Hdm, I've reached a conclusion regarding the supposed cryo-ed and non-cryo-ed outlets.
To whom should present my findings? |
Yes, I'm still interested, Hdm. And Eldartford has my address. |
How 'bout sending me that worthless bit of snake oil? I'll take it for a test drive. I'm currently using FIM audio-grade non-cryo-treated outlets.
-IMO |
Any results yet? I recently installed my first cryo-treated Hubbell 20amp IEC (from Jena Labs) onto my passive in-line power conditioner that connects to my amplifier.
This cryo-treated Hubbell 20amp IEC replaced my stock non-cryo-treated Hubbell 20amp IEC connected to my passive in-line power conditioner.
I'll save the results 'til later.
-IMO |
Dmoffitt, both are Hubbell 20amp IEC connectors. The one from Jena Labs is cryo-treated.
-IMO |
Maxgain, I would tend to agree with your statements. I only came across this thread earlier today and without careful reading it seemed as though some overly complicated 'A/B'ing was about to occur.
With my little test case, I have three Foundation Research LC-1 and LC-2 passive in-line power conditioners. One for each component. Each with a Hubbell IEC connector (LC-2 has a 20amp IEC Hubbell).
I simply replaced the stock 20amp Hubbell IEC with a Jena Labs 20amp cryo-treated Hubbell IEC two. Took about 20 minutes to install. I noticed a bit of improvement immediately. However, within about 20 hours of burn-in time the performance gains became quite substantial especially in the higher frequencies. The cymbals just took on their own air and as if to become completely(?) seperated from any associated percussions.
This $80 mod was surprisingly far above barely audible sonic improvements.
-IMO |
Thanks for the update, Maxgain. BTW, nice system and clean install you have there.
-IMO |
Now, now, Eldartford. If you were truly objective in your observations (are any of us really?), you would also allow for the following potential scenarios/conclusions associated with your findings:
1. Your hearing is not what you think it to be.
2. You are not the scientist you think you are.
3. Your equipment is not what you think it to be.
4. The product tested was not cryogenically treated.
5. You had too much chili the night prior to the testing.
6. Eldartford really does not exist. He is only a figment of our imagination. (Hey, it's a possibility!)
I'm not saying any of the above are true or not true, but any one or any combination of the above are very distinct possibilities and if mentioned would at the very least demonstrate greater objectivity on your part.
-IMO |
Eldartford, hopefully my previous post was taken tongue-in-cheek. At least that was the intention. Sorry for any offense.
But it is interesting that you noticed no difference. My experience with cryo-treatment only started two weeks ago and that was with just one 20amp cryo-treated Hubbell IEC connector from Jena Labs for my amplifier. And I was quite surprised at the improvements.
-IMO |
I think I stated in a previous post that I noticed barely audible improvement immediately after installing the one cryo-treated ICE. It was not until perhaps 48 hours later (24 hours of system uptime/burn-in) that I noticed the surprising improvements.
There were no other changes to my system at all within days of before, during, or after this install.
-IMO |
Is this a test? Hdm, I'd be happy to try the outlets. But first let me share the electrical setup I have:
I have three dedicated lines going to two seperate FIM non-cryo-treated outlets. One outlet has been split so that my 20 amp line (amplifier) is plugged into the bottom receptacle and a 15 amp (cdp) is plugged into the top.
This outlet used for the amp and cdp is ungrounded at the outlet.(just not connected the grounding wire)
The second FIM outlet is a 15amp grounded line used for the preamp.
In addition, I've consistantly noticed the biggest electrical-type sonic improvements when changes are made to the amplifier's line/connectors/conditioners.
With that said, Hdm, if not done already, would you have a problem my severing the contacts between the lower and upper receptacles for the purposes of this test?
If that is not a problem, then I'll send Eldartford my address.
If you do not prefer my altering the outlets to maximize the differences, I can still A/B compare with the preamp outlet. But the differences (if any) simply would not be as evident.
-IMO |
Hdm, Do I have to determine which set of screws are cryo-treated also? Well, okay. :)
All plugs are 15 amp styled into the wall. Only my LC-2 has a 20 amp IEC connector at the amplifier end.
