I have dedicated audio room 14.5x20.5x9 ft. Currently have Marantz Reference CD/Intergrated paired to Magnepan 1.7's with REL T-7 subs. For the vast majority of music I love this system. The only nit pick is that it is lacking/limited in covering say below 35 hz or so. For the first time actually buzzed the panel with an organ sacd. Bummer. Thought of upgrading subs to rythmicks but then I will need to high pass the 1.7's. Really don't want to deal with that approach.
Enter the Double Impacts. Many interesting things here. Would certainly have a different set of strengths here. Dynamics, claimed bottom octave coverage in one package, suspect a good match to current electronics.
I've read all the threads here so we do not need to rehash that. Just wondering if others out there have FIRST HAND experience with these or other Tekton speakers
Hi Aric, I really appreciate your clear and thorough answer. Some really hard core diehards tend to favor AC heating particularly for the 45 and 2A3 tubes. The 300b seems to be the dividing point (in terms of power) and above this level (say 211 or 845) then DC is preferable for the reasons you gave.
I've had some very experienced builders say the same as you in that DC can sound every bit as good as AC. Given your knowledge I was interested in your take on this topic. Thanks again. Charles
Also, something to note- is the 6G4B is capable of 5.5 watts RMS in single-ended mode (single tube), as opposed to 3.5 watts for the 2A3. Parallel 6G4B can do closer to 8 watts (the same as a single 300B).
@mac48025 - I'm really stoked that you're still loving the Transcend 88/120 amplifier, and I agree the 150's don't have the same "magic" in the midrange as some of the well-regarded KT88's. I occasionally switch back and forth between the types- and for loud, highly-percussive rock, or fast paced metal (I admit to listening to all genders of music regularly- but with a lean more towards alt-rock or jam-band), I think they can give a presentation of a good quality tube sound- but with power "feeling" more like it's in the 60 watt per channel range. However when I go back to critical listening (and not a "crank this baby up" type of song), I feel the midrange lushness of the JJ blue glass 88's in this amp are VERY convincing in presentation towards true SET realism.
@charles1dad and @sbayne -
With regards to AC or DC. With Pentodes, tight twisting and layout of AC filaments can reduce all but the slightest of "ear to the speaker" hum. With Triodes, the 2A3 seems receptive to AC using good layout.
However larger magnetic fields are induced with higher voltage and/or current filaments tubes (like the 845 which I would only use DC for the filaments).
It seems the 6B4G (requiring 6.3 volts at 1 amp), would be a good candidate for AC heaters (since the draw and field is not large- even the KT series tubes get by with AC- and they draw almost twice the current). AC seems just a hair more "lively" in my opinion. That said, a good, simple circuit with respect to layout/lead dress, and using good quality parts in the signal path, and a good driver stage- should still yield a very lively system. Aric
Aric, Thanks for the reply. Yes, eventual "drifting"-of matched tubes was the concern. Your solution of having separate bias control for each output tube seems as though it would solve that problem. Aric regarding hum are you a proponent of DC heating versus AC heating in low power SETs or is either acceptable to you? Charles
@sbayne The 6B4G does not seem hard to work with. It would appear to require a bit more of a swing at the grid to drive to full output than say a 2A3, but isn't anything difficult to achieve. It also requires similar voltages and output transformer. As far as keeping the amp quiet (hum free), following good grounding and chassis isolation techniques as well as a choke-filtered power supply should keep it silent. I don't have hum issues with any of my single ended amplifiers after learning good layout and grounding techniques. Aric
@charles1dad It would seem similar to the issues when doing push pull in that one tube will either be pushing or pulling harder than the other. One way to avoid this is using matched tubes, or to have a variable bias for each tube (instead of a balancing pot used in many push pull design). However I do see that using closely matched tubes would help, although once they burn in their specs will drift somewhat and not always in the same way. By having a separate bias adjust for each tube you could fine tune the current each one is drawing. One drawback however to parallel SE is the double current requirements for filaments and the high voltage requirements. Best, Aric
After listening to the KT 150's for a few hours I put the KT 88's back in and the KT 88's are much more to my liking. The KT 150's provided a very big sound with extended highs ( too much so for me) but lacked the sweet midrange and overall musicality that the KT 88's provide in Aric's amp. That makes me wonder just how much more midrange magic a 2A3 or 300B SET from Aric would offer. The Transcend amp is my fav of all the amps I've owned and very much remind me of the sound achieved when Charles brought his Frankensteins over. I can't say that the Transcend is as good as the Frankensteins as its been a while since they were here but it brings about the same sense of realism in music that I remember the Frankensteins providing. That's saying a lot for Aric's amp! Suffice it to say I'm VERY happy with Aric's amp and it makes a great pairing with the DI's......and I'm sure it will with the SE's also. Time will tell.
