I AM IN THE PROCESS OF BUYING A CD PLAYER AND I DONT KNOW WHICH WAY TO GO.WITH SO MANY TO CHOOSE FROM I WANT TO PURCHASE SOMETHING GOOD BUT I DONT WANT TO SPEND 10,000 EITHER.
The Wadia set was not a one box set up. But with that being said,all else that was with this system was way far over the top. Wilson Watt speakers Pass Labs Mono Blocks,Goldmund preamp. Plus some very esoteric interconnects and speaker cables.
After some 48 years in this hobby, I think I finally heard what I consider the ultimate achievement in two channel audio. There is certainly nothing in the past I have heard that can come close and I have heard some very exotic gear in that period of time. It was like being completely immersed in the music, like you could dip your hand into the sonic signature, truly a musical experience I have not experienced till then.
In regards to this thread best CD Player for the money, I have to tip my hat to the Wadia set up. In my opinion it is best for the money,if you have $16K to spend on a digital set up.
Ferrari, we've found that using any number of DVD-ROM RAM Buffered transport equipped players (Denon/Marantz/Esoteric) run into heavily upgraded DAC even older dacs by Theta, Linn, Monarchy and Krell completely crush any 1 box player we have heard....they sound lightweight small, lacking bass drive, micro and macro dynamics, thin and strident. Trick is using the right SPDIF coaxial interconnect and using an error and jitter-free transport. Based on numerous A-B's we've done, there is no need to rebuild the circuit design with hotglued breadboards and wiring all over the place.
Just got back from Miami, where I heard a Wadia 270 transport with the 27i DAC. Or as I was told a computer processor.
At any rate if I could afford this combo I could finally put my analog to rest. If there is better than this I have yet to hear it in digital. At $15,995 for the combo, thats a mighty price to pay for digital to sound as good as a $2K analog set up.
Mr. Hi End Audio, Dave, if you recall, several months ago you were apparently quite impressed with the APL Denon you've heard at Steve's (against your current “greatest” at the time) so you personally called me to place an order for APL Denon 3910 which I refused after careful consideration, sorry to say. Steve offered you the APL Denon recently because he thought you’d still want one (which you did) and because he has NWO-2.5 coming in a couple of weeks from now. He asked me if I am ok with him selling you my Denon on which of course I said no, sorry again. Why a competitor wants to buy my discontinued product anyway? While I suspect why you want to buy it now, please be cautious because you may encounter a boomerang effect. :-)
I am perfectly aware (in great detail) how all Denon, Sony, Pioneer, Esoteric and many more players/combos are built. I also know that upgrading components brings very nice results (been there done that) and is a good value at the price point but, sadly, this approach is limited by the original circuit/overall design topology of the given digital player and is greatly insufficient if best possible results are desired.
Please let's stop beating a dead horse! The APL 3910 was discontinued long time ago and, although itÂ’s still quite good, it can not hold a candle against the current APL products.
711Smilin....if you'll recall correctly we put your APL3910 back in the system actually twice after I personally changed your preamp tubes and the noise went away...granted neither player had much time on it...the 3930Ci only had about 15 hours total time since new. Why did you offer to sell me the APL 3910 for $4500 on the spot?
Jp1208, I don't think the solid state APL Denon is better than the AKM/tubed version. This is the reason suggesting comparing apples with apples since TUC Denon 3930 is also solid state.
Since both AKM/tubed and solid state APL Denon 3910 based players are long discontinued, while TUC Denon 3930 is their current latest and greatest, I think it would be more appropriate to look at APL's current products of which the all-solid-state APL 3930 would be the only somewhat equal level competitor to TUC 3930.
Mmakshak - My idea above was a "get-together" not a "shoot-out". I think those two descriptions are self defining. Besides agreeing with your idea that a one time side-by-side comparison is probably not ideal, I really don't like the idea of having someone come to my home, eat and drink what I provide and then crap all over any of my gear the moment they get to their computer. I know there are many very passionate folks around here, but this tone can be ruthless and unwarranted...IMO of course.
