I am still waiting for someone to explain why a cd player is superior to storing music on a hard drive and going to a dac. Probably because you all know it's not.
Every cd player has a dac. I'll repeat that. Every cd player has a dac. So if you can store the ones and zeros on a hard drive and use error correction JUST ONCE and then go to a high end dac, isn't that better than relying on a cd player's "on the fly" jitter correction every time you play a song? Not to mention the convenience of having hundreds of albums at your fingertips via an itouch remote.
If cd player sales drop, then will cd sales drop as well, making less music available to rip to a hard drive? Maybe, but there's the internet to give us all the selection we've been missing. Has anyone been in a Barnes and Noble or Borders lately? The music section has shown shrinkage worse than George Costanza! This is an obvious sign of things to come.....
People still embracing cd players are the "comb over" equivalent of bald men. They're trying to hold on to something that isn't there and they know will ultimately vanish one day.
I say sell your cd players and embrace the future of things to come. Don't do the digital "comb over".
Plutos: "Don`t forget that you still need to use some transport to load and rip your CD-s in to your hard drive. This all involves additional jitter and other problems."
Jitter only occurs during the actual decoding step, when the digital is transferred to analog. Until then, it is just another data file and you can move it around all you want. (It was certainly transferred multiple times on hard drives at the studio and production plant prior to becoming a CD.)
The only issue with a poor drive would be a read error, but that is not jitter. Read errors on CD are mainly an issue only if the CD is damaged or defective. Read errors on a disc in good condition are fairly rare (or no computer program would ever install and run.)
Most computer drives will read a disc multiple times to get rid of errors. Many CD players differ from computers in they only get one shot to read a disc correctly since the data is delivered in real time.
PO, you seem dead stuck on your 90%. When shown wrong with a referenced source, you declare numbers "irrelevant." Then you call everything else "propaganda" and then you're back to your "90%." Nice circle.
I see you love a good conspiracy theory and you've settled on yours, damn the facts. "They" are just out to get you!
I can see you're having a grand time wallowing in your misery, so enjoy! (And go buy a few CDs while you still can.)
Egads! It's like telling the Borg, "thanks, but no-thanks, I prefer keeping my CD's if you don't mind"! Just before the implants ravage your body. There is nothing like being absorbed, and losing all sense of individuality. All of this while in the background someone prattles on about PC's,MAC'S, and Transports. Glorious oblivion to any humanity or mercy. Listening to automaton's on the way to becoming one yourself. Mindless, Spiritualess, absence any heart or emotion. Apparently the War between Man and Machine was fought decades ago, and we lost. The Enemy has met and defeated us, and now we are slowly being converted into them! We are ending up with wires and circuits where our Hearts and Minds should be. Sad!
Devilboy, Don`t forget that you still need to use some transport to load and rip your CD-s in to your hard drive. This all involves additional jitter and other problems. What transport you use to load your music in to HD? Cheap plastic PC, MAC or some state of the art Esoteric transport?
. I like to read the liner notes too, that's why I keep my lp's. If I antagonized anyone, it was not my intent. Just making an observation. Remember, I'm chuckling at myself too! .
I know that Books burn at FARENHEIT 451. What temperature do CD's melt at? The Computer Industry starts calling their Convenience Minions, "FIREMEN", we are in deep #*!t! My apologies to Mr. Bradbury!
Mlsstl-the numbers are irrelevant. They are nothing but propaganda from the MP3/Computer Music Storage crowd, not to mention the Computer Industry itself. They are an excuse not to improve on Music Storage. The old line is that the consumer is not interested in Sound Quality. I don't know what the exact numbers are, but they seem to think that they are in a huge majority. They believe that Music should be less about Sound Quality and more about convenience. They have apparently painted a target on the back of the CD Format. They apparently believe that it sounds too good (sic) and it is not convenient enough! They want it gone,that is for sure! You can't even communicate with them unless you argue with them on their level with their own propaganda. I don't believe their crap, but their propaganda is the only language they understand. Thus, the misinformation about the facts. They believe that 90% of Consumers are not interested in Sound Quality, as devine providence from God, an 11th Commandment. An order to eliminate all non-believers and their competing Formats. Convenience, above all other conciderations, is their Holy Jihad! They are proud of that 90%, and they use it like a sledgehammer to get their own way. Industry is more than happy to take more of their money and give them less in return. Not only are they more than happy to donate to the cause, they would gladly donate their life and soul to the cause. I would say that their Industry is more like the ORI from the Stargate T.V. Series. Their Industry gets its power from the belief of its followers. Down with all things of Performance or Quality, they must be purged in the Holy fires of convenience. If you are an Audiophile, and part of the 10%(from their World view, NOT mine), you are part of a slight inconvenience to them. They get REAL upset about that, watch your back. If you listen to CD's-BLASPHEMY- you can run, but you can't hide from them. They aren't ashamed or embarrassed about it, they are quite proud of it. In fact they probably enjoy the power they gain by me sending out the warning, putting the fear of the God of Convenience into everyone. Be forwarned, he is a Vengeful God that shows no mercy! Resistance is futile, we will service them with the upmost convenience! How did I do guys, was that good enough? Was that enough Fire and Brimstone?
