Zaikesman, So if anyone hears an improvement from a cryo treated out let in your opinion they are deluded and foolish? But if a guy tube rolls for weeks that's science. Oh brother! Wow. I bet it would take several years of A/B comparisons to determine which of two pairs of IC cables "sounds better". I'm just glad you seem to enjoy your system. It shocks me that you own a tube amp at all. Are you sure that it sounds better than your old amp? It could all be in your head? But of course you did an A/B.
Four days of burn in on a fridge is probably the problem. I have installed cryo treated Hubbell 8300's from Alan Kafton(which are plated) that were burned in on a Audio Dahrma in the systems of two freinds. There is no tizzyness, the space opens up,the bass goes deeper, the highs are more extended, and the dynamics improve.All this happens right away and just gets better over the next day or two. This again, is repalcing contractor grade outlets that cost 68 cents. (I know "it's not scientific")
Burn in of a cryod outlet takes time. As I mentioned before the top half of my Porter Port wasn't used for an extended period of time(the jumpers are not broken and my front end has been run off the bottom half for at least a year and a half with both the CD player and the pre left on). Mine was "cooked" on an Audio Dharma which I think is the way to go. I plugged the front end into the top half and it sounded very bright(tizzy?) and the bass was a bit wooly. This is what these things sound like when they need more burn in. If these outlets have sat around for an extended period of time they need a real burn in again to be "scientific". You do believe in burn in Zaike? You can't A/B that though. Have fun tube rolling. Science......Maxgain walks away shaking his head. |
In my opinion it can all be system dependent. There might also be an issue with how clean the AC power is including the noise on the AC line. |
Stehno...As I said in an earlier post, there is a 50 percent chance of guessing right, or wrong, so one guy's test doesn't prove much, one way or the other.
What I take away from this is:
(a)...(as I said before) I made a serious effort to see if I could hear any effect and can no longer be accused of not listening.
(b)...If there is any effect it is definitely not the dramatic "jaw dropping" improvement that some folk suggest. |
Zaikesman, Have fun with the new sound of music from your system. Be patient. It takes a while to settle down.
All I care about is results. No I didn't get all scientific when I changed to Alberts outlets. I can't say it's the cryo or not. I can say that that damn outlet makes music happen here. I do trust Albert's opinion. He has tried the same outlet both ways. He has a rig that can resolve a bit better than a boom box don't you think? I do respect what Hdm has done as far as listening to many different units and giving us his knowledge.
If you need to go back to the thread "Albert Porter need 50" and read my daily blow by blow. There is someting very special about that outlet! |
I just read the email and yes Eldartford's labeling is correct. Interesting...,
Psychic, I had a feeling somebody was breathing over my shoulder the past 10 days or so.
-IMO |
No set-up! I just e-mailed Stehno. Maybe someone else will have to have a shot at these! |
|
I'm going to have to confer with the judges here. The one that I selected as the cryo'ed version is NOT the one that Eldartford labeled as cryo'ed according to the secret envelope.
If I did not just have the one experience with the IEC, I'd have no problem with my conclusion. But the outlet I identified as cryo'ed seemed to provide sonic benefits along the same lines as that IEC connector.
Hdm, please send me an email with the unique indentifier you provided to distinguish the two.
-IMO |
I won't say here which one is which but the first one I listened appears to be the cryo'ed version.
Both add a bit of silvery tizziness over the FIM outlets (probably due to the plating). And because of this, it also gave the initial impression that perhaps both were cryo-treated or at least more revealing than the FIM outlets.
However, the second outlet did not seem to improve at all over the next few days and only presented a somewhat overly bright presentation.
With the first outlet, cymbals took on a bit more air of their own, became more pronounced, and more pristine, with an extended decay. The tizziness actually seemed less intense with this unit than with the second.
And lastly, the first outlet provided a bit more air at the top end that allowed me to hear more of the room acoustics in which the recording took place.
Surprisingly, the differences were only about 50% of the improvements received when I installed the 20 amp cryo'ed IEC connector on my amp. Especially since the outlet affects two components (each with their own dedicated lines) whereas the IEC connector is only connected to the amp.
And now for the envelope please...., (this could be embarassing you know).
-IMO |
Oh, good heavens, Hdm and Stehno, with all due respect, it's just a bloody outlet test not an issue of national security!
Well? |
Actually, after a bit of thought, it might be an idea just to present your findings comparing the receptacles before opening Eldartfords envelope, and then do that, as well as get the info from me on the markings? I'm open to other suggestions as well, although I'm sure we won't make everyone happy. |
Stehno: I'm not sure many others will be able to take advantage of using those receptacles now that the tabs have been broken, but perhaps someone else wants to try them out. Perhaps the best way is to check your results against Eldartfords A-B identification in the sealed envelope and then I can confirm the correctness of that identification by either privately e-mailing you (in the event that someone else wants to try them) or simply posting the info (with respect to how the cryoed outlet is marked) in this thread and having you confirm it.
