The damper, the tension wire and cantilever position

Curious that we all hope on  ''extension''  of our hobby with more members

but proposed ''interplanitary'' extension by @ terraplane8bob got no

attention at all.

Also the problem with two screws which I ''suspected'' to have somtehing

to do with tension wire is solved. Instead waiting for dovers help I simply

asked my Polish retipper who, alas, only speaks Polish. The problem

with them is when you ask  ''are you Slavic?'' their answer is ''no we are

catholic'', He uees some , probably Japanese translator so we needed

some time to understand each other. I was not sufficient brave to ask

him if he speaks Russian. However he affirmed that those (damn) srews

are for the tension wire. 

The MC's produced on Mars seem to be much better than those

produced on Jupiter. But three is no consensus about MM kinds. 

On what planet is this discussion taking place ?

@nanadric even though replies from myself are repetitive and prolix, they are are not offered with a intention to be viewed as coming from somebody who styling themselves with a usage of language that is grandiloquent.

As for the lexical content of the OP, you have stated the following, it by myself, is being viewed as a means to describe a condition you have witnessed, and one which has been created as the outcome of your experiment. 

"My observation however is that also ''deviant'' cantilevers which

nobody would buy look STRAIGHT IN DE GROOVE. Ergo:: (using ergo with a replacement word, to assist with seeing the final statement being put )

Therefore :: it is the groove which determine cantilevet/stylus position .?"

The idea being proposed, to my interpretation, negates the notion, that there are interfaces between parts in the assembly that require critical attention to the setting up, which are required to ensure the cantilever>Styli is optimised in their position and the act as a constraint, ensuring the Cantilever is restricted to function within a operational envelope. 

What the statement does seemingly attempt to suggest, is that if a Cantilever is noticeably out, as a sideways alignment, as a result of the Styli being placed in the the Groove, the observation of the return to a Centre position is a acceptable method to correct this condition. If all one wants, is to observe a centred cantilever, then this is for most with this as the interest is adequate. 

In general the centred cantilever is not all one wants, there is the want for an overall correct function of the assembly that is designed and belonging to the model of Cart'.

The Groove being able to place the Cantilever as centred to the body, is not going to be enough for most with an interest in this as a functioning device, the outcome of your experiment will most likely not offer a reassurance a fix is in place. 

The Styli being placed in the Groove, in my thoughts, is not going to be adequate to correct any other conditions present, that may be with fault, and the askew Cantilever is the indicator something is amiss elsewhere.

My advice to 'anybody' with an interest in a Cart' and who are expecting the Cart'  to function to a standard that shares similarities with the Cart', at the time it was first put to use as a New Model. It will be best practice not to acquire a Cart' that has indicators present that suggest something is now quite different to how it appears as an unused design. 

If one has other ideas for the Cart' and have a different intention beyond just experiencing it used as a tool to create a replay. A Cart' can then be considered in any condition it has been discovered to possess.      

My support from particle physiscs was ''slightly'' different than my quote.

Fermi stated ''if I could rememeber the names of those partcles I would

have been a botanist''.

But my promblem is to explain how it is  possible to get support from

particle physics but not from ''our own Dover'? I think to have found the 

reason. As we all know he owns the best everiting in collectors sense:

the best TT's, the best tonearms, the best amps, the best SUT, etc.

the best. But my insult made by  impliction of my insinuation was that

he OWNS A CART with ''deviant cantilever''. Can you imagine such thing

by one perfectionist? But I only needed help for those damn screws on

both sides of the generator, I have pretty good idea what they are for

but am not sure. Even If I was willing to destroy one of my own carts

I have no idea how to do this. Those are smal metal tubes while i own two left 

hands. So the cheapest and most smart thing to do was to ask our second

authority regarding the knowledge of analog everything. But alas the

damage done can't be restored.

 

 

 

 

pindac, regarding semantics you are at the right address. I am student of

logic, semantics and phylosophy of language for 30 years. But we are not

talking about semantics but about an experiment which can be done by

anyone. If they can't repeat the experiment this means denial of

my ''proposition'' or if they do confirmation. As you can SEE this is not

about semantics. I already have try to make this clear to you but obiviously

without succes. Do you own any cart with ''deviant cantilever''? I don't

believe this because if you deed you would repeat experiment and

not mess with definitions or explanation of words.

'deviant' (being different from an expected normal).

The OP's First Statement

"My observation however is that also ''deviant'' cantilevers which nobody would buy look STRAIGHT IN DE GROOVE. Ergo:: it is

the groove which determine cantilevet/stylus position .?"