I'll send Eldartford my address. |
Thanks, Eldartford. I received the outlets Friday evening and just installed one of them about 1 hour ago (Sat. 8pm pst).
I broke the middle contact bridges in order to allow connections for my two dedicated lines to that one outlet. (top is a 15amp line for preamp, bottom is 20amp line for amplifier). So two of my three components have the potential to reap benefits, degredations, or nothing from the outlets.
I listened for about 20 minutes. My current outlets are the FIM's (which are made by WoodenHead) and I will say I heard some differences in those 20 minutes. But I won't say for better or worse as I have not yet performed an A/B comparison between the two shipped to me. And thus far I've only listened to a couple of 20 and 30 year old recordings.
Somewhere in the next few days, I'll swap in the other outlet. In the meantime, my wife is trying to steam open the envelope that contains the answer.
I'll keep you posted.
-IMO |
Does the fact that these outlets did not come with connecting screws for the bottom mean anything?
Why are they missing?
Are the one set of extra screws and contacts cryo-treated?
Is it safe to assume the upper and lower outlets are both burned -in?
Man! It's like an oven in here. Would somebody PLEASE open a window?
-IMO |
Hdm, my previous post was mostly tongue-in-cheek.
My intention is to leave the one I installed in for about about a week and then swap in the other for another week or so. |
Yeah, I'm really quite surprised at the almost mass hysteria of some of those guys.
You were quite diplomatic I might add.
-IMO |
Generic update.
It's now been 4 days since one of the outlets has been installed. I won't say which one I installed first.
But you know, it probably would have made sense to listen to outlet A first because outlet B is the one that is probably cryo'ed. But then again, that would have been exactly what Hdm was thinking when he labeled these, so he probably labeled the cryo'ed outlet A. But then Hdm just might think that the tester might think that too, therefore, he would have labeled the cryo-treated outlet B. But then again, if Hdm is deeper still, he would have ...,. I gave up on that one.
I mentioned in my last post that after about one hour of burn-in and 20 minutes of listening, I had noticed some very minor improvements.
By Monday evening(after 12-16 hours of burn-in), sonic improvements were fairly substantial. Especially in comparison to when the outlet was first installed last Saturday evening. And the benefits even appear to improve just a bit more over the last 48 hours.
This is quite surprising from an outlet that has supposedly been burned-in. I would not have expected this. However, I've always received the biggest sonic benefits from tweaking the amplifier's electrical over the other components. Since my amp is plugged into the lower outlet which perhaps had less usage because that is the outlet that came without the screws installed. I'm reaching... but that might explain the 12-16 hour (equipment powered on) burn-in time.
By no means am I implying that I must be using the cryo-treated outlet. It could be the non-cryo'ed outlet and yet it is still better than the FIM outlet it replaced. But I would have my doubts about that.
But the sonic improvements that I am hearing appear to be along the same lines as when I installed my cryo-treated IEC connector to my amplifier's line conditioner. Just not quite to the same degree.
In the next day or so, I will install the other outlet and I obviously will have to burn it in at least 48 hours before making any real determination can be made.
At this point the possibilities are at least narrowed down to one or more of the following:
o That Hdm's outlets could be identical (both cryo'ed or both not).
o That one of Hdm's outlets is clearly superior to the other.
o That at least one if not both of Hdm's outlets is clearly superior to the FIM outlet it replaced.
-IMO |
I just read the email and yes Eldartford's labeling is correct. Interesting...,
Psychic, I had a feeling somebody was breathing over my shoulder the past 10 days or so.
-IMO |
Eldartford, I could think of better things to do than swap outlets in and out. :)
What got me excited was when I installed a cryo-ed IEC connector about 6 weeks ago and could not believe the improvements. Especially since I've had this cryo-ed IEC from jena labs laying around for over a year before I installed it. Obviously I did not think it would make any difference or I would have installed it much sooner.
It was shortly after that, that I stumbled upon this thread.
At this time I still know not which outlet I am using, but my hunch would be that it's the cryo'ed version.
Some older or lesser quality cds I listen to have been on the verge of sounding a bit tizzy in the cymbals as Hdm mentioned his experience here. But no such problem with the better recordings.