BTW, I too wish I could edit or even delete some of my posts. There have been several times when I have written something that I shouldnÂ’t have. I really donÂ’t think there is anything wrong with what you wrote above. I certainly wasnÂ’t offended. I just think some folks may have misinterpreted/over-interpreted it.
The bottom line is this, I like my player. I like what Schulte has done with it and how he has treated me as his customer. I may not have a lot of experience with this sort of thing, but at least he is NOT the first “modder” I have dealt with, so I do have a little experience. Others may not feel the same way as I do on any of these points, and that is just fine.
Also, FWIW, TUC, APL, and even RAM, to the best of my recollection, have all made posts that have been what I would consider confrontational in there tone. But, this is their livelihood and I can now understand how they can get their feathers ruffled by what some people write. Especially when people imply facts about gear they have never heard. IÂ’d get POÂ’d too!
The fact that you are reading this [all of you!], in my book, defines you as a bit geeked out on audio. So we all really need a little Psychological help. I know my player is not the absolute best of the best. I never meant to imply that it is. But, it is the best I can do for now. I feel I would have had to spend a boatload of money, and time, to get to this point buying off-the-shelf players.
One last thing, the Esoterics I referred to above do not have the VRDS outfitted transports. My “antiquated” DV-50 has a pioneer transport. From what I understand, the Denon transport can do a great job, but there is much more to it than just the transport…as always…so I am told [nice disclaimer - huh].
Jp1208, my solid state Denon 3910 sounds really nice but is not nearly as good as the AKM/Tubed one. Tvad have heard them both in his system so he may want to provide some feedback about the differences. Since my long discontinued AKM/Tube Denon 3910 was all-single ended design, it is possible to sound a tad slow/romantic compared to a solid state design but the level of naturalness, realism and soundstaging properties can not be matched with solid state.
All of the current APL Hi-Fi AKM/Tubed products are featuring fully differential design.
Since we are also offering 3930 (see our website) which is all solid state design using the original Burr-Brown DACs and MOSFET output, it would be fair that David Schulte's 3930 is compared to that one. I am willing to submit an APL 3930 machine to anyone who'd like to compare it to Schulte's. Doing so with the AKM/Tubed NWO-2.5, NWO-M1 and even the discontinued APL 3910 would not be fair for David Schulte, not APL.
Audiohobby1, I live the San Francisco Bay Area. I'de be happy to compare the two. My system is not optimally setup, so it might be better in your 3930's system. One thing bothers me. All by itself, Alex's 3910 sounds fantastic! I know this sounds like heresy, but I'm not completely convinced that comparisons yield the best results. I also want to mention that AKM dac's, tubes, and Alex's use of the Esoteric transport are considered upgrades on my APL 3910. I also think that replacement of the Denon 3910's power cord with the Volex 17604 is a no-brainer. This last statement are for those that still have the standard power cord. I'm sure there are better power cords out there, but for less than $20, who can argue?
Can I take back the words "not competitive"(although it looks like it got people talking). I think the words came from admiration of what Alex did to his 3910. It had me wondering what could be improved, also. After changing the stock power cord for TVAD's recommendated Volex 17604, I see that anything can be improved. The thought that major companies use cost as a factor in their products, has me suspicious of their products.
Aplhifi, How does your APL Denon solid state design compare to your tubed output stage with AKM DAC's? Is your solid state unit actually better in your opinion? If you think the solid state design is better then I would agree that it would be more fair to compare the 3930 to that unit. Or are you saying solid state units should not be compared to tubed units period?
I am sure that there will be many around here to believe that Op Amps can beat tubes so your statement that your Op Amp/Black Gate 3930 "completely cream APL 3910" might actually fly
Here it comes, the double blind facial! Cameras ready...
Hey Dave, Mmashak's APL Denon 3910 is a solid state design with MOSFET output, no tubes. I really think that your 3930 should be compared to that one so it is a fair game.
