GK you forgot to isolate from neutrinos. Those little buggers are bombarding your Panasonic as we speak. The horror! The horror!!!!
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
2,164 responses Add your response
mapman, Thanks for the explanation. As fate would have it (I hope that is not copyrighted), I attempted to listen to SR-80 at the store that was so noisy that the only thing I was able to conclude is that they do not isolate from the store noise that well. geoffkait, I must have been in deep sleep when you mentioned about SR-80. I apologize for redundant question and am thankful for answer. However, what Panasonic CD player do you have? And, while we are at it, what Walkman? |
Grado sr80es are very easy to drive and are amazingly detailed and revealing especially for their paltry price. Can’t do better perhaps in regard to being able to listen into the music for <$100. I use them mostly with portable devices (ipad, Iphone) and often but not always with Chord Mojo DAC/amp which tends to up the game of most things it is used with. |
As fate would have it they were Grado SR-80s the whole time. Duh? You were probably napping when I mentioned it earlier somewhere. As fate would also have it, I picked up brand sparking new Grado SR-60s just three days ago for $5 which I’ll be using for my portable cassette player. Once I get rid of the abominable ear pads and foam, of course. What was Joe thinking? See, there’s my perception of sound thing again. Thanks for asking. 😬 Questions, you have questions? Shirley, there must be some others. |
geoffkait, Did you buy Grado 80 after not-so-long-ago mapman's recommendation to you to upgrade from SR 60, or you had had them before that and he was incorrect in assuming you had SR 60? On a more important note, what model of Panasonic CD player is it that you have and why did you decide on that one? |
@audiopoint, I kind of went the way of MG’s Low Mass System concept, more by coincidence really, inasmuch as I downsized about 3 years ago to the point where there is no more amplifier, no more World’s Most Modded Oppo CD Player, no more House AC, no finicky AC Ground, no power cords, no interconnects, no speaker cables, no big toxic transformers, no more fuses, no multitude of electrical connections to worry about, no chassis to fret about. And because I went to a headphone system there is no more concern about room treatments, at least the usual ubiquitous ones. I do actually employ many thousands of the unspeakable type of treatments around the house as you can perhaps image. Perhaps not. 😬 In any case, my current system of Made in Japan Panasonic portable CD player and naked Grado SR-80 headphones are pretty light. Just to be on the safe side the Panny is up on a highly specialized isolation platform which is mostly glass crystal and glass and glass micro beads for high mass, all of which are up on some springs of my design. The Crystal Palace or Palace of Solitude as I like to call it comes in around 50 lbs. so, I kind of doubt there would be a place for a Sistrum but I appreciate the offer. I suggest you try some springs directly under whatever component you have sitting on a Sistrum. You know, for isolation. Never up, never in. Besides, doesn’t MG use springs? |
@geoffkait >>>>Let me answer with a question. Why are the very hardest cones have the best performance and the softer cones like brass and carbon fiber sound the worst? Depending on geometry - the shapes of cones will always vary performance greatly. The hardest cones according to your opinion have the best performance referring to Mohs’ scale as some type of scientific proof that hardness is a finer conductor for resonance where that relationship is extremely subjective at best. Depending on material - brass is manmade where the chemistry and metallurgy varies greatly from supplier to supplier. There are quite a few choices when it comes to brass selections used in production that adds another variable in establishing performance criterion for comparison sake. Depending on metallurgy - where a cheaper imported brass might look the same and even have the same “certifications in print” and are told it is the same material however we have gone through this process and will state otherwise. Metallurgy is critical to our product’s performance. Star Sound purchases a premium grade of brass and acquires it from a single source here in the States hence we benefit from thirty years of consistency in performance. We cannot speak for others. Depending on the cost of the cone - comparing a $25 part to a higher priced item establishes a disadvantage although in some areas of the marketplace the lesser cost remains the stronger performer. Depending on what the cone is resting on - a piece of wood will not yield the same result as any type of steel, copper, acrylic or carbon, etc shelf material. You make statements based on your analogy that somehow always relates to some type of chart or experiment having nothing to do with audio and/or sound. You can classify the brass cone as being part of your worst sound however the history and longevity supporting the Audio Point™ tends to prove otherwise. Keep in mind, our particular brass cone is but one part involving the geometries used in our platforms, mechanically grounded studio environments and musical instruments so it’s not just a cone but serves multiple purposes. Pop Quiz: Why is seismic vibration much more important for SQ than acoustic vibration or induced vibration? Especially for vinyl playback. Where on Earth does one acquire testing data that could possibly support an answer to such a loaded and highly subjective question as this? You forgot to include mechanical and electromechanical vibration in your question as these two also play a significant factor in the “importance role” of the formula but before any attempt to answer is even considered we need to know... Are we talking day to day every minute mini earthquakes, close proximity vehicle traffic, extreme SPL in a pressurized environment, low noise levels in a recording studio, seismic as in trains passing by, air conditioners on/off, etc.? Next - does your data or test methodology state how mechanical and electrical noise within all the electronic chassis was managed?