It is not easy to make predictions. I remember one serious columnist claiming 20 years ago that Hard Disks will never go larger than 40MB because mechanical cost will be too prohibitive. Today we know that he made mistake 100,000 times. In percent it would be 10,000,000% (and counting).
. I have to chuckle at the members here that say that they like to hold the recording in their hand and like to read the liner notes. It reminds me of 1998 when Apple came out with the iMac. The iMac, in a lot of ways was a revolitonary pc for its time. Then Steve Jobs did something with the iMac that freaked everyone out......the iMac came with no floppy drive! Never mind that just about everyone had already stopped using floppy discs, people still wanted a floppy drive 'just in case'. Well of course Jobs was right, if you aren't using it, then you don't need it. He forced the computing world to face up to the fact that the floppy drive was no longer necessary, and if you wanted his computer, you were not getting a floppy drive. Of course he sold millions of iMacs. Of course, the rest of the computing world followed. I see the same thing here with cd players. They are on their way out, but some diehards just won't let go. I still have a cd player that I rarely listen to. I should have sold it when I bought my Squeezebox and bought a killer DAC with the proceeds. Every year I watch as the value of my cd player deprciates. I found myself listening to much more music with a hard drive system than with a cd player.
I still own a cd player and have no plans to sell it soon, although I'll be the first to tell you that it is old technology and it is on the way out. I'm still one of those 'just in case' guys'. I own two turntables and 3,000 lp's that I'm still holding onto 'just in case', even though I never play them. Basic human nature does not like change, sometimes even if it's something better. .
While your additional detail is correct, I noted in my post that things had been trending down for many years. I believe the highest sales year for CD was 2000, 10 years ago.
The music industry is changing for a variety of factors. But it has been doing that for the past hundred years or more. I imagine the sheet music publishers were sad when their top-dog spot was overtaken by 78s.
For years, radio was the driver for music recording sales. Top 40 AM stations in the 1960s drove acts like the Beatles and Rolling Stones. That trend continued with FM radio in the 1970s and in the 1980s MTV was the driver with music videos.
Today, MTV is mainly concerned with reality shows, not music. Radio stations are a pale ghost of their former selves when it comes to music. An oldies station doesn't generate new album sales - how many copies of "A Hard Day's Night" does a person need? Re-releases aren't going to generate the sales volume needed.
We've also got both the legal and underground download market. We've got a fragmented music scene with endless genres appealing to various subsects of the market.
Keep in mind that teenagers drive the volume end of the CD market and they are not listening to albums. In a fashion, this is a return the the market of the 1950s and before when singles drove the music scene.
In short, things are changing, but they've always been changing. The industry will need to readjust to the change in the volume of CD units sold, but I don't think CDs will be going away for quite some time.
Mlsstl - 374 million CDs sold in 2009 is correct but it was 12.7% decrease from previous year. At the same time individual downloads increased by 8.3% to 1.3 billion. If you count per total number of songs then digital downloads represent only 40% but each individual download (or few) was likely bought instead of CD. Linn stopped making CDs in 2009 and I've heard rumors that biggest CD store Walmart might discontinue them.
CDs are way too expensive in my opinion. Making CD together with royalties cost in order of $1. Twentieth Century Fox was selling DVDs in China for equivalent of $2 admitting small profit (it explains region code).
I have a Bel canto cd2 transport, dac 3 vbs front end and so far, the cd 2 via the aes/ebu wireworld gold eclipse digital cable is the best sound from my dac, I have tried a laptop and the wadia ipod doc.
PO, I've no clue where you are getting your numbers. According to Nielsen Soundscan, there were 374 million CDs sold last year. Digital downloads accounted for 40% of the market.
That means CDs still represent the majority of music purchases.
