Cryo-testing
We tried several tests on cryo-ing cables
bottom line is once the cables warmed up
over the weekend at STP; extremely little to
no audible difference.
The opposite though; warm up the cable while
fedding audio through a cable; then cooled
had many noticable diffrences in fidelity.
Bye
Cj |
This was an interesting experiment. Sorry that I didn't have time to read it until now, but I have a few comments which may be of interest.
(1) I work in a technical area and have had a lot of fun reading and speculating about the effects of cryo treatment. In my line of work, I have access to some simple liquid nitrogen cryo temperature apparatus. So I assigned someone to just do a simple test of resistance change. We were careful to use very slow cooling - reducing the temperature over about a week's time - to prevent thermal shock. We were also careful not to use plated metals which I have read can have undesirable thermal cryo-treatment effects due to different contraction/expansion rates of the plating and base metals during rapid cooling. We also used very slow temperature rise (about a week) again to minimize thermal shock. The result showed a small decrease (a few % for most metals) in DC resistance of the metals from such cryo treatment.
(2) Non-cryoed outlets may sound better than cryoed outlets of the same model if they both use plated metal.
(3) Realize that any such small resistance change may not be the cause of any effect that you might hear, if any at all. Many of the problems of electrical conductivity between metals in contact are not the result of resistance, but are due to barrier potential effects - the understanding that electrons naturally exist at different energies in different metals. When two different metal types are placed in contact (as with most connectors including AC outlets) non-linear effects arise due to this barrier effect which can be changed from changing the properties of the metals used. |
Sherod, I have the FIM 880's up for sale.
S23chang these are not the same hubbell outlets prior to cryo-treatment. How can I tell the difference without A/B the outlets quickly? That would have been a question I could have answered quickly and confidently a few weeks ago. Today, I would still answer a question like that exactly as before, but now I dare not say quickly and confidently. :)
-IMO |
Hi Stehno. I just noticed that you still have the FIM 880 outlets listed in your Virtual System. Have you determined that they are still the best in your system? |
Are they the same Hubbell wall outlet "before/after" cryo treatment? How do you compare them since you can't swap things around quickly enough and there is no turning back to non-cryo stage? |
FWIW, Last Friday evening I installed my cryo-treated Hubbell (non-plated) 20 amp wall outlets for every component and noticed a very nice improvement after only two hours of burn-in.
I'll spare the details but in short, the improvements were on the order of only perhaps 50% of the improvements noticed when I replaced my amplifier's Hubbell 20 amp IEC connector with a cryo-treated version of the same make and model.
On Saturday, I installed 2 Marinco and 1 Hubbell cryo-treated wall plugs on the ends of my passive in-line conditioners and then installed two cryo-treated Schurter 15 amp IEC connectors on the other ends of the remaining two line conditioners for the cdp and pre.
Did not notice any improvement here. The Schurters are of inferior build quality to the standard Hubbell IEC's and will be replaced soonish with 2 cryo-treated Marinco IEC connectors.
-IMO |
Not so limited Kana813 - I must've seen 'em live at least 10 times, and they actually crashed at my house one night on their very first tour; we even jammed. However, you are correct in noting that any conclusion involving the sainted 'Mats may not be rationally supportable...
Anyway, you whizz on your amps; I'll whizz on my outlets ;^) |
Zaikesman- Perhaps you should follow Mr.Stinson's lead and whizz on your amplifier so that all these changes won't sound any any different. This would provide you with more actual music listening time. Of couse, this conclusion may not be rationally supportable due largely to your limited opportunities to observe Bob. ;-) |
Followup postscript: Today (next day) I received a powercord I bought here on Audiogon, and threw it right into the system, supplying the power amp. Swapping it a few times with my reference cord, and playing one cut repeatedly in a similar test to the one described above (different CD though: Red Garland Quintet "All Mornin' Long", chosen because this test required me to run in one-speaker mono), I had little difficulty hearing changes in the presentation, which only got easier to identify with certainty as I went through about the same 1/2 hour round of casual auditions as with the outlets/lines yesterday. Take that info for what you will... |
|
Followup: I tried an informal experiment. My gear rack is on casters, so I repositioned it (from where it lives centered between the speakers) to a spot over to the side where the main AC cord could just reach both my normal outlet (now the Porter Port) and one on another wall that I don't normally use for the system. This other outlet is an old two-pronger like the one I replaced, and as with that one I used an adaptor to ground the connection. But this outlet is also on a different circuit than my usual outlet, so the comparison involves altering more variables than just the outlet quality and the use of the adaptor. (I moved one Quiet Line to whichever outlet I was plugging into, and doused the lights on that circuit.)
With the rack set up this way, I repeatedly auditioned one cut ("Dirty Old Town" from Rod Stewart's first album), played on CD instead of LP because my phonostage is battery-powered so I figured the digital front end could be more sensitive to powerline changes. Switchover between outlets was accomplished in under five minutes, allowing some time for the amps to re-warm. Upon first listening to both outlets, I was mildly surprised to think I did hear some slight differences, which I would describe as being between a more sharply defined, separated, brighter, and dynamic presentation with the Porter Port/normal AC line, and a more blended, spacious, mellow-balanced, and compressed presentation via the old outlet/alternate line.
At first I was almost thinking I might prefer some aspects of the sound using the alternate line (at least with that source material), but switching back and forth a few times made me much less confident that I was indentifying any real differences. I know this isn't an ideal way to test, but I quickly began losing interest as I became less convinced that there were any differences I could reliably track, or that really mattered. I could have been fatigued or bored, but by the last of about five rounds of auditions, I was ready to conclude that I couldn't tell the two outlets/lines apart by ear, or that if any differences did exist, they were too small and subjective for me to get worked up over.
So, I put the rack back to its usual position and powered-off for the night. Maybe I'll get curious enough some other time to try this again with more extended program material and listening sessions, maybe not... |
Vvrinc & Zaikesman- very funny, don't quit your day jobs!
