Stehno: As the sender of the outlets, I know that #4 and #6 are not true.
That being said, Ed has drawn his conclusions and so be it. One thing I do have slight problem with is that Ed, in this situation seems to be doing the listening in a re-configured system that is quite a bit different than that which he normally listens to, and then doing quick A-B comparisons. I would feel more comfortable with comparisons being made in a system and room that is identical to which the tester normally listens to. I also feel that quick switching (sepecially within the context of a system that the listener is unfamiliar with) is less than ideal and that the system should be listened to for a considerable period of time fully powered up, perhaps even 2-3 days with one receptacle and then switched over to the other. Ideally, as I've said before, but not possible in this case, comparisons should be made with a system drawing entirely (no mix and match) from one type of receptacle. I don't consider myself to be a true scientist, but there are a lot of variables here.
I'd be curious, Ed, if it is easy for you to do, to compare either of the outlets to the stock outlet you are using to see if you could discern any difference between your stock and what I sent you. If it's too much trouble, don't bother.
But, I'm comfortable with Ed's conclusions and would only point out that one can argue just as vociferously that his conclusions are just as "psychological" as those arrived at by the pro cryo camp. Kind of an endless circle of an argument. At least we've gone through the process. |
Just to clarify things Ed, my suggestion regarding playing things for a few days did not have anything to do with the cryoed outlet needing to "warm up", but had more to do with the fact that your system for this test has changed, even if it is minimal, and the subsequent change in sound due to that change (even without a change in outlet) may be something you have to adjust to. Under these circumstances, it might be adviseable to listen for longer periods of time(even if it's 10-15 minutes) to adjust to those changes, then perhaps listen to the same piece of music on the different outlet right after that. How about having your wife listen?
Good luck and keep us posted. Even if you hear no difference, I'm happy you've done this and don't feel that anybody should be "beat up" here. We all have to come to our own conclusions. You're to be commended for the experiment. |
Ed: When you are finished with the receptacles, if you want to send them to Stehno for some testing, that would be OK with me as long as Stehno then forwards them back to me after he is finished.
It would be interesting to see if Stehno can identify any differences in the outlets, as he would have no way of knowing which was which as they come from you (one box is marked cryo but there is no indication on either receptacle, could put them in the same boxes they came in-can't even remember if I shipped the 2nd one in a box, or choose not to-a true blind test). I do, however, know which one is definitely cryoed and for the sake of true science, could inform a couple of other members prior to Stehno's "test" and see if he correctly identifies the cryoed outlet. |
Ed: If it's easier, just send the receptacles (I certainly don't need the extension cord or boxes) to Stehno without the box that the one outlet came to you in. As you point out, anyone will have a 50% chance of identifying the cryoed versus non-cryoed. Before I sent the cryoed unit off to you, I did something that would allow me to identify it as the cryoed one anyway, so I'll be aware of which one it is and be able to confirm whether someone has identified the cryoed unit in a listening test. Stehno, where are you?
E-mail your address to Ed and prepare to be snake oiled! Perhaps these receptacles can do an Audiogon tour of duty! |
Stehno, there may be a problem in that both these receptacles are 15 amp versions. If you have a 20 amp male plug on your amp or Foundation cord, it will not fit the receptacle. If you have a 15 amp plug on either, you will be able to use it on your amp/CD receptacle. You may only be able to use these on the preamp line.
That being said, these receptacles have not really been in use for a while and I don't see much use for them in the immediate future, so, what the heck. Ed, send them off to Stehno, and Stehno, feel free to break the tabs off for separate wiring (if you don't have a 20 mps male). You're missing one set of screws, but you can simply change the screws over from one receptacle to the other. |
Definitely didn't do that; one of those receptacles has been cryoed. After all this, it did get me to thinking that I may have sent two cryoed units to Ed (these were spares just sitting around as my preference is for non-plated outlets-these have nickle plated contacts), but I've re-hashed how I came about having these and am 99% sure that only the one is cryoed. It will be interesting to hear what Stehno comes up with.
