The damper, the tension wire and cantilever position

@nandric  Welcome Back.

Good to see you are pondering the Mechanical Interfaces within a Cartridges Assembly.

I have many discussions on this subject behind me.

It is the one subject that pretty much suggests each Cart' is unique in how it presents a signal as a result of the condition of these interfaces. 

 

@nandric Certainly no need scour through Archive Threads for my contributions.

I have and do communicate outside of this forum with some very adept EE/Engineers and Technicians who are a forte of knowledge on these subjects.

There is enough information gathered to suggest a Cart' at the time of production will have +/- tolerances allowed for as the assembly is finalised.

There is also plenty to suggest once the Cart's is in use in a particular environment and subjected to the practices of a variety of users, the variances that can develop to the assembly of parts can be very very broad.

Have a look at some of the Images supplied of Cart's that have been supplied to receive a refurb, and in many cases it can be seen the environment and attitude to the Cart' from the user, has resulted in a very undesirable condition being witnessed.

In a nut shell, New Cart's mechanical interfaces, can have mechanical interfaces that are quite unlike a New Cart's in a very short space of time.

I am an advocate of a Annual Service/Refurbish if optimum performance is the desired state for the Cart' whilst it's parts are still quite fit to perform their selected riles.   

@edgewear It was a sad day when Kilian Bakker informed his UK Customers he was not to offer his services direct with this Country.

I do have work associates who live in Holland and Eastern France nr Belgium, so a opportunity to create something may be able to be organised in the future.

It was Kilian who was the first to inform me about airborne Metal Particulate contaminating coils, and even shorting them, when the impact is catastrophic, it can pretty much become a channel loss. This is not an issue with a particular Cart’, it has potential to commence occurring from the day a New Cart’ is put to use.

At present I am very infrequent with using my preferred Cart’, (rebuilt by Kilian), when put to use, it is approx’ one Albums Side before the Damper seems to develop a elasticity that performs with an attraction, and a good hour of use before the presentation is seemingly back to its earlier self.

 

The Cart' is designed as a Sacrificial Component, where the first in confirming this, is the Styli and the environment it is to function in. It is expected by the designer, manufacturer, retailer, and end user to lose its perfection and become a inferior part.

Lesser known is whether the Armature, either formed from a Metal or Mineral, is able to maintain its pre-use properties as a result of exposure to the Styli's function within the Groove. Are the Armature materials able to resist fracture or other signs of deterioration as a result of energies being transferred through them.

Typically a Armature has a part utilised where it interfaces and is attached. Again this is one other place where a fragility is present. Again it is not common knowledge if such a interface/attachment can lose its designed properties, as a result of the connection being exposed to the energies transferred from the function of the Styli and Armature as a whole. 

A Damper will evolve in how it performs as a elastic, it will become a material that has desirable properties and will at some time lose its desirable properties for the elasticity it can offer.

The Tension Wire pretty much speaks for itself, it is supplied with a Tension applied. There will most likely be tolerances in place for the range of tension to be applied. This in itself will be a condition that can create a slight change to a sonic. The Gauge of the Tension Wire and the stresses applied to the wire whilst trying to maintain the Armature to remain within a operational envelope will at some point loosen of the Tension on the Wire.

All Cart's in general seem to have reports made about them, that a usage period has been required for the Cart' to have been 'Run In'. Some will claim a Cart' did not require a a 'Run In'.

It is generally accepted that a Damper is the material being effected by the early period of use and is the materials to become optimised in its elastic properties chosen for the Cart's design.

Is it not also possible that the Tension Wire is being impacted on by being exposed to the early period of usage and is also developing into a part that is optimised for the Cart' to perform as per the design.

If either of the above is with a proportion of correctness as a description, it leans towards the notion, the Body is the only part that is not to be detrimentally impacted on by regular use of a Cart.

It is also a possibility the Generator can deteriorate over time and not measure in the same capacity it had shown when first put into use.   

A Cart' is undoubtedly a part that is to deteriorate, it is a part expected to need replacing/overhauling as a result of usage, it is a part that can not maintain a condition once held at a previous time.