;-) Kana |
I'm cryoing right now! OK, the best 'Replacement outlet' I ever witnessed was when their late, great lead guitarist Bob Stinson got so blind drunk on stage he turned around and took a whizz on his own damn amplifier (kept right on playing afterward too - it didn't sound any different... :-) |
My wife likes the Saks outlet store in Philadelphia. She buys, I cryo.
(Chuck, Chuck, oh Chuck!) |
So, after all of the above, what's the best replacement outlet for the money? |
[...P.F. Sloan/Steve Barri, '65. Uh, mebbe I should've jumped off a bridge instead... ;^) ] |
There's a man who leads a life of danger.
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes,
Another chance he takes.
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow.
Secret Agent Man.
Secret Agent Man.
They've given you a number.
And taken away your name.
Beware of pretty faces that you find.
A pretty face may hide an evil mind.
Ooh be careful what you say.
Or you give yourself away.
Odds are you won't live to see tomorrow.
Secret Agent Man.
Secret Agent Man.
They've given you a number.
And taken away your name.
Swinging on the Riviera one day
Layin' in a Bombay alley the next.
Oh don't let the wrong word slip.
While kissin persuasive lips.
Odds are you won't live to see tomorrow.
Secret Agent Man.
Secret Agent Man.
They've given you a number.
And taken away your name. |
Lines from songs? O.K. I will close with this!
Some people's hot
Some people's cold
Some people's not very
Swift to behold
Some people do it
Some see right through it
Some wear pyjamas
If only they knew it
The pyjama people are boring me to pieces
They make me feel like I am wasting my time
They all got flannel up 'n down 'em
A little trap-door back aroun' 'em
An' some cozy little footies on their mind
Po-jama people!
Po-jama people, people!
Lawd, they make you sleepy
With the things they might say
Po-jama people!
Po-jama people, people!
Mother, Mary 'n Jozuf, wish they'd all go away!
An excerpt from the song titled,"Po-Jama People" From the late 'n great Frank Zappa and The Mothers of Invention, "One Size Fits All"
Maxgain, turns his back and leaves,humming and laughing, while making a rude gesture. |
I think I'll sign off from this thread with a few apropos lines lifted from a Blondie chestnut:
"No I don't believe in luck
No I don't believe in circumstance no more
Accidents never happen
In a perfect world
Precognition in my ears
Complications disappear" |
TheAudioTweak, I've toyed with the idea of cryo-treating my rack (just the rods and nuts) but I'm not sure where I would go to have such a thing done. I would think that cryo-treating a steel-framed rack would/could provide additional benefits.
Thanks for the encouragement, Zaikesman. And good question.
-IMO |
Stehno: No 'disgrace' at all in taking on the risk of an experiment like this in public (would Maxgain?). And I wonder, philosophically speaking if you'd ultimately feel you really gained more at the end of the day, had you happened to choose the correct outlet instead?... |
I would like to try cryo treatment on Audiopoints and Sistrum platforms. Devices that are reactive within a known environment, unlike an AC outlet, a device dangling within a know environment but being much controlled from a variable outside environmemnt. Perhaps the points and the Sistrum would be even more reactive to vibration like the trumpet that has gone thru cryo treatment. Tom |
Yea, Chuck, we need that gong here and now, babe! |
Yes, I will pack it in Labtec, but, with all due respect, I have never in 2-3 years of posting about outlets said that I hear dramatic changes in an outlet every few hours, or every 2-3 months, so please don't put words in my mouth that have never been there. Debates rage about DBT as well, and you certainly could not describe the experimentation I've done as DBT. If Stehno identified a difference, then it is only a partial failure as compared to Eldartford's complete failure, but as the naysayers say, it is all psychological anyway.
That's it, I'll sign off on this issue and refrain from posting anymore. |
I hate to contribute to these never-ending threads, but...
With all due respects to HDM, no matter how many times you repeat it, I think it's obvious that continuing this debate is yielding very little. If you personally hear dramatic changes in an outlet every few hours, or few days, or 2-3 months, then knock yourself out. Heck, even if you enjoy your music better sitting on a cryo'd couch, then who am I to say otherwise. I think your position on cryo is clear and people can judge for themselves at this point.
FWIW, I wouldn't say science can explain 100% of everything (and scientist do disagree); however, you have to give some (if not more) credence that it could all be in your head.
Psychology and emotion are often more powerful than science and logic. Look how many people believe in ghosts, UFOs and Elvis being alive. We're all guilty of it to some degree, so their is no shame in admitting it. Even the venerable JGH failed a DBT test many years ago that was publicized in Stereophile (take heart Stehno).
Look, the Jedi Mind Trick works just as well on Earth as it does on Tattoine. It's called being gullible and almost every industry tries to exploit it. If you don't acknowledge that possibility at all and maintain a level of professional skepticism, then you run the risk of losing credibility when people actually hear things for themselves (like Stehno did) and came to contrary and embarassing results. |
Stehno: I'm going to repeat this again just because I think many people do not really understand it. To get an absolute read on what any receptacle (cryoed or uncryoed) is all about, it is imperative, in my opinion that you run the whole system off exactly the same receptacle or receptacles. I was convinced (for a few months actually) a few years ago that the Arrow Hart 8200 was a better receptacle than the Hubbell 8200/8300 series because I was too cheap to run ALL 8200/8300's in my system. When I did do that it became apparent to me that the Hubbells were better (smoother, much more refined, less forward in the midrange and much more natural).
I am speculating a bit here because I have no experience with the FIM, but from the little I do know, it has a reputation for being a "darker" sounding, more laid back receptacle, which either of the 8200's (cryoed or not) you have cannot be accused of. I wouldn't describe the 8200/8300 as aggresive, but it's probably more aggressive than the FIM. My guess is that the FIM you have would be more similar to a non-cryoed Hubbell 5262 or 5362 or the non-plated (non-cryoed) 8300's that Albert Porter uses.
