Pbb and Danvetc, I can only report my experiences. As probably both of you know from my many previous posts, I have no desire to spend more than necessary for good sound. I have always tried to point out good value type of products. I don't own the most expensive cables. For a long time I used my own DIY. But I cannot deny that they sound different. They just do. I can't say the grass is orange just because I would like it to be so. Facts are facts and that's all there is to it.
Regarding my blind testing percentage, it was not just me, but also my fellow salesmen at the audio store I used to work in. Perhaps it was the familiarity level that we had with all the equipment that we demoed. But it was no problem to identify any of the pieces substituted into the reference system, and do it rather quickly and accurately. We knew the sound of the gear, and it showed, blindfolded or otherwise. Now, when you can walk into a room blindfolded and know that there's a Threshold 400 amp playing, when nobody told you what gear was hooked up, then that is no accident. Walk back out of the room, come back in blindfolded and know that a Naim 250 was now playing, and be right. I'm not talking about simply hearing that there is a difference. I'm talking about being able to identify the differences clearly enough to name the amp, blindfolded. And all the guys in the shop could do it with repeatable accuracy, so I don't go with this "golden ear" idea at all. In fact, I wonder why so many people doubt their hearing so much.
But anyway, what I want to point out is that there are clear audible differences between many products of all types, and that normal people are quite capable of hearing these differences on a decent resolution audio system. No blindfold required. Some things may not have much difference or even any hearable difference, but most do. If this was not the case, then people wouldn't be buying different things. There is no way in the world that anyone is going to convince me that the entire audiophile population is "hypnotized" into buying all different kinds of gear, claiming it sounds different when it didn't. That premise is totally ludicrous. I cannot even believe that anyone would propound such an idea.
Again, I think it comes down to a financial rationalization being made when people don't want to spend huge sums of money on cables or other audio gear. I don't have the most expensive pieces anywhere in my system. I can't afford them. But I don't run around telling everybody that I can't hear the difference between my system and a $200k system. I just have made a financial decision on the items I have and am satisfied that I have gotten the best for my money. Maybe my system may sound better to me than some other more costly systems, and maybe not. But they sound different.
I do abhor buying products simply on the premise that "if they cost more they must be better". I don't subscribe to that theory at all. I think that is just as bad as saying that there is no difference in sound, because they are both fallacious. In my mind, the products that come closest to sounding the best, at the most reasonable prices, are the good value products and that is where I try to spend my money. I use my ears, and sometimes, yes, I even will use certain technical specifications in my decision making.
In the end it is the user that has to live with his decisions. If they are happy with the sound, then that is all that matters, regardless of the methods they used to come to the final selection. After all, this is audio, and the sound is what matters.
The person who wrote and those who agree with the writer simply can't accept why interconnect sound different. Aside from being ignorant about why the interconnect sound different, they want to see "the real science" behind the cable making. Obviously if the manufacuture expose the truth then no one who buy their cable any more. It's not because there is no explanation of why the designer choose what they did. If you know how to copy a $3000 interconnect and make one for $200 then these inventors will be starving. If you notice, some manufacture like NBS and Electric glide choose not to speak about technical terms about their product for the people like Redbeard to argue with them about science behind the cable making. I do many friends like Redbeard and I'm sick and tire of put up with them regarding to this topic.
My last word to them is: If you think things are that simple, please make a cable and prove me wrong. Suddenly, the whole room became silence.
These people will go on are argue about why all the equipment should use XLR then there would be no difference in sound with different interconnects.