Is the commonly quoted guideline of 1000hrs usage, the only period required to be  to be considered for a Cart' to be selected for undergoing a treatment to revive the optimised performance from the Cart'? 

If this thread were able to clearly define the period of time for which a part of the Cart' will be the first to need a replacement part or attention as a service, to maintain a previous optimised working condition, that would be a useful info.          

@nandric The askew Cantilever is present as a result of a change to parts that are designed to function in a particular way and are assembled to perform as a critical interface.

The askew cantilevers Styli, when in the Groove may leave the impression the askew position has corrected.

The likelihood is that the interfacing and critical function for the assembly of the parts as a optimised interface is now long passed and the present condition is best described as defunct. 

@nandric Sorry you have not been able to draw the attention of your select choice for contributors to your thread, I get the jist, that if the Maestro's are not commenting, other participation from non-reputed folk can hurt ones ambitions.

I sense your discontent with having been overlooked and take it on the chin fair and square, that as a non-reputed contributor, I have provoked a Big Ego and been dealt a blow as it it displays a retaliative bite.      

To be informed that I have no understanding that a Tie Wire has a function to position the cantilever and coil in a precision positioning to align with a magnet, is a silly statement to make. The compression applied to the Damper Material and alignment of the coil, is to be achieved by a specific tensioning of the wire and compression of the Damper Material.

As I do not build or overhaul any type of Cart's, I am limited in knowledge in these areas, but have a reasonable 'laymans' handle on the parts seen belonging to a typical assembly and the fundamentals of the intended function.

As a 'Layman' offering a description as the one stated earlier in this thread, the Tie Wire is sharing a few roles of which one is to perform as a restraint. When the wire is set to a precision tensioning, the wire will be a constraint to parts that are able to move, and enforced to function within a operational envelope.   

Setting aside your reciting of Olden Japanese designs and designers, and the construction of your inquiries and responses, I don't think our understanding of a MC Cart's operation is too far apart.

@nandric Good Luck with receiving the support from the individuals who you called for in the OP.

Maybe if I read it more intently, I would not have focused on the "deviant" cantilever section, but also realised your first sentence is a notification that your desired to have a censorship on the replies. 

One lives and learns, always read the small print.

There is a paradox to consider, that could also be referred to has having a whiff to the notion. If one is looking for the renowned to be induced to offer a commentary, if the content offered is fitting and suitable, it may be such, that the same content is used in a private presentation to underpin ones own agendas.  

When a Cart' is purchased for whatever the retail or purchase value, it is fundamentally a sacrificial part, 'expected' to deteriorate in performance.

How one chooses to continue with the usage of the Cart' when signs of deterioration shows is their choice. If they convince themselves that placing the Styli in the Groove is a solution to be used as a temporary correction, then this is their choice, and any unwanted knock on effects of this practice will commence being realised. 

The Cart' in use, will typically be subjected to a depreciation in value, as a result of the idea it has been used, even if the reported usage is claimed to be very low in hours, the unknowing and fragility of the device is the controlling factor, with this in mind, it is an individuals choice, for how much they want to pay for the same levels of fragility that are present across the entirety of the price range.

It is each to their own, when it comes to how much they would like to have attached, as a cost to be incurred to replay a Album, using the 1000 Hours as a guidance, a replay of a album can have an approx' cost of $1.50 - $13. There are very enjoyable experiences on offer from all Cart's, reports from users are sharing this on a regular basis.  

If the Cantilever is seen to be askew and has changed in appearance to an earlier observed alignment, especially one that was not noticeable with an askew being present. The chances are that a change has occurred to other under the hood parts, and this change to condition has manifested as a change to the cantilevers position.

An Aluminium Cantilever might endure a force and show as being curved or bent, but I am not sure if a mineral cantilever has ever been discovered with a curve formed on it.

  

@nandric These evaluations being made by yourself, on the idea certain Cart's are not being effected by deterioration as a result of having a long life since being issued and used are heavily laden subjective opinion, as it is for anybody who makes their evaluations known about Cart's with a long life behind them since being new.