Next - what was the turntable resting on? A wood rack, an acrylic, a combo of lots of materials rack, a Sistrum Platform™, they all have very different performance values. The equipment rack is the foundation that either excels, limits or reduces the potential of any sound system and affects the outcome of all testing methodologies including what the test equipment itself is residing on. Next - what facility was used for the testing and what was the test criterion used to produce your findings other than your own opinions? Next - a biggie - what footer system factory or otherwise used to support the turntable or turntables? As you related to above there are differences between material, hardness and shapes govern audible performance where a simple factory turntable footer now controls the outcome and sonic results no matter what testing formula, equipment or methodology you used to set up this unanswerable question. What if the turntable footer is inefficient or less of a sonic performer - does that make the data and/or your opinion less relevant? Finally - how did you make comparisons between seismic and airborne resonance? Extra credit: Why is the material of the top plate of a vibration isolation stand relatively immaterial, to use a word? I presume you are talking about an electronic controlled isolation stand such as Kinetic Systems Bench Mate - correct? Otherwise we refer back to question one and two - refrain, refrain, refrain. We are limited by experience using these devices in audio applications as isolation is not a focus for our Company. In music reproduction we do not study nor rely on what is best for aerospace, biosciences, laser supports, etc. We do not study the effects of resonance related to electron microscope stability. Audio environments involve higher sound pressure levels that establish heavier amplitudes of resonance in comparison to what is generated in a clean room or scientific testing laboratory. Since isolation and resonance energy transfer methodologies are entirely different so is the sonic performance created from each product. We have experienced Kinetic Systems in comparison with our products at a local dealer where the sonic reproduction using the same turntable, speakers, racking, electronics and cables remained the same for comparison between both devices. The result in sound performance was extremely diverse. Two different theories, two different products (isolation and mechanical grounding) yield two very different sound qualities. It’s not like comparing two amplifiers of the same power and cost where one may point out minor differences in sonic. The differences are extremely audible where the listener will immediately know what performance is best for their sound - the differences are not subtle whatsoever. Try placing a Sistrum Platform under the isolation table. Your previous listening results and information from the table are now also subject to change. In closing:
We will never be able to answer ‘those’ questions due to the vagueness of ‘those’ questions. I was hoping you would answer our initial question. At some point, you should take us up on our offer to provide you a Sistrum Platform for your review. It might change your opinion on a few old school standards. Robert |
geoffkait, "I know what’s coming next. But what about this, what about that?" That is kind of funny. I do not have more questions of that kind at this moment, but am glad that you think of me that way. After all, isn't it you who thinks one should never be content and should always try to improve? I will take it as a compliment. Thank you. Hidden meaning I was talking about was you saying that your mentioning of the oboist was an appeal to authority. It did not come across as such. It came across just as a plain easily-understandable sentence. I was obviously underthinking. |
Gee whiz, glupson, you’re over thinking again. I judged his system sucked. No hidden meaning. That’s the advantage of knowing the difference between bad sound and good sound. I realize as I’m typing you probably have no idea what I’m talking about. 😀 I know what’s coming next. But what about this, what about that? 😛 look, I’m going to help you out. Here are some suggested questions, 1. What makes you a better judge of sound than a professional musician? 2. What if your hearing is actually bad and you’re deluded? 3. How can you be so sure of your hearing ability? Don’t you have any doubt? 4. Can you prove your hearing ability in a blind test? |
geoffkait, Regardless of others' views of music vs. sound, what Authority were you appealing to when you mentioned... "He was a musician, first oboe in National Symphony Orchestra, DC." It seemed like a reasonable statement of facts that served its purpose of describing the situation very clearly. Who would have thought that it had hidden meaning, too.