Had I known that these were nickel-plated and were 15 amp outlets (my amp is 20 amp) I probably would have passed on this test. I sold my nickel plated PS Audio Power Ports for the FIMS just over a year ago. With regard to the 15amp outlet, as Hdm must know by now, electricity is nothing to fool with.
But hey, I'm happy to participate.
Although I'm still curious as to why the need for an extended burn-in period with this first outlet.
-IMO |
No problem, Alex. But you may notice, I intentionally started off both updates as 'generic'. Meaning that I had no intention of sharing specifics until I was confident that my testing was complete.
This would be my second experience with a cryo-treated product. The first was replacing a 20 amp hubbell ICE connector with an identical one that was cryo-treated thru Jena Labs. I was amazed at the improvements there. And like I said in an earlier post, I had that cryo'ed IEC connector sitting in a drawer in my toolchest for about 18 months before I installed it. That inaction should at least give some indication toward what I previously thought about cryo-treated hardware.
-IMO |
Zaikesman, I see you let your prozac prescription run out again. :)
I'd have to rank your post right up there along side War And Peace! For I too could not finish reading it. But it's not like I didn't try.
I agree with Maxgain, try it, you'll like it.
-IMO |
Generic Update II.
This afternoon I installed the second outlet. I let it burn-in for about an hour or so and then listened for about 20 minutes before heading out to watch a soccer game.
Initial 20 minutes seemed to provide a slightly almost richer(warmer) sound than the other outlet but still providing what appears to be just a tad more detail in the top end than I remember from my FIM outlet.
I thought that perhaps this outlet could be exactly like the first one if a 24-48 hour burn-in is required like the other. Then I thought that this second outlet might eventually be better.
Later this evening I powered on for a few more hours and listened for about 30 - 45 more minutes. It actually seems to sound worse with time.
Although I really need to give it a couple of days (just in case any burn-in is necessary), I am fairly convinced at this point that this second outlet is not cryo-treated.
Then again, I'm not really looking forward to this nice long weekend listening to this particular outlet. At least not in it's current state. Maybe I'll give it 'til Sunday afternoon.
-IMO |
Thanks, Maxgain. I guess that means I win the outlets!!! Boy, the things I have to make up just to win something around here.
Actually, if you're going to take that nice attitude, perhaps I should re-install the cryo'ed outlet for a few more days just to see if a bit of magic occurs.
The question is, would I actually have the courage to report my findings if in fact I hear increased sonic benefits?
-IMO |
I won't say here which one is which but the first one I listened appears to be the cryo'ed version.
Both add a bit of silvery tizziness over the FIM outlets (probably due to the plating). And because of this, it also gave the initial impression that perhaps both were cryo-treated or at least more revealing than the FIM outlets.
However, the second outlet did not seem to improve at all over the next few days and only presented a somewhat overly bright presentation.
With the first outlet, cymbals took on a bit more air of their own, became more pronounced, and more pristine, with an extended decay. The tizziness actually seemed less intense with this unit than with the second.
And lastly, the first outlet provided a bit more air at the top end that allowed me to hear more of the room acoustics in which the recording took place.
Surprisingly, the differences were only about 50% of the improvements received when I installed the 20 amp cryo'ed IEC connector on my amp. Especially since the outlet affects two components (each with their own dedicated lines) whereas the IEC connector is only connected to the amp.
And now for the envelope please...., (this could be embarassing you know).
-IMO |
I'm going to have to confer with the judges here. The one that I selected as the cryo'ed version is NOT the one that Eldartford labeled as cryo'ed according to the secret envelope.
If I did not just have the one experience with the IEC, I'd have no problem with my conclusion. But the outlet I identified as cryo'ed seemed to provide sonic benefits along the same lines as that IEC connector.
Hdm, please send me an email with the unique indentifier you provided to distinguish the two.
-IMO |
Hey Hdm, my experience was positive too! Just ask me. :)
Several things that cross my mind regarding the test:
1. Although highly, highly unlikely, as I recall, Hdm stated earlier that he was quite certain which outlet he marked, but still not 100% certain that he marked the right one. I'm sure he did, but there's still the remote 0.1 percent chance he did not.