While CD sales are trending downward and have been for many years, as long as people keep buying them, the factories will keep making them.
It seems you are determined to go all doom and gloom over something that hasn't happened yet. Yes, things are changing, but angst filled predictions about the future are probably more often wrong than they are right.
Rather than engage in projection, I'd recommend you relax with some Albeniz, perhaps played by Norbert Kraft. Very relaxing. And it's even available on CD.
One way you can design a DAC to be immune to jitter is to ensure it can have the transport slaved to it. This is easier said than done from a design perspective. One company that does this is Lessloss. The have designed their DAC so that the CEC TL-51X transport can be slaved to it. The TL-51X has a clock input which is connected to the DAC's clock output. The digital cable is then removed from the jitter equation as it only has to perform the task of carrying the bits and not the additional task of synchronizing the clocks (where the transport clock is master and DAC clock is slave). This is where a good portion of jitter is introduced.
I own this combination and oddly enough I've decided to compare it in my system to a Resolution Audio Opus 21 player. As mentioned previously, a CDP should be able to offer a master clock arrangement due to having all the digital circuitry in one box. However, this is not always the case, there are some poorly designed CDPs out there.
If the Opus 21 gives me a sense that I can live with it. Then I would consider moving up to the Resolution Audio Cantata. This would give me a well designed CDP, with volume control, balanced operation, and the ability to take advantage of USB or Ethernet computer audio connectivity. For me that would provide the best of both worlds.
Nothing has been taken away YET, Mlsstl. I just see this target painted on the back of the CD Format. Who is ready to pull the trigger, the MP3 crew who can't shoot straight on sound quality. I believe the intent is to lower the Standard for the remaining 10% of us. As if the 90% can't stand the competition, I know, I know, It makes no sense to me either. As if we, CD, and our 10% are a real threat! Are MP3 types really that insecure? The worst Sounding Quality Format owning 90% of the market isn't enough? Can't share just a little of the Market, gotta hog it all! Never satisfied untill everyone is force fed from the same trough! Can someone please tell me why we can't have both? I'm sick and tired of hearing we can't have both because the 90% say we can't have both. Who are these MP3 90% types? Do they have Masters Degrees in Acoustical Engineering or something? Why would anyone take Sound Quality advice from this group, the anti-sound quality pro convenience group. It's like hiring a child to do Brain Surgery, because 90% said we should! Fine, experiment on your own brain! Leave me, my 10%, and the CD Format alone! Stop playing Format God, your not very good at it (MP3), and besides the position (LP) is already taken (CD)!
Kijanki-I don't know what it is with Computer Music Storage types. This complete obsession over 90% of Customers don't care about quality. What is it with this compulsion of many people buy MP3 Downloads for less? What is it with the desperate behavior of praying for the demise of the CD? What the hell did the CD ever do to you, were you rapped as a child by a CD? Anytime anyone challenges your 90% premise, it's like hitting a nerve on a rabid dog! Why should I CARE about those who DON'T CARE about Sound Quality? What makes these people experts on when and what Formats should be embraced or eliminated? If they had two brain cells to rub together, they would keep BOTH Formats available to keep their options open. I thought we used to use re-writable optical Disks AS back-up! Lets follow the ultimate conclusion of the logic and reason of this 90%, shall we? Someone comes out with a new Format next year with half of the performance of MP3, but it Downloads faster thereby more convenient. The following year a new Format that halves the performance again, but still faster and more convenient Downloads. Price remains the same for each, cost to manufacture goes down, Profits Skyrocket, and performance goes further in the toilet if that is even possible. You say that I should follow these clever 90% People over a cliff because it is a fact of life! I say hand them a Darwin award, and tell them that they are on their own. Trust me, no-one is even going to miss their apathetic ass! Do I care what 90% are doing, I have been living in the 10% High End percentile for decades figuring live and let live. Now this 90% THINKS they have the right to cross a line and tell me what Formats I should be listening to. They are clueless, part of a herd mentality, the only thing that they are good for is mass suicide. I, on the other hand, have an instinct for self preservation because I am funny that way. I didn't really want to say this and offend so many People, but you have left me no choice. I do have a tendency to try and get along with people, ah..those that aren't persistent on dragging me over a cliff with them. If I have offended those I apologize. Trust me, your offense will be short lived, so don't worry. The real joke is the Industry that is leading you over a cliff, is placing bets on who goes over first. They call it Profit. You call them your best friends forever. This too will be short lived. Those are the facts! Who do you think you are selling your soul to the Devil, and thinking you don't have to pay up! Wake-up!