Does not the suggestion put the notion in place that the 'deviant' aspect is quite noticeable and certainly not subtle, especially as the term "nobody would buy" is used to help describe what is being observed.

Does not the opinion formed "which nobody would buy", lean toward the notion, that this is a recollection of a experience encountered, maybe as a result of being involved in confrontation's on such a subject as a result of being a Vendor. 

As said, my focus has been on the 'deviant' reference, and there in my thought is plenty to suggest 'deviant' and 'askew' are close in description.

The OP then later states

"People start with some assertion believen it to be true and act in accordingly  with their assertion. My was that any deviation from  straight meant defective cantikever".

At no time has it been presented that the 'deviant' has been referencing a 'deviation from straight' as being the witnessed form of the cantilever.

To cover this as an potential meaning to the vague description being offered. It has been  suggested that a "deviation from straight", has meant a defective alignment that is noticeable on the cantilever, which is assumed to be a sideways movement, as this is the one that is most likely to be perceived as a self corrected condition when the Styli is placed in the Groove.

The eye will have a harder time detecting a Vertical movement on something that is already set quite different to the horizontal position, especially to a degree that is only slight in its movement from the optimised position.

A collapsed cantilever will be the most obvious when assessing the horizontal positioning and again the placing of the Styli in the Groove is not going to offer anything to suggest this condition has corrected itself.

There is references made to the likelihood of a Mineral Based Cantilever is not commonly seen showing a curve/arch in its form, along with the suggestion a curve /arch is a possible condition to be discovered in a Metal Cantilever.

Neither a Curve or Arch to a metal material cantilevers form is going to be appearing corrected when the Styli is set in the Groove.  

There has been suggestion that the 'deviation' being referred  to is noticeable and one that would be so noticeable, that it has the potential to create a situation where a Vendor would be met with a Customer that would not be willing to purchase, as a result of witnessing a cantilevers obvious 'deviation'.

The referencing the idea the knowledgeable Customer has expressed a cautiousness to continue with a sale, as a result of the likelihood, the cause of cantilever 'deviation' is from a loss of a optimised set up at other interfaces the assembly has and which the cantilever is dependent on for its own optimised function.

I have chosen to use the term 'askew cantilever' (to one side - out of line) for being the indicator other concerning conditions are likely to be present.

As said, the simple evaluation is that, other costs are likely to be incurred as a means to have the parts within the assembly investigated for how they are impacting on the alignment of the Cantilever. There is projected cost to achieve a Cart' that is once more set up as optimised and enables the cantilever to have a operational envelope, that is suited to the design. The askew cantilever is a indicator that there is a secondary requirement  post sale, creating a road a customer is potentially not wanting to inherit as part of the journey to acquire a particular model of Cartridge.

From a personal standpoint, I do not fear buying a Cart' with an obvious fault, I do my due diligence put into practice and the forming an evaluation after having consultations, leaves me with a clear understanding of what I am about to put in place. I accept my ambitions for a faulty Cart' are with risks associated. I am also fully aware of the idea, the ambition may not be fruitful and ultimately be a waste of some of my monies. I also accept the idea, I am purchasing in a way that demands other monies are required to be spent to receive a appraisal and penultimately, the being informed the Donor is a satisfactory candidate for further works to be undertaken.

There is also in present markets, very few reasonable priced faulty Cart's from certain Brands Models. The very attractive trade in deals on offer for exchange models has made the donor model prices become more elevated, it does seem the influence on the price hike, is that models of interest are now being scooped up by individuals looking to buy into a Brands Cart' using a bought in faulty older model as the method using the Brands exchange policy.

    

   

I am realy sorry for ONE more post to my own thread but those numbers

forced me , so to speak, to think about them. In context with Wittgenstein.

I was skeptical about his understaning about what phylosophy is about.

The reason? His ''phylosophical investigation'' . In ''there'' he made

10000 phylosophical remarsk while in my opinion is  that an normal

person can rememer, say, 10. I also got some support from ''particle

physics'' .

Now according to Raul the main target of this forum is that teach memeber

can learn to improve listening experience.

So I thought about thiose numbers and  was able to see his numbers of post: 12307. 

But this is even more than the, say, modest 10000 by

Wittgenstain. 

The numbers in other ''function''. Instead to check my finding by simply

repetition of my ''expeiment'' Raul made the effort to count the numbers

of my posts in relation to other posts. The ressult : 37 by Nandric  from

the TOTAL of (ONLY) 58 by others. . What kind of ''argument'' is this?