That is, if you hear a difference between the receptacles. |
Hdm, I've reached a conclusion regarding the supposed cryo-ed and non-cryo-ed outlets.
To whom should present my findings? |
I can appreciate that you were unconvinced before trying it out, John. But even in the case of that IEC connector, had I done the exact same 'test' myself, I would draw no conclusions because:
1) there was no opportunity to repeat an A/B test once the connectors were swapped
2) there could always be uncontrolled variables between the original vs. new connectors concerning crimping/soldering/oxidation issues affecting connection integrity
3) there was an inevitable time lag in between audition opportunities while the work was being done
4) even allowing for a low level of interest in this swap going in, just the mere fact of finally having done the work and invested the time has the potential to create a biasing expectation that *something* will 'change' when listening resumes
5) you *were* exposed to positive propoganda about cryo before trying it yourself
6) experience tells me that when it comes to the sort of subjective sonic alterations we as audiophiles often assign to tweakage (i.e., generally unmeasured or even unmeasurable, often subtle or elusive and difficult to repeat with consistency, open to interpretation and preference as to whether any changes reported represent actual improvements, heard by some and not by others, usually not test auditioned with the rigor of controlled or blind procedures, and often requiring a process of 'belief-formation' over time in order to fully convince ourselves of their worth), there is ample motive and opportunity for psychology to play a leading role.
Regarding point #6, I see elements of many of those potential pitfalls in your own reporting on your audition progress, but please don't take that as criticism or think I'm trying to single you out somehow. I'm actually not a big proponent of blind testing (because I think it creates pitfalls of its own) and don't expect audiophiles working with their own systems at home as a leisure activity to don white lab coats. And 'scientific' analysis of one's audio system is largely beside the point anyway, which ought to be enjoyment of music with a little enjoyment of gear and tweakage on the side, not splitting the atom.
But I do think we also ought to try and be as honest as we can with ourselves when exhortations to spend money and incessant attempts at raising of our levels of dissatisfaction are involved. I've made many little adjustments or modifications to my system that I've convinced myself improve the sound, but being totally honest about things, I'd have to say that if someone snuck in during the night and put everything back the way it was, there's at least an even money chance that I'd never pick up on the difference just by listening. I mean, there are many days I can turn on the system and start listening, and have it sound as if just such a scenario may have happened while I was out, so much worse than what I remember does the music sound, while on other days I can do the same thing and think "Damn!", that sounds so freaking good compared with what I was expecting.
Most days of course it just sounds the same and I don't think about it, but these things can strike at any time - just during the last week or so my system has sounded vaguely disappointing to me about half the times I've listened. Who knows why? I'm sure it - or I - will snap out of it eventually (maybe it's just the health of my ears, the pollen count or something), and I'm just as sure this same kind of thing happens with all of us once in a while. My point is that 'improvements' on the level of most tweakage IMO fall within the 'margin of error' inherent in everyday life variability, so I don't like to get too dogmatic or overly certain about these things. I'm not trying to be a scientist when I listen, but I do try as best I can to use a scientist's level of skepticism and awareness in making honest assessments of my reactions to system changes.
Anyway, continue to enjoy your cryo'd AC connectors, and when you (or anybody) formulates a good technical argument explaining why they ought to make any difference in the sound, please share it with us. Until then, this one will reside securely in my "Jury Still Out But Evidence Thin" file no matter what I think I hear or don't hear when I install the Porter Port... |
No problem, Alex. But you may notice, I intentionally started off both updates as 'generic'. Meaning that I had no intention of sharing specifics until I was confident that my testing was complete.
This would be my second experience with a cryo-treated product. The first was replacing a 20 amp hubbell ICE connector with an identical one that was cryo-treated thru Jena Labs. I was amazed at the improvements there. And like I said in an earlier post, I had that cryo'ed IEC connector sitting in a drawer in my toolchest for about 18 months before I installed it. That inaction should at least give some indication toward what I previously thought about cryo-treated hardware.
-IMO |
"Science is quite often 'crap'. Setting up a good sounding system is an 'art', and as an 'artist' I question your technique. Have fun with your 'test'." - Maxgain on 4/2, about Eldartford
Hey, at least Eldartford is doing a test. You, Max, apparently aren't concerned or curious enough to be bothered - same as me. (And note that conducting a test is not the same thing as "setting up a good sounding system", which was not the goal of Eldartford's efforts in this particular episode. But I think we can assume he's already been attending to that quest over the years, same as any of us.)