I understand that you disliked what you heard there, but may it be that said musician simply had different preferences than you did? Or, may it be, that his perception of sound is biased because of the position and surroundings, not to mention loudness level, that he frequently finds himself in while playing music himself? |
Wow! I just relayed the story, gentle readers, of the musician high up in the food chain who was apparently unable to hear properly or didn’t know what he was listening to. Then right out of the blue I’m attacked by the professor who, if memory serves, cannot for the life of him hear the difference for vibration isolation or cables. Coincidence? I’ve seen stalkers o’er my day....😬 |
geoffkait, I think you are 100% correct on both of those claims. Your third claim is a little hard to decipher. I do not see what your sentence
is an appeal to. It seems like a well-placed sentence to describe the circumstances and further reading. |
Caring about music and caring about sound are (mostly) two different things. I suspect many musicians probably don’t think too much about sound per se or may even wear ear plugs, not that I would know, but I have a hunch. Any more than some dude with a boom box. Besides, using a professional musician to try to back up some audiophile argument or another is an Appeal to....you know. |
geoffkait, Your oboist was a little different than my guys as he seemed to care about the sound, regardless of the outcome in our ears. I wanted to make a point that at least some of the people in the music-making business in fact do not care that much about the sound as we think about it. Of those two I mentioned, one had a solo piano concert at Carnegie Hall and the other one is Mozarteum-trained conductor who did conduct Vienna Philharmonics at times (not their resident conductor) and did Carnegie Hall, too. Had I not known the conductor since first grade of elementary school, I would have thought that such people cherish music reproduction and would be ardent audiophiles. Not even close and, yet, it is hard to say they do not care about music. |
Likened to the guy who has the $12kus bike frame, the $7kus wheel set, the $2kus slipstream skinsuit...and can’t ride a bike to save his life. All too common. The majority, in fact. (kinda sorta maybe, if one is being surly and tossing around pessimistic attitudes) However, it is that guy... who very much helps keep the doors open on the given businesses, so they can sell product - to the the riders who can actually ride, and who actually understand and appreciate the great products. And, maybe, over time, with exposure... the person might become a better rider, or eventually abandon their new cool game and toys. |
Actually, the conclusions one should draw from my ill-fated visit to the first oboist go much deeper than that, in view of the fact that we tend to put musicians, especially ones who play in big orchestras, on Olympus, since they presumably know good sound. You know, live acoustic music. Hel-loo! One could also point the finger in other directions, like a dealer in high end gear cannot hear, that room treatment is not a silver bullet, and that just because something looks fabulous or is expensive, which Cello stuff definitely is, doesn’t mean anything. It also implies what I was saying before, a photo of a room, a system, a component, guts in guts out, doesn’t mean anything. I also said there’s no Audio Nirvana. There is no absolute sound. It can always be improved, no matter what. Although, judging from comments by the cheering section on the Graphene thread, some folks appear to think they’ve achieved it. This is a different idea from the ideas that people can’t hear properly, or don’t know what they’re listening to, or that they’re all thumbs. I will refrain from extrapolating this whole idea to include recording engineers, exhibitors at Shows, reviewers and just plain folks with really big expensive systems. |
geoffkait’s story shows that there is no absolute in perception of music and that arguing about its quality is a silly process. For that oboe player, it must have been a good sound. Good for him. I have stories in a similar direction as geoffkait’s except that my guys did not even have anything more than maybe a boombox. geoffkait’s host at least invested some time and money in reproduction of music. Over years, I started thinking that hobby that involves striving for better audio reproduction (think Audiogon threads) is essentially a hobby of fakers. Not only because any kind of reproduction is basically fake, but also because that small sample of people I know and who could be considered "dedicated musicians", do not go crazy over what they listen to. There is nothing wrong with improving perceived quality by small steps (tweaking, tuning, engineering of some sorts, etc.) as it will, over time, yield higher standard for greater good. Not to mention that such a hobby is fairly benign despite of what you could conclude from reading some of the posts around here. |
Funny story. Once upon a time I went over to this dude’s house to demo a product. He was a musician, first oboe in National Symphony Orchestra, DC. He was also a dealer for Cello high end audio products and his system comprised all Cello, including drop dead gorgeous 8” tall piano black finish Cello speakers, biamped with Cello amps, plus what I reckon to be $10K of room treatment. So imagine my disappointment and horror when I heard what may have been the worst sound ever to emanate from a hi fi system. So much for the theory that all musicians have golden ears. |