I would say that this says more about Raul than Nandric. .

 

There is this ''curious'' theory that  ''NUMBERS DON"T LIE''. I WAS 

SURPRISED TO SEE HOW MANY CONTRIBUTION i MADE TO

THIS FORUM: + 4000.  But in comparisson with Rauls  12307. 

Yes Raul this thread is about me. I am damper. tension wire , cantilever and

stylus. All 4 variables work togther as myself.  There are limtless ways  to

use ''straw man'' strategy. My I remind  you abot you past? When you

bought , say, 25 cartridges and posted to Axel Schurjolz for ''refreshnemt''

without even listen to them first?  I have never seen any post of you in

wjich parts of your beloved carts are even mentioned . My quess is that

you have no idea how an MC cart looks inside. But you do often mention

LEVELS OF knowledge in Kantian  sense . Aka that you own this quality or

capability  A PRIORI. Delevered by Raul tor Raul. 

You must have at least one cart with ''deviant cantilever'' in your collection

as I do.  People start with some assertion believen it to be true and act in accordingly  with their assertion. My was that any deviation  from straight

meant defective cantikever. But I never tested tthis assertion but posted them

direct to Axel  Schurholz NOT FOR REFRESHMENT  but to get ''my cantileevr '' straight. 

You could check my new EGO by putting any of your cart with deviant cantiever

to test and THAN either DENY  OR CONFIRM my experiment.

BTW there can be only one PRIMA DONNA in our forum. You was but

at present we have one other. The fake New Zeelander. Whatever the

wine there he has, in your own terminoly, much HIHGER LEVEL OF

KNOWLEDGE REGARDING OUR hobby.. However he OBVIOUSLY

DOES NOT HAVE ANY CART WITH DEVIANT CANTILEVER SO NOT

IN THE POSITION TO DENY OR CONFIRM Nandric ''THEORY''. 

Dear @nandric  : With all respect. For me this audio analog forum main target could be that any audiophile with any knowledge level can  learn what to do to improve the listen experiences.

Maybe I'm so stupid but I don't know how can help any one to improve its day by day listen experiences to answer your thread question:

 

" 

 it is

the groove which determine cantilevet/stylus position .? "

You already answered your self in the OP: silly question. Who cares? curiosity? or really silly question? . You said it not me.

 

Btw, 37 of 58 posts in the thread came from you. No I don't need you give me any answer to my post. Appreciated.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Dear Nandric, Kennyc wrote this: "I believe that getting the stylus angle to the groove correct is paramount to good sound, but inconsistencies in manufacturing stylus to cantilever and cantilever to body(?) can cause subpar alignment.  So I'm going to use WAM Engineering to calculate via microscope the optimal angle to set my cartridges in order to get the stylus to align accurately with the groove."

I too have no idea what WAM stands for, so I just quoted the acronym.  Seems to me the company, WAM Engineering, would have to make the measurements described in kenny's post at his house, in his system.

Pindac, To check my finding you need an cart with deviation to the left or

right side from straight and than simply repeat my experiment. If you don't

get the  same result , aka straight cantilever during the play than my ''theory''

is  wrong provided the damper is not defective. If the damper is defective

you can't play an rocord. Either the cantileevr will not  move at all or it will

colapse becaiuse the damper is to sofd  (low rider. )

Whatever description of the result in the sense of denial or confirmation

will than do..

 

@nandric I have not contributed to make my place within the thread as having a upper hand.

I have been prompted to be a contributor, in relation to a ’deviant’ cantilever, that looks straight in a groove.

I myself have been wanting to see an alternative description supplied within this thread as an explanation on this subject, as my knowledge is limited to my experiences.

My experiences have been that when a cantilever is discovered askew, it raises concern, and for some who have encountered this condition, the Cart’ is sent to a professional for further analysis. 

The info I draw on to produce my offered description, is from knowing individuals who have sent askew cantilever Cart’s away for a prognosis, (not all own up to this there is a Stigma) and the regular visits I make to Web Pages that specifically show the types of condition a Cart’ can arrive with and the intrinsic work a Cart’ undergoes to correct the conditions it has had when supplied to a Technician to undergo inspection and repairs.

I am with no other knowledge, that will suggest a askew cantilever is not the manifestation of another interface part being ’out’ on its designed for optimised set up.

This statement in itself is devaluing to the product and suggests monies are required to be parted with to receive a professionals assessment.

Monies don’t have to be parted with, if the suggestion is believed the Styli being placed in the Groove is an adequate corrective measure. This as a corrective methodology, is not a method for that I am able to endorse.