I am sure that there will be many around here to believe that Op Amps can beat tubes so your statement that your Op Amp/Black Gate 3930 "completely cream APL 3910" might actually fly. :-)
Dbld, Alex moved to Dixon(near Sacramento). I'm sorry, but I don't think what you've proposed is competive with my APL Denon 3910 with Volex power cord(17604?). Just don't ask me why, as I don't understand. I do have my APL on a Bright-Star prototype 3 isolation platform, and use an Oritek X-2 interconnect. I'de be extremely suprised if the players you recommend are in the same ballpark.
Mmakshak - I mention those players above because they are all less that 1 hour from me...well John is a little less than one hour from me, and the others are about 15 minutes. I don't know that there is an APL nearby, but that would be very welcome.
Actually getting this to happen might be a pipe-dream though...
Regarding vinyl...I am just not into that kind of maintenance and don't have the storage space. Starting a completely new collection of music media from scratch doesnÂ’t appeal to me either.
Dbld, how about my APL Denon 3910 in this comparison? I am that confident. In fact, Ori(Oritek Audio-X-2 interconnects, and Zhalou modded DAC) wants to hear it. I am not necessarily confident in comparison to other cd players, although in a way I am. I am confident in comparison to analog(circa 1992 Linn, Ekos, Archiv, Mana Sound Table, Lingo). Does that tell you something?
At present have a Musical Fidelity X-Ray CD Player original version on the test bench. At stellar performer for a 6 years in service,over kill Sony CDM as opposed to the sometimes problematic Philips CDMs. Excellent build quality and one of the most ridgid chassis I have seen. Released at $1296.00 and still command about half that in the pre-owned market. Strong resale value as opposed to others that only bring about a third of retail value.
Excellent sonic signature, 24 bit 8 times oversampling unit. One of the most revealing CD players to pass through here. If interested look for an indepth review on Audiogon before end of year.
Would be very hard pressed to do better than this machine at its current pre-owned market place value. Although very hard to come by. Visually it is a love it or leave it proposition as it is not conventional in standard EIA format.
Bartokfan, I've been advised that it depends on which Mundorf caps you use. Also, it has been said that there is no one way to define overall musicality. Look, I'm a pretty simple guy. I've got two volumes-one for analog, and one for digital. Even though my $10,000 analog(circa 1992, and in need of a tune-up) is slightly more relaxing than my digital, the lack of detail, and bass response in my analog has my volume set for my APL(It takes me about a week to dial in volume.). Now, I have less than 100 cd's, and over 2,500 albums, so you'de think I would prefer to set volume for analog. Yet, I don't. Do you live in Northern California? TVAD's suggestion of comparing the two, sounds good to me. I've got to admit that the APL exceeds my abilities to understand. I more or less go with what music makes me listen to. That's why I wanted to compare it with the Rega. I'm not sure that I could live with the Rega. I am sure that I can live with Alex's Denon 3910. It is that good! I have to mention that Alex is also involved with analog. He just has an incredible ear, or something. He listens. He just doesn't put in things that are supposed to be better, and assumes they are. I can't say that his Denon compares with Meitner, but I can say it competes. I assume the Cayin has tubes?
Well fellows: Here we go again! The player to beat now is the TRL Marantz 8001. Not sure if this tid bit will make the thread. If so, here we go! Happy Holidays!
When i finish the last mod on my Cayin 17 , which is to change the caps to Mundorf's midline caps, this unit might blow away the Denon. I think so. Price with mods and new tubes = $2K. BINGO. Lesd tahn your 2500 denon
I personally would like to hear a comparison between my APL Denon 3910(circa summer 2006-Burr Brown AKC's, mosfet outputs-price was $2,500) and the Rega $1,000 cd player. That would be a most significant comparison. Of course, those without access to $2,500, or more, should look at the Rega, and see if they could live with it. For those with more money, they might want to look at it. The APL might require more work to get, but might I suggest that, even if you are an analog lover, you might consider this player. Does anyone know of a player between these price points that could be considered. I think not!
