I agree, it's a j-o-k-e ... To enjoy music , playback and share a word on gear that might, just might make a difference to someone without the big $$$$ . As for dirt, I see a dirth of excellent gear resting on White Elephant Tables all for the want of a fuse. Talk about a j-o-k-e !
One underlying idea presented in "Dirt" was the notion that these new , China made / Euro designed products MAY fill a niche in the consumer audio-market. And , that of the China made units the 500's presented more value.
Personally, I'm a valve person, however, the 500's found a place in my Rig as has Coda, ARC and a few others. With exception of some exceptional second-hand buys made over the years, the 500's (inter-net priced) are a bargin. Matching & Common-Sence required by the end-user , be that The Joker , Batman or JQ. |
Threaders : Today, I forwarded an email to Behringer in regard to comments printed regarding the 500A in the "Hi-Fi World Magazine" , issue 12/06.
I requested they provide us with a reaction ; comments & a solution (should one be possible) to the distortion alleged in the review.
In light of the sheer numbers of viewers to our thread ,I feel, it is to the interests of everyone to "clear the air" on the issue. |
Threaders: No response to my email as of today. |
For $169 bucks each, I will forgive them for no customer service.
I spent more than that insuring and shipping my Mark Levinson amp back for repairs.
In the meantime, my Behringer stuff sounds better and better, and seems to be working just fine. |
Cwlondon: Its good news to know your Behringer stuff " sounds better and better ". I'm with you ... For what you get for $169 they can be forgiven for no customer service /response. I'll "bank" the difference @ the Bank. |
Readers , just a FYI: The two Berringer A-500s continue in my possession and operate flawlessly. They are to me the Dirt Kings @ up to 500 W mono per side that is highly regulated wattage that can be easily adjusted from 0-500W. I believe they now retail @ $269 per side but can be found discounted over the internet. Absolutely not SOTA but not so bad a runner in the race , considering they work with most panels and drivers on the market. All The Best |
Don't take my word go to the "Audio Critic" web site for a full review Great, Peter Aczel loves this cheap amplifier! Too bad Mr. Aczel is deaf. |
D: Tisch , tisch may you live to be as old as Mr. Aczel.
To distill Mr. Aczel's review , the A-500's are pretty good. Cheap and inexpensive have different meanings. These inexpensive amps deliver far more technology than the retail price reflects. For someone on a budget that wants 0-500W Mono Blocks , these amps deliver or at least these two do.
As spring comes in my part of the US of A, I turn off my tubes (too hot) and rely on solid state for a few months. I counld care less should Peter has a hearing problem of not, the A-500's handel the job for my summer months and any other time. Oh, D have a little more respect for your elders. Soon enought your hearing will be abuzz with age. |
Mr. Aczel's hearing problems have nothing to do with getting old:-) |
D: Mr. Aczel is not the objective of this thread. The A-500's offer a significant value for the money. Thats it.
As mentioned to the Editor of Stereophile a few years ago , audio products designed elesewhere (as the A-500) and manufactured in China are going to become a norm. With Quad and B&W who's next? Crack the top of the 500 and see the reason ... I think I hear a buzz... |
Just A Thought : Here are a few universal issues to mention with amplifiers; the design , execution of the design and manufacturing process. If the design is properly engineered and is fully executed in the manufacture , the product should produce the expected result. Makes no difference if we are discussing widgets or amplifiers. The greatest difficulity is execution. With lots of compromises made for reduced manufacturing cost, each has a impact on the finished product. For example,when one examines Edison's machines/processes, those machines in exsistence still work and most to his qualifications, and most are over a 100 years old. Its simple and time honored , garbage in garbage out. Superior engineering & design in , superior manufacture in , excellent results out. Hasn't changed since the clovis spear points to today. But what is important is to recognize what is "real" vs what is "hype". And for that only your circumstances and your ears are the ulitmate decider.