"Sorry to state j47t, but the materials used to build the Pioneer chassis and chassis mass disqualifies the capability of holding a proverbial sonic candle in comparison to this design." proverbial sonic candles r i g h t :) good luck with that one Where is the transformer located on the amp you mention? |
Michael Green, It may really be time to revamp Tuneland website (audio one, not the game). Thread "Michael’s System" has a list of apparently similar topics at the bottom. Similar topics » Thomas Michael Boettger Jr..........found dead » One Woman in India dies every hour due to the dowry system » A very strong opinion about the Michael Brown shooting |
audiopoint, Thanks for reading my post. What I meant was that it seems like just wires stuck in the wall outlet. However, pictures are not that clear and that outlet is in the back so there may be something else that is there and which I did not notice. That is why I asked about it. If there is such an unnoticed thing involved, I would guess it has something to do with the orange-colored receptacle wires appear to be plugged in. It is truly intriguing to see it so I thought I would ask about the story behind it. You are way more technical than some of us so you may understand differences in materials and what to expect from certain configuration much better. Your praise of those amplifiers is interesting although I have to admit I got lost in the description of why they work in a certain way. Still, I would keep my mind open that someone very capable could, indeed, make a Pioneer receiver sound great. Seems unlikely, but we will not know until we try. And try we cannot unless we know how to make it that good. On a totally different note, but fully connected to that poor nostalgic-looking Pioneer we are dragging into this mess, I have another question. Many of the modifications/tuning/tweaks are on a very small level, yet they are allegedly producing significant changes in sound. Earlier in the thread, there was talk about removing covers, freeing capacitors, etc. with some theories how and why it may work. Removing a cover from a receiver, let it be this Pioneer for this purpose, exposes it to much more dust. Would the layer of dust on electronic parts influence the sound in any way? Does anyone have any theory about it? In case it does, would dusting it off be considered a tweak, tuning, or something third? If it does not influence the sound, why doesn't it? |
audiopoint My question for you is; what does hardness have to do with attack, sustain and decay qualities related to sound reproduction equipment or musical instruments? >>>>Let me answer with a question. Why are the very hardest cones have the best performance and the softer cones like brass and carbon fiber sound the worst? Pop quiz: Why is seismic vibration much more important for SQ than acoustic vibration or induced vibration? Especially for vinyl playback. Extra credit: Why is the material of the top plate of a vibration isolation stand relatively immaterial, to use a word? When you can answer those questions you will answer your own question. |
@geoffkait
Yes, in a nutshell... Mission and Vision: To create and establish a newfound science from understanding the detrimental effects caused by vibration ultimately affecting the operational performance of any equipment utilizing or manipulating power through its operation. Establishing a higher level of product operational efficiency while reducing power consumption. and standard operating procedure to let the vibrations flow freely, right? And this mission statement and SOP obviously precludes the use of vibration isolation, right? Yes and yes,
Yes, “True isolation” can never be achieved in real world applications. In audio, there are various techniques that alter sound through isolation principles however “true” isolation can never be achieved (physics, laws of gravity and motion and Coulomb’s law) in 'real world applications'. So, are you guys claiming a scientific conspiracy of massive proportions that the project to detect and observe gravity waves LIGO uses a complex and comprehensive system of vibration isolation (they say is) required to isolate and stabilize the optics and other critical parts of the experiment from extremely low frequency vibration? No. We spent little time analyzing LIGO as we are in the music, sound and audio industries where this multimillion dollar experiment has no bearing on our business and - no sound. However, even LIGO requires mechanical grounding supports for function as a non-isolation resonance energy transfer support system is used to champion their isolation techniques in a 'real world application'. Everyone and his brother knows shape is an important aspect of isolation and energy control. That is why the Super DH (Diamond Hardness) Cone is superior in performance to the Jumbo DH cone which is the same basic size but slightly different shape. We’ve known that for more than 20 years, probably more than 25 years. First, we are not claiming to be the originator of variable shapes. Our research is taking us towards what is “not” totally understood regarding shapes related to vibration, interfering energy, resonance transfer and product function. Secondly, hardness has very little to do with our technology where damping factors and mass related to material science combined with mechanical grounding techniques are more the focus. My question for you is; what does hardness have to do with attack, sustain and decay qualities related to sound reproduction equipment or musical instruments? We find that the "harder is better" approach to materials related to musical applications has drawbacks. The harder materials generally elevates pitch and narrows frequency range when applied to sound reproduction equipment, musical instruments and fails miserably when combined with a Sistrum geometry. Robert |