"...I noticed barely audible improvement immediately after installing the one cryo-treated IEC. It was not until perhaps 48 hours later (24 hours of system uptime/burn-in) that I noticed the surprising improvements." - Stehno on 4/5
"If it takes several days of operation on the cryo outlet for a difference to be audible I can't do the test. My auditory memory is not that good." - Eldartford on 4/5
I've gotta say after digesting Stehno's updates (5/27, 5/30), I'll take my chances lending credence to Eldee's scientist over Maxie's artist any day. Sorry John, but the differences you report thinking you heard over several days and listening sessions could be due to just about anything that is temporal in nature, from powerline conditions to atmospheric ones, but most prominently including your state of mind/body and the limits of auditory memory.
"...none of the listening tests that I've seen described so far regarding cryo'd outlets do I consider sufficiently rigorous for drawing meaningful conclusions, EVEN WERE I TO DUPLICATE THEM MYSELF...I feel that most of what has been reported on the plus side in this area is probably attributable mostly to psychological causes..." - Me, on 5/29. I just thought it could use repeating. |
Generic Update II.
This afternoon I installed the second outlet. I let it burn-in for about an hour or so and then listened for about 20 minutes before heading out to watch a soccer game.
Initial 20 minutes seemed to provide a slightly almost richer(warmer) sound than the other outlet but still providing what appears to be just a tad more detail in the top end than I remember from my FIM outlet.
I thought that perhaps this outlet could be exactly like the first one if a 24-48 hour burn-in is required like the other. Then I thought that this second outlet might eventually be better.
Later this evening I powered on for a few more hours and listened for about 30 - 45 more minutes. It actually seems to sound worse with time.
Although I really need to give it a couple of days (just in case any burn-in is necessary), I am fairly convinced at this point that this second outlet is not cryo-treated.
Then again, I'm not really looking forward to this nice long weekend listening to this particular outlet. At least not in it's current state. Maybe I'll give it 'til Sunday afternoon.
-IMO |
All: Sorry to go off like this, but if you hadn't noticed, I haven't been posting to any new threads for what seems like two or three months now. So the audio pedant in me is a little on the bottled-up side. I have occasionally posted to threads I was already on, and this thread is a continuation of one of those.
Max and Stehno: The relevant part you couldn't stay awake to make it to at the end, which I'll repeat here is: If I like my new outlet's sound, I'll attribute that to the comparitively poor condition of my old one, not to the cryo treatment. This is the only honest and sensible position I'll be able to take absent a rigorous experiment which I'm not interested enough to bother doing. (But if I was to do that experiment, I expect my observations would be along the lines of Eldartford's.)
Hdm: I do believe shielding could be one of the primary factors in explaining the performance gains of aftermarket power cords, but not the only one. I think a big part of the equation resides in the fact that most aftermarket cords also offer heavier-guage conductors than do stock cords. If you compare the guages of both the in-wall and outside-the-house wiring to that of your typical stock cord, a case can be made for the last five feet's being the weakest link due solely to its lighter guage, never mind shielding. In this regard, I don't see upgrade power cords as necessarily being so genius in their execution, as much as I see the stock cords being not fully adequate for their task. The remainder of the improvements (or just differences) we hear with aftermarket power cords vs. stock cords, or the sonic differences between various upgrade models, I think would mostly lie in other areas like filtration effects, capacitance and inductance, and resonant tuning. So shielding doesn't have to be the whole ball of wax.
About the resistance-lowering issue: your assurances do not counter my argument that even if the resistance of a stock outlet can be halved through cryo treatment (you do not quantify the imrovement, so I don't know if this is in the ballpark, too low, or way optimistic, though I suspect the latter), that will make almost no global difference in the total resistance presented by the powerline to the components' power supplies. Since power cords represent a greater portion of the powerline signal path, and since even aftermarket ones are usually lighter in guage than the conductors out on the utility pole, I do not offer this argument against cryo'ing of power cords.
All again: I'm not trying to tell anyone not to cryo their outlets, not to use or buy cryo'ed outlets, or that they're crazy for enjoying them if they do. And though Max thinks I'm too uptight about the subject, I really and truly don't actually give a shit about any of this - which doesn't mean that I can't get off on thinking about the subject critically, and writing about it. I think Hdm among others understands this much about me: as long as we enjoy listening to our music, however we do it, the rest of all this hoo ha is simply for the added enjoyment of having a good, reasoned debate.
I think I've laid out a pretty good case that there is no plausible reason which can be put forth why anyone would reliably hear significant improvements by cryo-treating a new-condition outlet other than psychological ones, although obviously such psychology won't work for me personally. (And I'm perfectly willing to accept the equally-obvious corollary to that proposition, that my own psychology regarding this issue could prevent me from hearing a legitimate improvement if there was one.) My arguments are not against the efficacy of cryo in general, a topic about which I know very little, but against the likelihood that even if cryo is as effective as advertised, it still should make virtually no difference in this particular application.
