The truth about interconnects - can you handle it?

Sean: The question isn't, can cables sound different? Of course they can, and I know of no one who would argue otherwise. The question is, when they do sound different, can we explain why? And the answer is, yes we can. Now, it might turn out that someday someone will discover that our current explanation is wrong. But, as in the cases you cited, that will happen because we happen upon things we cannot explain, which forces us to look for new explanations. So far, nobody's come up with any unexplainable phenomena.

Bomarc ... I'm pretty much in agreement that so far I haven't heard of any audio phenomena that could not be explained scientifically, including the science of the perception of sound. I must have miunderstood your previous post because I think we're in close agreement.

There have been many times when I've managed to improve the sound of my system by making a change that I was convinced would have no effect, and then afterwards I have been able to think through why it has worked. For example adding an external DAC to my mid-fi CD player made almost no difference, even though the DACs, power supplies and output stages were much better in the external DAC. Then I added a monarchy DIP and suddenly the external DAC sounds much much better. I then did some reading on timing jitter and it's pretty clear what happened. Same with interconnects, speaker cables etc etc.

None denies that cables sound different but by all means when you strip or look inside the mega-priced ones you see just the same industrial grade wires with some phoney information about close to ideal purity that you can easily buy for pennies at Home Depot. The same thing is to the speaker wires as well.

Any further fancy coating and gold-plated plugs for $50/pr just makes no sence at all. No need to go further than $9/pr Dayton connectors in that case for even $100k equipment.

Wires that cost like a diamond necklace won't ever be any better than $40/pr ones. And in that price range there are plenty-of-plenty to choose the one you'll like if you will hear the differences between them. They will certainly sound better than thin RS ones for $3.

The reactance influence is so minimal and audio freequencies that you needn't worry about that as long as equipment does not oscillate from RF.

Redbeard: You sure opened a can of worms with this thread.

IMO; It does not matter how a cable is built, voodoo science, or marketing hype but rather the end result. That is, how does a cable perform in your system. If it is a real improvement enjoy the music, otherwise get your money back.

Hi!
Sonic genius i share your point of view completely. That's the only important aspect to me, either it (cables or other components) works for me (in my system) or not.
Regards.

HISTORICAL INFORMATION:

before 80's people did not hear substantial differences in interconnects as they "hear" it right now since some of them rich the cost of diamond necklace(yo gotta be keddin' if they don't improve sound!)

so the hearing abilities is much greater nowdays than back than. think about it we now even hear an audio furniture!

I guess gravity did not exist till Newton discovered, and North America was not a part of the world till Columbus stumbled across it too!
People like Bomarc who claim to have the answers based on science delude themselves. Just because nobody has found a way to measure the differences yet doesn't mean they don't exist. It simply means this area of research is in it's infant stages. Infants should not be allowed measuring devices!!!
I suppose the study in Germany in which classical music conductors are seen to hear more than the untrained listener should be ignored since there obviously is not more music being played when they listen as opposed to the average listener!
The biggest problem science has is the pedestrian who actually knows very little that takes something a much wiser person has said and repeats it without understanding what it means.
Every interconnect is different! If you cannot hear the difference you are in the wrong hobby! If you can hear the obvious, just forget the 'junk scientists' who claim you delude yourself and enjoy the music!!!

It seems to me that a corollary of the Audiophilic Truth (everything makes a difference) is "no two things sound the same" - upon which an industry thrives.

To compare the current state of electrical engineering with pre-Columbian or pre-Newtonian scientific knowledge is specious. Physicists and electrical engineers know how wires work. Their properties are not difficult to understand, and my guess is that their performance differences, if any, can be measured by current technology, from a satellite.

Do I think all interconnects sound the same? No. But many of them do sound the same and the differences I hear in the others are very small, less than what happens when you move your head (except in the case of some cables I have heard that are apparently designed to attenuate either the low end or the high end). Just out of curiosity, how do you people who hear all these big differences control for the position and attitude of your personal measuring apparatus (the ears mounted on your head)?

Nrchy, do you really think that we cannot explain why cables sound different ? Personally I think we can, which is why the cables that people consistently rank the best show similar physical characteristics, whether it be minimum capacitance, minimum inductance, or stable, known impendance ... depending which is the key design parameter for the use of that cable.