Onetwothreego: A well designed dac will not have jitter issues either.
I would put it that a dac that has extremely good jitter REJECTION capability will not have jitter issues.
An example being the Benchmark dacs, which are pretty much immune to jitter that may be introduced by the source component or by the interface between the two components. However, not everyone likes their sound.
Alternatively, if the design of the dac does not provide essentially complete rejection of jitter on the incoming signal (and most designs do not), then impedance matching, cable selection, cable length, the noise environment, the risetime and falltime of the output of the source component, the inherent jitter levels of the source component, and various other factors all become significant.
None of those factors are relevant with a one-box cdp.
Pettyofficer - I don't know if music or computer industries are going to do anything with CD format. My impression is that they don't care. I like CDs and buy them but use computer server just for the convenience. I use Apple Lossless format (ALAC) and program that can convert any existing format (except SACD) and most likely future formats. I have two backups and they tend not to fail when in storage.
No matter how loud we scream for quality - nobody listens. CD sales are lower since CDs are way too expensive. Many people buy MP3 downloads instead for less. Also, as I said before, 90% of customers don't care about quality. I don't like it - just stating the fact. Even mixing and music compression suggests targeting boom boxes or small stereos. My small radio at work has hard time playing piano when it brings energy in lower registers. Can you imagine what would happen if they would record it without compression (piano has about 96dB dynamics). It almost calls for two separate formats - one for popular use and one for audiophiles - or if compression is necessary why it is not built into radios or TV sets. I had big hopes for SACD but they killed it.
I don't know what's going to happen but I suspect that they not going to make 24/192 Master Tapes available for downloading in view of extended piracy in many countries. CD player won't die - just computer playback of CDs will be more popular.
O-Kay, Kijanki, I called you Mr.Technobabble. I take it back and apologize. You still don't get the point though! What I describe doesn't make any sense because what I desribe is exactly what you and the Computer Industry plan to do with the CD Format! Of course it doesn't make any sense, that is my point! You and your Industry are taking us down the exact same road when CD was first invented. You ever get the feeling of Deja-vue? Those LP's just had to go! Now it is the CD's that just have to go! Are we getting anything in exchange for all of this besides a downgrading of performance? Your right, it doesn't make any sense! I'm sick and tired of going in circles. What is this, Groundhog Day? What is so bizarre is that you aren't even aware that you are going in circles, scratch that, you are in extreme denial that you are dragging the rest of us in circles. Enough is enough, you are not getting the CD Format till you grow up-Period! You can't have it! Now go cry to your mommy about it!
MP3 as perfect sound forever? Here we go again! I know that History has a tendency to repeat itself, but for crying out loud! Some of us are sick and tired of going in circles for Decades! Enough already! Not another Music Storage perfect sound forever, not another MP3 perfect sound forever, not another Downloading perfect sound forever! Not another WAV, FLAC, Loss-less Compression whatever perfect sound forever! Should I continue forever? Please, I pray you get the point by now! Why must I go through this, and you are still not convinced? Here's one, how about the anything but CD perfect sound forever? There you go, CD has been eliminated! How about the anything but LP perfect sound forever. Anything but SACD perfect sound forever-ditto DVD Audio? Will this possibly provide enough convenience for everyone? Maybe what we need is a big fat syrenge so you can inject your Music perfect sound forever! Does that make your convenience juices flow? I thought it would.