I will be very interested if anyone can offer counter-arguments showing ways I might be proven incorrect in theory - in other words, describe a cogent technical argument showing why the alleged improvements resulting from cryo-treating otherwise-new condition AC outlets should be both probable and audible. I may be missing something important here, but please tell me not just the 'what' you're convinced you've observed, but the 'how' and maybe the 'why' of it that makes your observations not only possible but logical. I know you have your anecdotal arguments; you've already offered them (as well as arguments about why Eldartford's tests may not be valid). I find those arguments to be of debatable validity themselves, but that's not my point. What I'm looking for are good supporting hypothetical explanations of why I shouldn't ascribe your anecdotally positive results as being due to psychology as the only possible cause. Either that, or just admit that psychology could be it, and you don't care (as well you shouldn't, provided you're able to be honest with yourself about it), or at least admit you have no idea how cryo could audibly improve the sound of an outlet but you're still convinced it does (a position also known as the 'Mpingo defense').
Of course, failing all that, you could also just tell me to shut up and go to hell...Happy listening, Z. :-) |
Zaikesman, I see you let your prozac prescription run out again. :)
I'd have to rank your post right up there along side War And Peace! For I too could not finish reading it. But it's not like I didn't try.
I agree with Maxgain, try it, you'll like it.
-IMO |
My God Zaikesman, I nearly fell asleep while attempting to get though your novel. I never did. I have to hand it to you for being so good at being so uptight!
All kidding aside. I'm happy to hear if I couldn't get you to try one of Albert's outlets that he could pry the $38 from your tightly clenched fist. Cryo schmyo, I don't give a hoot if it was soaked in spagetti sauce at Paul Neuman's own home for a month of Sundays that makes that outlet sound so damn good!
You will kick yourself in the tightwad uptight ass for not trying it nearly two years ago! Install the damn thing, life's a' waistin'.
You WILL like it! |
WOW, Alex!!! That was one hell of a thoughtful and thought-provoking thesis! Look forward to your findings, as preliminary as they might be. |
Zaikesman:
Just a couple of points:
1) with respect to power cords, your position on shielding would almost lead one to believe that the benefits derived from aftermarket cords are predominantly or entirely due to shielding. This flies in the face of unshielded cords (I have no shielded cords presently in my system) which offer better performance.
2) Cryo treating (of both cables and outlets) does reduce resistance. The facility where I had my cables done measured resistance (with a very simple Ohmeter I believe-it was definitely not a state of the art piece, but showed differences nonetheless) on both my cables and receptacles that they were doing before and after the treatment because they in fact were skeptical; they do primarily industrial cryo on things like drill bits, etc. In the case of the outlets, resistance following cryo was unmeasurable. Cable resistance following cryo was not unmeasurable but was reduced in every case following the treatment.
Good luck with your new receptacle. I'm sure you will enjoy it. |
Thanks Eldartford for performing your tests and reporting your observations. In the other thread I laid out some of my conditions for what would constitute an ideal test design so I'm not going to recapitulate them here, but neither am I going to second-guess anything you've done or not done in this enterprise. Obviously the whole process is somewhat of a pain in the ass, and in the final analysis it is still impossible to A) ever eliminate psychology as the primary determining factor in the different results heard by different listeners, and B) to discount the simple truth that even if psychology were in fact the only causal factor at work here, cryo'd outlets (or whatever, especially relatively cheap tweaks) would still be entirely justifiable if we stipulate that the real end goal is just obtaining greater enjoyment from one's system.
I recently got a Porter Port from Albert, which I haven't installed yet because I've been too busy auditioning some tubes. I bought it in order to get a demonstrably better outlet than what I use now, one that is 50 years old and only 2-prong (I have to resort to an added 3-prong grounding adaptor), and unsurprisingly doesn't grip so well anymore. I admit up front that I don't believe the cryo treatment itself will make any significant difference in this application, but since I never seem to get around to actually buying an untreated outlet at the normal price when I'm in the hardware store, I accepted Albert's challenge as the best way to make myself quit stalling and do *something* on this front. I'll report my non-scientific results when it's been installed and auditioned. (I say 'non-scientific' because this will be an uncontrolled, non-repeatable one-time switch between outlets that will have all sorts of other confounding variables not held constant, so any differences I even *think* I hear A) cannot be considered reliable from a reporting standpoint [even by me], and B) could never be positively attributed to the cryo treatment as an isolated factor anyway.)