A ’deviant’ cantilever, is already showing signs it is with a compromised interface, and as such is capable of working outside of the designed operational envelope, and not be able to interface with the parts is interfacing with as par the design.

I am quite unfamiliar with discussion where the idea on the table, is that a askew cantilever is able to give one confidence of being a performer that is fit for purpose.

 

Dear pindac, I am an suspicious creature and think that you invented an

difficult to ''grasp'' variation on ''strow man'' strategy. My intentions

are not hiden. Anyone can try his '''not straith cantilever'' to check my

assertion. Those who start with the whole adjustments procedure in

''static position'' obviously have forgotten the words of our first

real scientis Galileo : ''it moves''. Despite all the dangers of

Catholic inquisition. He  also was the firat who refute Aristoteles

physics who dominated western education for 2000 years.

Based on his authority. That is why back than there was no

discrimintion betweem ''authority'' and ''verity''.

Dear Lew, You should not use American abreviation by addressing 

foreigners who already have difficulty to undertsanr your eloquent

English.''As simple as possible but not simpler ''as you ever stated

to be your credo. I have no idea what WAM means. 

kennes, I don't believe I mentioned ''stylus angle'' in my thread. 4 variables

are obviously not sufficient for you. The most people can hardly handle

2 as the sentnce form prove : X is P. In place of variable X one can put

whatever name one like and in place of P as predicate varibale whatever

''property'', ''qualification'',or ''condemnation'', one want. My point was

that the cantilever must follow ''YOUR STYLUS'' in both directions: vertical

as well horizontal while this is allowed by damper's elasticity in both named

direction. If the cantileevr /stylus combo refuse to do so than either the

damper is dry out or to soft . In this case whatever shape your stylus may

have you will not get any sound from all 4 variables values, 

@nandric These evaluations being made by yourself, on the idea certain Cart's are not being effected by deterioration as a result of having a long life since being issued and used are heavily laden subjective opinion, as it is for anybody who makes their evaluations known about Cart's with a long life behind them since being new.

There is also the idea once more forming, that an effort is being made for creating a self-advantageous position. It does seem that by giving such subjective appraisal that negates the idea, flaw is developing, will assist with maintaining or even ascending the financial value of the Cart'. Adding the idea that there is also a rarity of such Cart's will always be good for the achievement to be realised.

I'm throwing cautiousness to the wind, I no longer see how this Thread has anything to do with the OP, it seems to me, that it is leaning toward the notion that a priming is being undertaken for an upcoming event, the ground is being tested for producing a convincing theory.

Attempt's are appearing to be made, to create the suggestion that Cart's with deterioration resulting from wear and tear, are worthy of having an amplified Value placed on it. Especially, if there is also the intent to add some other versions of a romanticism about the origin of the Cart' being included in a description to a party showing a interest. The question is how much value can be added, especially, if the addition of the added Value is to be seen as being converted into a asking price.  

  

 

Do WAM make house calls? How else can they succeed in your stated goal?

I believe that getting the stylus angle to the groove correct is paramount to good sound, but inconsistencies in manufacturing stylus to cantilever and cantilever to body(?) can cause subpar alignment.  So I'm going to use WAM Engineering to calculate via microscope the optimal angle to set my cartridges in order to get the stylus to align accurately with the groove.  This obviously doesn't apply to spherical styluses.  

Dear Lew, I don't remember exact what Caesar said to Briuus but by

approximation : ''ET TU, BRUTE!''. Tha is how I feel with your

''support'' for your student. Mind you you very well know who

my ''best proffesor of my life'' was despit the fact that I never have

seen him but leaned from  him by his books and articles, G.Frege

the GREAT. In similar way I try to learn from you English. I have

never forget your writer inclination and talent. To put this otherwise

I enjoyed all you post despite the fact tha deed not undersand aything you

had to say. Copicat is at present ''the method''  of lerning. Look

at all those mobile phones. There is a new definition of poverty. 

Not lack of bread but lack of I-phone is considerd as such.

Anyway I expect from you at least support against this ''fake''

New Zeelander . Whatever their wiine it has nothing to do with

HIM. 

 

Adopting me as your English professor is a situation up with which I will not put. Also, regarding NZ sourced wines, my wife has a predilection for their Sauvignon Blanc above most others. I know nothing about dampers, cantilevers, and whatnot, but the thread is amusing nevertheless, thanks to your wit.

Dear pindac, the expression ''it depends'' is short and easy to remembar and

very  smart   as reminder not to use quantifier  ALL when starting from our

own opinion. I owned  all Ikeda's FR 7 kinds. Those are from the 80is. 