The "best" I have heard to date is my upgraded Denon 2900. I have not heard a stock player yet that sounds better. So to me it is "best" so far. I have even had the Ultimate modded Marantz SA11 im my system and I did not have to turn the Denon on for comparisons.
As an analog lover, I still have to say that the APl Denon 3910(my version-meaning the one compared to analog and modified with analog in mind) is one that analog lovers should check out. I would only compare it to the $1000 Rega Appolo. If you could live with the Rega, pocket the savings. Let me just say that I've not auditioned any cd players to come to this conclusion(although I've heard the Meitner Signature and Alex's best). What I've done is compare it to a state-of-the-art Linn Sondek turntable(circa 1992), Ekos, nude Archive, Lingo, and Mana Sound Table.
I haven't read any of the responses, but I would compare the new Rega to the APL Hi-Fi Denon 3910(my version). Although they are at different price points, I find the 3910(APL) to be superior to my $10,000 analog(circa 1992). Digital is so unusual that it took this player for digital to be music for me. I'de also like to add that volume is extremely important when it comes to digital, in my opinion. Prices are around $1000 and $2500.
For the money? My cayin 17. why? TRUE BALANCE DESIGN WITH DUAL DACS, A QUAD OF 6922 's for pure musicality, DUAL SEPARATE POWER SUPPLY's. Weighing in at a hefty 35 lbs. Built like a tank, sounds like an angle singing with my new opamps. All for $1K shipped from HK, opamps tweaks, replaced 6 for $225, and made a HUGE difference. Will compare to DAC or player in the 3-5K range. And another thing, it only has the number 15 in its title, Not SXLRVTEi, and not a 9000, 560, 300, 480, and other such nonsense.
The best cd player I have bought for the money, And don't laugh until you heard one in your system, is a Sony D-EJ109 portable cd player its silver. I had bought this to use when I worked out,then I started taking it to use when I was going to purchase used gear, say off craigs list or thrift stores ect.. It sound super, every bit as good as the NAD 542 player I had. It was only $55 bucks!, not as good as the Arcam 192 I own, BUT its no let down either, and that says a lot. I wish it came in a box type set. Happy listening! Cheers! Mcgarick
I agree, I have yet to find a tubes source unit that has the bass, dynamics and HF extension to my personal likings.
I think alot of old school thinking is still in play with some audiophiles about tubes. The latest digital gear is much better than ever before due to latest chips and digital servo and transport technologies. Have a good day!
I can easily see how the Consonance beats out most all you mention EXCEPT the Cayin model 17. It may /may not beat out the Cayin 15. But as you say the Cayin 17 retails for $1800/USA, $1K HK. I think the Consonance is less. Now is it tube? If its not tube, it will not surpass the 15, and especailly not the 17. ss units are not in the same leauge as tube players. Thats a fact.
I agree with several of these folks. I have had both a Consonance cd120 and now a Marantz 17 modified by David Schulte and it competes with the very best. Don't spend a lot on the player and instead send your money to David.
I recommend Consonance CD-120 Linear . I've compared to : Rotel RCD-1070 , Cambridge , NAD , CAL Tempest , Rega Planet 2000 , Shanling , Cayin and so many other cd players with cost more.
Now this thread is going on 6 yrs old! I was out of audio for a while and now I can't afford hi-end stuff, but my sense is that CD players never really got good, I mean it's strange that you can't just buy any cheapo CD player from one of the big companies and have it sound OK as you could with a tape player, for example. I guess digital sound is just too difficult for the mass market; no one has found the magic bullet to make it sound great for pennies, although not to say that someone won't some day crack it. Also I never understand why music at, say, Borders book store always sounds quite good and they say they use just 'mass market' CD players. I don't believe that.
Richardzerambo - I picked up a very lightly used Shanling S100 MkII and like it alot. It is an improvement over the earlier Shanling S100 and Music Hall (which Shanling makes).
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