And this thing continues on forever. A couple points, Kijanki. You give me Technobabble which is completely meaningless unless you take into account the attitude of the Industry that is producing the Technology. I have already covered the Industries attitude that first produced CD, the same attitude that the current Computer Industry embraces, the same attitude that you embrace. Most Customers are not Audiophiles and only care about (sic) Music, MP3 is good enough. Alright Mr. Technobabble, then remind me again what qualifies an Computer Industry with an MP3 Technological Attitude to replace the CD? Thank God we aren't exactly hiring overachievers to accomplish this task! If you were an Employer, would you seriously hire these people? Isn't that exactly what you are doing tasking them to replace the CD? I'm sorry, but these people aren't simply qualified to do the job, not with their MP3 attitude. I would love to see them do your Taxes with their barely good enough attitude, you would end up in jail for a very long time. The fact that a majority of consumers still listen to CD's as opposed to SACD/DVD-Audio was a value judgement based on a comparison of the Sound Quality of all three Formats. The slight increase in Sound Quality of SACD/DVD-Audio over CD didn't justify the huge increase in additional costs. Sounds like a value judgement based on Sound Quality comparison to me! It is the 800 pound gorilla in the room, how can you possibly not see it? People (or Computer Industry) who believe that basic quality of MP3 is more than enough, are simply not qualified to replace the CD on technical grounds, as well as on so many other levels! What qualifies them? Would you hire a 2 year old Child to be your Lawyer? Well your going to lose! Performance will always count for something, even if most consumers could give a farthing about it! That is certainly NOTHING to be proud of, certainly nothing to be shoving down the throats of others! I am just completely baffled how viraciously everyone argues against higher performance versus MP3, and still call themselves Audiophiles. They seek the destruction of Higher Performance Formats to eliminate the competition to their Lower Performance sacred cow. We have seen this before (ad nausium) with LP and CD. This is nothing new! You aren't fooling anyone. We know want you want to do with eliminating the CD Format! I don't think that you can be more transparent!
Pettyofficer ..Lay off the "cap lock",no need to shout or pound you opinions on this site.IMO,most dont really care.If you dont like whats going on/or not going on in the download world,dont get involved..Simple enough,next problem!
"Kijanki, I still don't know why I am NOT getting through!"
I'm still not sure what you want to improve in "Music Storage". The only parameter that counts is the jitter and it can be suppressed many different ways. My storage to DAC transimission ends-up with respectable 250ps word clock jitter that is further suppressed by asynchronous upsampling of Benchmark DAC1.
"Why the double standard whenever anyone tries to scrutinize Music Storage?" - What is wrong with music storage - say it. I'm begging you.
SACD sounds much better, according to professional reviews, (equivalent of 20/96) but only if recording measures-up. SACD died because of greed. They charged at the beginning over $30 per CD while their production cost was pretty much the same (and you cannot make backup or store on HD) and lost momentum. It is very difficult to establish new standard and make people buy new equipment - unless you make media (SACD) initially less expensive. Iomega had perfect ZIP drive but wanted too much for disks and licensing fees - ended up with fiasco. It is also case of Sony Mini-Disk that could be perfect solution for portable music (car, Boom box etc). Remember Beta VCRs? Quality has nothing to do with it.
"So don't tell me that Consumers don't make value judgements about Sound Quality!" - No they don't. Most of customers are not audiophiles and care only about music. Basic quality of MP3 is more than enough for them. Have you ever seen CD being not on the top of the charts because of the sound quality?
Kijanki, I still don't know why I am NOT getting through! I am NOT afraid that someone is going to take away my CD's. That is NOT it at all! I want the SAME scrutiny applied to Music Storage that was applied to the CD Format when it first came out, the same scrutiny that should be applied to ANY new Format to replace an old Format. It was only after years of scrutiny, after Manufacturers were finally convinced that existing CD's weren't perfect sound forever, that any progress was even attempted to improve on that Format. Of course this cuts into Corporate Profits, and we can't have that! Ditto for the Computer Industry and Music Storage. You think that I assume that server based system has to sound inferior, it doesn't! The limiting factor on how good a server based system sounds comes from the Computer Industry itself, not me! The Industry has an attitude of, "Hey Pal, it's just what you see"! It is the same attitude another Industry had when CD was first released with, "Perfect Sound Forever". I see how we as consumers dealt with that attitude in the past. Why give the Computer Industry a free pass? We behaved like Audiophiles scrutinizing the new Format of CD when first released. No-one said, hey, if you don't like CD's ,don't buy them. Otherwise, you don't have a right to complain. Why the double standard whenever anyone tries to scrutinize Music Storage? I KNOW that the Computer Industry can do better, and you do as well. There exists NO motivation for the Computer Industry to improve on Music Storage, unless ALL Industries fear that most Consumers will hold on to their CD's no matter what new Format is created. Isn't THAT what most Consumers did with SACD, and DVD Audio? I believe the reason was that SACD/DVD-Audio only SOUNDED slightly better than CD, NOT that SACD/DVD-Audio was only more or less CONVENIENT than CD! So don't tell me that Consumers don't make value judgements about Sound Quality! Well, that is EXACTLY what the Computer Industry is saying. These are the people who you are going to trust to replace the CD? Someone has to say, "NOT GOOD ENOUGH, KEEP WORKING ON IT"! Not, "WELL...IF IT IS JUST WHAT I SEE, I GUESS THAT I HAVE TO JUST TAKE IT"! Lets make sure that we hammer anyone who complains about any lack of Sound Quality. Something the Industry should have done when the first CD came out, instead of allowing Public perception drive us to improve severely cutting into our profits! Can't allow that to happen again!
