of this project, I am talking about the Jantzen wax coil's that took some time to arrive but finally I have them mounted on the woofer crossovers and listened for a few hours to what they do in the whole picture. Believe me, the Wax coils are the icing on the cake!! Equal to the coax, the upper bass / low mids in the room now places more up front and outside the speakers and the bass / low mids has more weight / push and detail, the Wax coils clearly!! show an improvement with every kind of music in the lower regions, music with low voices like for example Leonard Cohen sounds really freaking good. I am totally happy with how the speakers are performing now, by default I was already very impressed with the CS2.4 but now they perform at a totally different level!! what I want to say more is that there is absolutely no sharpness or rawness to hear, rather the opposite!! with still the beautiful Thiel character present. |
I made a new recording of my CS2.4 with now also the Jantzen wax coils mounted. The recording is made twice, 1 time with the Thiel's connected to earth and 1 time without the earth connection, the recording is mixed so that every 30sec is switched between the two recordings, you can also see that in the picture if there is or not a ground wire to be seen next to the speakers. I do not hear a difference myself, but it could be that the speakers first have to play a week without the earth wire to hear a difference, who knows ........ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wws3q_bQCiw Direct link for download https://free01.thegood.cloud/index.php/s/kQQZQ8e2QY9LTW6 |
Dear holco, Your system looks neat and clean. Well done for your upgrade. Your system sounds wonderful. I can hear that your system is very airy and opened now. The sound stage is big and wide.The high frequency is well extended without fatigue but smooth. Your speakers have wide dispersion. The speakers sound totally disappeared from your system. The above are just my two cents. |
Dear jafant, I'm using meridian cd player g08 for source, goldmund 18.4 mono blocks paired with pathos in control pre-amp driving thiel 2.4. As my power amp is currently out for service, i have used my av amp, denon to run in my speakers. I hear the mid starts to open up and high is more resolved. Hope that the mid can open up more and make it sounds balance. Otherwise, i may need to un and resolder the caps. You are using thiel speakers too? Can you share your system with us? |
think I have taken the maximum out of the CS2.4I think I'm there, too. If I had ample money and time, it would be interesting to experiment with ultra caps (Jupiter, Dueland), resistors (Path), and try the wax foil coils. But if I had that much money I would probably just buy Vandersteen 7s and call it a day! I think my modded 2.4s sound as good or better than anything new up to at least $20K and for a fraction of the price. |
very curious about your findings!! @holco
I was able to compare the Cardas and FST channels in mono over the weekend. Not an apples to apples comparison because I used the Cardas in biwire configuration, so changed two variables at once (actually three variables: hookup wire, binding posts, and biwire cabling). I do have jumpers and will compare biwire to single speaker cable later (in stereo instead of mono) but wanted to maximize any differences for this test. One thing I did *not* hear was increased bass impact as you reported. There was one song where I *did* hear much more prominent bass (and a less than pleasing glow on vocals and such) but it turned out that I failed to disconnect the FST channel, so was hearing the output from both speakers (the FST speaker was behind and slightly to the side of the Cardas speaker at the time). Laughing out loud. First off, the FST channel sounded great and I would have been happy if that were the final configuration. The Cardas didn’t reveal FST wire to be “broken”. That said, the Cardas wire/binding posts bring what I would call an ultimate level of refinement. The differences were subtle in mono but important for the sound I’ve been seeking. I heard more immediacy/presence, more flesh. A bit richer tonal saturation. This was most apparent on vocals and instruments sharing the frequency of human voice (guitar, violin, woodwinds, etc). Also, acoustic bass, kettle drums and toms. I did *not* hear any differences on cymbals, chimes, and bells. Yesterday I installed the Cardas in the second channel. Listening in stereo revealed that this effort and expense was well worth it. It’s hard to describe the sonics, but I’ll try. The Cardas wire/posts (and biwire speaker cables) “snapped everything into focus”, gelled the sonic picture into a cohesive whole. I would say more openness and clarity, more immediacy, denser images, more holographic, and a sweeter/richer midrange. I had been considering an ultra bypass cap to sweeten the midrange – no longer on my to-do list. There is no end to combinations to investigate. My configuration came mostly from the mind of Tom Thiel who brought his wealth of knowledge and experience, and spent many months researching the possibilities for the CS2.4. With more time and money, I thought I might further investigate some “ultra” possibilities (Clarity CMR caps, possibly mixed with Jantzen Alumen Z; Jupiter copper foil or Audyn True Copper Max bypasses; Path Audio resistors in the coax and woofer feeds). But that was before I heard my configuration with the Cardas. The sound I am getting is astounding. Other than low bass, I really can’t ask for better performance. Just, WOW! |
