My approach to synergy is its bunk. Do yourself a favor, a great big favor that will pay dividends throughout your whole audio career, and give the concept of synergy some serious thought. Then banish it from your lexicon forever.
The whole idea of synergy is no component is perfect, they all are bad in some ways, but with synergy something that is bad in one way can be combined with something bad in a complimentary way, and through the magic of synergy the total result will be good.
That’s it, right? I’m not making anything up. You’re supposed to cover up the flaws in one thing with flaws from another. Doesn’t sound so flattering when you put it that way. But that’s what you’re doing: looking for band-aids. My system is rolled off on top, I’ll get synergy with those hyped up Nordost whatever’s. Whatever.
What I do instead is recognize the fact no component is perfect. They all have their flaws. I listen and evaluate and find the ones with the balance of flaws I am best able to live with. And then I live with them.
Well technically I keep working at getting the most out of them. But whatever. The point is I do not ever go looking for something all screwed up one way just to fix something known to be screwed up in another. Because the one thing I do know for certain, this is a recipe for disaster. You will never be happy. And every time you try and upgrade something, now you’re caught on this hamster cage asking the same questions we see around here every single day- what amp (pre-amp, cartridge, cable, fill in the blank) goes with this speaker (power cord, conditioner, DAC, fill in the freaking blank)?
This is how I have been doing this 30 years and almost always really happy with everything and keep my components usually around ten years but sometimes 15 or more. Where if I went for the siren song of synergy I’d be on the same hamster wheel as everyone else asking what this should I get to go with that.
There. If this was a stake I would drive it right through the heart of synergy. Cut its head off. Head coffin. Still, watch the lifeless zombie plod on..... |
Gee Chuck, I was just asking what combinations of components that people have put together that sound good. I'm not sure what to say?
How's the Moabs maybe? |
When building a system and choosing equipment there are synergies related to many factors such as your price range, your room size, decor that is acceptable in your household, musical listening preferences, ease of operation (I.e., tubes vs. SS or whether to include a TT or go solely with digital), and more. I believe you are speaking primarily about synergy related to equipment matching. Synergy between your gear is important because if you go down the wrong road with the wrong gear then no amount of tweaking or gear-matching will get you over the finish line. I believe that Is the point made by @millercarbon below. My first “high-end” speakers were purchased based on great reviews but were totally wrong for my listening preferences so I wasted too much time and money trying to make them work.What has worked for me is matching each piece of gear to my musical and listening preferences, which include rich tonality and impactful dynamics for primarily rock, blues and lesser amounts of soul and jazz. The souped up SMc monos were the last step in providing sufficient power for the Aerial speakers come to life and provide the dynamics I am looking for across the entire frequency spectrum. The digital front end is my attempt to create a coherent sound without digital sounding artifacts by using a NOS DAC, optical decoupling of the Ethernet input, and an I2S connection to the DAC instead of USB. Even though I like the volume control directly from the DAC, I run the output through a high end buffer to maintain the level of body and impact I enjoy. It all works well together for me.
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Well then, sorry. Its just when I see "Synergy Matching" and "please share your component matching (speakers, amps, DACs) that you have finally attained that "Perfect Synergy/Sound" I figure its a guy looking for help with what I know to be a misleading concept and one that people have wasted untold time and money on. I mean I like to answer questions and help as best I can. But there's so many of these "what speaker goes with this amp" type questions I hardly ever even bother any more. Now the question really is "what combinations of components that people have put together that sound good" and so my answer changes to https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
My mistake, I should have worded my title caption differently then.
Maybe I'll start a new thread to do so?
Thanks for the link thread Chuck. I really want to know how that Raven is going to light up those Tektons.
Mitch2 kind of has the idea. Maybe you could elaborate more on the particulars of your system. I'm sorry you went through the speaker hassle. I think sharing those experiences along with listing your equipment and how it all pulls together will be very helpful, not just to me but the community as a whole.
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Actually there are components w design synergy, for example time, phase and low negative global feedback, but that is beyond Chuck... his idea of synergy is flaw driven vs positive attributes being reinforcing.... kinda like not really caring about the midrange being wired out of phase and buying a low TIM amp
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I've got a whole thread on the Moabs. Unfortunately like most threads here the people with nothing to add just love to add nothing and so you have to skip past the majority of posts to get to the ones worth reading. Even so there's a lot in there.