The sole point in acknowledging the A-500's had to do with the fact they were such a surprize (for the money) and that perhaps a cash strapped audio-head would see them as a hold-over or a reference, as they decide. |
Davemitchell- Perhaps Mr. Aczel is a re-incarnation of Mr. Hirsch? If these listeners can be satisfied with the Behringer equipment in their listening rooms, let them enjoy their savings. By the way SameDayMusic.com offers the amp for $199.00(free shipping), and they have most excellent customer service, and a satisfaction guarantee. I've ordered a lot of Behringer gear for the stingier/less critical of my pro-sound clients from them. I use a DEQ2496 to check my listening room's response now and then(the 61 band RTA is great). I'd never have it in the signal path though, even as a pink noise source(if it went, it might take something valuable with it). OH- musiciansfriend.com has the A500 on sale for $180.00(free shipping). Their customer service is pretty good too. |
OOPS! I guess those $180.00 A500's are B-stock/blems. |
R: I do believe Mr. Hirsch has passed while Mr. Aczel is well into his 80's. No re-incarnation just a guy (right or wrong) who believes what he believes. He is worth knowing even if you disagree with ever word. As the phrase goes "knowledge is power". Thanks for all the A-500 info. |
I Hope the info helps someone enjoy their music(whatever their personal tastes). Happy listening! |
Rodman99999...Agreed that the Behringer DEQ2496 RTA is nice. I bought my first one for the RTA feature, intending to use another analog equalizer in the signal path. However, the overall effect of the DEQ2496 equalization was so good that I scrapped the analog equalizer, and have subsequently bought three more DEQ2496. Three are in my multichannel system, and the other in a secondary stereo system. They are all in the signal path, and three of them have been for several years. How long do I have until they all blow up and destroy thousands of dollars of associated equipment? |
E : Your A charm .... Buzz, Buzzz |
E: I knew I'd find your button! I never said, "will", only: "May" and "might". SO- You've been using analog EQ's in your home system too, huh? NOW I understand perfectly! Enjoy your sounds! |
I have a good friend who understands audio circuits better than most of us know the image of our hands & faces. I have observed him to understand & doctument the history of any particular electronic circuit to its orgins; nothing (in electronics) seens to escape his mind-set.
Armed with 60-80 year old manuals pencil & paper Gary ,devoted 30+ years of research & study to circuits measuring and applying time honored mathamatical formula's to a collection of tube amps (50+ pairs in total). Never one to just leave an error in a circuit , Gary applied his knowledge to a "Hall of Fame" of amps ; each sounding more breathtaking following revision, be that an intentional or error(s) of omission by the initial designer(s).These revisions he applied one at a time until the finished unit was(to my ears and others)a work of art. Those efforts out-stripped any re-worked products hyped in the aura of "Best-Much Better in Audio Land". He is sucessful due to an understanding of the components that make up a circuit , its tolerances , limits and improvement far removed from the cap-changing crowd. That understanding is so fluid that when exchanging ideas with someone like Lew Johnson or others they appeared to express amazement having met someone who understood a product as well or better than they.
Moreover, from our friendship I learned the importance of design , execution and manufacture as touch-stones of what makes a product Ok vs a Classic . Price rarely reflects value , and value may become even more important today as we have endured historic price rises .
The A-500's are not exactly classics , nor are they Ok but they are quite a value for the $. |
R: I guess you are an eqaphobiac. Do you play your LPs with a flat microphone preamp so as to avoid that nasty RIAA equalization? (By the way you might try it. Seriously, you might find the result interesting). And how do you identify recordings that have not been equalized during production?