Each of them was perfect in technical sense but I decided to keep F7,ez.

I also got after waiting for for 2 years his REX, the cantileveless kind.

Both are my most precious ''darlings''. No idea how he deed ''it'' but I have

never heard complaints about his dampers. In contradistinction the recent

purchased ZYX had defective damper. I ever started an thread about

IRREPARBLE carts. To my big surprise nobody was interested. My

reason was Sony XL 88D (D for diamond ). I am not sure if back than

acrilic existed so i will name it ''plastic body''. Gloed together and provided

with damping material inside to dampen resonaces. But there was no

way to get IN for any repair. So my friend Axel Shurholz, who described

this ''stuff'' as glue was not able to fix this ''wonder''. Our architect 

from Australia calld  AUSSIE declared this cart as the best he

ever owned. Mori-san made two innovations for this XL sereis.

8 form coils and internal damping. In the 80is one could buy

an Volkswagen for its price. So whatever the function of time 

may be ''deterioration'' is not  always the case. BTW also

all my Kiseki's from the 80 are much better then the ''brand 

new'' kind. The later are ''collectivly'' offered for sale while

my Agaat and Black heart are nowhere to find. 

 

 

When a Cart' is purchased for whatever the retail or purchase value, it is fundamentally a sacrificial part, 'expected' to deteriorate in performance.

How one chooses to continue with the usage of the Cart' when signs of deterioration shows is their choice. If they convince themselves that placing the Styli in the Groove is a solution to be used as a temporary correction, then this is their choice, and any unwanted knock on effects of this practice will commence being realised. 

The Cart' in use, will typically be subjected to a depreciation in value, as a result of the idea it has been used, even if the reported usage is claimed to be very low in hours, the unknowing and fragility of the device is the controlling factor, with this in mind, it is an individuals choice, for how much they want to pay for the same levels of fragility that are present across the entirety of the price range.

It is each to their own, when it comes to how much they would like to have attached, as a cost to be incurred to replay a Album, using the 1000 Hours as a guidance, a replay of a album can have an approx' cost of $1.50 - $13. There are very enjoyable experiences on offer from all Cart's, reports from users are sharing this on a regular basis.  

If the Cantilever is seen to be askew and has changed in appearance to an earlier observed alignment, especially one that was not noticeable with an askew being present. The chances are that a change has occurred to other under the hood parts, and this change to condition has manifested as a change to the cantilevers position.

An Aluminium Cantilever might endure a force and show as being curved or bent, but I am not sure if a mineral cantilever has ever been discovered with a curve formed on it.

  

About ''egos'' or members. There ara those who think that their

English is a kind of priviledge in intellectual sense. I got remarks 

as  : ''your  English is second languge.'' . My answer was 

''my English is my 5th language''. I got no answer from this

''tickheaded person''. They don't grasp that their own forum

is international. I myself  was  seen as the member of the

''German group'' (with my beloved ''der Tonearm'' and Syntax).

If someone is to blame for my English thsn our Lew.

I decaalred him as my English  teacher. so those who intend

to blame MY English should address their post to Lew. 

 

pindac, this tread is not about you nor me. So nether ego is involved. The

topic  is about ''function together of mentioned ''parts'' + LP groove.

The grammar force us to put everything in ''subject-predicate'' sentence

form but grammar has problems with ''relational'' phenomena's. Now

I am not talking about defective cantilevers nor dampers nor tension

wire. But about wat I named ''deviations''. One can see deviation of the

cantilever from ''straight'' position. If one own an +5K cart this may be

called ''shocking'' experiece  The poorer kind among us also by +200$.

But if we know that ''small deviation from straigth'' is not ''what it looks

like'' we can sleep well. The first to blame is not cantilever but damper.

We all know (?) that as ''function of time'' they can ''harden'' or 'dry

out'' or become ''weak'' or ''to soft''. We deed not yet mention ''low

riders''. But  we do remember  those phantastic Technics 205 (?)

kinds which become wortless  because of the ''soft damber. No way

to fix those. Not only ''monetary'' loss but also ''sentimental'' kind.of

sorrow.

So we have , speaking in language of formula's, 4 variables. The only

''one'' that I am not sure about are those 2 srews on the generator.

That is why I asked for DOVER'S help. But the (Dutch) New Sealand

PRIMA DONNA  feels probably ''insulted' one way or the other and

refuse to cooperate. I changed my mind about him and will not visit

him in his new country. Besides I can buy my own wine from Italy or

France. Compared to HIS  who would care  about New ZEELAND kind?