Along the way the subject came up how do you choose components without being able to audition? Isn't that necessary? Its helpful, sure, and in the beginning more or less required. But if you put in the time and effort listening to a lot of stuff, and reading and comparing what you've heard to what you've read, well then after a while its not nearly so necessary.
Its been about a dozen years now since I heard anything before buying, and in that time I bought the Melody integrated, Conqueror tone arm, Koetsu Black Goldline cartridge, Herron VTPH2A phono stage, Synergistic CTS speaker cables, and Atmosphere IC, Blue and Orange fuses, PHT, ECT, HFT, Dayton sub amp and DBA, and finally Moab speakers. Oh and PPT TC, eCards, Mats, and more.
Every single one of these was selected the exact same way. First I figure out what it is that I want. In the past it was all those other things. Now its just the amp. So I know to pay attention for anything and everything about amps. In particular tube integrateds, since I know them to be the best value for money.
Then I search around for everything I can find, but really only paying attention to what people who actually heard them first hand. Even then I really only pay attention to how they describe the sound. Nothing else matters to me. Only how it sounds. Like with the Moabs, there were a lot of comments about them needing or really coming alive with high power SS amps. With 98dB speakers? How can this be? Turns out its not. Its crap. Mine come plenty alive with 50 tube watts. Plenty. Once again it pays to ignore everything but how people say it sounds.
So in every case, at least a dozen components over a dozen years, every single one of them when I got it home actually sounded just as expected from all the comments. Every single one. Even though not a one of those people making the comments was using the component with any of my components.
If ever there was proof synergy or system matching or whatever you want to call it is a waste of time, this is it. What's funny is not that people keep pushing it, but that the other huge waste of time- measurements- is another one they all push. The only measurements I bother with are speaker sensitivity and phono cartridge output. Even then they are only used as a filter. Speakers less than 90 dB are out. Ditto carts less than .4mV. There are too many easy to drive examples to be worth the trouble.
I can go into details as much as you want but really its the general principles such as these that matter. Because there's a million different ways to build a great system. I've seen them all over the map yet still sound really good. For every principle that seems iron clad there's some guy totally getting away with flaunting it. Probably because so much of this stuff just doesn't work at all the way people think.
My system is pretty well described on my system page. I get stuff for testing that is not yet on the market, can't talk about that. And I take stuff apart and can't tell people about it because it gets into the valuable proprietary information someone is making their living with. Anything outside those two areas though I am happy to help. |
But because you asked:
Basis, Brinkmann, Lyra, Triplaner, HRS, VTL, Audioquest, ARC, Aesthetix, Vandersteen
go back review Munich best of show, etc... plenty of repeat positive attribute synergy.
I will let others with lots of experience vs. narrow minded ego weigh in.
Best to you
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Nice post Chuck. I never understood that dirty word either. Synergy seems to be more appliplical to recordings than equipment.
I mean the first one, not the Moab infomercial. |
Actually there is a ton of synergy in the studio.... start reading the liner notes on microphone and microphone preamp choices....
better yet get a couple of decent microphones, etc and educate your own ear... |
Mhdt Constantine DAC—>Audio Research sp16 Pre-amp -> BelCanto ref1000m amps -> Ohm Walsh F5 speakers.
Also Denon DL103R cart on Linn Axis table to Electrocompaniet step up transformer as alternate source. |
90 db of output how ? Pretty much any pistonic driver ( the output is in phase to the input ) are less than 90db
just run your stereo thru a couple of Ampeg cabinets...
flavor chasers vs.advancing the art and science of audio... welcome to Baskin Robbins... |
More synergy:
Grado, Linn, ARC, Maggie Tympani - I first heard this in a large 30’x60’ townhouse room w wood floors, tons of plants, irregular stamped ceilings, rugs, overstuffed furnishings, books, etc ( like a real living space ), of Pasquale Grado’s apartment.... a real authentic grand piano image, tone and attack.., yes, that Grado |
More synergy: Levinson, Quad , Hartley, Decca, SOTA Sapphire, Dynavector Ruby, Souther Linear tracker, in a great room |
More synergy: Apogee Stage on Sound Anchors, Threshold, MX-110Z, Grado on a Basis TT |
Wadia, CJ, Musical Fidelity AMG-100, Kubala wires into the ( if ya have the room ) sublime MBL-101
try to pick an opinion from somebody who might have heard world class gear And set it up vs. just read about it..,, |
One of my favorites, yet very difficult to get right...Or close to right...