Those cryo threads get pretty heated; this is no joking matter. Hehehe! |
Ed: I thought you were going to mail them on to Stehno. If Stehno still wants to do it, that is OK by me. |
They are the same receptacle of course. Ed may have even inadvertently gotten them mixed up! But the cryoed unit is easily identified by something I have done to it. It will be really embarassing for us cryo fans if you can't idenifty it Stehno! My suggestion is to do lots of listening for a week or so with one receptacle and then use the other one. In that situation, my experiences are that the differences are easily idenifiable. I'm not so sure about this quick A-B switching back and fourth when something new is introduced into any system. |
No set-up! I just e-mailed Stehno. Maybe someone else will have to have a shot at these! |
Stehno: One outlet I sent to Ed only had one set of connecting screws. I'm assuming he took the outlet with both sets of screws and removed them so that both outlets are identical to you. That means that there could be some confusion with respect to which screws are cryoed and not cryoed; ie. you could be listening to a cryoed outlet with non-cryoed screws and vice versa. Personally, I doubt whether that could have much of an effect on the outcome. I had not used either outlet in a very long time and can't even recall where exactly I had them in use. I believe Ed ran them on his refrigerator for a few weeks, but not sure whether he did each half of each receptacle. If there's any doubt, you could simply pop each one on your fridge or freezer with 3 days or so on each half and I think you'd be fine. Frankly, I'd just go ahead and use them at this stage. Obviously with your wiring situation, you'll need to use both sets of connecting screws with each outlet. Have fun and see if you can hear the difference.
Ed: just out of curiousity, seeing that you sent both outlets to Stehno with only one set of screws in each, did you mark the receptacles at your end before sending them off to identify the cryoed one? |
Stehno: Great-it's hard to get that tongue-in-cheek cheek stuff sometimes when it's in writing. Thought some of those ungrounded circuits of yours might of fried your air conditioning or something! |
Thanks Ed. You are correct on all counts! As it turns out, when I sent the 2nd receptacle to Ed, it only had one set of screws (just because I had previously been using it that way, not to differentiate between the receptacles-I made other markings on the cryoed receptacle to differentiate it). But I can tell you now that the extra set of screws has been cryoed. As I said above, I doubt if this will have much of an effect on the outcome as my gut feeling is that it is the cryo of the power contacts themselves that has the bulk of the effect, but Stehno may want to make note of those screws and use them only on, say, the upper half of each receptacle to keep things consistent. |
Hi Stehno: I have no idea which one you're using, as I never labelled them A or B; it was Eldartford that did that. When you're done, though, I can tell you which is which based on a couple of distinguishing marks I placed on the cryoed outlet before shipping to Ed.
FWIW, the outlets that you have (Hubbell 8200's) are not my first choice (and are clearly no longer in use by me) because I feel the nickel plating adds a somewhat more "forward" sound and a very slight bit of zing or distortion, but many people still like this outlet, or its 20 amp version the 8300, over the non-nickel plated 5262/5362 that I am using now. Albert Porter's 8300's are somewhat unique for a hospital grade as they have unplated contacts as well. But compared with other receptacles with both plated and unplated contacts, the nickel plated Hubbells are still very smooth and refined.
It sounds like you may have the cryoed one in use; if you don't and can hear a difference when you install the 2nd one, you're really in for a treat. |
Glad you're having fun Stehno. Obviously, even though you have a 20 amp line for the amp, the power cord on it has a 15 amp male plug. As you are probably aware, the abilities and ratings on 15 amp and 20 amp receptacles (at least from all manufacturers I know of) are identical, so you are in no electrical danger. In fact if you are using a 15 amp male plug, the 15 amp Hubbells are unique in that they have different power contacts than the T-slotted 20 amp versions (the only manufacturer to do this that I have seen) which offers significantly more contact area on the neutral side of the male plug than that which would be obtained with a 20 amp version. So for most audiophiles (if the contact on the neutral side makes a difference) the 15 amp receptacle may well be the superior version.
FWIW, in my opinion, the stock Hubbell 8200/8300's with nickel plating would eat the PS Audio for lunch, as the layer upon layer of nickel that PS Audio supposedly adds should be detrimental to the sound, not positive. As I've stated here before, I find the Hubbell 5262/5362 with straight brass contacts to be more natural sounding and relaxed than the 8200 you have right now, but it's clearly a subjective thing. Although I've never tried the FIM, the 8200's you have right now, even in stock non-cryoed form are an excellent receptacle-you may even be listening to the non-cryoed one! |
Zaikesman:
Just a couple of points:
1) with respect to power cords, your position on shielding would almost lead one to believe that the benefits derived from aftermarket cords are predominantly or entirely due to shielding. This flies in the face of unshielded cords (I have no shielded cords presently in my system) which offer better performance.