@nandric Good Luck with receiving the support from the individuals who you called for in the OP.

Maybe if I read it more intently, I would not have focused on the "deviant" cantilever section, but also realised your first sentence is a notification that your desired to have a censorship on the replies. 

One lives and learns, always read the small print.

There is a paradox to consider, that could also be referred to has having a whiff to the notion. If one is looking for the renowned to be induced to offer a commentary, if the content offered is fitting and suitable, it may be such, that the same content is used in a private presentation to underpin ones own agendas.  

Dear pindac, It is the other way round. It is called student paradox. If an

student does not understand whatever his professor has stated he will

no blame professor but himself. The professor is an genius and I am

not sufficient smart to understand him. Examples in abundace. Each

and every German know who Kant and Hegel are but hardly any have

heard about Frege the father of modern logic. I eeded to learn English

because tthe most information about Frege was in English

Take Wittgenstein as example. I have no idea what he counts as

phylosphy but in his ''phylosopical invetigation'' he wrote 10000

phylosphical REMARKS while an normal person can remember, say,

about 10. Who would expect support for such ''modest opinion'' about

human mind? 

Well I got it from Fermi ''from'' particle physics by particle physicist.

He stated;''If i was smarter I coud rememeber more of those particles''.

When I  read your post I feel like ''those students''.

Mijostyn,I have no idea where you live. Alaska? But in Holland  for ''those prices''

the TT, the tonearm as well the cart are installed by the dealer. Do you missed

all those arguments of our beloved Dover? How many  (whole) STEREO''S  he 

installed for his customers. Their rewards caused by gratude was such that

he was able to move to(Dutch ) New Sealand and enjoy ''rich live'' at distance

from the poluted USA of America, with better wine than those made in

California not to mention HOLY WATER my real reason to visit him there.

I certainly need ''some'' at  my age. As ONE can conclude from my thought s

about Hume I am not poor.  So can buy my own wine  there and be independant

from dover's hospitality consisting of  an half glas of wine. 

 

@nandric Sorry you have not been able to draw the attention of your select choice for contributors to your thread, I get the jist, that if the Maestro's are not commenting, other participation from non-reputed folk can hurt ones ambitions.

I sense your discontent with having been overlooked and take it on the chin fair and square, that as a non-reputed contributor, I have provoked a Big Ego and been dealt a blow as it it displays a retaliative bite.      

To be informed that I have no understanding that a Tie Wire has a function to position the cantilever and coil in a precision positioning to align with a magnet, is a silly statement to make. The compression applied to the Damper Material and alignment of the coil, is to be achieved by a specific tensioning of the wire and compression of the Damper Material.

As I do not build or overhaul any type of Cart's, I am limited in knowledge in these areas, but have a reasonable 'laymans' handle on the parts seen belonging to a typical assembly and the fundamentals of the intended function.

As a 'Layman' offering a description as the one stated earlier in this thread, the Tie Wire is sharing a few roles of which one is to perform as a restraint. When the wire is set to a precision tensioning, the wire will be a constraint to parts that are able to move, and enforced to function within a operational envelope.   

Setting aside your reciting of Olden Japanese designs and designers, and the construction of your inquiries and responses, I don't think our understanding of a MC Cart's operation is too far apart.

@nandric , then it is impossible for you to set up a turntable correctly or understand how a cartridge functions. I'll give you the short answer. The groove moves the cantilever above the resonance frequency of the suspension. It is not responsible for the position of the cantilever in space. 

Dear edgewear, I am very sorry to see your reaction. I very much enjoy discussion

with you. Now regarding dover I am as surprised as you are. I can't imgaine any

reason for him not to like me. Except for my reference to New  Zealand as Dutch

Zeeland, But he is an American  so he should not feel insulted by my  jokes

about New Sealand. BTW it is Zeeland . I know this Province in Holland .. 

As an  scientist he probably want to first check my finding with his own

experiment. If those don't produce the same result he maybe so polite not to

contradict my ''theory'' in order not to embarrass his forum friend,

not  

 

Meanwhile, where's Dover?

Well, I never owned Blue nor Purpleheart, so apparently I didn't know what I didn't own. How does that qualify me? Probably as an ignorant poor man.....🤣

Dear edgewear, Hume's ''proudness  of ownership'' make no sense if

one  has no idea what  all he owns. I think that he was very poor man.

Those can certainly remember what  they own. The ''abundance'' of 

 of my carts collection  is illustration. I forget to mention Shinon Red

boron.  If you look at this cart you can se ''the same parts''' as by Kiseki.