Regards to the dated Pioneer receiver: MG took his time and converted this amp into a variable music machine that now can easily rival the very best of the best. @jf47t, Please provide a list of what equipment you believe to be the best of the best. While at Axpona (this year) I listened to a pair of mono-blocks in two totally different environments designed by Rick Schultz of High Fidelity Cables and assembled by Peter Israelson. Peter is a member of Star Sound and has walked in your shoes prior to me. He is one of the most gifted and knowledgeable people I met in HEA and just think, MG “left him go” too ⌣. This amplifier design uses Magnetic Conduction Technology where magnets and nickel tubing are used to pass signal and not copper wire (MCT is protected by US patents). These two gents are very good friends of mine as we share technologies and knowledge for the advancement of sound and audio. Bias aside, I consider this amplifier design a must hear and a strong contender for that ‘best of the best’ from my highly opinionated and extremely limited list of finest sounding electronics. Sorry to state j47t, but the materials used to build the Pioneer chassis and chassis mass disqualifies the capability of holding a proverbial sonic candle in comparison to this design. Obviously these amplifiers are expensive to own. In fact, they enter the MG world where not only is HEA dead but so are large chassis electronics - dead. There were three pair sold since their debut in January of this year which puts MG’s claims to question. If the reports and observations provided by gulpson concerning the Pioneer power conductors sticking in the AC outlet without a surrounding casing are correct and the public is permitted into the building; makes for a great case in search of a building inspector, fire marshal and if there is ever an accident of any kind, a good attorney. Cancels the insurance policy too! There is the removing of the chassis cover again and we are awaiting an answer as to how that works in relationship with tuning techniques as previously requested? You create a lot of wind… but zero answers to any questions on technical and/or mechanical function. Robert |
jf47t, I have no friends here, just for the record, and it is great that people went to Tuneland and enjoy it. Maybe some other threads there are more into "walking", but that one with pictures is not. In fact, posts there are very strange, to say the least. Even approaching it with very open mind, it does read like nothing more than self-praising form of poetry. People have different styles of writing and that is fine, but content is missing on that thread. Pictures are valuable, though, despite them being only teasers.
glupson says Please Please don’t visit TuneLand and then he asks a direct question of TuneLand LOL has changed the meaning of what I wrote and which was... Please do not direct people from here to Tuneland Nice try, but still a feeble attempt to tune it your way. I did go to Tuneland and I will probably observe it some more. I will also recommend it to other people I know who may find it interesting, even if it may be just for their amusement. What I meant was that you do not advertise it that strongly to the people on this thread as, no matter how hard you try to explain that some have migrated there, the posters here seem to be much more exact and their presence on Tuneland would dilute Tuneland itself. In short, just as what I recommended to you after your initial posts about Michael Green, you may not want to work too hard. It becomes grotesque. You have improved since then and you might have noticed that nobody is ridiculing your way of talking about Michael anymore. I understand that public relations may not be your strongest quality so I thought I might try to help. Take it or leave it. Thank you will suffice. As far as my questions about things I saw on Tuneland go, they were a pure curiosity as it all seems way out of ordinary. They may not have an answer (orange vs. white outlet, wires directly stuck in the outlet, modifications to the receiver, maybe something else that I forgot), but they remain questions. If you look at two or three of geoffkait's posts above, he did bring something valuable to this thread. We may agree or disagree with it in the end, but there are statements that include how, why, what, etc. If anyone responds to them with contra-argument, it will be called a discussion. LOL-ing brings nothing but a shrug of the shoulders aimed at the LOL-er.. |
theaudiotweak Was the nail made of a steel alloy or something more musically satisfying like a brass screw. Was the screw head then painted over and filled in with Total Contact. My choice. Tom >>>>Not sure I go along with your detective work. Brass is rather low on my list of preferred materials for audio applications. Notice the correlation of preferrability to hardness. from best to worst, Diamonds NASA grade diamond hardness ceramics Tempered High Carbon steel Aluminum Carbon Fiber Brass This is not to say other materials can be very good when used as platforms, Top plates for isolation stands, that sort of thing, but the key characteristic is usually hardness. Hardness on the Moh scale of hardness. So, this is where we kind of agree, since very hard materials allow the energy to escape the bounds of the system, especially in isolation systems. What I propose is a comprehensive approach using BOTH energy management employing damping plus hard materials along with vibration isolation. For example the circuit boards must be isolated from the transformer and the CD transport must be damped. Just to name two. The transformer can also be removed and relocated elesewhere which is what I think MG does sometimes. This comprehensive plan of attack will ALWAYS produce the very best results. And doesn’t require constant attention and Tuning. |