I agree with you that "scientists" who claim that all wire sounds the same based on their limited science are misled. On the other hand scientists who claim that cables do sound different, and that in virtually all cases there's a simple explanation why they sound different, are being totally honest, and are probably correct.

Well said, Sean, except that I know of no one with any scientific credentials whatsoever who claims at all wire sounds the same. That canard was actually invented by the "everything sounds different" crowd, because it's easier to refute something that clearly isn't true than to take on the arguments your opponents are really making.

I'm new to this hobby but in regards to the placebo effect, I can say that I only started my research after I heard differences from swapping cables on my system. The placebo effect only works when you have a preconceived benefit of a certain product (advil, etc.) I had none in regards to cable differences. I was running a generic Monster cable until a dealer lended me a pair of Siltech. The differences were more than obvious and that's how I ended up in this "miserable, bank-breaking, but somehow joyful" land of hi-fi.

oh, by the way, the artist tends to look for similarities, and the scientist look for differences. Which one are you?

Jchen--Your understanding of the placebo effect, at least as it applies to perception, is wrong. (It's actually wrong even as it applies to medicine--the placebo effect can work even when the doctor tells you the pill won't work.) Simply knowing that two cables are different can make them sound different to you. In studies of hearing perception, people who listen to the same thing report that it sounds different about half the time.

That doesn't mean that all cables sound the same. It just means that when they do sound different, it might be real, or it might be in your mind, and there's no way to know for sure--short of the sort of objective scientific test that will be pooh-poohed here, so let's not even get into that.

Now, you're free to say, "I don't think it's in my mind," and buy whatever cables sound best to you. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking you have to denigrate science to justify that. Nobody has to justify anything in this hobby.

The truth about interconnects - can you handle it?
Bomarc, I couldn't agree more on not degrinigating science. I don't think it's necessary to get into an argument of relative objective/subjective perception of reality. What I wanted to point out, though, and I'm definely leaning toward objective realism here, is that irregard to what my perception is telling me, there is an objective difference. whether or not I can sense it, and to what degree falls under relative subjectivity. This is where I think personal preferences come in. How each individual perceive that objective difference through their senses become subjective, which translates into personal taste. Of course I can be completely wrong, but my senses are telling me otherwise.

jchen,

I should thank you for pointing out objective realizm!

That approach should realy be applied not to only wires but to anything else you're purchasing including the very rest of audio-goods.

I was surprised when I sampled a few of the responses as to how may people disagreed with the information presented on this website. I found the website rather informative.

I have done some limited A/B testing with cables and I honesty can say that I did not hear any differences between the cables in my test.

However, I am open minded and would actually appreciate someone explaining to me why cables sound so dramatically different. Also, what is the issue with the information presented in the audioholics web site?
How dramatically different is the sound to you? Are you certan there are noticeable differences between cables?
What equimpent are you using?

Also, do any of you live in the Northern Virginia, DC area?

Appreciate anyone who can help.

Thanks in advance.

I'm in Potomac, MD with an SET-based system wired via Omega Mikro and Mapleshade cables. Feel free to email me. I believe cable differences are quite profound but will usually not make themselves known in quick A/B tests.

Hello.
Your misinformed post caught my interest. I have relisted it below.

" guess gravity did not exist till Newton discovered, and North America was not a part of the world till Columbus stumbled across it too!
People like Bomarc who claim to have the answers based on science delude themselves. Just because nobody has found a way to measure the differences yet doesn't mean they don't exist. It simply means this area of research is in it's infant stages. Infants should not be allowed measuring devices!!!
I suppose the study in Germany in which classical music conductors are seen to hear more than the untrained listener should be ignored since there obviously is not more music being played when they listen as opposed to the average listener!
The biggest problem science has is the pedestrian who actually knows very little that takes something a much wiser person has said and repeats it without understanding what it means.
Every interconnect is different! If you cannot hear the difference you are in the wrong hobby! If you can hear the obvious, just forget the 'junk scientists' who claim you delude yourself and enjoy the music!!!"

I was wondering if you had done experiments with different cables. Were the differences as obvious as you seem to imply in you post? If tests were conducted, how did you perform the tests?

My experiments have not shown any percievable differences. Does this mean that I am in the wrong hobby?

I am open to further testing, but at the moment am content with the idea that good cables are all that are required. A good cable is well insulated and properly designed with sufficient electrical measurements for its required application. It should also be properly priced for its application.

