funny this went on so long, dan and albert already said it. |
Anyone intersted in suspending their turntable can take a look at what I did. It worked for me, I believe it's better than most tt i have heard but then i am biased, sorry its my baby. |
02-19-08: Dan_ed said:
"Maybe we should start a new thread. Seems like we're getting farther and farther away from Amfibius' topic."
Yes, but it's good to consider placement of the TT relative to the speakers, so I don't think that we hijacked.
I'd be happy to join a new thread if you'd like to explore this further. I'd be curious to hear of others' experiences in this arena. I've probably exhausted all I've got to say, but I could Copy and Paste.
Dave |
Maybe we should start a new thread. Seems like we're getting farther and farther away from Amfibius' topic.
I'm really not setup to do this test. No headphones, no SACD or DVD-A. |
02-19-08: Dan_ed said:
"Dcstep, that's a test I can trust. I wonder if I can re-create this with my CDP and a recording that I have in both formats."
Taking into account that the CD likely has limits as compared to the LP version, you might switch back and forth at 100dB or so. Another test might be to listen on high quality headphones at a fairly loud level (say 90dB or so) and then turn on the speakers at 100+dB and see if you can hear a degradation.
The beauty of recording is that you can listen to your results on headphones so that the small differences are more apparent.
Oh, I just thought, if you've got an SACD or DVD-A of one of your LPs, that'd be a much better test than a CD. I'm just afraid that the congestion of the CD will mask the difference, because most LPs start out ahead of their CD versions. My experience with SACD and DVD-A however has been very positive.
Dave |
Dan ed,
you'll have to be sure that it was mastered by the same company. I've done the vinyl vs. CD test numerous times for myself and others using audiophile recordings such as those from Audioquest where the recording itself is reliably good and the mastering is consistent between the two formats. This test won't give all the information that Dcstep got but it should tell you a lot. |
02-19-08: Piedpiper said:
"nice test Dcstep! Have you figured out a way to burn SACDs from your Korg?"
No, SACD is a controlled format; however, DVD-A has equivalent resolution and that works.
I have big ambitions for my Korg, but they're unrealized so far. The DAC is exceptional, but the analog inputs and outputs are a little noisy. You can listen through the noise, but I'd rather not. I thought I had a modder lined up to upgrade the input and outputs and add some internal shielding, but he's gotten tied up with other projects.
If I can find somebody to do the mods, then I'd like to do a bunch of comparisons and make those available to people on this forum and clubs and just cover the postage. The resolution is so incredible that you can actually successfully record the different in interconnects, for instance. As a club project, it'd be very interesting to record a bunch of cartridges, arms, etc., etc.
Any modder want to fix up my Korg??? Ric Schultz was who I had in mind. I may just wait him out, but I'd also like to start some projects.
Dave |
Dcstep, that's a test I can trust. I wonder if I can re-create this with my CDP and a recording that I have in both formats. |
nice test Dcstep! Have you figured out a way to burn SACDs from your Korg? |
Oh, you can hear it easily. I isolate my TT in a 100+lb armoire, loaded with probably 50 pounds of CD and spare cables and wires in the bottom and my control amp, universal player and TT in the top. All-in we may be talking about 200 lbs.
I've got a Korg MR1000 hard drive recorder that records in 1-bit DSD at 5.6MHz, twice SACD resolution. For the best recording quality I go straight from the phono preamp into the Korg with no speakers. When I record the same thing with doors open and the speakers on I get a less clear recording. With the doors closed and the speakers on the recording is almost as good as with no speakers.
The distortion presents itself as slight smearing or obscuring of detail. There's no outright mistracking. I haven't tried it at really high levels, merely the levels that I'd listen to music at (75 to 100dB at my listening position, with averages in the mid 80dB range).
My armoire and TT is 6 inches from the left speaker and about 18" from the right speaker, so there's a lot of energy right around the TT. After my little experiement I keep the armoire doors closed for all listening session and all recording is monitored with headphones. (I'm archiving my D2D recordings to DSD.
I've got 10" concrete floor and ceiling, so room-borne vibrations are not a big issue for me. Also, the mass of that armoire and all the stuff in it gives my turntable a nice headstart.
The demonstration is easy to replicate if you've got a high quality recorder and a way to isolate your TT from airborne sound waves. (Maybe move it outside the room door). The beauty of the recording is that you can set the level and then move things around quite a bit between test recordings, but when you play back you go very quickly from A to B to C, making it easy to hear the differeces.