This was curiously the argument  for Alessandro to state that

Dynavector produced Kiseki's. To me this means that one could 

buy parts by Dynavector as by Benz. But ''parts'' of Kondo-san 

cart would be obvious as parts of Kiseki. This than would not 

need expanation for  the misterious Mr. Fokadu. 

Dear pindac, I think that you have no understanding of damper function

in connection with coil former. The coil is pressed against damper

with tension wire. So tension wire ''center'' the cantilever. Those two

srews on the generator are connected with tension wire, By pressing

one or the  other side the cantolever position can be changed. Aka

''corrected''. Otherwise their function would be incomprehensible,

Today my son and I checked the Agaat with ''deviant cantlever''

iby playing records. The stylus is straith in the grooves, Ergo the 

grooves center the cantllever. The coill / damper combo follow

the stylus in the groove. Those are very ''small'' presures . Try

to move the stylus /cantilever with very smal pressure to see

how ''elastic'' they are . In most cases 2 g VTF is used . This 

actully cqn;t be called ''weight''. 

Dear nandric, I was indeed wrong about the Blue and Purpleheart, which were also low impedance designs. But in the case of the 'beauty' (Agate) my memory seems to be correct as several sources on the net confirm this was a 42 ohm impedance system. For the original Kiseki's there were two different motors, so it could still be the case that both Dynavector AND Kondo were involved in their design. At least it would explain the choice of SUT's for both low and high impedance systems.

@nandric The askew Cantilever is present as a result of a change to parts that are designed to function in a particular way and are assembled to perform as a critical interface.

The askew cantilevers Styli, when in the Groove may leave the impression the askew position has corrected.

The likelihood is that the interfacing and critical function for the assembly of the parts as a optimised interface is now long passed and the present condition is best described as defunct. 

Dear edgewear, From wrong assertio or premise one can not get 

triue conclusions. Your premise  is that whole  series  Bleu is 40 Ohms 

while all are 5,2 ohms . For those Kondo san designed 2 SUT's ,

One of them is made from SILVER .Probable from 100 year old

ITALIAN SILVER. This may be the reason for Alessandro's

admiration. BTW for  this one one should be looking . Than those

40 Ohm in between and your Lazuli as well my Black heart are again

5,2  Ohm . The nr 3 SUT is made for both 5.2 as well 40 Ohm but

one need to switch  between them with ALL intermediary wire,  Not

what one would call ''pure ' or conssequent  solution . . 

 

Dear mjiostyn, I hate  mathematics my whole life and ''it'' icludes 

geomatry. So I have no idea what you are tolking about. 

Dear edgwear, As support for Nandric ''thesis'' about his and Alesandro's character

I must mention that all Blue Kiseki's , which BTW I all own are 5,2 Ohms . Two of

''Kondo's'' SUT's are made for those. The 40 Ohm kinds are an enigma to me..

But as I also mentioned (?) my Kiseki Agaat has ''deviantt cantilever''. My on

induction based argument ( from  one to ALL)  is this  same Agaat.. Despite

crooked cantilever when it really counts the beauty behave as a real LADY.

and folllows  the grooves in straight ''position''. Otherwise ''she'' could not

be described as a BEAUTY . 

The armature to which the cantilever is connected should remain symmetrically in the magnetic gap. Assuming the cantilever is installed correctly perpendicular in the armature it should remain perpendicular to the face of the cartridge while tracking the record. You always set up the cartridge by sighting the cantilever. But Lyra cantilevers should always be perpendicular to the face during play or the cartridge may not be performing at its best. The tether does not determine the angle. This is determined by the way the armature sits on the suspension. 

Dear Nandric, I know about those stories but as long as Van den Dungen remains silent we will never know the truth. It's not in my nature to serve both sides of an argument, but this might be an exception. Why?

Well, most Kiseki's (Blue, Purpleheart and Agate) were high impedance systems, which could point in the direction of Dynavector, whose systems were mostly high impedance. Probably because they used exceptionally thin coil wire, which required more turns. The Blackheart and Lapis on the other hand were low impedance systems (around 5 ohms), so different coil wire and possibly also magnets were adopted. The Kondo (then Audio Note) cartridges were also low impedance designs, so you could be right in believing that vdD asked his friend Kondo to built these top systems to his specifications. But this is pure speculation.