theaudiotweak We also have a resulting tuning method though when implemented, it is stasis by material, shape and understanding of energy flow and direction. The only change that may occurr is when we increase our understanding of shaped materials and offer them to the public to install if they wish. Tom >>>>So, let me get this straight. You guys apparently have a mission statement and standard operating procedure to let the vibrations flow freely, right? And this mission statement and SOP obviously precludes the use of vibration isolation, right? In fact, if I can be so bold, you guys actually believe that vibration isolation is not (rpt not) possible, correct me if I’m wrong. So, are you guys claiming a scientific conspiracy of massive proportions that the project to detect and observe gravity waves LIGO uses a complex and comprehensive system of vibration isolation (they say is) required to isolate and stabilize the optics and other critical parts of the experiment from extremely low frequency vibration? If so, surely you jest. 😀 in fact it was the development of advanced vibration isolation systems that finally led to the observation of gravity waves from an ancient merger of black holes a couple of years ago. Everyone and his brother knows shape is an important aspect of isolation and energy control. That is why the Super DH (Diamond Hardness) Cone is superior in performance to the Jumbo DH cone which is the same basic size but slightly different shape. We’ve known that for more than 20 years, probably more than 25 years. Is this thread now suddenly the Clash of the Tuning titans? |
"jf47t, glupson says Please Please don’t visit TuneLand and then he asks a direct question of TuneLand LOL It’s ok glupson no one is going to torture you there LOL. Fact is many of your friends from here have already made the move and more have emailed. Some have been reading as much as they can finding themselves in a hobby inside of this basic hobby. |
"@jf47t LOL, now that was good lol "jf47t, LOL |
jf47t, By the way, how is that Pioneer receiver plugged in the wall? The pictures are a little unclear, but it looks as if it is just wires stuck in the outlet. Is there some trick to that? Lower outlet, the one receiver appears to be plugged in, is orange while upper is white. What is the story with different colors? |
jf47t, The sad fact is that I informed people what receiver is in question before you did. I guess I woke up first. I should not mention those modifications that people were also asking about. There may not be trolls on Tuneland for more than one reason. Here, whoever you call trolls, found it engaging. Could it be that on Tuneland, they cannot find anything as engaging? I have always praised Michael Green for starting this thread. It takes some talent/skill/feel/whatever else to do something so inflammatory. Now, when we are talking about Tuneland, I went only through one thread (the one with pictures of the room and Pioneer receiver). Maybe other threads are different, but that one had no deep discussion I could find. There were lots of deep words and almost-philosophical monologues, but not much in a way of healthy discussion. Some will like it. It could be made into a lecture. |
jf47t, Please do not direct people from here to Tuneland. It is not nice. Tuneland obviously has different clientele. Crowd here is way more analytical and more into "walking". Posts on Tuneland are long winding poetry (by Michael Green), call it "talking", and responses from other "tunees" read as if they are staged/fake. You do not want guys from this thread there. They would have a field day. It is better that everyone stays in her/his own little yard. Michael Green can come back here from time to time, he is much better here than there. |
"I may be a troll, or I may not, as that term seems to be applied very liberally. I do not understand why we would be denied pictures of something described in details on this thread, but so be it. However, given that Pioneer receiver was mentioned, too and at least three people showed interest in learning about it, it should not take much to mention what was done to it and what model it is." Geoff you need to wake glupson up lol glupson lol can I pick on you a second? Have you even gone up to visit TuneLand? The Pioneer SX4300 is on full display there along with MG’s walk through the system he just did for me. Quite frankly I wouldn’t be surprised to find that a hundred or so people have scored on MG’s recommended tuning components. That’s probably being very conservative. On the other question you pose about TuneLand again wake up. Internet forums interact and interchange info non-stop. TuneLand sends readers here and Audiogon sends readers there. Glupson that is how the internet works. It wasn’t designed to be a bunch of independent islands but more millions of boats and ships traveling to and from those islands. Each one of those islands have a different theme style and info exchange. For example the Audiogon forum is not big on words and pictures together on threads whereas TuneLand is all about pics & words. Audiogon has a marketplace system TuneLand doesn’t. Everyone of these audio forums is like visiting for vacation as well one or two becomes home base. glupson TuneLand doesn’t have to fend off internet trolls because TuneLand would never have internet trolls it’s not that kind of forum. An internet troll would look pretty stupid and out of place on TuneLand. PS just saw your post above |