2. I did not give the second outlet more than about 14 hours of burn-in. I suppose it's remotely possible that something could have changed had I left the second outlet burning in for another day or so. I could still try this, but if I were to and then did hear a difference, nobody would believe me anyway, so I probably will not do so.
3. Perhaps in my case or in any case, it just might have been a better or perhaps easier test had the outlets been the non-nickel plated versions.
4. About a month ago, (one week after upgrading to my cryo'ed IEC connector) I received my newer versions of Foundation Research LC-1 and LC-2 in-line passive power conditioners. The older versions were rated by Marty DeWulf in Bound for Sound last August as the best he's heard and he purchased the review samples for his big rig. These latest versions are multiples of 2 or even perhaps 3 times the sonic benefits of the previous version DeWulf reviewed. I mention this only because somebody above just posted something about some line conditioners possibly having an affect on the outlets.
As the reader can see I'm really reaching here to save face.
Nevertheless, I recently ordered some additional cryo-treated IECs, plugs, and outlets (all the non-plated type) because of the sonic benefits I received from the one IEC connector (when I was not anticipating any benefits). And those should arrive in a week or so.
Interesting and yet humbling test.
-IMO |
TheAudioTweak, I've toyed with the idea of cryo-treating my rack (just the rods and nuts) but I'm not sure where I would go to have such a thing done. I would think that cryo-treating a steel-framed rack would/could provide additional benefits.
Thanks for the encouragement, Zaikesman. And good question.
-IMO |
Zaikes. As you know, I'm in disgrace. And I have the perfect response for all of my enemies who have conspired against me in this endeavor. I just haven't thought of it yet. :) (just kidding of course).
Seriously though, I remain a very committed believer in tweaking the electrical for sonic improvements. I've witnessed too many very real improvements to believe otherwise and I certainly cannot explain why.
This was a humbling experience to falsely read these two outlets. I'll admit I was a bit cocky going in knowing that I had the most resolving system I've heard to date. I actually thought it would take me all of about 40 minutes to determine which was which. In fact, I was almost naive enough to declare which was the cryo'ed outlet without ever installing the second one.
As I stated earlier, it would have been perhaps a better test to use non-plated outlets. To more easily distinguish any tizzyness from perceived benefits. Or perhaps, it's best with the plated versions for just such a reason as this.
I am still curious why I perceived better sonic benefits after a few days of burn-in. And I barely gave the second outlet 14-16 hours of burn-in time. Again, that is with my amp (the component where I always obtain biggest benefits from tweaks) plugged into the lower receptacle and the cdp in the upper receptacle. As I stated earlier, the screws were missing from the lower receptacles which would lead me to believe they were perhaps used less than the upper receptables, if at all. I really should install the second outlet again and let it burn-in for a few more days just for my own edification.
At the very least I've learned that even though this is just a hobby and a very enjoyable and even serious one at that, there are always credibility issues in every endeavor. At the very least it's taught me not to be so cocky or even reckless, and I need to be more thorough and methodical if I wish to maintain any credibility. I wondered why Eldartford took such a long time before he came to a conclusion. Now I know.
-IMO |
FWIW, Last Friday evening I installed my cryo-treated Hubbell (non-plated) 20 amp wall outlets for every component and noticed a very nice improvement after only two hours of burn-in.
I'll spare the details but in short, the improvements were on the order of only perhaps 50% of the improvements noticed when I replaced my amplifier's Hubbell 20 amp IEC connector with a cryo-treated version of the same make and model.
On Saturday, I installed 2 Marinco and 1 Hubbell cryo-treated wall plugs on the ends of my passive in-line conditioners and then installed two cryo-treated Schurter 15 amp IEC connectors on the other ends of the remaining two line conditioners for the cdp and pre.
Did not notice any improvement here. The Schurters are of inferior build quality to the standard Hubbell IEC's and will be replaced soonish with 2 cryo-treated Marinco IEC connectors.
-IMO |
Sherod, I have the FIM 880's up for sale.
S23chang these are not the same hubbell outlets prior to cryo-treatment. How can I tell the difference without A/B the outlets quickly? That would have been a question I could have answered quickly and confidently a few weeks ago. Today, I would still answer a question like that exactly as before, but now I dare not say quickly and confidently. :)
-IMO |