Dear pindac, You remind me of ''pubic servants'': why simple if complex

is possible.? My short question is what function have those two screwa on

each side of the generator? Each of my crooked cantiever was corrected

by either Axel Schurholz  or my new Polish 'rettier''. The Polish one much

cheaper because East Europeans need (more)  time to accommodate to

Western prices. If this job is so easy to do there must be some easy way to

fix the problem. ''Easy'' means ''simple''?

Dear edgewear, you may be also interested in HIS as well my ''suspicion''

about misterious  Mr. Fokadu? My is Kondo san. The reasons : he was the

only friend in Japan of Van den Dungen. They shared the obssesion with

tubed  tubed amps. Anyway it is cetrain that he designed all 3 Kiseki

transformers. . For those who ''long for an Kondo SUT'' but can't afford

one the chance to get one Kondo for aa bargain price (grin).

Alesandro think that Dynavectro made them based on the PARTS.

But ,say, Benz produce qll paarts except cantilever/styus combo.

Van den Hul buy all ''his'' parts from Benz. The other also,say 

Brinkmann. The ''problem'' with Alesandro is tha Nandric is as

self-willed as Alesandro. 

The Cart' is designed as a Sacrificial Component, where the first in confirming this, is the Styli and the environment it is to function in. It is expected by the designer, manufacturer, retailer, and end user to lose its perfection and become a inferior part.

Lesser known is whether the Armature, either formed from a Metal or Mineral, is able to maintain its pre-use properties as a result of exposure to the Styli's function within the Groove. Are the Armature materials able to resist fracture or other signs of deterioration as a result of energies being transferred through them.

Typically a Armature has a part utilised where it interfaces and is attached. Again this is one other place where a fragility is present. Again it is not common knowledge if such a interface/attachment can lose its designed properties, as a result of the connection being exposed to the energies transferred from the function of the Styli and Armature as a whole. 

A Damper will evolve in how it performs as a elastic, it will become a material that has desirable properties and will at some time lose its desirable properties for the elasticity it can offer.

The Tension Wire pretty much speaks for itself, it is supplied with a Tension applied. There will most likely be tolerances in place for the range of tension to be applied. This in itself will be a condition that can create a slight change to a sonic. The Gauge of the Tension Wire and the stresses applied to the wire whilst trying to maintain the Armature to remain within a operational envelope will at some point loosen of the Tension on the Wire.

All Cart's in general seem to have reports made about them, that a usage period has been required for the Cart' to have been 'Run In'. Some will claim a Cart' did not require a a 'Run In'.

It is generally accepted that a Damper is the material being effected by the early period of use and is the materials to become optimised in its elastic properties chosen for the Cart's design.

Is it not also possible that the Tension Wire is being impacted on by being exposed to the early period of usage and is also developing into a part that is optimised for the Cart' to perform as per the design.

If either of the above is with a proportion of correctness as a description, it leans towards the notion, the Body is the only part that is not to be detrimentally impacted on by regular use of a Cart.

It is also a possibility the Generator can deteriorate over time and not measure in the same capacity it had shown when first put into use.   

A Cart' is undoubtedly a part that is to deteriorate, it is a part expected to need replacing/overhauling as a result of usage, it is a part that can not maintain a condition once held at a previous time.

Is the commonly quoted guideline of 1000hrs usage, the only period required to be  to be considered for a Cart' to be selected for undergoing a treatment to revive the optimised performance from the Cart'? 

If this thread were able to clearly define the period of time for which a part of the Cart' will be the first to need a replacement part or attention as a service, to maintain a previous optimised working condition, that would be a useful info.          

Dear nandric, I recently had contact with Alessandro about another cartridge. He's a nice gentleman and certainly must be one of the biggest collectors out there.

To return to topic, most cartridges with skewed cantilever I've seen are bent to the left (with front view). This suggests that the arm was pulled outward with too much anti skating force. So I follow the advice of vdHul and others to use it sparingly. I have anti skating set at around 1 grams and tend to leave it there.

Again I ask you, do you also experience the behaviour of the cantilever being forced into the 'correct' position by the record groove with (very) low compliance? cartridges? 

And does this tell us anything about the pros and cons of cartridge compliance and how much of it is needed to get the best possible performance?

wolfie 62, The thread is about dampers, tension wire and position of

the cantilever. You had nothing to say about any of those. The sense

of any discussion are the ''topics'' in caus.

Dear edgewear,

I forget to mention to you in the context of Lapis  Lazuli this. There is an

italiaan admirer of Kisek's with the name Alesandro. For his Lapis lazuli

which he listed on ''audio-markt.de'' he asked 10000 euro. This anyway

imply money value as valutation of this  cart.