Pettyofficer - Take it easy. Nobody wants to get you or take away your CDs. I'm not sure what you call computer audio but in my setup I cannot hear the difference between computer playback over Airport Express and directly connected transport. For some reason you assume that server based system has to sound inferior.
As for SACD or DVD Audio - they don't care. We don't represent any buying power. They tried to introduce format that cannot be copied (SACD) and found out that most people are perfectly happy with MP3 and boom boxes.
Did IQ's just drop sharply since I have been in the Rubber Room? Do I need more Shock Treatment because I don't believe Consumers should DEMAND lower and lower Sound Quality? Do I need more Shock Treatment because I believe objects fall down, not up? I don't believe that I have mentioned PRICE even once! I believe that I have been harping on SOUND QUALITY, as in the LACK there of! A portion of Edison's Inventions were indeed failures. Well no wonder he gave up on the Light Bulb. No wonder we should have given up on the Airplane, and the Telephone too! You know there were actually people back then who believed as much. Nice to know that they are alive and well in the "21ST CENTURY", demanding that we give up on Sound Quality as well. How does that work? If God had wanted Man to hear in High Fidelity, he would have given him bigger ears? This is the type of crap that you are trying to sell me? The CD is NOT dead, and it will never be dead. It won't because it is MY WEDGE to make damn sure that whatever replaces it offers BETTER Sound Quality. Why? L-E-V-E-R-A-G-E! After the failures of SACD, and DVD Audio the Industry is scared to death of the next Format. They better damn well be because they ALWAYS knew that SACD/DVD Audio didn't REALLY offer better Sound Quality. They have only ONE CHANCE to get it right next time. Do I get upset when someone wants to throw away ANY Leverage that Consumers might have to demand better Sound Quality? Lets kill the CD, and just blindly accept whatever Sound Quality gets handed to us? Well, what exactly makes us Audiophiles? What exactly makes us any different from some poor shmuck still listening to 8-track? We weren't satisfied with the Sound of CD when it first came out, why are we so anxious to do the exact opposite with the CD's replacement? What the Sam Hell is the difference? The Computer Industry doesn't KNOW what an Audiophile or High Fidelity is. THEY ARE NOT READY to replace the CD! Not untill they get their head out of a dark place!
And, if you look at the history of recorded music, the one constant has been change. No format has ever had an unchallenged, unlimited run and never will.
Music boxes were the hot item in the early 1800s, but they had precedents going back hundreds of years. Later in the 19th century one had player pianos.
Wax cylinders were the first recording/playback devices, which gave way to 78 phono records in the early 1900s. Wire recorders popped up, but we acquired the open reel recorder from Germany after WWII. 1948 brought the LP record, the 1970s brought the invasion of the music cassette and 1980 the CD.
And here we are today. I guess the message is don't get too comfortable. Things will change whether you want them to or not.
What a discussion, 117 posts so far including this one. Here are the points I find most compelling on both sides:
The CD should not die, yet:
1. Owning and having access to physical media is attractive to many, with cover art, liner notes and a tactile sense of substance and ownership that digital files cannot provide - this may be more comforting to ludites and materialists than to those more comfortable being part of the "Matrix".
2. There is a huge standing inventory of CD's in peoples homes, new and used music stores, and public institutions like schools and libraries - the only current mass media form for millions of songs recorded from the 1990's and 2000's. In contrast CD-quality downloads are severly limited compared to the existing inventory of new and used CDs in the world.
3. There is a strong market for #2 above, and it provides access to reasonable quality digital music at a lower cost point and with resale value that is not currently available through Internet Downloads - or am I missing something here?
4. The CD player/disk system is simple to set up as a part of a HiFi system, if more effort to actually use, than well-executed HD or computer based servers (I am not talking using iTunes to load your iPod here, I am talking fully integrated remote controlled music servers).
5. No ripping of existing media required, put disk in and push play.
The CD is dead:
1. Music serves/DACs are theoretically not limited to 16/44.1 resolution, and can play anything from mp3's to 24/192 files (this is the best reason IMHO and all others pale in comparison)
2. iTunes and other music server software are convenient, immediate and complete all-in-one purchase, orgnaize and play solutions, and will absolutely kill in the cradle to grave music service when higher resolution downloads become cheaper and more widely available.