2) Cryo treating (of both cables and outlets) does reduce resistance. The facility where I had my cables done measured resistance (with a very simple Ohmeter I believe-it was definitely not a state of the art piece, but showed differences nonetheless) on both my cables and receptacles that they were doing before and after the treatment because they in fact were skeptical; they do primarily industrial cryo on things like drill bits, etc. In the case of the outlets, resistance following cryo was unmeasurable. Cable resistance following cryo was not unmeasurable but was reduced in every case following the treatment.
Good luck with your new receptacle. I'm sure you will enjoy it. |
Stehno: I'm not sure many others will be able to take advantage of using those receptacles now that the tabs have been broken, but perhaps someone else wants to try them out. Perhaps the best way is to check your results against Eldartfords A-B identification in the sealed envelope and then I can confirm the correctness of that identification by either privately e-mailing you (in the event that someone else wants to try them) or simply posting the info (with respect to how the cryoed outlet is marked) in this thread and having you confirm it.
That is, if you hear a difference between the receptacles. |
Actually, after a bit of thought, it might be an idea just to present your findings comparing the receptacles before opening Eldartfords envelope, and then do that, as well as get the info from me on the markings? I'm open to other suggestions as well, although I'm sure we won't make everyone happy. |
Well, at least everyone has been honest!
As Zaikesman has pointed out, there are lots of variables here and both "tests" (as well as everything I have done) may not be particularly scientific.
So do the results so far invalidate my (or other peoples' positive) experiences? Not in my opinion, I'm quite comfortable with what I have found and what I hear (whether it be psychological or not!).
But this excercise clearly does show (at least in my opinion) something that I wrote here a few years ago in my review of the World Power receptacle. And that is that if you are using multiple receptacles within a system, while a sonic change may be detected, it is difficult to really ascertain the true character of any receptacle. Also, any of the experimentation I have done involved living with the same receptacle throughout the system (wall and line conditioner-so at that time it was 3 receptacles, all identical) for a few months and then inserting new receptacles. For me, it was much easier to hear differences with my system in this situation as you listened to the same system (and music) for a long period of time before making a change. In my experience, under these circumstances, changes for good or bad are pretty clearly audible. Just a couple of thoughts, whether they be scientific or not. As I've said to Zaikesman before, even if he does replace his receptacle at the wall he is only part of the way there, as he isn't going to really be able to make a judgement until he replaces the recepacles in his line conditioner as well. And that is more work than most people want to do. |
Stehno: Glad you had fun. I originally wrote my review here of the World Power in July/02. Prior to that I experimented with different receptacles for about 12 months. In a "mix and match" (different receptacles running at the same time in the same system) situation, I actually made what I now consider to be erroneous conclusions. There was a time (in the mix and match phase) where I considered the Arrow Hart to be a better receptacle than the Hubbell 8200/8300 series (I didn't have any experience at that time with the Hubbell 5262/5362). Only when I ran the same receptacle everywhere did I realize that the Hubbell was better. The interactions will blur your results and have you scratching your head. It's easy to make mistakes or come to the wrong conclusion without consistency throughout the system.
Keep us posted on your new acquisitions. I have a new Furetech iec inlet arriving shortly and am going to have it cryoed before I pop it into my line conditioner. I'm confident it will do good things, as I've had very good luck with cryo (all of my cabling and CD's have been done), but the Furetech on its own should be a pretty major sonic improvement over the nickel plated standard fare that's in the conditioner now. |
Zaikesman: There's a cheap cure for your skepticism after you've installed and run your Porter Port for 3 or 4 months. And that is to simply buy a stock, non-cryoed "Porter Port" (a slim line non-plated 8300 I believe-model # should be on your box), burn it in on your fridge for a couple of months and then replace the Porter Port with it. Cost: about $20. Then again, just to be absolutely fair, you should burn the Porter Port in on the fridge too! |
Zaikesman: I am quite confident of my hearing (and unlike you, I have actually heard the differences under what I consider to be pretty controlled, long term conditions) so I'm sorry to say that there is nothing, read nothing, than can "shake my faith". I've been describing the differences for the better part of two years with a far greater number of people having tried (that's kind of important isn't it?) the tweak agreeing with me than disagreeing with me. The simple fact is that there are pretty substantial audible differences between what one would assume are very high quality outlets even when they are not cryoed. This is a pretty unbelievable concept for a lot of people as well, along with power cord performance, ic and speaker cable performance, etc. etc. That cryo is controversial is not really much of a surprise.