@andy2 I replaced every passive part from the binding posts to the driver hookup wire. Binding posts: Cardas "CPBP" (rhodium over silver), dual for biwire Woofer in: Cardas 2x15 ga twisted pair plus 2x17.5 ga hand twisted (~14 ga equivalent) Woofer out: Cardas 2x15 ga twisted pair Coax in: Cardas 2x15 ga twisted pair Coax out: Cardas 2x17.5 ga hand twisted (wire gauge per Tom Thiel recommendation; OEM wire was 18 ga throughout) |
Beetle regardding outboard xo's didn't Tom say something about the length of the wire to the drivers form the xo being significant to the design? Maybe not. If there is no adjustments for design criteria going to an outboard xo I would rather get outboard if it has the most sound advantages. That is true that given the same configuration, having an outboard xo will require a slightly longer wire run from the outboard outputs to the driver inputs. But if you're going outboard, you will have to modify the binding posts to bi-wire anyway. And if you're brave enough, you could place the bind posts on the back panel right behind the drivers (by drilling a few holes) which will shorten the wire run to the point which it will not be an issue. |
didn't Tom say something about the length of the wire to the drivers form the xo being significant to the design? I don’t recall that. He monitors the Thiel Owner’s thread if you want to ask him. I *do* remember he is a fan of short speaker cables. I haven’t told him my cables are 2 m! Tom *is* concerned with heat management because of possible drift as resistors get hot. An outboard solution allows for this heat to be directly vented to the room. One iteration of my build had the resistors in stainless clips, mounted on aluminum bars. This really worked well for heat dissipation. I ran the speakers overnight, then at SPLs I use for rock recordings for one hour. Even a 30 ohm resistor was barely warmer than my skin. The bars, however, introduced a subtle sonic anomaly and I preferred the SQ without the bars. I did not run the same heat test after I removed the bars. That said, I don’t have experience regarding SQ degradation resulting from hot resistors. As for vibration control, I also lack experience in if/how cabinet/XO vibrations degrade SQ. My build has the boards mounted with rubber feet against the cabinet and between the boards and screw heads. I think it’s instructional to note how very few speakers have outboard XOs, even $$$ designs. The only outboard design I’ve heard (might be the only one I can even think of) is the Avalon Ascent. This was a fantastic sounding speaker and remains one of my “best ever”. But I heard it >25 years ago so I don’t know how it compares to newer uber designs such as Vandersteen 7, TAD Ref One, etc. Regardless, I am over-the-moon happy with the SQ of my in-cabinet build. |
But if you're going outboard, you will have to modify the binding posts to bi-wire anyway.I don't follow this. Why would you not be able to choose either single *or* dual binding posts? Why would outboard eliminate a solution with a single BP? I intend, in the coming weeks, to compare biwire using identical runs of cables to single cable plus jumpers. |
I don't follow this. Why would you not be able to choose either single *or* dual binding posts? Why would outboard eliminate a solution with a single BP? If you have an outboard xo, then you would need two separate wire runs from the outboard - one for the coax and one for the bass driver. Therefore you would need one pair of binding posts for the coax and one for the bass driver to connect the wires from the outboard. Otherwise how else could you connect the wires going to the drivers? |
Hi guys, Finally, i had my amp repaired. It sounds great driving my caps upgraded thiel. Additionally, i have diy 3 new hifi racks in replacement of old tv console. I have recorded its performance for sharing. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ypsafv26i1em454/VID-20191203-WA0003.mp4?dl=0 |
In the video, i was playing streaming music from my synology nas, connecting to my newly bought wadia di122 dac via chromcast wirelessly. Further, I was using pathos in control pre-amp and goldmund power amp 18.4 driving the newly recapped thiel 2.4. With the new racks, it also elevated its performance to a new level. My meridian g08 cd player has been left idle for months as i find that playing streaming music controlling from hand phone is more convinient. |
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This is a clearer view of my diy hifi racks.https://www.dropbox.com/s/wdg3vxubu8g3t2u/IMG-20191207-WA0001.jpg?dl=0 |
I have recently completed my capacitor upgrade, having bought the upgrade from Rob Gillum (rob@coherentsourceservice.com). It took 3 weeks for them to get to me in the UK. Most frightening 3 hours of my life doing the upgrade. I ended up removing the crossovers and doing all the work on the bench. 50 hours of listening in and I am completely and utterly delighted...sounds like a new system. Definitely more detailed, speakers completely disappear in the soundstage and I am hearing better clarity through the whole frequency range. My wife says 'it sounds clearer' which is significant praise! If you are still listening to your 2.4's, I really would spend the cash and upgrade them to the SE capacitors, I honestly think it's the best money I have ever spend on my system... |