Dave |
That's been in the back of my mind as well. For the moment, forget about vibrations that may be transfered through the stand or table. Short of playing records in a vacuum, I don't see how we get away from airborne vibrations no matter what we chose to put under our tables. But it seems to me that these are much less deleterious than the vibrations and resonances within the cartridge body and tonearm due to the physical vibrations imparted by the gyrations of the stylus. These are the real culprits to me. I've never been able to get a stylus to mistrack because of sound pressure, not that I've really tried beyond just cranking the volume to rock out. Maybe I've missed it, but I don't recall hearing of anyone ever reporting that happening either. Now I think anyone who has spent time in the analog world has experienced LF feedback. But that's not what I'm talking about here and I doubt that is an issue with several hundred pounds of mass involved. |
Dan_ed I am not thinking of DIY'ing my own turntable, I was thinking of DIY'ing my own turntable TABLE ... i.e, something to put the turntable on! As you can tell from my initial question, I know bugger all about designing turntables. I would rather pay someone who knows what they are doing :)
The learning curve I have in front of me is pretty steep, and i'm at the bottom of the curve :( Have been googling up as much information as I can find.
Piedpiper that was what we suspected when we did the comparison, because my table/arm combo was much cheaper than his. Unfortunately we did not repeat the shootout with a cartridge swap. |
02-18-08: Dan_ed said:
"Mass, yes. Isolation, not so much."
Different correct answers to the same physics question.
My question is, what happens if you deaden structure-born resonance, but what about airborne vibrations? The arm and cartridge, unless islotate, are subject to performance degradation if not protected (isolated).
Dave |
Ah, I get it. Isolation under components like power supplies. Yeah, that works. At least I get good results with the roller blocks. I'm using Stillpoints under my table as a temporary stop gap. The granite in direct contact with my table doesn't work so well due to the ringing of the stone. But I'm doing so at the expense of a slight loss in attack and some bass punch. |
Mass, yes. Isolation, not so much. |
Congrats on your suspension modification. I don't see the need for it, but if it makes you happy you can be the High Priest of the Isolation sect. |
Amfibius,
your impressions of the SOTA Vs. VPI sound like the characterstics of those two cartridges. |
02-18-08: Dan_ed said:
"From Sumiko's webpage
Massive 12lb. (5.4kg) sandwich construction acrylic platter virtually eliminated unwanted resonances.
I can see why you need some help with dampening. Dgarretson's VPI runs around 60-70 lbs. Maybe that's a little better, but I see a common theme with those who keep demanding that everybody who doesn't use complete isolation is missing out. For comparison, my table and stand together are well over 300 lbs. Hey, if it works for you."
What's Sumiko got to do with it? His budget is Aus$20,000. I'm sure there's a different SME distributor in Aus, if that's what you were looking at.
If isolation and mass isn't important then why do you have a 240 lb stand???
Nobody said one size fits all except you. I'm saying to allow for a stand or isolation base in the budget. He's talking about a sandpit now, so I think he understands the issue.
Dave |
The springs I'm using are rated 40-60lb. each & six springs are used to support a 100lb TT plus a 200lb. sandbox. |
Amfibius, I should have mentioned in my post that I'm keeping in mind the rest of your system. Those Violons deserve to be feed with a really good analog source. I don't want to totally dismiss the importance of stand, etc., but the idea is that you can always improve the sound with additions and tweaks if you start with a great component.
If you get the urge to DIY a table I would suggest contacting Teres for the bearing and a perhaps a platter because I think Chris Brady still sells these ala-carte.
Also, if you consider a good DC motor you can either use a wall-wart or better yet a 12 volt batter supply to drive it. Here again, ask Teres. Maybe they still have some left over prior to the rim drive switch.
Yes, RCM is record cleaning machine. I built one several years ago and still use it today. It's manually powered but I'd put it up against anything as long as we don't count convenience and noise. |
Nrchy I did love my Sota turntable and was surprised when it beat my friend's VPI HW-19 with Triplanar arm when we did a head to head shootout. I was using a Denon DL-304 cart, he was using a Sumiko BPS cart. It sounded fuller and more lifelike, VPI thinner and more analytical. But I think I would like to get something a bit different this time.
DCstep, I have been keeping an eye out for the T/T's on sale here, but the problem is that nearly all of them are in the USA. That means - 110V (240V over here), and expensive shipping. Both problems are not insurmountable, I could get a step-down transformer, but why complicate things when I don't have to.
Also - I know someone who can weld steel and has made his own T/T table. It's a massive thing, 75kg, and inert. I will probably ask him to make one for me. In the past, I DIY'ed my own sandpit and it helped tremendously. I might DIY another sandpit for this new T/T. We will see.
Dan_Ed precisely what I was thinking. If I am going to skimp anywhere in the short term, it would be with the cartridge and phono cable. Such things are easy to replace and I won't mind having a spare Denon cartridge lying around. BTW, RCM = record cleaning machine? |
From Sumiko's webpage Massive 12lb. (5.4kg) sandwich construction acrylic platter virtually eliminated unwanted resonances. I can see why you need some help with dampening. Dgarretson's VPI runs around 60-70 lbs. Maybe that's a little better, but I see a common theme with those who keep demanding that everybody who doesn't use complete isolation is missing out. For comparison, my table and stand together are well over 300 lbs. Hey, if it works for you. If I've learned anything in this hobby it's that one size doesn't fit all. |
02-18-08: Dan_ed said:
"Here's my .02. Get the best table, arm and phono stage you can for now. You can always add a better platform and cartridge latter. If you're handy you can easily build a decent RCM for less than $100."