In my opinion, properly cryoing the 8200 or 8300 (or any receptacle for that matter) gives you a blacker, quieter background, more detailed midrange, more extension and at the same time a cleaner presentation at the frequency extremes. What you described in the high frequencies as being "better" (decay, etc) with the non-cryoed unit is (once again in my opinion based on a bit of experience with this stuff) the slightly "noisier" presentation of the non-cryoed unit combined with a bit of distortion. It's a "zingier", more exciting presentation that is a bit impressive at first (quite detailed, midrange a bit forward, etc. especially after living with the FIM) but ultimately, in my experience, shows itself to be less "truthful" and fatiguing. That is the problem with 1) quick comparisons as compared to living with a receptacle for 2-3 months and becoming accustomed to what it is really doing and 2) combining 2 receptacles (the FIM and the Hubbell 8200/8300) in one system when those receptacles have very different presentations.
My advice to you obviously, when you get your new outlets is to make sure that you're running the whole system on them and eliminate the FIM from the equation. That way, you'll really be able to get a take on them. |
Zaikes. As you know, I'm in disgrace. And I have the perfect response for all of my enemies who have conspired against me in this endeavor. I just haven't thought of it yet. :) (just kidding of course).
Seriously though, I remain a very committed believer in tweaking the electrical for sonic improvements. I've witnessed too many very real improvements to believe otherwise and I certainly cannot explain why.
This was a humbling experience to falsely read these two outlets. I'll admit I was a bit cocky going in knowing that I had the most resolving system I've heard to date. I actually thought it would take me all of about 40 minutes to determine which was which. In fact, I was almost naive enough to declare which was the cryo'ed outlet without ever installing the second one.
As I stated earlier, it would have been perhaps a better test to use non-plated outlets. To more easily distinguish any tizzyness from perceived benefits. Or perhaps, it's best with the plated versions for just such a reason as this.
I am still curious why I perceived better sonic benefits after a few days of burn-in. And I barely gave the second outlet 14-16 hours of burn-in time. Again, that is with my amp (the component where I always obtain biggest benefits from tweaks) plugged into the lower receptacle and the cdp in the upper receptacle. As I stated earlier, the screws were missing from the lower receptacles which would lead me to believe they were perhaps used less than the upper receptables, if at all. I really should install the second outlet again and let it burn-in for a few more days just for my own edification.
At the very least I've learned that even though this is just a hobby and a very enjoyable and even serious one at that, there are always credibility issues in every endeavor. At the very least it's taught me not to be so cocky or even reckless, and I need to be more thorough and methodical if I wish to maintain any credibility. I wondered why Eldartford took such a long time before he came to a conclusion. Now I know.
-IMO |
"no significant differences to be heard" Doh!(Stenho did hear a difference, he just didn't "cook" 'em right)
Maxgain,throws back the rest of his snake oil Manhattan, turns his back and leaves the forum... muttering something under his breath about a doubble "deaf" test....silly old farts.....Julian Hirsch couldn't hear the difference......his brain searches for "meaning"......the answer to some question being "NO"........then starts laughing his ass off!
From "The Further Misadventures of Maxgain",in "Shootout at the Tin Ear Corral" |
Of course my assumption about Stehno's results is that if he went through the same blind audition identification process on the outlets 100 times, the final tally would be pretty close to 50/50 (implying a success rate little different than pure chance), meaning I'm not ready to ascribe any positive *or* negative qualities based on his findings so far and suspect that there are really no significant differences to be heard either pro or con. But you are apparently willing to assign Stehno a 'negative' audition result for the cryo'd outlet based on extrapolation from this very limited data such as it is. One more demonstration that the human brain incessantly searches raw information for patterns, connections, and above all *meaning* - even if such conclusions may not be rationally supportable due largely to our often-limited observational abilities/opportunities. (Whoops, can I say that and still be an audiophile? :-) |
Zaikesman: It should be noted that there are some people (Bob Crump among them) who have reported that they do not like the results of cryo. We also have Stehno's observation, positive on the iec inlet but actually negative on the outlet (sorry Stehno!), so Stehno is perhaps still up in the air. But it is difficult (at least in my experience) when you are working with multiple/different outlets, and I am the first to admit that I made mistakes under the same circumstances.
It should also be pointed out that it is probably very easy to have bad cryo that may result in thermally shocking and perhaps damaging items (the key, at least to my understanding, to good cryo is very slow ramp down and very slow ramp up) and that, at least on Audiogon recently there have been a number of companies (and I use that term loosely) promoting cryo that, to me, definitely lacked credibility.
I am either deluded or have just experienced good cryo I guess. The outlets I have had done were done by Alan Kafton at Cryogenics International, and I now have a cryo vendor locally at a small family owned heat treating company so have actually been able to drop my stuff right into the unit (which does not look much like some of the wonky photos of cryo equipment being touted on Audiogon!) and then remove them 48 hours later when they are still on the cool side.
In any event, you will find detractors as well as proponents for cryo and the debate will rage on. Your final remarks in your last post are appreciated. |
It *is* interesting how cryo never seems to be alleged to make anything sound worse, or that its promoters don't seem to find it ineffective in any area...
Speaking of there being no money in cryo, I don't know if that's true across the board, but I do want to restate for the record that not only is Albert Porter basically selling his outlets priced to just cover his costs (and maybe time, though I'm not sure he isn't essentially donating that), but he even offered for me to keep the outlet he sent me for free if I didn't hear an improvement. I paid for it anyway of course, but it should be clear to everyone that Albert is only doing this because he finds it helpful and wants to help others, not to make money. He was also eager for me to try the PP even though he must have known in advance that chances were I wouldn't report hearing a difference and might write here saying so. Were he not the stand-up guy he is, he'd probably be on this thread right now pointing out that I carry my own psychological prejudices into this audition which might well prevent me from hearing a difference no matter what improvements the outlet may make, so I'll stipulate to that again myself.