For whatever it's worth though, here's my thinking about why I don't find the cryo argument compelling as applied to AC outlets *in theory*:
Let's say first of all that we agree to stipulate to cryo's effectiveness as a treatment for permanently improving the electrical conductivity of the metals used in an AC outlet. This is not something which I actually know, but let's just assume that it is so for the sake of argument. To me, this could mean basically two things: A) that cryo reduces the metal's resistance to electrical current flow, and B) that cryo might also reduce some distortions to the signal waveform it passes compared to non-treated metal. Let's assume that it accomplishes both of these things, which it very well may in real life but which I don't know personally for a fact.
Then consider two otherwise-identical brand-new outlets, with one being cryo-treated and the other not. Let's say, for our thought experiment, that the cryo treatment has doubled the one outlet's conductivity by halving its resistance, while also cutting the distortions an untreated outlet imparts on the waveform by half. Even granting that seemingly significant increase in performance, the crux of my argument against cryo-belief rests on this uncontestable fact: the signal pathway represented by the metal conductors residing inside an AC outlet is extremely short, probably under one inch long.
This means that, for any new, decent-quality outlet, uncorroded and with good grip, using appropriately heavy-guage conductors, and being made from a highly conductive metal such as copper or brass, the total resistance to electrical current flow is already going to be infinitesimally small, and its added waveform distortion infinitesimally low. Its very shortness of path means an outlet will never cause more than negligable signal losses at worst, as long as we are not talking about a corroded old outlet with poor grip.
We can also contemplate that, considered as a portion of the total signal pathway that the AC powerline travels on its way from the generating plant to your components, the part represented by the conductors inside an outlet is but a very tiny fraction. Skeptics of course make this same basic argument about high end power cords, but there is at least one big difference which invalidates that analogy: shielding. Upgrade power cords can provide AC line shielding nearest the components which radiate and absorb electro-magnetic fields, while outlets do not have an impact on this parameter, whether cryo'd or not. Additionally, the differences between aftermarket power cords and stock power cords, or from one aftermarket power cord to another, are manifold in nature, involving all sorts of physical variables, while the difference between a cryo'd and otherwise-identical stock AC outlet is strictly limited to the temperature treatment's effect on the metal conductors and nothing else.
So look at the powerline situation in its entirety: assuming that the (already almost unmeasurably low) electrical resistance of this tiny bit of the AC power pathway represented by the outlet is halved through the application of the cryo treatment, the total resistance of that entire pathway will still remain for all practical purposes unchanged. The same applies to the waveform distortion. You cannot successfully apply the 'weakest link' argument to this situation, because you cannot demonstrate that the conductors inside a quality outlet are deficient for their intended function - or if they were, that the cryo treatment would render them significantly less so. If the outlet represents a 'bottleneck' at all, it is either because of the guage of its conductors or (more likely) the integrity of its contact with the plug, neither of which the cryo treatment can improve. If you have cryo'd all of your components and cables including power cords, you still cannot complain that an uncryo'd outlet would add significant distortion to your powerline, because it only represents the final inch of miles of untreated powerline, and therefore could only be responsible for an infinitesimal fraction of the distortion claimed to be caused by untreated conductors placed in this pathway. Unlike claims sometimes made for certain upgrade power cords, you cannot say that the treated outlet will somehow act as an additional level of powerline noise filtration.
Now, consider this as well: it is widely acknowledged and confirmed through controlled-audition testing that even skilled listeners largely lose the ability to reliably distinguish sonically among audio interconnects of various types if their lengths are kept artificially low, say down to only a couple or three inches (this is the basis for the Wireworld Cable Comparator's operation, and a good reason for keeping your cable runs as short as possible). And: that's taking into account that many of the biggest differences to heard among interconnects have mostly to do with things like geometry and dielectrics, not even conductor type - variables which either don't apply or don't get changed when comparing cryo'd vs. non-cryo'd, otherwise-identical AC outlets (sorry to keep harping on the 'otherwise-identical' thing, but from what I can tell a lot of what's been purported about the supposed virtues of cryo-treating outlets lets this vital point slide). And furthermore: interconnects operate directly in the audio signal path and must accurately transmit the full range of audio frequencies plus complex transient information, all at quite low amplitude levels; none of those handicaps apply to AC power conductors, which deal with a high-level near-sine-wave signal, the desired part of which consists mainly of one frequency (an uncritical 60 cycles) which by definition contains no transients and is not complex or particularly delicate, and which will be filtered and transformed before it is utilized anyway.
Therefore it becomes very tough to believe that altering the already entirely-sufficient electrical properties of a very short piece of the powerline conductor outside of the direct signal path, even if by a significant percentage when considered in isolation (though an insignificant amount when considered as a part of the whole pathway it resides within), will ever cause sonic improvements audible at the speakers. I might feel differently about this if the *whole* powerline conductor from powerplant to component could be cryo-treated, but I can't for the moment take too seriously the claims made about so treating less than one inch's worth of that distance. I might also feel differently about this tweak if cryo-treating did anything about staving-off the onset of contact corrosion within the outlet, but it's not claimed to do so.
