The Hardest Naturally Occurring Substance on Earth

It's simple physics. According to my handbook for sound engineers, the contact area of the stylus is 0.2 millionths of a square inch. That means a tracking force of 1 gram (0.0022 lbs) divided by the contact area is 11,000 psi. That is way more pressure on the diamond than the jack hammers that cut the diamonds out of the mines.

When you own an expensive stylus, it’s simply disconcerting to play records with deep scratches and gouges that will result in loud POPs at best, and groove jumps at worst. It SEEMS like that would induce more wear on the diamond - but is it enough to matter if most of your collection is "clean"? And have there ever been any formal studies to the effects of such records on stylus wear? We don’t seem to have too much in the way of studies (or agreement) on stylus wear rates even in typical conditions. And what about the end groove "pop". Does that wear the stylus faster than a clean groove, even though the linear speed is very slow at the end? A guy posted a couple years ago about accidentally leaving his cartridge running in the end groove over a long weekend - he said the stylus was toast. 100 hours in normal grooves wouldn’t kill a stylus like that - or was it lack of cleaning that was the problem?

I have 2 arms on my main table, and any records I know to be very rough/scratchy, or generally suspect, will get played on the arm with the "lesser" (but still expensive) cartridge. Records with damaged grooves that skip will be tossed in the trash when identified. Beyond that, I try to not be too paranoid as that can kill the enjoyment of our systems - but I do exercise caution. I do have one record I really like with an end groove that fails to "catch" (Dust: "Hard Attack"), sending the stylus careening into its water-damaged label. Yikes! I wrote a note on the label to remind myself, lol (though these days I also use massive record weights that will block the headshell from advancing over the label).

And I do agree that our ears are one of the best tools for detecting a worn stylus. Especially listen for sonic grunge on the inner grooves - and try not to worry too much!

I did know that audiophile are using rough/scratchy records.

I was thinking even a MINT- copy considered rough by audiophiles who clean every record with vacuum cleaners before each play, especially those who would like to hear vinyl as digital.

I am surprised.
Personally, I try to avoid scratchy records, no reason to buy them and many reason to replace them with better copy sooner or later, if the record is really good one. Is it a problem to replace VG+ for MINT- and sell VG+ then ?

Of course, some records are very rare and hard to find or extremely expensive in higher grades. I have no problem playing the occasional VG or even a G+ of an album I love until I can source a better one. I did that with a G+ Metallica "Ride the Lightning" I found locally, until I pulled a VG+/EX off DiscOgs. Though to be fair my G+ mostly just had a very very high noise floor; it didn’t really have much in the way of banging loud pops. But some records are 99% clean and then have that banging loud POP or 2 out of seemingly nowhere. It happens. I’m not going to stop playing them - but I do try hard to keep them of the Koetsu Blue Lace. And of course I also draw the line at a groove jump/skip.

Again, I’m an advocate of enjoying the gear and keeping paranoia at a reasonable, cautious level. And I’m not the kind of audiophile to listen to Krall/Barber/Stanley/SRV/Dire Straits on repeat all the time, so previously "well loved" heavy metal albums get playback here. And I still prefer a great pressing in G+ or VG over digital copies most of the time. I don’t even have a digital source on the main 2ch system. And of course I prefer EX or NM, but I'm really quite happy with a VG+ if that's all I can get.

Yes Chak
Real enthusiasts and lovers of music will play less than mint records on their systems.

As already stated it may not be possible right away to locate a mint or EX copy or quite likely not financially viable!

I have a lot of VG/VG+ records that I have no qualms playing on my rig although none of my carts are to the order of Mulvelings but still a few 2 to 3k mc carts in the mix.

mulveling,

"...I’m not the kind of audiophile to listen to Krall/Barber/Stanley/SRV/Dire Straits on repeat all the time..."

You may be one of the very rare audiophiles that uses a turntable with a repeat ability.

...GK as Oscar Wilde...’revisited’....

Now That’s funny.....terribly obscure and potent reference...;)

But I will agree that the hardest substance is found between human ears.....not all, but often enough...

WELL; there IS such a thing as a, "hard" vacuum!      https://www.quora.com/What-is-hard-vacuum  

*hmmmm*

Then would 'space' (as in outer) be a 'soft' vacuum?  There are all matter of matters and energies zinging about....

Either one would be an unpleasant experience..and somewhat of a brief one....;)

Yes Chak
Real enthusiasts and lovers of music will play less than mint records on their systems.

As already stated it may not be possible right away to locate a mint or EX copy or quite likely not financially viable!

I have a lot of VG/VG+ records that I have no qualms playing on my rig although none of my carts are to the order of Mulvelings but still a few 2 to 3k mc carts in the mix.