I also want mention again that Hdm previously offered to send me one of his spare outlets without charge as well, and that although I have expressed my doubts about this tweak in excruciating detail and suggested that the pro-cryo'd-outlet rhetoric has been a bit over the top, I don't think for a second that any of the A'goners here extolling it are doing so for any reason other than to share their enthusiasm with their fellow audio travelers. I may be a skeptic and have my criticisms, but I don't think this cryo business is some kind of nefarious plot, and I appreciate all those proponents who've accepted my commentary at face value and in good grace. |
The "ice-brewed beer" method of increasing alcohol content is an age old method, best known for Jersey Lightning. This is fermented apple cider which you put out the window in the fall so that the water freezes. Then you pour off the liquid residue, which contains a high proportion of alcohol.
Cryo is just a form of heat treatment, used to alter the physical properties of a substance, usually metal. Cryo treatment of a brass instrument like a trumpet will change its timbre, as will other forms of heat treatment. Interestingly, I am quite willing to believe that cryo treatment of vinyl recordings may affect their sonic quality. For better or worse I don't know. The vinyl flexes a good deal as the stylus traces the groove, and if the vinyl were made stiffer, or more flexible, the sound would change. |
I may have misinterpreted your analogy a bit, I seem to recall tasting ice brewed beer once and thinking it tasted "watery" but then I'm not a conoisseur. It seems like almost everything in this hobby is debatable, even more mundane items like amps can sometimes be controversial, or at least sound quite different in different systems. Not to mention cables. Cryo treatment (and freezing) probably fits in the category of "how could this possibly do anything?" Plus there is the problem of how to make any money out of this puppydog, as initial investment for equipment is very high and prices for service must be competitive (i.e., low). Cryoing will prob. continue to be a quirk and debatable, at least for audio - doesn't even make a good conversation piece as you cannot see it. |
Geoffkait: It was meant to be a funny story on a slimly related note, not really a perfect analogy. You read it slightly wrong though, it was the owner of the distributorship (who employed me - I was one of the salesmen) that visited the breweries periodically and was told this directly by the brewers. (Yes, there really are people with the title 'master brewer' working in breweries - had I stayed in that job longer, I would've also toured a brewery and met one. In fact, some breweries conduct public tours, but I doubt you'll get told the truth about 'ice-brewing' if you go on one.) Anyway, we were in turn told it by him, our boss. He had nothing to gain by being so honest and open about the issue with his sales force, but getting educated in beer was part of our job, and he was an intelligent, approachable guy who knew the official explanations were kind of fuzzy and that there was snickering in the ranks when the stuff was introduced, so he checked into it and gave us the straight dope. It does make more sense to me than the nebulous implications of the ice-beer ad campaigns did. Plus, my grandfather (who was still alive at the time) had been a brewing chemist at a consulting company in that industry for many years, and although he was long retired when ice-beer came out, he concurred that he could devise no scenario in his mind by which ice-brewing (as the method had been described to me, the details of which I've forgotten by now) could make any real difference. As to your question about whether ice-beer tasted different, there were confounding variables - it was not exactly the same recipe as any of the other beers. Which I'm sure was done deliberately, otherwise it would have tasted just like another beer, so it was really just a creative excuse to come out with a different beer with a different marketing angle. (And about whether cryo in high end audio is officially a 'fad' at this point, I don't know that we can define that one either, but I see elements of faddish behavior surrounding it, just like a lot of things in this hobby.)
Anyway, I just finished up installing the Porter Port and am playing the music I listened to last yesterday, Wayne Shorter's "Juju" (RVG ed. Blue Note CD) and Lorraine Ellison's "Stay With Me" (Warner Bros. W7 green label LP)*. Do I hear any differences? Who the hell knows? It's been almost 24 hours and I don't even know what my volume settings from yesterday were. But overall my system sounds about the same, maybe just a tad worse (could be nothing, could be anything, but it's true that the system, after being unplugged while I worked, probably isn't in the same state of warm-up as it was yesterday). This despite that I also polished the contacts of my wall plug and removed the 3-prong adaptor in addition to installing the new outlet and restripping and polishing new bare wire ends inside the box**. Of course the only thing this 'proves' is that I can't detect an overwhelming difference, not that I couldn't hear any improvement at all under different circumstances. But it sure sounds a lot like no improvement at all (does this support the supposed break-in requirement?). We'll see if I suspect any differently over the next few days...
*If you're a fan of Aretha Franklin's late-60's Atlantic work, don't pass up this little-known Jerry Ragavoy-produced gem from the same era should you ever stumble across it (or a reissue). The once-legendary but now almost forgotten title single (not the Faces tune by the same name) has an epic intensity to surpass Tina Turner's "River Deep, Mountain High" and a more magnificent pathos than "Layla".
**What represents an acceptable ground voltage reading across the neutral and ground terminals? I think I'm getting a little over 1v. |
Zaikesman - The problem with the ice-brewed beer analogy is that the ice brewed beer was heavily promoted in the industry; this is not the case (no pun) for cryoing audio gear. I'm pretty sure cryogenic treatment of cables, records, CDs etc. will never become a fad. Interesting that you accepted on face value the distributor's story (as told by the salesman, who heard it from the "master brewers)." I can't help wondering if anyone drew a conclusion regarding ice-brewed beer based on experience? No need to answer, rhetorical Q... |
Eldee: I regret if there are any Jehovah's Witnesses out there reading along, but I was LOL at that analogy! Too true...I once did the same thing (invite them in) when I was just a teenager. A husband and wife I believe - got them something to drink and we all made ourselves comfortable in the living room. I guess they gamely tried keeping it up for about 10 minutes before realizing that they *really did* have a sincere atheist on their hands and it was going to be easier pickings elsewhere. I remember feeling slightly bummed at the time that they so readily gave up on saving my soul, but the whole exercise in retrospect seems a little gratuitous and unkind of me (then again, they *did* ask for it)...Can't accuse Hdm of being OK with seeing me burn in audio hell though!