In case anyone is interested, Pioneer receiver in question is sx4300. Yes, I did go to Tuneland to see. Click-bait, or not. From what can be seen on the picture, it is an older receiver with cover removed. No other signs of modification can be seen on those pictures as they are not showing inside clearly. There is also an older Magnavox DVD player nearby and that one also seems to have cover removed. I have not noticed any electrocuted cats. In fact, it was informative to go to Tuneland for those pictures as now I learned how that room looks like. It irresistibly reminds me of sauna. Lots of light-colored wood. On the other hand, I would strongly recommend that those who find Michael Green's approach on this thread not to their liking or standards not go there. For the benefit of Tuneland and for the benefit of people on this thread who may get ballistic reading it. I read a few posts, they are long, and I have to say that Michael Green there does not appear as the one here. I prefer this one here, though. |
@jf47t You seem to be trying too hard. I suggest taking it slowly, conducting a self-assessment, identifying the triggers for your sensitivity (i.e., somebody suggests MG is not walking or Robert's posts refuting MG's version of history), exploring your emotions through journaling (maybe start a blog on TuneLand), letting go of the little things, maintaining a positive outlook. Happy walking... |
Hi Prof I believe Michael serves his purpose best by pointing readers to where the real Q & A’s are. Once this thread got past the first few pages it turned into not much more than examples proving the OP to be accurate. I’ve come up to give examples of the listening I’ve been doing meanwhile Michael has been posting on some engaging threads on TuneLand that get into much more depth which obviously attracts MG over a circle of who is a troll and who isn’t. Michael is always very busy "walking" as anyone can see who wishes to on MG’s facebook or forum or by visiting. Might I suggest this prof, if you look at TuneLand and don’t see any posts deleted because of internet trolling wouldn’t it be fair to conclude that MG has no interest in internet trolling. If Michael Green was interested in threads that do trolling why does he not have this behavior on his forum? Prof the characterizations being made here about Michael are easy to put to the test by looking at his forum to see if internet trolling is a pattern there. Obviously it is not. MG engages in deep audiophile discussions on TuneLand full of pictures and solid interacting. So Prof the mods here have been excellent at spotting the trolls and limiting their forum destructive patterns. Your painting MG as a troll or Audiopoints attempts at....whatever only has to go as far as to look at TuneLand for the reality of what Michael Green Audio does and what Michael Green the person does has done and is doing. Words pictures drawings tests reviews real time referencing plus others’ experiences all over the world past and present. You guys have been trying to go up against one of the most documented personas in the history of HEA. You can try but all your really doing is making MG’s presence known even more. I believe the Mods in other words are more hip to what is going on than you give them credit for. |
jf47t, I may be a troll, or I may not, as that term seems to be applied very liberally. I do not understand why we would be denied pictures of something described in details on this thread, but so be it. However, given that Pioneer receiver was mentioned, too and at least three people showed interest in learning about it, it should not take much to mention what was done to it and what model it is. Everyone pushes their ideas on Audiogon forums and some subtly, or less subtly, even advertise their products. That may, if not exaggerated, be helpful to participants as they learn about what is mentioned. However, using a thread on one website to steer people to another website could be described as poaching. It may not be illegal, but is surely not a gentlemanly activity. Not to mention, asking participants from this particular thread to migrate to Tuneland seems self-destructive. They have had very firm and logical questions that would shake much stronger theoreticians than those who provided answers here. Do you really want a sanctuary like Tuneland to become a sad sight defending itself only by "they are all trolls, they are all trolls"? Most of the people on this thread have nothing against very existence of Tuneland and, from what it seems, they have shown quite a courtesy not to infiltrate there. |
jf47t, 1. If you are honest. And 2. If the techniques you and MG espouse are sound. Then nothing should concern as being a "trap." If you have answers, you just give the answers. One only worries about a "trap" if one has something to hide, or if you aren’t confident in what you are presenting. Note when MG asked me a question about capacitors, even though it was clearly a disingenuous set up to try to find a way to dismiss me, I immediately answered. No problem. There’s no "trap" if you just answer something honestly to your ability. And of course, MG did indeed just go on to keep ignoring my questions, even after I answered his. |