3. Downloading music from the Internet satisfies the human appetite for immediate gratification.
4. Who cares about the value of buying and selling used new and used music when you can just share all of your music files in networks for free (Dooh!), visit any college campus today, most kids don't even know HOW to buy music.
Clearly there are those in the industry who agree with Devilboy, Linn being among the first to quit making ANY CD players. In any case, quality CD players or at least optical disk drives will be around for a long time to access existing media for listening and ripping. I really don't have time to adopt now other than LoFi uses of iTunes, and in my mind the HiFi software applications, hardware and media are not yet mature enough for me to spend the money and make the time. They will be mature enough, but until then, the CD player and CD's are both very much alive at my house (and car, and office).
That's quite a treatise, Pettyofficer. Not sure what it has to do with the subject at hand, but interesting nonetheless.
BTW, the "free market" has nothing to do with price. It is the opposite of a "centrally controlled" economy where everything is run by "experts."
And, as for lightbulbs, Edison held 1093 patents. If you read some history, you'll find that a portion of his inventions were indeed failures because no one bought them. His portland cement piano housing just didn't take off for some reason.
When it comes to better Sound Quality from the Computer Industry, WHERE'S THE BEEF? WELL, WHERE'S THE BEEF? Don't give me that it's a nice fluffy bun excuse that I can go shop someplace else! WHERE'S THE BEEF? Unless you think that ALL Consumers should be muzzled. Hey, we are a Nation of complainers. Its the only way to keep everyone on their toes. Yeah, wouldn't it be nice World if no-one complained? Hey Pal, it's just what you see!
Jeez...where to begin. Mlsstl, Markets are not born in a vacuum. Not alot of takers on the Light Bulb when it first came out, why? No place to screw it in. Gee, what evil Corporation held it back? As far as not enough customers buying it with no place to screw it in, no wonder we all have to use candles today! There is your Free Market Gentlemen! Newsflash, it is NOT FREE! Someone had to sell the idea BEFORE you have enough customers buying it! The Customers want their Music cheap and dirty, no exception, end of arguement. With that mentality we would still be using cheap and dirty gaslamps, who knows what the hell we would be using for Music! Inventing the Electric Generator costs money. Inventing the Electrical Distribution System for the Light Bulb costs money. Persuading customers to switch from their cheap gaslamps and invest in the much more expensive Electrical System for the light Bulb costs alot of money! All of you must be right, and I am completely wrong! We should have let convenience and expense determine that we keep our gaslamps, and the hell with the light bulb. The Hell with the Phonograph, the Hell with the Airplane, the Hell with the Telephone! None of these things were cheap and certainly not convenient, and NOBODY wanted any improvement in quality of life because it is never cheap and never convenient! Jeez...why not just live under a rock! Certainly those that provided the gas to those gaslamps have a market interest in perpetuating the cheap and dirty society. So I am supposed to accept your rewriting of Economic History and ignore my lying eyes? Pay no attention to that 747 hiding behind that curtain over there-WHAT? How do I get away from this Yellow Brick Road mentality. I'm sorry, I am from a Planet where we DEMAND better quality for our money. Is it not the same here on your Planet? Call the M.I.B., I surrender! P-l-e-a-s-e extradite me! Customers are supposed to DEMAND lower and lower (sound) quality for their money. Can anyone explain to me how that is supposed to work? Is that sort of like everything is supposed to fall upwards due to gravity, I am just not looking at it from the right angle? Its not that I don't like Computer Audio, its that I have a right as a customer to demand better sound quality from Computer Audio. My purpose in life isn't to make things EASIER thereby MORE PROFITABLE for the Industry! I am a Consumer for crying out loud! I am supposed to demand better bang for my buck, not pick up my marbles and go home! Seems to me that I heard alot of people complaining about the Sound Quality of CD when it first came out. Seems to me that I heard just a little improvement through the decades with CD, not most people completely abandoning the Format when it first came out! You sly Dogs, you say one thing today, but did the exact opposite back then. You DO believe that Customers should demand better Sound Quality for their money. Call me any name you want, but I will carry on cruxifying Snake Oil salesmen, regardless if they sell Computers or CD Players! Sorry about that, I am just a Consumer that's funny that way! You want to protect the Industry, well I am a Consumer that is in business for myself as well. I am concerned about MY Corporate profits as well, and the Industry is my competitor NOT my friend!