Geoffkait: There are actually people out there cryogenically freezing vinyl records? (Don't think I'd do that to my valuable vinyl...) What's next, freezing the little wooden disks? Anyway, if I owned a cryo lab, I wouldn't be offering any explanations either. Around 10 years ago I drove a beer truck for a while, back when 'ice-brewed' beer was the latest industry fad. I remember the owner of the distributorship telling us salesman that he had consulted with master brewers at the breweries and been told that in reality, there was nothing behind the hype: the beer was the same as it would have been otherwise given the same recipe, with the sole exception that if you lowered the temperature enough to cause water to precipitate out of solution and then removed some of those ice crystals before allowing them to dissolve back out again into the brewing beer, you would slightly raise the alcohol concentration by lowering the water content. Big deal. Apparently the brewers didn't want this to be public knowledge because, among other reasons, they didn't want to be seen as promoting higher alcohol content of beers. Did that fact stop multimillion-$ ad campaigns from launching the biggest beer craze since light beers? Ha! (It didn't prove to have exactly the same legs though.) What could it be about the idea of freezing stuff that seems to give people such a kick?... |
"Many years ago I learned that when the JehovahÂ’s Witnesses pay a call, it's a complete waste of time to argue with them. Who knows...in the end they might turn out to be correct, but in the meanwhile, I'll take a pass. So too with Cryo."
A very appropriate comparison, I think. There are elements of audiophiledom that are very much like religious fundamentalists and nutritional supplement adherents: the need to believe trumps all reason. Mushy thinking prevails. |
Zaikesman...Further comment"? I think you pretty much put the lower resistance argument to bed in the posting above. I might only add that citing lowered resistance as an advantage of Cryo is, in general, the kind of misapplied science that, once revealed, tends to discredit an idea rather than to support it. Many years ago I learned that when the JehovahÂ’s Witnesses pay a call, it's a complete waste of time to argue with them. Who knows...in the end they might turn out to be correct, but in the meanwhile, I'll take a pass. So too with Cryo.
As if I haven't made enough enemies (not really) by skepticism about Cryo, I now declare that almost all power conditioning is unnecessary for equipment with properly designed power supply circuitry. The audio circuits see only DC that has been made from the AC power, and this DC can be rock steady and noise-free even if the input AC is noisy and distorted. To make this happen is the job of the power supply circuitry. I am sure that we have all noted the ability of a power amp to play on for several seconds after the plug is pulled out of the wall. For the first second this most drastic AC power disturbance usually has zero audible effect.
Now, about flying saucers... |
It's possible that sonic improvements via cryoing cables and wires are not the result of lowering electrical resistance of the wire. For example, sonic advantages to cryoing CDs and vinyl records are not a function of electrical resistance, at least in the conventional way of looking at it. Hard to say what the real mechanism is for anything cryoed as no way to get in there and measure things, or even to know what to measure. Even if resistance is (measured) a bit lower after cryoing doesn't necessarily mean that lower resistance is the reason the treatment is effective as other factors are undoubtedly involved (e.g., CDs and vinyl). Unfortunately these "other factors" are very undocumented for audio applications. Even the pro cryo labs, for the most part, don't offer any real explanation, altho they've been treating audio cables, CDs and components for almost ten years. |
I thought you would say something like that about why your faith is still strong. Yes, it's only what you hear that matters to you, but maybe it's time to dial-back on the hearty recommendations for others or at least qualify them somewhat, and to take a second look at the conditions under which other adopters reported their observations of positive improvements. Stehno was one of those converted adopters before he added an element of objectivity to his testing, but I'm not sure what he's certain of today. Sometimes it does seem that the more ephemeral or debatable an 'improvement' in high end audio is, the more vociferous a group of audiophiles forms to support it. It's almost as if more concrete improvements would just be too boring and easily percieved by anyone with ears to seem exciting. (Or maybe it's just that concrete improvements are too hard to come by anymore in this hobby, so fetishizing minutiae blown-up to larger-than-life proportions is how we compensate.) Certainly Maxgain isn't the only audiophile to feel some degree of contempt for what he sees as overly-rigorous auditioning checks and balances ; I think there could be some attractive element of what we might call 'audio machismo' at work in seeming able to confidently proclaim one's sonic impressions, without injecting doubt or qualifiers, based on very subjective auditioning experience.
[This is a prefered mode of audio salesmen BTW - just the other day I was in a showroom where a guy was trying to audition two speakers against each other ; the salesman came in and asked which one he liked best. The customer said he liked elements of each and wasn't sure, but was leaning toward the one with the fuller bass. The salesman replied that it was obvious to him, one of the speakers sounded 'clearer' than the other, so that was it. I didn't say anything, but what was 'obvious' to me was that the one speaker he was trying to sell, a high-order stand-mount 2-way, 'clearly' sounded like a woofer and a tweeter working separately, whereas the one the customer seemed to prefer unmolested, a first-order floor-standing 3-way (I know, why compare these two?), sounded more coherent and yes, fuller in the bass, so of course the other speaker thrust more 'detail' at you more and could be said to sound 'clearer' even if it didn't sound as natural to me. The certainty tactic seemed to be working ; after the customer registered a meek protest, I decided I had to leave the room when he began letting his preference be swayed by the salesman's greater apparent confidence. I'll mention that the only reason I went into this shop, which I generally avoid even though I can walk to it from my house, was to meet with an Audiogoner who was buying a cable from me. That's karma for the bricks-and-mortar store for ya! But I did go home having purchased a $42 tweak...]