I agree about real music lovers and their VG records, they will not likely spend even $500 on a phono cartridge, but will likely spend $500 on 1 record to fill the collection (even if it’s their last $500 in the pocket). For this reason people selling and buying records always. Luckily many 70’s records purchased in the 90’s for $1 now cost $100-300 and easy to sell online.

The question about grading is also tough one. When i buy from the Japanese sellers it is a quest, because when they say the record is "GOOD" it can be MINT- ... In the rest of the world when you see G (Good) it means Unplayable Junk according to traditional grading system.

Those Japanese who sell internationally on discogs can often describe a MINT- record as a VG/VG+. In their own country the grading is different and can be just: A, B, C, D

Unfortunately the situation with amateur sellers from Europe or USA can be totally different when MINT- can be a VG

P.S. I’ve noticed many audiophiles prefer re-issues and those "audiophile pressings" to the old original vinyl, they are cleaning new records (re-issues) more than i clean my 40 year old OGs in VG+

The space, "found between human ears", is much more confined.     Yes; the vacuous ARE, "an unpleasant experience".

rodman9x...*G*  Thereby we run into an interesting paradox of human mental states...

We sometimes to refer to one as being 'dense', which can be analogus to the 'hard vacuum'.  Which can lead to one being 'brainless', 'mentally AOL', and the like.
We all succumb to 'having that (info, memory, knowledge, word) on the tip of ones' tongue', but only recalling it later when it's not relevant, or merely frustrating.  This only makes one feel that ones' 'on board RAM' isn't terribly reliable.
At that juncture, having a 'memory dump' might seem a 'good thing', returning to the 'empty/vacuumed' state.
This runs the risk of rendering one 'clueless' and 'vacuous' yet again.

If 'Anything' is 'in charge' or created this universe, 'It' has a very odd sense of humor.  And has It's own paradox:
How can one be everywhere when it's nowhere at all?

Cosmic 'Whack-a-mole'.....*L*  Good Sunday fare....

asvjerry
rodman9x...*G* Thereby we run into an interesting paradox of human mental states...

We sometimes to refer to one as being ’dense’, which can be analogus to the ’hard vacuum’. Which can lead to one being ’brainless’, ’mentally AOL’, and the like.
We all succumb to ’having that (info, memory, knowledge, word) on the tip of ones’ tongue’, but only recalling it later when it’s not relevant, or merely frustrating.

>>>>>Yes, mentally AOL is no fun, maybe worse than mentally Google.

....actually, I mis-typed 'AWOL', but AOL could be 'Absolutely Out to Lunch'...*G*
It could be discussed and cussed that AOL and its' ilk led to The Google goblin....the noun, the verb, the know-all tells-all oracle of the datasphere.

I'm awaiting the day one reads a scholarly paper in which all the references are websites from Google.  I remember there was a teleplay that depicted the eventual closing of the 'book' libraries, due to lack of patrons....one hopes it remains a work of fiction.

Fiction? George Orwell’s, "Big Brother" isn’t far off:   https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2016-06-22/google-is-the-worlds-biggest-censor-and-its-power-must-be-regulated     and: https://www.searchenginewatch.com/2016/07/29/googles-power-of-censorship-who-controls-the-controllers-of-the-internet/      Or (a more current article): Big Sister, perhaps?     https://www.macleans.ca/society/technology/amazon-alexa-google-home-privacy-surveillance/

Since sound can't travel in a vacuum; I find the voices in my head reassuring.     Counting them is difficult though, with all those pesky echos.

geoffkait, ''ability to hear when the stylus is worn?'' There are many
who are not able to see if the stylus is worn even with their new
(expensive) microscoope. I always asked Axel and he always
advised an new one (grin). 

Rodman“Counting them is difficult though, with all those pesky echos.“

>>>>>I’m not 100% but you can’t have echos in a sphere. But you can have echos in a block.

Sphere?    Block?     Never been that normal.      Perhaps: a rhombohedral ellipsoid!

There are some folks on here who polish their diamond upon hearing the difference. Diamond-Brite---on a website near you. 

That must be one tiny cloth...

dill:

Concave or convex? Worn out ? Moves from left to right, but stays on the bottom?

Please say more...

No amount of dust, grime or grit on an LP is going to wear down a diamond needle, no matter how long you use it. As a previous commenter noted, diamonds are cut using other diamonds because nothing else will work. 

No amount of dust, grime or grit on an LP is going to wear down a diamond needle, no matter how long you use it

Curious then as to what DOES wear down the diamond on our carts in your opinion?
Just the sheer action of grinding through grooves at 11,000 PSI on average?
You do not think dirty records contribute to the wear process in any way, shape or form?

http://www.pspatialaudio.com/stylus_wear.htm

@rodman99999

At last someone with the data. More or less equal parts of diamond dust, grease, and some mixture of fluff and dust. Very close to a commercial grinding compound - you know, the way they shape the stylus in the first place.