There is also the idea once more forming, that an effort is being made for creating a self-advantageous position. It does seem that by giving such subjective appraisal that negates the idea, flaw is developing, will assist with maintaining or even ascending the financial value of the Cart'. Adding the idea that there is also a rarity of such Cart's will always be good for the achievement to be realised.

I'm throwing cautiousness to the wind, I no longer see how this Thread has anything to do with the OP, it seems to me, that it is leaning toward the notion that a priming is being undertaken for an upcoming event, the ground is being tested for producing a convincing theory.

Attempt's are appearing to be made, to create the suggestion that Cart's with deterioration resulting from wear and tear, are worthy of having an amplified Value placed on it. Especially, if there is also the intent to add some other versions of a romanticism about the origin of the Cart' being included in a description to a party showing a interest. The question is how much value can be added, especially, if the addition of the added Value is to be seen as being converted into a asking price.  

  

 

@nandric I have not contributed to make my place within the thread as having a upper hand.

I have been prompted to be a contributor, in relation to a ’deviant’ cantilever, that looks straight in a groove.

I myself have been wanting to see an alternative description supplied within this thread as an explanation on this subject, as my knowledge is limited to my experiences.

My experiences have been that when a cantilever is discovered askew, it raises concern, and for some who have encountered this condition, the Cart’ is sent to a professional for further analysis. 

The info I draw on to produce my offered description, is from knowing individuals who have sent askew cantilever Cart’s away for a prognosis, (not all own up to this there is a Stigma) and the regular visits I make to Web Pages that specifically show the types of condition a Cart’ can arrive with and the intrinsic work a Cart’ undergoes to correct the conditions it has had when supplied to a Technician to undergo inspection and repairs.

I am with no other knowledge, that will suggest a askew cantilever is not the manifestation of another interface part being ’out’ on its designed for optimised set up.

This statement in itself is devaluing to the product and suggests monies are required to be parted with to receive a professionals assessment.

Monies don’t have to be parted with, if the suggestion is believed the Styli being placed in the Groove is an adequate corrective measure. This as a corrective methodology, is not a method for that I am able to endorse.

A ’deviant’ cantilever, is already showing signs it is with a compromised interface, and as such is capable of working outside of the designed operational envelope, and not be able to interface with the parts is interfacing with as par the design.

I am quite unfamiliar with discussion where the idea on the table, is that a askew cantilever is able to give one confidence of being a performer that is fit for purpose.

 

'deviant' (being different from an expected normal).

The OP's First Statement

"My observation however is that also ''deviant'' cantilevers which nobody would buy look STRAIGHT IN DE GROOVE. Ergo:: it is

the groove which determine cantilevet/stylus position .?"

Does not the suggestion put the notion in place that the 'deviant' aspect is quite noticeable and certainly not subtle, especially as the term "nobody would buy" is used to help describe what is being observed.

Does not the opinion formed "which nobody would buy", lean toward the notion, that this is a recollection of a experience encountered, maybe as a result of being involved in confrontation's on such a subject as a result of being a Vendor. 

As said, my focus has been on the 'deviant' reference, and there in my thought is plenty to suggest 'deviant' and 'askew' are close in description.

The OP then later states

"People start with some assertion believen it to be true and act in accordingly  with their assertion. My was that any deviation from  straight meant defective cantikever".

At no time has it been presented that the 'deviant' has been referencing a 'deviation from straight' as being the witnessed form of the cantilever.

To cover this as an potential meaning to the vague description being offered. It has been  suggested that a "deviation from straight", has meant a defective alignment that is noticeable on the cantilever, which is assumed to be a sideways movement, as this is the one that is most likely to be perceived as a self corrected condition when the Styli is placed in the Groove.

The eye will have a harder time detecting a Vertical movement on something that is already set quite different to the horizontal position, especially to a degree that is only slight in its movement from the optimised position.

A collapsed cantilever will be the most obvious when assessing the horizontal positioning and again the placing of the Styli in the Groove is not going to offer anything to suggest this condition has corrected itself.

There is references made to the likelihood of a Mineral Based Cantilever is not commonly seen showing a curve/arch in its form, along with the suggestion a curve /arch is a possible condition to be discovered in a Metal Cantilever.