Of course, all of the preceeding bias also constitutes a third reason, in addition to the two given at the top, why it will be impossible for me to render any meaningful judgements when I install my Porter Port. So I'll be happy just to have an outlet that grips a plug securely and doesn't require an adaptor for grounding. (And I hasten to add that I say all this as an audiophile who hears differences between cables in all system positions, who has heard the effects of powerline conditioners and uses one, and who has even heard remarkable differences among different varieties of resistors in identical values when inserted in his phonostage.)
But even if I suspect that the sound of my system gets subtly (or even markedly) better after switching the outlets, I'll blame that on the inferiority of my old outlet, and not attribute it to the high-tech treatment given my new one (although I'll not dismiss the placebo effect either). And I fully expect to retain the general opinion on this subject I have today in my admittedly cryo-virgin present state, which is mainly to say: A) none of the listening tests that I've seen described so far regarding cryo'd outlets do I consider sufficiently rigorous for drawing meaningful conclusions, EVEN WERE I TO DUPLICATE THEM MYSELF (so please no one take undue offense, because this isn't an indictment of your ears), and B) I feel that most of what has been reported on the plus side in this area is probably attributable mostly to psychological causes (which as I've stated at the top are nothing to be sneezed at, and which might as well be enjoyed by those whose listening pleasure benefits from them). Sorry true believers, but for the reasons I've detailed, I just don't feel there's any more plausible explanation to be had. |
Glad you're having fun Stehno. Obviously, even though you have a 20 amp line for the amp, the power cord on it has a 15 amp male plug. As you are probably aware, the abilities and ratings on 15 amp and 20 amp receptacles (at least from all manufacturers I know of) are identical, so you are in no electrical danger. In fact if you are using a 15 amp male plug, the 15 amp Hubbells are unique in that they have different power contacts than the T-slotted 20 amp versions (the only manufacturer to do this that I have seen) which offers significantly more contact area on the neutral side of the male plug than that which would be obtained with a 20 amp version. So for most audiophiles (if the contact on the neutral side makes a difference) the 15 amp receptacle may well be the superior version.
FWIW, in my opinion, the stock Hubbell 8200/8300's with nickel plating would eat the PS Audio for lunch, as the layer upon layer of nickel that PS Audio supposedly adds should be detrimental to the sound, not positive. As I've stated here before, I find the Hubbell 5262/5362 with straight brass contacts to be more natural sounding and relaxed than the 8200 you have right now, but it's clearly a subjective thing. Although I've never tried the FIM, the 8200's you have right now, even in stock non-cryoed form are an excellent receptacle-you may even be listening to the non-cryoed one! |
Eldartford, I could think of better things to do than swap outlets in and out. :)
What got me excited was when I installed a cryo-ed IEC connector about 6 weeks ago and could not believe the improvements. Especially since I've had this cryo-ed IEC from jena labs laying around for over a year before I installed it. Obviously I did not think it would make any difference or I would have installed it much sooner.
It was shortly after that, that I stumbled upon this thread.
At this time I still know not which outlet I am using, but my hunch would be that it's the cryo'ed version.
Some older or lesser quality cds I listen to have been on the verge of sounding a bit tizzy in the cymbals as Hdm mentioned his experience here. But no such problem with the better recordings.
Had I known that these were nickel-plated and were 15 amp outlets (my amp is 20 amp) I probably would have passed on this test. I sold my nickel plated PS Audio Power Ports for the FIMS just over a year ago. With regard to the 15amp outlet, as Hdm must know by now, electricity is nothing to fool with.
But hey, I'm happy to participate.
Although I'm still curious as to why the need for an extended burn-in period with this first outlet.
-IMO |
Stehno...Don't you think it's more fun not to know which one is Cryo'd? Make your best guess, and then open the envelope! But don't get too excited...your odds are 50/50. We would need to get a couple of dozen more folk to play the game before the results would be meaningful. |
Hi Stehno: I have no idea which one you're using, as I never labelled them A or B; it was Eldartford that did that. When you're done, though, I can tell you which is which based on a couple of distinguishing marks I placed on the cryoed outlet before shipping to Ed.
FWIW, the outlets that you have (Hubbell 8200's) are not my first choice (and are clearly no longer in use by me) because I feel the nickel plating adds a somewhat more "forward" sound and a very slight bit of zing or distortion, but many people still like this outlet, or its 20 amp version the 8300, over the non-nickel plated 5262/5362 that I am using now. Albert Porter's 8300's are somewhat unique for a hospital grade as they have unplated contacts as well. But compared with other receptacles with both plated and unplated contacts, the nickel plated Hubbells are still very smooth and refined.