Please do not misrepresent the above remark as stating that I have given up. I am still very open and eager for knowledge on how I can derive these differences you seem to hear with ease. Perpaps your test methodology will help me in my search.

The study in Germany you brought up has no relevance to the discusson of cable differences. It should be obvious to anyone that a trained classical musician will have an advantage picking out instruments and/or details that you or I may not have noticed. If that musician pointed them out to us in a recording, I am sure that we would pick up on them as well. I assume this study was conduced in a live environment in which case no cables were even involved. Regardless, it does not imply or support any evidence that there are obvious or noticeable differences between cables. I realize that your position does not require evidence as this would be a contradiction on your previous statements. Afterall, that would involve science.

Your post only provides stronger evidence in support of the audioholics article on percieved cable differences. The use of the study in Germany which has no relevence is proof of this. It is not relevant to the discussion and only thrown in to create confusion rather then deal with the specifics of the issue.

"The biggest problem science has is the pedestrian who actually knows very little that takes something a much wiser person has said and repeats it without understanding what it means."

I completely agree with the above statement. I believe you are guilty of it in your initial post.

Science is the reason that you have high fidelity to begin with. Seems silly to throw it all away now.

Taz,
I've no doubdt as you do that cables might/or might not sound different...

The main fact I realy care about is pricing of cables that realy don't show any of the engineering or scientific mechanizm and might even rich the cost of a good speaker or the source component.

That is the main today's audio-bull that realy psychologically drives by its beautifull design(only out-view realy counts!) making naive and rich believe that they will change the sound a lot. In fact in audio freequencies wires can only change the responce(on randomly selected freequencies) by 0.1...0.3dB(now that's to the real measured and objective differences between $10 RadioShack speaker wire and $300 JPS speaker wire). These differences are only can be audiable with infected brain but not with ears.

As to manufacturers that produce ultra-wide-band amps able to start parasite oscillation at RF(that's where shielded costly wires might work) breaking-up the normal performance I want to emphisize with bold letters that audio amplifier should ONLY work at audio freequencies. The rest of junk must be filtered out not with wires $2k/m/pr but with simple penny-cost passive and active elements; the double-side PC-board must be properly measured for overall reactance and analyzed for self-resonances that might occur during RF interfearance.

I agree with your post and would like to add that I have been told to look for cables that exhibit low capacitance and inductance.

I believe that the capacitance issue is more critical with interconnects because of the low signal levels at this stage. I cannot say how significant it is because I believe this would depend on the equipment used.

I wonder how much of this perceived difference people claim to hear between cables is due to high capacitance issues between their equipment. For example, a possible mismatch between input and output impedances between a CD player, preamp and power amp.

Another issue that could add to this problem is long interconnect runs. I have discussed equipment issues with many people and have discovered that some setups place monoblock amplifiers close to speakers to minimize speaker cable runs. However, the interconnect must then be longer then the speaker cable in order to reach the amplifier. If the interconnect is high capacitance, and there are impedance mismatches, this may create an audible difference.

I would welcome input from those who claim the differences are obvious. What test methodology was used? What speaker cables/interconnects were involved in the test? Details would at least give me something to go by and help me with my tests.

I did get some input from someone in this forum that differences are not easy to distinguish with a simple blind A/B test. It requires a more lengthy time period for differences to become evident. Perhaps a longer A/B test methodology could be used.

I also ran across a post where someone claims that he has done many A/B tests and his friends have attempted to try and fool him with different cables. He claims a 90% accuracy rate in distinguishing between cables. Thats very good.
I would be interested in what differences he picks up on and his test methodology. I would also like to know if he finds that a correlation exists between price and performance.

I researched some different cable manufacturers products and would be interested in doing a comparison between the Nordost line, DH labs interconnects, and a standard pair of radioshack speaker wire.

I read on the Nordost website about there approach to cable design and they seem to be research oriented in their designs. The only conflicting issues that they stated in their literature had to to with wire shapes. Essentially they state that the nordost 2 flat speaker cable is rectangular in shape because this improves capacitance and inductance over round wires. However, their higher line cables are solid round mult-stranded litz designs due to the improved skin effect of this design.

Very unusual to promote one design philosophy as better, but then to use the worse one for higher product lines.