And now for your button...Bose, Bose, Bose :-)
. |
LOL- I was thinking about RIAA EQ right after I sent that post(pretty sharp E, KUDOS). Nope, I've never tried the mic pre trick. Some EQ(like what goes on in a phono stage or in production) is an unavoidable evil. Curving venues was always a pain with the old Ivey RTA, and either a graphic or pararmetric EQ. When the UltraCurve Pro 8024 came along: whatta relief! At home I WAS an EQaphobe(any freq. over 80hz)for better than 24 years(80-04), and a DIGIphobe for 15 years(pretty much a straight-wire-with-gain, bi-amping, analog lover. Now I've got a TacT RCS 2.2X in my system(talk about a paradigm shift). OH NO, NOT BOSE!!(in my best Mr Bill voice) |
Quandary : Has this bus fallen off the cliff with anybody on board --- Bose ????? (Mr. Bill included). |
Rodman99999...The deal with the flat mic amp acting as a phono preamp is that for the tweeter/midrange all you need to do is roll off the boosted highs of the raw signal. Why boost the low end, only to cut it later in a crossover. Of course the woofer signal must have the regular RIAA boost, so you end up with a biamplification preamp. The whole system needs to be coordinated with the speaker design, and other sources, like Tuner, need special provisions. A can of worms, no doubt, but, for Phono, the resulting clarity of the highs is interesting.
|
Mr. C- A few threads ago Mr. E and I had some discourse concerning the integration of Behringer and Bose systems. We just sort of picked it back up for a moment in here. Sorry if we offended by hi-jacking your thread briefly. Mr. E- I've got nine paragraphic EQ memories available in my TacT, and might just try setting one with an RIAA curve one day. That and a nice tubed mic pre(with 64db of gain) might be a sweet phono stage. OOPS- We did it again, didn't we? Sorry Mr. C! |
R : Your forgiven only if the rest of us are included, Mr. Bill too. |
That's music to my ears!! |
I have A 500's as monoblocks for my desktop at home, and an A 500 in stereo for my desktop at the office.
I have never switched them off, and all 3 continue to work perfectly. |
Cwlondon: How long have they been operational ? |
All of the above is great and heartwarming to me; at some point a desire for better sound and equipment takes hold and helps sustain the quest for better sound.
I guarantee that there is a difference between these amps and their higher quality brethren and it is simply a matter of time. |
Stevecham : The thread is entitiled Best Amps for the Price of Dirt, not best amps regardless of price. Just a Post Note, I have friends that spend & spend and a few that just don't have any objections to buying most anything that mates with the other $$$$$$ they own. Even they find fault(s) with their amps. So, that's just the way of the hobby -- Ear fatigue hits all and nothing is perfect. The thrust of the Thread is to alert the cash aware they exist for lots less than some alternatives. No more or less -- A great buy (to some). All the Best. |
I am not sure how good are those 500's but it would be interesting to see Trends Audio T-amp in comparison. IMHO , with right speaker those 500's would have had a very hard time keeping up. I got two of those in bi-amp mode.
Paid $200 for bought amps.......great deal in my book. On top of everything , the sound they produce is great. Speaker match is the most important factor when considering these for the system. Speakers/amp match is a must , then it is just pure enjoyment.
Just another alternative to spice things up a little.
Cheers |
Glow amp one. $488 brand new! 5 watt pentode single ended. |
Happy: I did review the 6 moons article , the Glow One @ $488 per side isn't bad @ 5w. The A-500's are solid state, adjustable output @ up to 500w 8 ohms per side , thats 1000w total, stable on loads @ 2 ohms and when I purchased them including an exrea 2 years of warranty, $194 each delivered. |
Crem1
So far, I think +/- 18 months.
I have never had a problem, and never turned them off - other than once in a while when they have suffered a power outage which is more than average where we live.
Periodic outages and/or surges have also not affected them, perhaps more evidence that they are more robust than the price tag would suggest.
They do have a cheesey plastic front panel and volume knobs, but otherwise seem heavier and better built than I would have expected.
I continue to believe that the most vocal detractors of these amps must be dealers of overpriced, struggling brands.
Enjoy the dirt,
cwlondon |
Dirt Lovers: Soon, I intend to hook up two A500's directly to a Oppo DV-970 HD ( $577.00 total investment) connecting them to the Nova Evolution III Speakers ($39,500.00 the last time I checked). I'll keep you informed should that combo comes close to the Big Rig. |
Crem1,
I am very curious to hear from you on that combo?
Peter |
Pedrillo : Thanks, I will be posting later in the summer. |
Hi All,
I have no experience with the amps mentioned in this thread,except for the original NoRh Le Amp mono's.