With the exception of cryoed outlets that I've bought, I've spent maybe the sum total of $100 U.S. having cabling cryoed locally. If it screwed my system up or did nothing, I'd be the first to admit it and post it here. I have no hidden agenda in terms of convincing people to cryo their cables or receptacles other than to present a cost effective idea for improving the sound from their system.
Kind of like you recommending the Fluid Damper Tweak for the Technics table. Except this costs even less.
As to "one reason", lower resistance is going to be a positive for audio system performance and cryo does that. There's your reason. Improved power transfer or signal transfer=improved sound. Simple as that. There are some (and they appear to be in the very small minority) that have tried cryo that don't like what it does. I can accept that as they may simply prefer a different "type" of sound or presentation. So be it. I've made the comparisons, I've posted my findings and, as I stated above, the great majority of people who have done the same seem to be on the same page with me.
So really, why should my faith be shaken? |
Zaikesman: It should be noted that there are some people (Bob Crump among them) who have reported that they do not like the results of cryo. We also have Stehno's observation, positive on the iec inlet but actually negative on the outlet (sorry Stehno!), so Stehno is perhaps still up in the air. But it is difficult (at least in my experience) when you are working with multiple/different outlets, and I am the first to admit that I made mistakes under the same circumstances.
It should also be pointed out that it is probably very easy to have bad cryo that may result in thermally shocking and perhaps damaging items (the key, at least to my understanding, to good cryo is very slow ramp down and very slow ramp up) and that, at least on Audiogon recently there have been a number of companies (and I use that term loosely) promoting cryo that, to me, definitely lacked credibility.
I am either deluded or have just experienced good cryo I guess. The outlets I have had done were done by Alan Kafton at Cryogenics International, and I now have a cryo vendor locally at a small family owned heat treating company so have actually been able to drop my stuff right into the unit (which does not look much like some of the wonky photos of cryo equipment being touted on Audiogon!) and then remove them 48 hours later when they are still on the cool side.
In any event, you will find detractors as well as proponents for cryo and the debate will rage on. Your final remarks in your last post are appreciated. |
Stehno: I'm going to repeat this again just because I think many people do not really understand it. To get an absolute read on what any receptacle (cryoed or uncryoed) is all about, it is imperative, in my opinion that you run the whole system off exactly the same receptacle or receptacles. I was convinced (for a few months actually) a few years ago that the Arrow Hart 8200 was a better receptacle than the Hubbell 8200/8300 series because I was too cheap to run ALL 8200/8300's in my system. When I did do that it became apparent to me that the Hubbells were better (smoother, much more refined, less forward in the midrange and much more natural).
I am speculating a bit here because I have no experience with the FIM, but from the little I do know, it has a reputation for being a "darker" sounding, more laid back receptacle, which either of the 8200's (cryoed or not) you have cannot be accused of. I wouldn't describe the 8200/8300 as aggresive, but it's probably more aggressive than the FIM. My guess is that the FIM you have would be more similar to a non-cryoed Hubbell 5262 or 5362 or the non-plated (non-cryoed) 8300's that Albert Porter uses.
In my opinion, properly cryoing the 8200 or 8300 (or any receptacle for that matter) gives you a blacker, quieter background, more detailed midrange, more extension and at the same time a cleaner presentation at the frequency extremes. What you described in the high frequencies as being "better" (decay, etc) with the non-cryoed unit is (once again in my opinion based on a bit of experience with this stuff) the slightly "noisier" presentation of the non-cryoed unit combined with a bit of distortion. It's a "zingier", more exciting presentation that is a bit impressive at first (quite detailed, midrange a bit forward, etc. especially after living with the FIM) but ultimately, in my experience, shows itself to be less "truthful" and fatiguing. That is the problem with 1) quick comparisons as compared to living with a receptacle for 2-3 months and becoming accustomed to what it is really doing and 2) combining 2 receptacles (the FIM and the Hubbell 8200/8300) in one system when those receptacles have very different presentations.
My advice to you obviously, when you get your new outlets is to make sure that you're running the whole system on them and eliminate the FIM from the equation. That way, you'll really be able to get a take on them. |
Yes, I will pack it in Labtec, but, with all due respect, I have never in 2-3 years of posting about outlets said that I hear dramatic changes in an outlet every few hours, or every 2-3 months, so please don't put words in my mouth that have never been there. Debates rage about DBT as well, and you certainly could not describe the experimentation I've done as DBT. If Stehno identified a difference, then it is only a partial failure as compared to Eldartford's complete failure, but as the naysayers say, it is all psychological anyway.
That's it, I'll sign off on this issue and refrain from posting anymore. |