DH labs has an interesting dielectric material with their air matrix interconnects. They claim a closer dielectric constant with that of air due to the unique construction of this teflon based dielectric. At least worth investigating.

It would be interesting to put these products to the test.

The other evening I was visiting a friend and discussion drifted to this new audiophile hobby of mine. After a few more glasses of wine we went onto his office to see what was behind/between all of his gear. The first thing I noticed was a set of monster cable 'Y' connections(male RCA with two female RCA) so he could run music two sources to his receiver. I yanked the 'Y" and connected one of them direct and....he was impressed how much better it sounded. He laughed at how much he had been missing as the connection was done over seven years ago. Next, we disconnected everything swo as to untangle all of his AC cords, interconnects, and speaker cable. It was all twisted together. He had four or five sets of cables that were twisted through everything and yet were hooked to nothing. Now his system sounds quite bearable. Looks like he won't be participating on all of those Audiogon auctions, afterall. i got a nice bottle of wine for my efforts.

That there can be minor acoustic differences between well-made cables consisting of the same copper and the same low-effect fluorocarbon dielectric IS interesting. Puffing the Teflon with air or changing L-C values with geometry further complicates the matrix. But what about using magnets or ferrous fillers next to the conductors, as is done y a now-popular manufacturer? Flies in the face of all electrical theory for a linear response, no?

Tazuser, I was the one who did many tests on equipment blindfolded, and had a good success record. I simply listen to the equipment, and determine if I can hear something different. Sometimes I can, and sometimes I cannot. Sometimes I may hear bloated or weak bass, or too hot or rolled off highs, or midrange anomalies, or detail masking, or soundstaging differences, etc, etc. Or sometimes I just hear more natural sounding music. I can't say what I will hear until I hear it.

Regarding the methodology, we used a reference audio system in a high end showroom, with only one set of speakers in the room at one time. Equipment, or cables, were replaced at random while the subject was out of the room. Then the subject is brought is blindfolded, and asked to identify what piece of equipment was changed, and to name it. We all did rather well at this, but we were very familiar with the sound of the various equipment in question. We did this for fun, to pass the time on slow days at the audio store. It was more of a game, than a "science experiment".

I don't really find alot of difference in price versus performance, as a general rule. It is more just differences in performance, but they don't seem to relate much to the price, until it gets pretty high. Above $600 for an interconnect pair, was a noticeable threshold for performance/price relationships. I had a DIY pair of interconnects that beat anything up to $600 in my system, but then I have heard several over-$600 sets since then that did better than my DIY. I don't say that the most costly is always the best. But it may be so in some cases.

I'm all for science, and have a strong science background. If differences are heard, then it's up to the scientists to determine what the reasons are. I don't really care what makes it so, as long as it sounds best in my system. What I do dislike, is when statements such as "wire is wire" are made, in an attempt to "scientifically" persuade people that they really don't hear any difference, when it is quite likely that they do hear them. If the science people want to discover all the inner secrets of why wires sound like they do, that's fine with me. Especially if it results in lower cost, good sounding wires. However, I part company with those who say that they cannot sound different because they are all measuring alike. Clearly, if they sound different, then other measurements must be in order to discover what is different. If these measurements are not existing, then they must be discovered to satisfy that curiosity. Personally, I find it alot easier to just listen and decide.

Tom,
Hope no hard fealings 'bout "cryin' towel"?:-)

Seems to me that you're not "just listening" but calculating before... and this I consider also as a scientific tool to objectively evaluate worthiness of an investment.
Many present cases with interconnects and speaker wires do not require scientific knowlege of electronics and measurements and only by doing budget estimate you realize
what stays on right place and what does not.

Tazuser, I agree with your statements. I believe that the capacitance influences the signal that emerges at the output.
My experience is not scientific, per se. I was a reviewer at one time and it seemed that the lower capacitance cables allowed more "freedom" musically speaking. Don't know why, but it did. And another point: putting a cable into the system and then playing it right after inserting it is a waste of time. The cables "settle," I was told in "the old days" and it was considered a waste of time to evaluate them as soon as you had put them into the system. It was suggested that we listen to a cut as soon as we put them into the system, and then listen to the same cut after 1/2 hour and then after 2 hours. Usually, and I repeat, USUALLY, you'd hear a difference.

Marakanetz, no hard feelings. Everything's cool.