I think I paid ~$300-$350 for a mint but used pair.
IMO,the best amp for 'the price of dirt'
would have to be one of Tim Rawson's clone amps.
At one time I had a $2500 retail,all time classic,and possibly on a short list of one of the best SS amps ever built,A Pass Labs Aleph-3.
I can still kick myself for selling it.The only reason I sold it was I bought some super hard to drive Thiels.
I should have kept the Aleph-3 and bought speakers that mated well with the Aleph-3, but thats now water under the bridge.
I recently bought a 15 wpc, full class A bias (super hot running) Aleph Mini J(fets) Tim had built and sold to me for $235 shipped.
The Aleph Mini has all the air,detail,huge sounstage etc, I remember my old Aleph-3 having.
What surpised me the most is the incredible bass the Aleph Mini puts out.
Hands down a winner in that area over the 30 wpc Aleph-3. The bass of the Aleph-3 has always been its weakness anyway.
If you feel you need more power,Tim offers a 30wpc/60wpc @ 4ohm Aleph-3 clone.
I have no need for more power than 15 wpc.and get more than enough power and volume running the Aleph Mini through my 98dB 16ohm Electro-voice 12-TRXB's or my 96-98dB 8ohm Sansui SP-2700 speakers.
One nice thing about buying from Tim is he will build a custom amp for a buyer.
Send him some good qualty wire,upgrade RCA's and speaker posts, and he will wire the amp with the wire and install the RCA's and posts.
I have a friend who sent Tim several upgraded parts,and even with the cost of the parts,his Aleph Mini only cost him $300
Again,I you need more power than 15wpc,and dont want upgraded parts (and a higher labor cost) you can usually score a 30WPC Aleph-3 clone for ~$300.
You might want to look at other amps Tim builds also. The Gain Clone reportedly sounds very good, and is quite cheap to buy.
I see Tim has built and listed a couple more amps. Search 'aleph' or 'clone'
Tims amps sell quickly so you have to be on your toes to snatch one.
dave
|
These really intrigues me. I've been looking to move on from my current setup of two vertically bi-amped Adcom GFA-545 amplifiers, I should be able to sell these for the A500's price.
Would this be a worthwhile endeavour? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Speakers are Paradigm Studio 100 v1. |
"One nice thing about buying from Tim is he will build a custom amp for a buyer."
I wish. he wouldn't respond to my posts here OR his e-mail. |
Cdc,
Your statement surprises me.
Tim has always quickly responded to several emails I've sent him, and a bud of mine who had a custom amp built by him. |
Whether or not he responds to any inquiry, does someone have a web link or contact details for Mr Rawson?
Thank you, |
Pedrillo : I revamped my listening space using the A500's & the APPO hooked to my ref. speakers. The A500's are so better than the trash talk in HI-FI and under $400 US a pair w/ext-warrenty. If your looking for a far less-expensive alternative w/ stunning musical sound this dirt cheep combo will not disappoint w/ the APPO ($169 US). Are they a Krell or a Mac ? NO , but none of you friends may tell the difference. Just my opinion. I love them and alternate between the A500's and my very costly gear ; six months in six months out. Tubes in winter. |
Readers: It is true that the published bench tests reveal the A500's may not spec, as well as, say a Bryston. That is a fact. Nevertheless, the claim is these differences are subtel :The 500's are more than good enought to "meet all criteria for transpartent sound " , as stated in a review. That critic believes no one , except a few 18 year olds , could actually hear the difference. Well, I'm over 18 so that leaves me out of the debate.
It is my opinion, the A500 , as a mono blocks, are the most amazing find/value in Audio-Land. Period. For what they offer & for such value, an eager ear candy person (like me) can shift funds to upgrading the P/A or speakers to the surprise or chagrin of the other ear hounds. The only unanswered "Q" had to do with reliability; so far they answer as flawless, high performers , at the lowest price. I crown the A500's " The Best Amp(s) for the Price of Dirt " and you would also, should you buy them. |
I'm with Crem1 - I continue to use an A500 on my desktop at the office, and a pair of A500 as monoblocks on my desk at home.