It sounds like you may have the cryoed one in use; if you don't and can hear a difference when you install the 2nd one, you're really in for a treat. |
Generic update.
It's now been 4 days since one of the outlets has been installed. I won't say which one I installed first.
But you know, it probably would have made sense to listen to outlet A first because outlet B is the one that is probably cryo'ed. But then again, that would have been exactly what Hdm was thinking when he labeled these, so he probably labeled the cryo'ed outlet A. But then Hdm just might think that the tester might think that too, therefore, he would have labeled the cryo-treated outlet B. But then again, if Hdm is deeper still, he would have ...,. I gave up on that one.
I mentioned in my last post that after about one hour of burn-in and 20 minutes of listening, I had noticed some very minor improvements.
By Monday evening(after 12-16 hours of burn-in), sonic improvements were fairly substantial. Especially in comparison to when the outlet was first installed last Saturday evening. And the benefits even appear to improve just a bit more over the last 48 hours.
This is quite surprising from an outlet that has supposedly been burned-in. I would not have expected this. However, I've always received the biggest sonic benefits from tweaking the amplifier's electrical over the other components. Since my amp is plugged into the lower outlet which perhaps had less usage because that is the outlet that came without the screws installed. I'm reaching... but that might explain the 12-16 hour (equipment powered on) burn-in time.
By no means am I implying that I must be using the cryo-treated outlet. It could be the non-cryo'ed outlet and yet it is still better than the FIM outlet it replaced. But I would have my doubts about that.
But the sonic improvements that I am hearing appear to be along the same lines as when I installed my cryo-treated IEC connector to my amplifier's line conditioner. Just not quite to the same degree.
In the next day or so, I will install the other outlet and I obviously will have to burn it in at least 48 hours before making any real determination can be made.
At this point the possibilities are at least narrowed down to one or more of the following:
o That Hdm's outlets could be identical (both cryo'ed or both not).
o That one of Hdm's outlets is clearly superior to the other.
o That at least one if not both of Hdm's outlets is clearly superior to the FIM outlet it replaced.
-IMO |
Thanks Ed. You are correct on all counts! As it turns out, when I sent the 2nd receptacle to Ed, it only had one set of screws (just because I had previously been using it that way, not to differentiate between the receptacles-I made other markings on the cryoed receptacle to differentiate it). But I can tell you now that the extra set of screws has been cryoed. As I said above, I doubt if this will have much of an effect on the outcome as my gut feeling is that it is the cryo of the power contacts themselves that has the bulk of the effect, but Stehno may want to make note of those screws and use them only on, say, the upper half of each receptacle to keep things consistent. |
Hdm and Stehno....Some facts...
There is zero chance that I mixed up the outlets which I received (although I have no way, except trust, to know what I was given). I was, of course, aware of the risk of mixup, and took suitable precautions.
The screws were removed and placed in the plastic bag when I first received the outlets. I thought that the "two screw" outlet might be a way of telling which was which, although I guess Hdm did something more clever than that!
On the back of each outlet I marked "A" and "B" just in case the little slips of paper got lost.
Both sides of both outlets were "burned in" on the refrigerator. (That's why it took so long).
I am 90 percent sure that the Cryo'd outlet was the one with two sets of screws. I didn't think to note this carefully, as I didn't think the screws were significant. The extra screws were simply removed: no chance that screws were switched between outlets.
The outlets were sent to Stehno labeled "A" and "B". A sealed envelope contains the key. |
Yeah, I'm really quite surprised at the almost mass hysteria of some of those guys.
You were quite diplomatic I might add.
-IMO |
Stehno: Great-it's hard to get that tongue-in-cheek cheek stuff sometimes when it's in writing. Thought some of those ungrounded circuits of yours might of fried your air conditioning or something! |
Hdm, my previous post was mostly tongue-in-cheek.
My intention is to leave the one I installed in for about about a week and then swap in the other for another week or so. |
Stehno: One outlet I sent to Ed only had one set of connecting screws. I'm assuming he took the outlet with both sets of screws and removed them so that both outlets are identical to you. That means that there could be some confusion with respect to which screws are cryoed and not cryoed; ie. you could be listening to a cryoed outlet with non-cryoed screws and vice versa. Personally, I doubt whether that could have much of an effect on the outcome. I had not used either outlet in a very long time and can't even recall where exactly I had them in use. I believe Ed ran them on his refrigerator for a few weeks, but not sure whether he did each half of each receptacle. If there's any doubt, you could simply pop each one on your fridge or freezer with 3 days or so on each half and I think you'd be fine. Frankly, I'd just go ahead and use them at this stage. Obviously with your wiring situation, you'll need to use both sets of connecting screws with each outlet. Have fun and see if you can hear the difference.