I've learned I can't always care so much what others say they hear. It's not a matter of trust ; I trust Albert Porter implicitly both to be entirely forthcoming and to assess sonic qualities (his appraisal of the tubes he sent me to try out jibed pretty much exactly with what I heard). But I told him when I bought the Porter Port that I didn't sign on to the cryo'd-outlet bandwagon in theory - to me, it's more likely there were other reasons in play if he heard an improvement. I trusted Stehno's hearing and opinions enough to take up his recommendation on auditioning a speaker cable (through purchasing it, I might add) which is now my reference. Also Psychicanimal, we've confirmed many of the same basic findings tweaking our 1200's with the KAB stuff, but I've told him flat-out I can't accept it when he says his audio-buddies can hear those same improvements when he plays his system for them *over the telephone*. Again, I think other reasons for such an impression are much more likely. (BTW, I don't personally find it beyond imagining that there might be some audible differences among various models of outlets, mostly because I'm willing to believe some variation in connection integrity could exist, maybe as well as conductor robustness, that could affect current capacity under high demand.)
Anyway, about the reason you give that cryo could lower an outlet's resistance: I addressed this above, but I'll do it again in more focused detail here (and in case you couldn't read my post that far :-)
Let's ignore all the wiring from the power station to the utility pole transformer and from the pole to the house. Let's just talk about the wiring from the breaker panel to the outlet. Let's assume this wiring has some resistance per foot we'll call X, and is 30ft. long yielding a total resistance of 30X. Let's also assume that the conductors inside our outlet have that same resistance X per foot, or X/12 for the one inch of conductor we'll say is in there. Ignoring the final five feet represented by the AC powercord and everything before the breaker box, our components are seeing a total resistance presented to their power supplies of 30X + X/12.
Now, let's assume that if we cryo the outlet, its resistance drops from 1/12X to zero, becoming a perfect superconductor for that one inch of powerline pathway (obviously an impossibility, so this is better than a best-case scenario in real life). This means the total powerline resistance under our definition is now just 30X. This is about the same thing as if we had simply shortened our 30ft. in-wall wiring run by one inch, or a reduction of 1/360 or under .3% of the total powerline resistance seen by the components' power supplies (and remember, this is for a totally non-resistive outlet, much better than I suspect can actually be achieved by cryo in real life). The outlet's connection integrity has stayed the same. Again, I ask: why should we think this trivially minor drop in the powerline resistance will cause such an effect on our components' power supplies' performance as to be clearly audible at the speakers? I think a better explanation is needed - or more likely that one doesn't exist (well, it does exist, but it doesn't have anything to do with the metal inside outlets, it has to do with the gray matter inside heads). But heaven knows I'm no electrical engineer, so if something is fundamentally amiss with my reasoning about this resistance argument, please somebody set me straight.
BTW, I'm curious to read further thoughts from both Eldartford and Stehno at some point here... |
Zaikesman: I am quite confident of my hearing (and unlike you, I have actually heard the differences under what I consider to be pretty controlled, long term conditions) so I'm sorry to say that there is nothing, read nothing, than can "shake my faith". I've been describing the differences for the better part of two years with a far greater number of people having tried (that's kind of important isn't it?) the tweak agreeing with me than disagreeing with me. The simple fact is that there are pretty substantial audible differences between what one would assume are very high quality outlets even when they are not cryoed. This is a pretty unbelievable concept for a lot of people as well, along with power cord performance, ic and speaker cable performance, etc. etc. That cryo is controversial is not really much of a surprise.
With the exception of cryoed outlets that I've bought, I've spent maybe the sum total of $100 U.S. having cabling cryoed locally. If it screwed my system up or did nothing, I'd be the first to admit it and post it here. I have no hidden agenda in terms of convincing people to cryo their cables or receptacles other than to present a cost effective idea for improving the sound from their system.
Kind of like you recommending the Fluid Damper Tweak for the Technics table. Except this costs even less.
As to "one reason", lower resistance is going to be a positive for audio system performance and cryo does that. There's your reason. Improved power transfer or signal transfer=improved sound. Simple as that. There are some (and they appear to be in the very small minority) that have tried cryo that don't like what it does. I can accept that as they may simply prefer a different "type" of sound or presentation. So be it. I've made the comparisons, I've posted my findings and, as I stated above, the great majority of people who have done the same seem to be on the same page with me.
So really, why should my faith be shaken? |
Hdm: Cure for my skepticism? You're a bigger optimist than I thought! (Especially after the Eldartford and Stehno experiences above...What does it take to shake your faith that this tweak might not be everything you thought?) But I'll tell you what: convince me of why a cryo'd outlet ought to make my system sound better in theory - just one reason that makes sense is enough - and I'll do it (minus the fridge business).
P.S. - These old two-prong outlets don't have a green groundwire inside (just 2 black and 2 white), so I got a separate groundwire today (12ga.), should be able to install PP tomorrow...Anyone here have any tips on how best to check for proper grounding of the box (it's metal) without frying my ass? (Not that some of you probably wouldn't enjoy that about now... ;^) |
Zaikesman: There's a cheap cure for your skepticism after you've installed and run your Porter Port for 3 or 4 months. And that is to simply buy a stock, non-cryoed "Porter Port" (a slim line non-plated 8300 I believe-model # should be on your box), burn it in on your fridge for a couple of months and then replace the Porter Port with it. Cost: about $20. Then again, just to be absolutely fair, you should burn the Porter Port in on the fridge too! |
[Ahem. Sorry again for the 'novel' here, folks...]
Hdm: I agree that it would seem self-evident that if switching to a cryo'd outlet could make an incremental improvement, then switching more than just one outlet within the system would presumably make a greater improvement. In my own case, since I don't really buy into this concept and am not therefore so curious about it as to expend large sums or much time investigating it, and since the outlets that came installed in my Power Wedge Ultra are obviously of much better physical quality than my old wall outlet is, the one outlet at the wall is all I'm going to replace. As I indicated before, if I hear an improvement I won't be terribly surprised given the lousy state of my old outlet - but of course if I do, there's no way in my circumstances I'll be able to attribute that to cryo per se. As promised, I will post my anecdotal impressions here, but nobody, including myself, will want to draw any grand conclusions from that.