I NEVER turn them off, even through bad weather and thunderstorms, and I have never had a problem - they don't even get hot to the touch.
As good as Bryston, Pass, Levinson or ARC monoblocks? probably not. But these things sound pretty darn good.
I would say they somehow don't seem as powerful as claimed, but I otherwise continue to be delighted with these amps.
Can someone please also recommend:
"Best associated components for the price of dirt"
to use with our reigning champion for
"Best amp for the price of dirt"?
Best Wishes
|
09-10-08: Crem1
Readers: It is true that the published bench tests reveal the A500's may not spec, as well as, say a Bryston. That is a fact. Nevertheless, the claim is these differences are subtle :The 500's are more than good enought to "meet all criteria for transparent sound " , as stated in a review. That critic believes no one , except a few 18 year olds , could actually hear the difference. Well, I'm over 18 so that leaves me out of the debate. Except for one thing, and I find it incredible that more people don't make a point of this: treble extension in electronics is also indicative of its overall speed. The issue is not so much whether you can hear a 0.5dB drop at 18KHz, it's that if it's flat only to 10KHz, that means the amp is only fast enough for a rise time of 5 milliseconds. An amp linear out to 100 KHz (and many are) would have a rise time nearly ten times as fast--around 500 microseconds. You may not be able to hear much beyond 16KHz, but I think most people can hear the difference between a rise time of 5 ms and 500 micro-secs. Anybody who's heard a Spectral amp could tell you that. I don't know why Aczel conveniently ignores that fact. That doesn't mean the A500 doesn't deliver fair value; it obviously does. But here's another "dirt cheap" approach--the Onkyo A-9555. This is an integrated amp that you can get on the Internet from an authorized dealer for $400-500. It has a decent built-in phono preamp. When it's fully broken in, which takes a good 100 hours, it's competitive with amps up to $2K, and preferable over many between $1K and $1.5K at least. Unlike the Behringer's dodgy specs vs. measurements, the A-9555 has a usable frequency response out to 100 KHz, (measurements here) and I can attest that this is one fast amp. With this speed (every sound wave is formed more quickly with less slop) there is a very audible improvement in clarity and the ability to hear multiple harmonic, melodic, and bass lines easier than with a conventional amp. This is very audible to even a casual listener, and you don't have to hear to 20KHz to be able to notice it, especially with more complex music. The distortion curve is very flat, varying very little around the .1 % mark from 10 to 20KHz. It puts out a solid 100 wpc into 8 ohms and 175 into 4 ohms, both channels driven. It's able to deliver a lot of current when called for, and the amp sounds bigger than its power rating would suggest. Being an integrated, you get a 7-input linestage and a pretty decent phono stage thrown in as well. Plus, the back panel accepts RCA inputs and you can connect speaker cables via bananas. Oh, and a remote control and a 3-year warranty. This amp is currently made in Japan, so the build quality is excellent. I'm not saying that this is a *better* deal than the Behringer, but all things considered, even though the purchase price is higher, it's at least as good a value. |
Johnnyb53, Thank you for a thoughtful view of the A-9555. We "dirt" folks need all the options that can be had in Audio-World. Do you have any recommendations for DVD/CD players ? I personally like the OPPO products , what about you. |
09-11-08: Crem1
... Do you have any recommendations for DVD/CD players ? I personally like the OPPO products , what about you. Yep! I have a DV-980H and like it a lot. Its SACD playback is quite nice and I can finally appreciate the extra mmph that HDCD-encoded CDs bring to the party. I was also surprised at what a difference DVD-A made over CD. And if I want better smoothness and resolution than the Oppo can provide, I just spin vinyl through my new Onkyo A-9555! The Onkyo beats many $500 players all to heck, and completely walks away from the Philips SA 963 it replaced. |
Johnnyb53, Any hands on experience with record player's (that's all in one)? |
09-12-08: Crem1
Johnnyb53, Any hands on experience with record player's (that's all in one)? Could you elaborate on what you mean by that? |