Redbeard is just bored and trying to pick a fight. Stop this stupid thread already
This topic looks very interesting. I have been lurking on Audiogon for about a year, learning a lot about hi-fi and enjoying one of the most elevated web site on the net...I don't want to convince anybody other then me if expensive cables are worth it, as I am the only responsibile to pay the bills... I do have decent wires[nordost, analysis plus] and I was looking into buying some cardas gold reference ICs[ I am telling you that so nobody can say that I am one of those folks in denail about cables just because they can't afford to buy some good wire]so I stumbled on some the well-known-to-some-of-you web sites, sustaining that blind studies failed consistently to differentiate various wires and the placebo effect is responsible for the percived heard differences...To my surprise, major audiophilic sites banned any blind study[ the only one than can completely destroy the placebo argument] . I never saw a blin study in a audio magazine, and lots of folks on the net,otherwise nice and refined, became hostile or sarcastic dealing with this subject[ somehow understendable, as it would be ridiculous to invest thousands in wires that would not be differentiated compared blind with Sam Telig's 20 bucks ARs and they may take the blind study as a personal challange of their audio skills...] I belived that I felt a little difference while swaping my cables, but I am not so sure anymore that is was real because:
-placebo effect may be very strong.One out of three folks with major deppresion wil get much better taking a sugar pill belived to be the medicine...It is not impossible that the often subtle differences between cables are due to our different expectations...A minor change in the excitation threshold of cohlear cells or more likely less cortical inhibition in the areas surrounding the brain's audio reception zone , as Joe is in awe of his new audio jewlery, could not alter the final sensation? -there are reports of folks[ even audiogoners]with revealing rigs and demonstated integrity that are downsizeing to decent entry level cables, as the exotic ones failed to make a difference. -pro reviewers-see a recent Stereophile advocating the use of a good gold plated RCA and high purity stranded copper as "All that you'll need".
So I decided to try a single blind test. I'll order two philips 963 sacds[ and I'll return the 2nd after..],ask my wife to hook them with the cables to be studied to my amp, put identical cd copies and hit the play buttons 5 seconds appart. I'll change the cables in no time, using the amp's remote and I'll write the impressions . Some friends will be invited to increase the number of measurements[ beers given after...] Do you have any suggestions ?
Interconnects can cause shifts in microdynamics which will result in a change in sound. But it is a funny way to go for tone control, unless you have a lot of money and time and like to fiddle with things. People get into this hobby for a lot of different reasons. Some have a lot of fun with interconnects and speaker cable. Let 'em have at it.
Twl, I don't believe you can dbt to 90%. But, then again, maybe you do have some golden ears and a singular genius, you lucky dog.
Very easy to tell which cable sounds best when you change interconnects on a good passive pre. Also on ES and ribbon type speakers. Phono cables also. I have some stax headphones that I think could show cable change for the good or bad very easy also although I have not done this. The truth about interconnects is: The wrong ones will degrade sound, as always let your ears be the judge.
Redbeard, when all is said and done, some folks will still want the expensive cables and all the bogus explanations that come with them. There is little point in attempting to convince the subjective audiophile. The arguments will go round and round in circles for ages, all to no avail. Something that sounds cogent to you, is met with disbelief, often verging on hostility. In the end the same argument will be used as a closer: the fact that if you can't hear a difference you are not worthy of commenting on high-end audio, which is the realm of the Golden Eared. TWL will invariably come out in the end with a "say it ain't so Joe" line, fearing, I think, that maybe his ears could be playing tricks on him.
I went double blind once. I was using two hands. I was told that if I only used one hand then I would only go blind once. I have been blindly and happily following that advice ever since.
I'll mention another thing. When we were doing this testing, it wasn't just with cables. Components and other things were switched as well, and the task for the blindfolded individual was to not only determine if something had changed, but to name the brand and model of the equipment that had been put into the system. And sometimes more than one thing was changed at the same time. Other times nothing was changed in an attempt to fool the blindfolded person. Both myself and my fellow salesmen at the audio store could name the brands and models that were substituted into the reference system with repeatable accuracy. Ok, so it can be done. My point is that all this hubbub about blind testing is just so much garbage. Nobody needs a blind test. You can do it standing on your head. If you can hear the difference, then you can hear the difference. It's that simple. If the difference is worth the money to you, then buy it. If not, then don't. But to claim that it is all "psychological" is just plain crap.
Dopogue - why? Twl claims he can deliver repeatable results (90% of the time) with DBT. The point would be that a measurement can be taken (a human audition) to determine sonic performance. That has worth - now Twl (or anyone at this level of repeatablity) can serve as a standard. It also proves there are differences in cables.
Being a newbee to Agon, I enter this thread with trepidation. I'm not seeking to stoke a flame fest! And while it's apparent that this topic has been discussed before, if the vets wouldn't mind weighing in I could learn something (which I frequently do in this outstanding forum).