One thing, though - above you say, "So do the results so far invalidate my (or other peoples' positive) experiences? Not in my opinion, I'm quite comfortable with what I have found and what I hear (whether it be psychological or not!)." And Eldartford says, "Stehno...As I said in an earlier post, there is a 50 percent chance of guessing right, or wrong, so one guy's test doesn't prove much, one way or the other."
I feel this is fundamentally incorrect. I'm compelled to point out, about Stehno's results, that had he succeeded in correctly identifying the cryo'd outlet based on his auditioning, it is true that the skeptics such as myself would have (rightly) maintained that since he had a 50/50 chance of doing so anyway, this would not have provided any supporting evidence that cryo makes an audible improvement in this application as advertised. However, the reverse is not true in the same way!
The skeptics' argument starts with the assumption that no real audible difference probably exists to be heard. Therefore, if someone claims to hear a difference and is proven correct in their identification, it can be based on nothing more than chance and psychology until enough blind-testing data is amassed to give the results statistical weight.
The argument of the cryo-advocates, on the other hand, is based on just the opposite assumption: that real audible differences do in fact exist, that we should be able to hear them, and that the improvements are significant and worthwhile. Therefore, if they can't be heard by a believer (as was apparently the case with Stehno's auditioning), something other than mere testing probability must be invoked to explain that failure, *despite this being only one trial*. This takes us down the slippery slope of resorting to wondering about all sorts of possibly-invalidating variables in the testing (see Lak 6/1 "In my opinion it can all be system dependent...There might also be an issue with how clean the AC power is including the noise on the AC line"), but the bottom line in this case is that Stehno reported easily hearing improvements attributed to cryo with the same system/powerline/ears/etc. in the past.
So, excepting day-to-day variability - something the cryo-advocates seem to assume is insignificant next the obvious improvements allegedly wrought - this one result should be enough to raise serious questions in objective observers' minds about the possibility of psychology playing a central role here. Although Stenho's results by no means conclusively disprove the audibility of cryo for outlets in all circumstances (and as I wrote about above, I find the design of the 'tests' themselves leave much to be desired), the two sides of this testing coin are *not* equivalent, due precisely to the differences in the claims made, and simple probability should play only a minor role in the outcomes if the cryo-advocates are right about its obvious efficacy.
Maxgain: You said:
"Zaikesman, so if anyone hears an improvement from a cryo treated outlet in your opinion they are deluded and foolish? But if a guy tube rolls for weeks that's science. Oh brother! Wow. I bet it would take several years of A/B comparisons to determine which of two pairs of IC cables "sounds better". I'm just glad you seem to enjoy your system. It shocks me that you own a tube amp at all. Are you sure that it sounds better than your old amp? It could all be in your head? But of course you did an A/B."
1) 'Deluded' possibly, but 'foolish' no (although I never actually said either thing) - as long as that individual is happier with their sound, who am I to complain? Yes, I would like to see both more modesty about some of the claims made and a more satisfying technical explanation of why a cryo'd outlet ought to sound better, but we're not exactly endangering lives here, just spending discretionary income however it pleases us. My main point is that a lot of the casual auditioning procedures that I'm seeing described as allowing people to arrive at their positive conclusions about the cryo'ing of outlets are just not capable of supporting the level of certainty portrayed.
2) The tube-rolling process, at least in my case, comes much closer to what I consider fairly reliable evidence for drawing conclusions and basing decisions on. Yes, I A/B tubes extensively before feeling pretty comfortable that I have a handle on most of what's changing, to what degree, and how important that is. Same with amps. Same with interconnects, where I also do bypass tests using the tape loops to compare interconnects A and B vs. no added interconnect at all, to see which model is the more faithful to its input. This is an extremely revealing and much less subjective method than only doing conventional listening for determining interconnect fidelity ; everyone should try it sometime (and not only with interconnects, but preamps themselves can also be bypass-tested, something addressed in an archived thread I started).
3) Maybe a lot of things about me would "shock" you, I don't know. But to me it makes a lot more sense that changing tubes - an active device within the audio pathway - would be audible than temperature-treating an otherwise-fine AC outlet. (And as I detailed before, that's independent of whether or not cryo actually functions as advertised in the technical sense, due mostly to the tiny fraction of the AC powerline pathway the metal bits in an outlet represent, plus a few other reasons such as the nature of the signal it carries, the fact that cryo doesn't address contact integrity, etc. that I broke down above. It also makes more sense to me that an aftermarket AC powercord could make differences like I've heard.)
Or to put it in terms of "shock" as you say, it doesn't shock me that different tubes sound different, and it doesn't shock me that Eldartford couldn't hear a difference between two otherwise-identical outlets where one was cryo'd - but it does surprise me just a bit that so many ostensibly intelligent and perceptive audiophiles apparently see no need to question themselves for thinking they hear differences in an area which they can't come up with a plausible technical explanation for, and they seem so ready to dismiss even the possibility of its being primarily psychological in nature. But at least you admitted that you "can't say it's the cryo or not" (and Hdm indicated he didn't care if it was psychology or not) that's responsible for your enthusiasm, and I will certainly go back and read through your blow-by-blow account on the other thread as you recommend.