oracle, Koetsu, CJ Premier 3 and 1, Infinity RS
Bunch of light weight mids and tweeters in 1985, the no clue about audio history ( happily ignorant ) crowd thinks somebody just invented this..,
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Excellent guys, keep ’em coming! |
@high-amp Maybe you could elaborate more on the particulars of your system. The Alon VMkIII speakers I hinted about above (which Carl M helped me upgrade to Circe) are known for their spatial presentation and are much better suited to tubed power amps IMO. However, they also need power to come alive so I provided the power but in the form of solid state amplifiers, which never achieved the magic I wanted in my system. If there is a lesson here, IMO it is to get your speakers and amplifier(s) right first. Front ends have changed the most over the past 20 years so to me those seem easier to change and tweak. If the room is good, and you have components and speakers that sound good to you, then cables and tweaks are sort of the icing on the cake, again IMO. Don’t expect cables or tweaks to “totally transform” the sound of your system - for example, they cannot change the basic characteristic sound of your speakers. Dealers are sort of a polarity. On one hand, you can actually hear the stuff before buying but on the other hand you generally hear what their shop sells and what brings them good margins. I have friends who are dealers but I haven’t set foot in a stereo shop in 15 years because I refuse to waste their time. However, I did select my first upper end speakers that I really enjoyed, ADS L810s, by listening at several dealer show rooms but times were different then. I stupidly sold the L810s for much less than I should have but later decided to find out what the designer (Michael Kelly) had been up to. Of course, he owns/runs Aerial Acoustics so I sold the Alons and bought a pair of Aerial 9s. I knew I was on the right track but I sort of got sidetracked on the amplifier side with a series of Class A amplifiers (i.e., Lamm and Clayton) that, while they sounded great on a lot of music, didn’t quite drive my core rock/blues music as it needed to be driven. I owned Clayton M300s twice and they absolutely nailed the tone and dimensionality (so real sounding on so much music!) plus they had enough power (300 wpc), but couldn’t quite achieve the drive and dynamics that are important to me. That really stood out one holiday when a relative said, put on some rock and “let’er rip.” Unfortunately, it just didn’t rip. I shortly thereafter called Steve McCormack and said, uh, you know that amplifier project you have been trying to talk me into......Steve and Patrick at SMc Audio did a stellar job for me and the result has been an excellent blend of power, tone, and dimensionality that easily handles a wide range of music. I think they are in the range of 600-700 wpc and the Aerials put all that power to good use. Another thing that worked well for me was upgrading the Aerial 9s to a pair of Aerial LR5’s, which Mike Kelly says “are about as good as it gets from 40hz up.” I added two SW12 subs to fill in below 40hz and the result with the SMc amps is exactly what I was trying to achieve. I am still tweaking around with springs, decoupling speakers, and some other stuff but, as I said above, those things are mostly icing on the cake, which may or may not improve things but will not change the basic character of what I hear. I hope this system discussion has provided the type of insight you were looking for. |
Great stuff mitch, tomic, fuzz & mc
My last system consisted of a Coda CSiB integrated V1, Martin Logan Spires, Wyred 4 Sound DAC 2V2 SE, running a ROON Nucleus as a server.
Had to sell it off as both the wife and I were out of work for 4 months due to CV-19. Hopefully, looking to rebuild and get somewhere close to where I was (maybe even better!) so was looking to the community for good solid advice on what has (and was has not) worked out for them.
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Hegel, SME, Shunyata Research, Wilson... works very nicely. |
@millercarbon
well said. truly words of wisom
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Hey Chuck, I took your advice and started a new thread dropping the term "Synergy". Please see:
"What Combinations of Components Have You Put Together That Sound Good?"
Under the Best-of" topic.
This was supposed to be a fun and informative thread, hopefully, the new thread will catch on.
Thanks to all who contributed here, all comments duly noted & much appreciated, |