Hi Aric, I can see the advantages of a parallel SET (PSET) design. One issue I’ve seen raised concerning this parallel configuration is maintaining equal power sharing from each tube in the pair. Apparently there’s a tendency for one of the tubes to become dominant and the other tube provides lesspower/current output.
Audio Note has been making PSETs for a long time and I assume that they have solved this problem. It seems that some other PSETs perhaps not. PSET 2A3 or 300b would seem a very good fit with the Double Impact/SE. Charles
@premnath - that's some very nice amps you've owned. Very impressive the Berning 6b4g stands well ahead of those. You indicated they are built to order which explains why I haven't been able to find anything on his website. Can you confirm the specs for us? Someone mentioned earlier the Berning 6b4g is PP, output of 10 watts/channel and it costs $7K? Thanks.
I have been using the Berning 6b4g amp now for nearly a year. Mine was the first 6b4g amp Berning built. In fact he has even etched his signature on the amp.
In the past I have used Dehavilland 845 Aries SET monoblocs with their Mercury preamp, a Rethm Gaanam amp, Vinnie Rossi’s amp, a customised 2a3 SET amp using Dave Slagle components including his nickel based output transformer along with his auto former vol control
I personally feel the Berning amp is way ahead. It captures all the magic of a 2a3 SET amp along with great extension and amazing dynamics.
Just in the for what it's worth category if any of you have an interest in EL84 amps for your DI's or other speakers ( I have Daedalus Argos V2' s)
I recently decided to give one a try (I'm an impulsive shopper) and picked up a Finale Audio (sister company of Triode Lab) 7189 (2) integrated amp 20 wpc, though Frank at Finale said mine measured 22 wpc with the upgrade to Hashimoto output transformer vs the standard Hammond. I also had them upgrade to Mundorf silver in oil caps, and DH Labs RCAs. The amp can run EL 84, 7189, 6BQ5, or 7189A & EL84M. I have about 70 hours on the amp and after about 30 hours I swapped in NOS GE 12AX7's and a RCA 5AR4 for the JJs that it came with, I left in the NOS Russian 6N14N-EBs (7189A equivalent) , though I just received an order of NOS GE 7189A's from Brent Jesse and will give them a try at some point. To my ears the amp is musical across the board with good separation and retrieval . I listen primarily to smooth jazz, blues, classic R&B, and some classic rock.
Thanks muzikmann, I knew it was a new poster to thread here and I should have taken the time to find the posts. And yes, the fact that David Berning uses it as his personal amp says a lot. Of course David is using the 6b4g in his ZOTL design. So many amp options and so little time......dare we bring up the Lyngdorf as yet another option?
@rmasoni has personally recommended it on the tube amp thread I asked for input on:
"Call David Berning directly and ask him to tell you about his 300B or 6B4G push-pull amp that he builds on request. It is spectacular. His ZOTL circuitry, fully balanced, Class A. He included 47 step Goldpoint attenuator when he built mine - so it can be used as an "integrated", albeit with a single input (either RCA or XLR). Will cost you around $7K, but there is nothing like it - check out Harley's double down on the Flagship 211/845. You get the same sound in a smaller package."
@mac48025, User "Premnath" mentioned his
Berning 6b4g amp
twice in postings yesterday. He also mentioned that this amp is what Berning personally listens to, so it might be good.
@teajay - A 6A3 tube has the same filament characteristics as a 6B4G but is on a 4-pin UX-4 base like the 2A3. I had a DHT 6A3 amp years ago that was very nice but had a little too much hum. I suppose a DC version would have solved the hum problem. If Aric can build a DHT 6A3 or 6B4G with no hum I'll probably be calling him too!
If I have my facts right, the 6b4g tube is an octal base more powerful version of the 2A3. It supposed to be a "twin" sonicly to the 2A3; however, in a SET design it creates 10 watts per channel!
I left a message already with Aric to see if he would be interested in building one.
@mikeg Both sound like good options. I'm not familiar with the Tidal amps. Do they still make them? I loved the Ayon Spirit II integrated I had ages ago.
In case this helps influence your choice, my wife is partial to Porsche. She has much better taste than me.
I'd be perfectly happy with a Golf and would be ecstatic to drive and own a GTI or R.