Ed: just out of curiousity, seeing that you sent both outlets to Stehno with only one set of screws in each, did you mark the receptacles at your end before sending them off to identify the cryoed one? |
Does the fact that these outlets did not come with connecting screws for the bottom mean anything?
Why are they missing?
Are the one set of extra screws and contacts cryo-treated?
Is it safe to assume the upper and lower outlets are both burned -in?
Man! It's like an oven in here. Would somebody PLEASE open a window?
-IMO |
Blake,myself I won't be embarased at all if Stehno dosen't hear it.
I had unpluged my front end a week or so ago for a couple of days when some big thunderstorms were crusing through. I pluged the conditioner back in and let the pre amp warm up(ARC SP 9's are notorious for needing forever and a day to stabalize, mine is on all the time other than a situation like this one)for a day or so. When I put a CD into the player everything sounded very bright and the bass was a bit soft. I listened for a while and was puzzled by the sound. I then realized that I had plugged the conditioner into the bottom half of the Hubbell and not the top where it was for all the time since the installation about a year and a half ago. I made the switch and everything was back to normal as far as the sound. The top half just needs to be burned in again as I haven't used it much at all. May seem strange to some of you but it was easy to hear. At least in my system, changes to the power, be it an outlet or a power cord make more than subtle changes to the sound. |
They are the same receptacle of course. Ed may have even inadvertently gotten them mixed up! But the cryoed unit is easily identified by something I have done to it. It will be really embarassing for us cryo fans if you can't idenifty it Stehno! My suggestion is to do lots of listening for a week or so with one receptacle and then use the other one. In that situation, my experiences are that the differences are easily idenifiable. I'm not so sure about this quick A-B switching back and fourth when something new is introduced into any system. |
Thanks, Eldartford. I received the outlets Friday evening and just installed one of them about 1 hour ago (Sat. 8pm pst).
I broke the middle contact bridges in order to allow connections for my two dedicated lines to that one outlet. (top is a 15amp line for preamp, bottom is 20amp line for amplifier). So two of my three components have the potential to reap benefits, degredations, or nothing from the outlets.
I listened for about 20 minutes. My current outlets are the FIM's (which are made by WoodenHead) and I will say I heard some differences in those 20 minutes. But I won't say for better or worse as I have not yet performed an A/B comparison between the two shipped to me. And thus far I've only listened to a couple of 20 and 30 year old recordings.
Somewhere in the next few days, I'll swap in the other outlet. In the meantime, my wife is trying to steam open the envelope that contains the answer.
I'll keep you posted.
-IMO |
Stehno...Sure I will redirect the outlets to you, but I don't have an address. E-Mail to me. |
Yes, I'm still interested, Hdm. And Eldartford has my address. |
Ed: I thought you were going to mail them on to Stehno. If Stehno still wants to do it, that is OK by me. |
It's over.
I have tried the Cryo'd outlet with every kind of audio equipment that I have (no tubes) and am unable to hear, or measure, any difference between the Cryo's outlet and the plain one. The best test (IMHO) was driving two identical monoblock amplifiers with the same (mono) signal, and listening to the output bridged across the two amps. Ideally there should be no differential signal, but gain and frequency response cannot be perfectly matched, so there is always some faint differential output. The sonic quality of this differential output, (many dB down from the amplifier output) is identical when one of the amps is powered first by Cryo'd and then by non-Cryo'd outlets.
I consider my experiment a success, not because it confirms what science would predict, but because I can no longer be accused of not using my ears. I gave it a good shot.
I have packed up the outlets to be mailed back to HDM. My thanks to him for the oportunity to evaluate this tweek. |
Remember who's speakers are hanging so they are never properly time aligned. All net gains previous to the speakers would be masked by hysteresis distortion..Tom |
Acid! That explains your behavior... |
I remember once back at Brown in the 70s a friend of mine and I tricked a third friend into thinking he'd dropped acid with us. For an entire day he simply tripped alongside. We didn't own up to it until much later; he could NOT be convinced that he just swallowed an inert ink-spot! Cruel times.... |
Eldart, if you can't hear cryo treatment effects you should not even consider using a system demagnetizing CD like the Sheffield/XLO I own. Its effects are subtle but in a revealling system like mine they are very welcome... |
Psychicanimal...Got it! Frankly, your comments are indistinguishable from those who...whatever. |
Eldart: I once started a thread titled "Best upgrade ever: cryo'ed outlet for my refrigerator." Enough said. |
Group think is pertinent, but would not be so much at play as already having publicly committed to a position. Most are a surprised at how malleable people's beliefs are, but public committal typically acts like glue. |
Psychicanimal...Sure, but would you have the guts to submit to blind testing conducted by someone who doesn't subscribe to your belief?
If not, I do understand. Sometimes it is best not to test articles of faith that have great importance to us. Cold facts can be hard to take. |