Neither a Curve or Arch to a metal material cantilevers form is going to be appearing corrected when the Styli is set in the Groove.  

There has been suggestion that the 'deviation' being referred  to is noticeable and one that would be so noticeable, that it has the potential to create a situation where a Vendor would be met with a Customer that would not be willing to purchase, as a result of witnessing a cantilevers obvious 'deviation'.

The referencing the idea the knowledgeable Customer has expressed a cautiousness to continue with a sale, as a result of the likelihood, the cause of cantilever 'deviation' is from a loss of a optimised set up at other interfaces the assembly has and which the cantilever is dependent on for its own optimised function.

I have chosen to use the term 'askew cantilever' (to one side - out of line) for being the indicator other concerning conditions are likely to be present.

As said, the simple evaluation is that, other costs are likely to be incurred as a means to have the parts within the assembly investigated for how they are impacting on the alignment of the Cantilever. There is projected cost to achieve a Cart' that is once more set up as optimised and enables the cantilever to have a operational envelope, that is suited to the design. The askew cantilever is a indicator that there is a secondary requirement  post sale, creating a road a customer is potentially not wanting to inherit as part of the journey to acquire a particular model of Cartridge.

From a personal standpoint, I do not fear buying a Cart' with an obvious fault, I do my due diligence put into practice and the forming an evaluation after having consultations, leaves me with a clear understanding of what I am about to put in place. I accept my ambitions for a faulty Cart' are with risks associated. I am also fully aware of the idea, the ambition may not be fruitful and ultimately be a waste of some of my monies. I also accept the idea, I am purchasing in a way that demands other monies are required to be spent to receive a appraisal and penultimately, the being informed the Donor is a satisfactory candidate for further works to be undertaken.

There is also in present markets, very few reasonable priced faulty Cart's from certain Brands Models. The very attractive trade in deals on offer for exchange models has made the donor model prices become more elevated, it does seem the influence on the price hike, is that models of interest are now being scooped up by individuals looking to buy into a Brands Cart' using a bought in faulty older model as the method using the Brands exchange policy.

    

   

@nanadric even though replies from myself are repetitive and prolix, they are are not offered with a intention to be viewed as coming from somebody who styling themselves with a usage of language that is grandiloquent.

As for the lexical content of the OP, you have stated the following, it by myself, is being viewed as a means to describe a condition you have witnessed, and one which has been created as the outcome of your experiment. 

"My observation however is that also ''deviant'' cantilevers which

nobody would buy look STRAIGHT IN DE GROOVE. Ergo:: (using ergo with a replacement word, to assist with seeing the final statement being put )

Therefore :: it is the groove which determine cantilevet/stylus position .?"

The idea being proposed, to my interpretation, negates the notion, that there are interfaces between parts in the assembly that require critical attention to the setting up, which are required to ensure the cantilever>Styli is optimised in their position and the act as a constraint, ensuring the Cantilever is restricted to function within a operational envelope. 

What the statement does seemingly attempt to suggest, is that if a Cantilever is noticeably out, as a sideways alignment, as a result of the Styli being placed in the the Groove, the observation of the return to a Centre position is a acceptable method to correct this condition. If all one wants, is to observe a centred cantilever, then this is for most with this as the interest is adequate. 

In general the centred cantilever is not all one wants, there is the want for an overall correct function of the assembly that is designed and belonging to the model of Cart'.

The Groove being able to place the Cantilever as centred to the body, is not going to be enough for most with an interest in this as a functioning device, the outcome of your experiment will most likely not offer a reassurance a fix is in place. 

The Styli being placed in the Groove, in my thoughts, is not going to be adequate to correct any other conditions present, that may be with fault, and the askew Cantilever is the indicator something is amiss elsewhere.

My advice to 'anybody' with an interest in a Cart' and who are expecting the Cart'  to function to a standard that shares similarities with the Cart', at the time it was first put to use as a New Model. It will be best practice not to acquire a Cart' that has indicators present that suggest something is now quite different to how it appears as an unused design. 

If one has other ideas for the Cart' and have a different intention beyond just experiencing it used as a tool to create a replay. A Cart' can then be considered in any condition it has been discovered to possess.