After so many things sayed what to say more? I subscribe to the "wild bunch" that CAN hear differences between cables(and other stuff too). Can you handle it?
As I have posted numerous times before, I have done literally hundreds of blind tests, and had people that worked with me trying to do their best to trip me up. That said, if there was any change in equipment that did make a difference, I identified it well over 90% of the time. I have no fear of blind testing, and I don't think any other audiophiles have any fear of it either. I do think the ABX'ers are afraid that we will try it and realize that they were more full of it than a Christmas turkey. If you really believe that you can't hear these things, then get another hobby. Audio is for people who can hear. Others can play with trains or take up gardening.
I beg to differ, Redbeard. May people perform double blind tests when comparing cables and they usually hear differences. The problem with double blind testing in cables is it takes time. When switching out cables, it takes minutes or hours for the cable to settle in with the equipment they are now on, so to be fair you have to allow for adequate time.Even though the human ear supposedly has a short memory,the ear-mind can remember enough to hear the sonic differences in cables.I believe scientific principles should be adhered to in good cable design, but the final decision-maker has to be your own ears, as no piece of test equipment that man has ever designed can see what the human ear can hear.Nice try though.
I find it astonishing that double blind tests are totaly absent from discussion on cable forums, even prohibited on some!!! What gets me the most is that the same people who swear they can hear subtle differences in cables are deathly afraid of double blind testing. Go figure!
.....good posts Gs5556, Twl and all who see this as a troll-- I agree and trust my ears too. I'm glad that opinions vary though as it makes for a great diversity of music, gear, wires etc. CHEERS. Craig
My high school physics teacher once told us that tire width makes no difference in traction too. Righhhhht, that's why all pro race cars are running on bicycle tires. ;-)
People also saw apples fell from trees but didn't know why until Sir Newton came up with this idea about gravity, and all of a sudden, a lot of thing became explainable. And Einstein's relativity theory, and so on, and so on. Science is just a term to describe the limited knowledge that we currently possess until another genius come up with another briliant theory or discovery. So all that article validated is that we still don't know a lot about how a lot of things works in our physical environment. You might hear the difference, but our current limited "scientific knowledge" hasn't been able to explain it, or know what to measure.
People belive what they want to believe. If people want to think Earth is flat, they will find "scientific evidence" to support their view.
I just trust the best scientific measuring device I have: my ears, and they tell me that interconnects makes difference, so do powercords.
An interesting site, Redbeard. As you can see, it is unlikely to shake the faith of those who already buy into what its authors call "cable theology." But perhaps newer audiophiles who are still making up their minds about such things will find the different perspective offered there enlightening.
Any article posted under a title such as 'The truth about interconnects' deserves to be ignored. The effects of interconnects on sound are subtle and vary depending on the situation. A blanket claim to the 'truth' is absurd.
The sub-linked article is a kill: "As a rule of thumb, I recommend investing about 5-7% of your total system cost into cables and interconnects, with the following priorities:
1. Video Interconnects (75 ohm, shielded coax) 2. Analog interconnects (low capacitance, twisted pair / Coax, shielded when needed) 3. Speaker Cables (Low DC resistance and inductance, short runs when possible) 4. Digital Interconnects (75 ohm, shielded coax for short runs, or toslink for longer runs)"
Oh yeah, my TV's much more important that the rest of the system - but this quote is from a HT site. But what do I know, as a joke I've moved my home interconnects into my car system (Nak cassette deck/Soundstream amp/ADS speakers) and found that one can hear the difference driving down the highway. Ack!
But, then, they call ME extreme (same article): "The truth of the matter is, standard 12 AWG Oxygen Free Multistranded Cable (OFMC) is fine for most applications except for maybe the extreme scenario of a particularly difficult Electrostatic Loudspeaker (ESL) system driven by tube amplifiers" Is there another way?
Agree with Gs5556. I handled it a long time ago. What you hear is what you get. I suppose the next website link will be about the "fact" that we can't see the difference between anything either. Afer all atoms are atoms. We're just imagining the whole thing.
As we go trolling along... My "truth" is based on what I hear, not what I read with respect to audio products - especially other people's pre-conceived prejudices. Yeah, I can handle it.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