But before you walk away shaking your head, know that yes, personal enjoyement of music and sound is primary with me as I assume it is with you, but I also place a high value on truth - both in terms of trying to figure out what is truly going on and being truthful with myself about my ability to do so (the 'truthfulness' of sound aside, a separate can of worms). I don't mind saying "I don't know" or "I can't hear it", or admitting my impressions could mostly be "in my head", bcause at this level and these days, high end audio is all about small subjective changes IMO. Of course all these small changes can be aesthetically important to an attentive listener, but I also feel that if any perceived change has a basis in reality, there will be an explainable cause for its action. We may not always know that reason, but it will exist. So the reasons given for the action of tweaks must be examined, and if they're found to be wanting in logic or technical explication - or absent altogether - the very real phenomenon of psychology's impact on auditory perception must be considered, if the truth is important to us.
In the case of cryo'd outlets the psychological explanation makes the most sense to me, and absent someone giving me a good technical rebuttal to my arguments against the likelihood of audibility regarding cryo'd outlets from above, I doubt I'll change my mind about that even if like my Porter Port as much as much as you do, again for reasons I've already listed. But no matter what I think about the sound of the Porter Port, I won't extrapolate this to form prejudices about cryo in all possible system applications (despite whatever my results might seem to portend for the trustworthiness of the cryo-enthusiasts), both because I know my 'test' won't be good enough, and because other uses for cryo might make more sense to me in theory. And that's the truth, Ruth. :-) |
Thanks, Maxgain. I guess that means I win the outlets!!! Boy, the things I have to make up just to win something around here.
Actually, if you're going to take that nice attitude, perhaps I should re-install the cryo'ed outlet for a few more days just to see if a bit of magic occurs.
The question is, would I actually have the courage to report my findings if in fact I hear increased sonic benefits?
-IMO |
Stehno,
I don't think you need to worry about saving face at all. You went for what was a difficult test. I said it before that my feeling is that they need to be burned in and in the system longer. The IEC may burn in quicker due to a smaller mass of cryo'd metal.
As long as everyone is happy, with what they're hearing that's what counts(even Zaikesman).I want to thank Hdm,Albert Porter, Lak, Allan Kafton and who ever it was(I can't remember your name at the moment) here on AgoN that loaned me their Audio Dharma for their help in getting me closer to the music. I also want to congratulate Ed for at least giving it a go and to Stehno for his bravery under the microscope. Did I leave anyone out? Oh. And to Zaikesman for putting up with so much abuse and being a good sport about it. |
Stehno: Glad you had fun. I originally wrote my review here of the World Power in July/02. Prior to that I experimented with different receptacles for about 12 months. In a "mix and match" (different receptacles running at the same time in the same system) situation, I actually made what I now consider to be erroneous conclusions. There was a time (in the mix and match phase) where I considered the Arrow Hart to be a better receptacle than the Hubbell 8200/8300 series (I didn't have any experience at that time with the Hubbell 5262/5362). Only when I ran the same receptacle everywhere did I realize that the Hubbell was better. The interactions will blur your results and have you scratching your head. It's easy to make mistakes or come to the wrong conclusion without consistency throughout the system.
Keep us posted on your new acquisitions. I have a new Furetech iec inlet arriving shortly and am going to have it cryoed before I pop it into my line conditioner. I'm confident it will do good things, as I've had very good luck with cryo (all of my cabling and CD's have been done), but the Furetech on its own should be a pretty major sonic improvement over the nickel plated standard fare that's in the conditioner now. |
Hey Hdm, my experience was positive too! Just ask me. :)
Several things that cross my mind regarding the test:
1. Although highly, highly unlikely, as I recall, Hdm stated earlier that he was quite certain which outlet he marked, but still not 100% certain that he marked the right one. I'm sure he did, but there's still the remote 0.1 percent chance he did not.
2. I did not give the second outlet more than about 14 hours of burn-in. I suppose it's remotely possible that something could have changed had I left the second outlet burning in for another day or so. I could still try this, but if I were to and then did hear a difference, nobody would believe me anyway, so I probably will not do so.
3. Perhaps in my case or in any case, it just might have been a better or perhaps easier test had the outlets been the non-nickel plated versions.
4. About a month ago, (one week after upgrading to my cryo'ed IEC connector) I received my newer versions of Foundation Research LC-1 and LC-2 in-line passive power conditioners. The older versions were rated by Marty DeWulf in Bound for Sound last August as the best he's heard and he purchased the review samples for his big rig. These latest versions are multiples of 2 or even perhaps 3 times the sonic benefits of the previous version DeWulf reviewed. I mention this only because somebody above just posted something about some line conditioners possibly having an affect on the outlets.
As the reader can see I'm really reaching here to save face.
Nevertheless, I recently ordered some additional cryo-treated IECs, plugs, and outlets (all the non-plated type) because of the sonic benefits I received from the one IEC connector (when I was not anticipating any benefits). And those should arrive in a week or so.
Interesting and yet humbling test.
-IMO |
Hdm,
So true...at least a few of us are happy with cryo'd outlets :-))!
Best regards... |
Well, at least everyone has been honest!
As Zaikesman has pointed out, there are lots of variables here and both "tests" (as well as everything I have done) may not be particularly scientific.
So do the results so far invalidate my (or other peoples' positive) experiences? Not in my opinion, I'm quite comfortable with what I have found and what I hear (whether it be psychological or not!).
But this excercise clearly does show (at least in my opinion) something that I wrote here a few years ago in my review of the World Power receptacle. And that is that if you are using multiple receptacles within a system, while a sonic change may be detected, it is difficult to really ascertain the true character of any receptacle. Also, any of the experimentation I have done involved living with the same receptacle throughout the system (wall and line conditioner-so at that time it was 3 receptacles, all identical) for a few months and then inserting new receptacles. For me, it was much easier to hear differences with my system in this situation as you listened to the same system (and music) for a long period of time before making a change. In my experience, under these circumstances, changes for good or bad are pretty clearly audible. Just a couple of thoughts, whether they be scientific or not. As I've said to Zaikesman before, even if he does replace his receptacle at the wall he is only part of the way there, as he isn't going to really be able to make a judgement until he replaces the recepacles in his line conditioner as well. And that is more work than most people want to do. |