My daily ride is a work bike for commuting and transport and groceries etc. So my recommendation is for a Surly Big Dummy. Hope the innuendo (no disparagement intended) is appreciated.
Don't do that David, you may not like the answer you get 😆 Aric already knows I'm nuts as I've already inquired about having him build me a 2A3 SET. I it's given that most of here are crazy, but it's a good crazy. I've yet to own a true SET and the 2A3's greatly intrigue me so maybe I'm destined to own both the KT 120 SEP and a 2A3 SET.
From everything I hear your Pass combination is amazing......but then teajay replaced his Pass pre and amp with the MZ2 and 2A3 SET, so the possibilities are endless. If only I my pocketbook was also 🤑
@mac48025 Thanks. It’s good to have your current take on Aric’s amp using the KT88s and then how the 150s work for you in the future.
I’m a huge fan of the 2A3 but was worried about the SE’s efficiency and took that option off the table. It’s nice to have it back in the mix.
I started a thread for tubed amp recommendations at a higher power output level than the 2A3 and received a number of great suggestions and options to consider.
The Pass XP-20 - XA-30.8 combination within my system is sublime. I should be asking Aric if he can build a box to check my sanity. : )
The two Go_lf amps I plan on using separately are the Tidal Audio Impact (120 watts/ch ss) and the Ayon Audio Odin III Build 4 (50 watts/ch SET). Will the Tekton DI SE care if I use Porsc_e amps? Will these amps mate well?
I don't think you can go wrong with any of those options David and I look forward to seeing what you end up with.
The Transcend amp with KT 88's sounds wonderful on the DI's and I'm looking forward to hearing the SE's on it also. Im going to try some KT 150's with it later today. A 2A3 SET amp intrigues me also and I very well could be talking to Aric about building me one also. The idea of having the Transcend amp for more dynamic slam and the 2A3 for more midrange purity is very appealing to me. Never thought I'd be considering two different amps for my system!
@aricaudio Aric, Great to know that you are open to a parallel 2A3 build and other options such as the 211.
As you know, I'm working on getting the digital front end finalized. Once the SEs are in system and I have a good feel for them, a path forward will be much clearer.
I'm still leaning towards more power, i.e. going with 120s/150s...but now that @branayi and @teajay both endorse the 2A3 paired to the SE after their auditions of the SEs...I can put the 2A3 option back on the table.
I'll reach out via email, after the SEs have been in system for a week or so.
David, I suspect that we agree more than we disagree. You cited Ezra and that’s a good example because he has solid context. His DI SE speakers compared to his expensive Sonus Fabers. You can agree or not with his personal experiences but he does have vital and very credible context. I’ll be the first to say that there are superb sounding expensive speakers.
A few examples that impressed me significantly Kaiser Kawero Tidal Contriva Diadora Cessaro Liszt Rockport Altair speakers Trenner-Friendl RA Box Dynaudio Evidence Platinum TAD Reference One floorstanding
These were all truly excellent in the respective systems I heard them in. My gut feeling is take the Double Impact SE pair it with a superb source and first rate amplification, it won’t be embarrassed (and not claiming that it would be better). Just a hunch on my part. Just listen. Charles
It ultimately comes down to one's interpretation. I knew I'd be in the minority, and that's ok by me.
You and others, that have more history here and a much deeper and wider exchange between members both in public on the forum, or privately through more personal means, can perhaps 'read' more into one's posts and what may or may not be implied.
We've all been on that spectrum somewhere between belief and disbelief with respect to the Double Impacts. I'm fine with someone essentially stating that they don't believe. Sometimes that disbelief manifests as questioning credibility. Happens all the time. And there will be those that never believe. I'm good with that too.
Rather than some of the responses that poured forth, I would much rather see those like Ezra or others who have high end systems come forward with their thoughts and impressions and reasons for why they moved forward with a DI or an SE or an Ulfberth. Credibility is built, usually very slowly...and I hope that those that can -- work on shedding more light to illuminate the path and make it easier to travel.
Hi David, Well it looks like we have different perspectives on this matter. I feel the same as Mac and Vitop, someone "hears" the speaker and doesn’t like them, okay no problem. Someone says the speaker isn’t as good as speaker A orB because it doesn’t cost enough is a silly argument IMO. These are very different scenarios which generate different responses. Anyway that is my 2 cents worth. You are still my brother 😊. Charles
Personally, I am not troubled when someone has a contrary opinion to mine. Always been an independent thinker without a need to be in the mainstream of things. If someone wants to challenge much of the consensus on this thread--go for it. On occasion it rather livens things up. Even the occasional troll doesn't bother me anymore, as they are usually recognized for what they are (and don't deserve a response).