Which is why I do US record cleaning. My Koetsu has minimal wear at nearly 1000 hours. That ElmaSonic just paid for itself.

I've also wondered how soft vinyl can wear out a diamond. Other than random diamond particles in the environment or contaminating the vinyl itself, shouldn't the diamond last forever? Of course that theory doesn't pan out because we know very well that diamond styluses do indeed wear out with use. I am reminded that the Grand Canyon was all carved from stone with water.

Diamonds .. huh..
I always thought the hardest natural thing on Earth was my ex mother in laws heart. Maybe I was wrong, as there’s been a lot of pubs (public bars) in Australia selling beers reportedly as cold as ex mother in law's heart..

Diamonds you say, well then..okay

And diamonds are forever, that’s nonsense eh?

Here's another spin on how something soft can wear something much harder.  A carbon steel blade used to chip tree limbs will last a very long time happily turning hundreds of yards of fresh cut tree limbs into mulch.  Now replace the blade with a new, identical one and feed it only tree tops with lots of large leaves and the blade will dull much quicker.

When the moving blade passes the softer leaves, the leaves can slide perpendicular to the edge of the blade before and as it's being cut.  When this rubbing occurs, it dulls the edge sooner that the harder wood that maintains it's shape and is cut by the blade pretty much inline with the path of the blade's edge.  

Add some dirt to the mixture and the sliding, rubbing action across the edge of the blade really dulls things up in a hurry. 

Since the stylus is sliding past the two sides of the record album at pretty much a perpendicular angle to the groove walls, you have the same dynamics.  As other's have pointed out, the actual pressures involved at this microscopic level is quite amazing.  Add even a little dirt and its just a matter of time, (or distance - traveling in the record groove - depending on how you want to look at it).

Water, a relatively soft substance, carves out large structures and even large canyons from solid rock, a relatively hard substance. You know, like Monument Valley and Grand Canyon. Rivers, rainfall: erosion! 🤗

Start wearing a hat in the rain. It's obvious by your posts, your brain is eroding.

Could you be more retarded, Spider Man? Have you been indulging in your mommy’s pain killers again?

Speaking of pressure which (obviously) has much to do with our styli wear, and water (just an interesting topic):      https://www.uraca.com/en/infocenter/know-how/water-jet-cutting-function/

geoff, Its a misconception that all mommy need those. Your's did however ...... perhaps because you were a mis-conception. And not an immaculate one by any stretch!!! "stretch"? (another funny)😂

Hi All,

The OP'er here.  I thought I would try to summarize what I have gained from this discussion, and from the most excellent links provided by a couple of folks.  It is been great reading, aside for the need of marital counseling.  Though growing up I learned you only give a hard time to those you like.  

(1) Yes, a stylus even though made of the hardest naturally occurring substance on earth does indeed wear.  "Flats" occur.  
(2) The stylus can wear out to the point it has a negative impact on the sound quality and the vinyl..
(3) The point at which a stylus reaches and unacceptable point in life is based on so many individual human, component, source and mechanical factors that it is very difficult to have a universal threshold (hours) that we can all reliable use, but frankly it is the most accessible to most of us.
(4) The status of your stylus is difficult to determine unless you put it under a high powered scope (which nearly none of us has) and given that many of us do not have removable cartridge heads it is a chore to do.
(5) Yes, indeed, water has the power to erode.  Having floated the Colorado through the Grand Canyon last year I can say that is is astonishing what Mother Nature can do, but my stylus will not last millennia so it is a moot point here.

So, where does this leave me?  In the same place I started but just more educated.  Thank goodness for a good audio dealer.  

Thanks for participating and keep your eyes out for the next Analog post which puts out there my latest pondering.  

arachnidism, I heard you like wearing your mommy’s Underwear, especially when you post here. Do you Prefer cotton or silk?

It is quite telling of your curiosity.

You should quit while you’re behind. I have myself way ahead on points. Maybe see if your mommy can help you.

Nice summary OP!
Glad you got something of value from this thread.

Yeah, right. Like we didn’t know that already. Give us a break. Hey, Florida hit all time high no. cases. You must be proud.

Stalker alert!!
😱😱😱

It's the attack of the killer 🤡

Too much Clorox, U. You’re supposed to sip it. It’s nice beach weather, shouldn’t you be there? 🏖

Sip it?
Well dang that's where I went wrong!
I thought you had to bathe in it!
😲😲

No, no! It came straight from the horse’s a$$ you have to inject it....

Aw, geez, you had to go there. I guess it was just a matter of time.

You knew it was gonna happen....

“Everything is fine.”

Shoot, I should have done it with those nifty little cartoons-

No, no! It came straight from the 🐎's 🔙🔚 you have to 💉it....

I feel better now.