Are you saying cd players don't suffer from jitter just because they are cd players?
A well designed cd player will have jitter issues that lie somewhere between minimal and none, because the relevant clocks are generated internally and are only transmitted internally, over very short distances.
A two-box approach, whether the interface is usb, s/pdif, or aes/ebu, faces the fundamental issue that data is transmitted to the dac synchronously to a clock that is generated in the source component, not the dac. That creates huge opportunities for jitter to be introduced, due to impedance mismatches, cable issues, noise issues, clock recovery and synchronization issues, and a host of other possible ways for things to go wrong. Certainly those issues can be successfully overcome, but its nice to not have to worry about them, or to invest time and money in optimizing them.
See for example this excellent Ayre white paper, for an overview of some of the complexities involved in adequately dealing with the jitter that can be introduced in a usb-to-dac interface:
Now today for example, it was very nice listening to Mozart piano sonatas and then adding the Beethoven Pastoral Symphony while sitting in my chair in my bigger listening room and not having to get up and go into the next room to change things.
I use the VisualMR program on a Windows PDA with a wireless connection to control my Rokus (one on each of two systems on different floors that connect to a shared music server laptop to select songs or entire albums from any room in the house.
Now that is sweet and something I could never have even dreamed of before!
I would find the jukebox like convenience features of a music server less valuable I think if I listened only to classical music where compositions are often longer and consist of multiple parts that have to be listened to in sequence compared to most popular music.
Devilboy: Going through the responses, I've noticed that the majority of you have not gone the hard drive route because you don't want to spend the TIME copying your music to a hard drive. That doesn't tell me WHY you think cd players are superior to hard drives. That tells me you are lazy.
Tvad: Speaking, I believe, as about the only participant who prefers a CD player over a computer-based front end, I can say unequivocally that laziness has nothing to do with my decision ....
I too use a one-box cd player, and at this time I have no interest in computer-based music playback. That is perhaps ironic in my case, because I am heavily into computers (I build my own high-powered desktop computers, and I am a moderator on an internet forum for computer enthusiasts).
I do not believe that either approach is superior or inferior; both are capable of providing excellent results if well implemented. And as Tvad seemed to imply, I don't see any point in ideological debates about the superiority of either approach. There is no one right answer that is universally applicable; it is a matter of individual needs, preferences, tastes, and interests.
In my case my music collection is relatively small by Audiogon standards, and it is well organized, so the convenience factor of having everything on a computer wouldn't mean a whole lot to me. I enjoy, to a minor degree, having a collection of physical media, although I could certainly adapt to not having one. I have lots of cd's and lp's that are as yet unlistened to. And having made some major changes to my system in the recent past, re-listening to much of my collection on the improved system will keep me happily occupied for a considerable amount of time to come. Mainly because of that, I will have no interest in acquiring hi rez downloads for the foreseeable future.
Given all of that, and along the lines of my earlier post, a nice side benefit of my present preference for a one-box player is that I don't have to concern myself with jitter issues.
As for the inflammatory and unfounded allegation of laziness, I don't consider it worthy of a response.
In an effort to drag this discussion back to reality, the "high end" audio industry has never been anything more than a cottage industry. The vast majority of fancy audio electronics, for example, are constructed using individual parts developed for other purposes or consumer products. One can find exceptions, but even the most high faluting component will contain a good percentage of parts primarily made for the non-audio industry.
The companies that make recording studio equipment haven't sat around waiting for the computer industry to do something. They've taken the components available on the market and turned out some very fine equipment. I've heard some stunning recordings on CD that equal anything I've heard on vinyl or open reel. Try Edvard Grieg's "3 Sonatas for Violin and Piano" from Bridge Records or The Great American Main Street Band's "Silks and Rags" on Angel.
It is also easy to forget something like the much revered vinyl LP was developed in 1948 by a committee and included the very same type of technical compromises made when they settled on a 16/44.1 format for the CD.
The same thing happened a few years later in the 1950s when the stereo LP was introduced - design by committee with compromises. And some competing "formats" were thrown overboard.
I'm not quite sure who you are alleging is plotting to eliminate what music format as you didn't specify. There have certainly been a lot tried: SACD, 24/96 and 24/192 and so on.
If they don't make it on the market, it will not be due to some evil corporation axing them. It will be due to the fact that not enough customers are buying them.
I'm not sure the source of your apparent anger on this subject. If you don't like computer audio, don't use it. If you think the world of computer audio should be run differently, then start your own company.
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