BUT, if you want to have any credibility please don't form an opinion on gear you haven't even heard. So I don't feel too badly that some of the members here reacted strongly. They were not rising up to the Tekon cause but rather to rightly challenge a very flawed opinion.
In concept I completely agree. But when opinions are presented based on one criteria (cost) with no actual personal experience...
And even when questioned, then continues the same rhetoric with no real argument (again, other than cost because it is the only criteria they know), I believe it is different than what you have in mind.
Open discussion such as someone not liking the speaker after listening to it is very valuable and worthy of discussion. Sadly, I have seen people get jumped on ANY time a negative comment is made, and I don’t agree with that either, but when a person has a belief that is close minded (ok with me) and just keeps parroting the same stuff regardless of people trying to engage, then I lose patience with it. I guess maybe I should just stay out of it, but as much as I love to understand different perspectives and how those perspectives were built, there has to be an actual engagement in ideology. not just hashing the same thing back again and again.
They must be better because they cost more as a recurring defense is not openness and engagement, and I am sorry if I offend anyone... it is not meant to.
If manufacturers fairly listened to competitors products and priced their own products based on how much better or worse than competitors, I guess that would be a start, but "better" has many criteria and each is subjective. And in no parallel universe is pricing done that way.
It is done based on cost of materials (and more costly materials are not always the best), company overhead, labor, desired profit, and quite frankly how much the market will bear based on the perception of the product. It is not unusual at all to find some more expensive products not being as good as less expensive competition. At the same time, sometimes the more expensive product IS the best. But to use only the price without even having heard it, does not promote any sort of credibility. To keep defending it with no more data than before is a waste of everyones time, not a suffocation of open discussion.
JMO, and sorry if I have offended. It is just how I feel.
That our general reaction, the number of reactions to the post, some of the tone used, the 'defensiveness' of some of the posts, some may even say the 'aggressiveness' of some of the responses....
....don't encourage participation or openness, especially when they are contrary to or in opposition of....
....irrespective of what he said or wanted to communicate or imply.
As I mentioned in my former post, this is less about the post itself, but the consequences and impact of our choices in response to it.
Tom, Thanks for making that recommendation as well- it's greatly appreciated! I believe the larger Pentodes used in Triode-mode can really get you 90% of the way to the signature SET sound while getting you greater power and control over the drivers. I'm glad you're digging the Transcend 120/88 amplifier! Best, Aric
Hey David, I would absolutely be up for a parallel 2A3, or the same using 300B's if you're seeking the sweet mid-range of a true SET. A very competent design could be built using relatively standard parts that won't break the bank as well. A big part of the synergy of the sound produced simply relies on good synergy between components. I can also design around the 211 or 845's (I'm working on a very high end build now for a client around those tubes). Feel free to message me anytime with any ideas you have and I would be happy to work with you on a build! Best wishes, Aric
David, I have much appreciation for you as you know. Here's my take, Shadorne is dismissive of Clement Perry and Teajay due to their praise of a speaker heard in their respective systems. It bothers him that they both find the DI comparable or even better than more expensive speakers. More expensive speakers they have formally reviewed in their main listening system by the way.
Shadorne finds this unacceptable and besmirches the credibility of both! Shadorne has zero listening experience with this same speaker. He has no reference point or context other than price point. David my friend, what am I missing here? Charles
I'm with Charles on this. I have absolutely no issue with someone sharing their opinion on a product even if it's in disagreement with my experience.....IF they've actually listened to said product. One can learn a lot reading dissenting opinions but one can't have a true opinion about a product without having actual experience with it......and stating the DI can't be as good as speakers costing much more and that any reviewer suggesting as much is ridiculous is especially illogical. According to that reasoning I could buy some Bose speakers, slap my own label on them, price them at $100k/pair and they would automatically be assumed to be better than the DI's. Not only that, any reviewer that said the DI's sounded better than my newly created $100k speakers would instantly lose credibility in shadornes mind. Anyone basing audio performance solely upon price, especially without even listening to the products, is more interested in status than sound.
Eric, Good point, but again the feedback from dissatisfied customers is based on them having heard the speaker. Would you accept negative feedback from someone who hasn't even listened to the speakers? Charles
David, I respectfully disagree with your post 😊. This has been and continues to be an open thread with different viewpoints and experiences expressed. No rule says we all must agree (and we don’t). You wrote that we see and "hear" differently and that is true. Keyword is hear. So what has Shadorne heard regarding the DI to base his opinion on?
Of course he’s free to post comments here and by the same token people are free to ask for clarification or some modicum of substance to support what he writes. Is this asking too much? To me this is what dialogue is all about. How is he in a position to judge performance of a product he has never heard? How is this enlightenment? Charles
Loved your: "I personally would like to learn from those who do not see or hear things the way I do." line.
When a client returns a pair of speakers to me he usually has a lot to say about it. His feedback is the most valuable piece of information I can be fed. I take that feedback and go back to work on the speaker and make the proper adjustments.
Shadorne, In an earlier post today I asked you to share your listening impression of the Double Impacts. It seems clear that you have no actual direct listening experience with these speakers. Your car analogy is simply a function of how you believe things should be as opposed to how they may actually be.
Audio is simple in this regard, you listen to a product and form an opinion. Subjective? It's all that we have, you must hear something in order to properly judge its merit and performance. You present no factual basis for your Double Impact assessment. Apparently you've determined that you have it figured out based on their cost and nothing more.
As mentioned above byVitop and I raised a couple of weeks ago, there is a strong element of snobbery in High End audio amongst some. You appear to fall into this niche. You haven't heard the Double Impact and likely feel that you don't need to. You've determined its sonic performance based solely on its cost. Not a rational position in my opinion. Charles
Eric, et al., I too prefer the sound of the impact, (Double Impact) ; ) of live music. The best sound, to me, is the true sound of ACOUSTIC instruments. That is the benchmark. ALL amplified music has coloration and the difficulty is in reproducing acoustic music via electronic delivery systems, and here is my point. With my current system, BAT and DI there really aren't any live broadcast systems that come anywhere near what I have in my living room. It used to be that I could enjoy this quality of music in Weil Hall at Sonoma State University but alas no more. The new director has wreaked havoc on the sound system there. ALL music amplification outside my house is a huge step down for me unless it is acoustic performance. My dream? I would love to see Eric produce a line of speaker for night clubs, small venues, stages, etc. that will rival my couch sound!!! Why must we endure the torture of terrible music everywhere when the possibility of great sound at a reasonable cost exists? I am forever ruined!
I will come to the defense of @shadorne 's post for a number of reasons most of which I sincerely believe (my opinion) are for the benefit of this thread and those who own Tekton speakers, and not the post per se.
He clearly makes the comparison of high value vs absolute performance, which is evident in the first post. I think all of us can agree on this, whether a car analogy is used or not.
It is fair of us to ask him to elaborate and for those so inclined, who expect more, to substantiate. He did. His position is a general one. Nothing wrong with that. Many active here have made similar general statements about any number of topics / components / etc. and some even based on a lack of first hand or in-depth experience (but on experience of the field). These don't get challenged simply because they have been supportive.
His post generated a natural and understandable reflex --- I have no problem with that and I do understand it and why it happens --- but I do wonder how we ultimately benefit when those following (which is far, far greater than those posting) hesitate from participating when it is clear what the natural reaction to posts that question these speakers, or issues around it, will elicit?
It's also obvious that some who were previously active here and collaborated to the greater good of this thread are conspicuously absent of late.
Our behaviour, and I include all posting here, drives the evolution of this thread.
I personally would like to learn from those who do not see or hear things the way I do. The only way I see this being possible is to be open and not as reactive as all of us have at times been, myself included.
Agreed, wine too is another perfect analogy. When YG Acoustic ran their "best sounding speaker on earth" campaign 10 years ago I called him on it (through emails) and I used the wine analogy. I felt it was like a wine producer saying: "I simply make the best tasting wine on earth - period". Furthermore, I asked him: "if you make the best sounding speaker on earth which one is it...?? After all, you have no fewer than 3 speaker models." When you say you have the best sounding speaker on earth it must be one single model, right? The dialog between us progressed and we each agreed upon a head-to-head winner-take-all shootout. I'm ready to go on my end, but it hasn't happened.
Like wine sound is so subjective. Some of us are musicians and we know what live sound is because we live it and we crave this exact sound reproduced in our hi-fi systems. On the opposite end of the spectrum, some audiophiles prefer a warm, liquid, fluid presentation; this is so far removed from real live dynamic music, yet it's such a beautiful expression of art.
I guess a car is not the right analogy. how abot wine. subjective, different taste... use same grape, same region. i may enjoy more a Joseph Phelps than a screamin Eagle. i may simply find a wine maker of great talent doing his magic and creating a wine that many people prefer over the $2,000 bottle and pay $25.
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