I have to disagree strongly with Dan_ed on this one. Even without springy floors, I believe that a good isolation platform adds an major measure of excellence for any table. The physics of adding stages of isolation is easy to demonstrate and hear, even without springy resonant floors.
Try the Disc Doctor manual record cleaning system before springing for a RCM. Like me, you may find the need for a RCM totally absent.
I think his budget of Aus$20,000 is a very substantial amount and it's reasonable to think that he can expect a complete system within that budget. I don't sense that he wants to do it in stages, but arrive with a VERY satisfactory setup quickly.
Dave |
Here's my .02. Get the best table, arm and phono stage you can for now. You can always add a better platform and cartridge latter. If you're handy you can easily build a decent RCM for less than $100.
Maybe break it down to 14K for table and phono stage, 5K for an arm, and let the last 1K buy you a cartridge. I'm sure others will have opinions on this as well. |
Either design type will benefit greatly from a top drawer isolation device. You should plan a major hunk of your budget for such a device. Each level of isolation that you add raises the isolation at the cartridge pretty dramatically.
I can see this easily in my own system by rapping the shelf in my armoire with the stylus in a silent groove. I have to rap very hard to hear anything through the system. Next, when I wrap the isolation platform I can hear it more easily, but it's still highly muted. Finally, when I rap the plinth I hear it quite readily but the stylus still tracks.
If there's basement below you listening room, you might put in some extra support below the system and immediately around it. In a rental house, long ago, one 4X4 pole, stratically placed, did wonders.
Take your time, but we're really interested to hear what you finally do. This is a sizeable expenditure that warrant careful study.
Dave |
Keith I don't know what you thought of the Sapphire and if you'd go with a Sota product again, but to me they would be a good match for what you're trying to do. You seem to need a suspended table, so if you were to move up in the Sota line, you could get better sound, and a better platform for arm and cart. The reason I recommend the Sota though is if you get to the place where you no longer require a suspended table you can simply cancel the suspension with something like a Stillpoint bearing, or Symposium Rollerblock.
Have you been watching the TTs for sale here? I just sold my Cosmos, but there are good products for sale on a regular basis... and that will help with your 20kAUD budget.
O
o
. |
Rbatsch, your comment makes sense. Thank you.
Dan_ed, I have had a turntable before, but I sold it. It was a Sota Sapphire, with Sumiko FT-4 arm and Sumiko Blue Point Special cartridge. Nothing is left of my original T/T rig.
Sirspeedy I am familiar with both your friends because I know people like them :) |
Keith,two of my experienced friends approach the hobby differently.I was just at both of their homes this week........
Friend #1 spends,makes mistakes,than sells what he does not like.He has a great set-up,now,but has had errors along the way.He is almost in a constant state of considering new changes.
My friend Sid,has a different take,which he adheres to ADAMANTLY...he purchases nothing new,until he compares it to his current set-up!He spends the rest of his money on new music,for his incomparable collection.
Who do you think has spent the most time,and wasted more money on equipment?
More importantly,you don't have to guess who has a more "involving" set-up!!
Yes,I do understand your plight,but with big time expenses,there is always a seller willing to "be a good dealer"!!
Good luck. |
Amfibius, I don't know if you've said this before or not but have you had any experience with vinyl? |
Yeah, don't focus on the construction theory, just try to get somewhere that you can listen to a few in your price range and buy what strikes your fancy.
Dave |
The former is a Mk4 and the latter a 'Classic' and I'd have to say it as little to do with whether the table is suspended or not but how well is it designed and built. It's kind of like comparing front wheel to rear wheel drive. That said, since a suspended table is more complex in design and fabrication, for the same budget I'd buy a non suspended TT. It would only make sense that suspension is going to cost more, unless cheaply done....something I would avoid.
Sure the Oracle with SME V arm beats the WTT in dynamics, blackness and detail but then the rig costs about 3x more. |
Keith,
That budget warrants some travel,if necessary, to some of the best dealers in Asia. Plow through all the reviews that you can find. Stereophile and Absolute Sound have archived most of their reviews and there are several very good internet mags. I'd suggest rolling around in those for a week or two to see what tweaks your interest and then try to seek out dealers for the things of interest.
Also, if there are audiophile clubs in your large city you might visit one to see what everyone is using and perhaps hear for yoursel.
Dave |
Sirspeedy despite living in the second largest city in Australia, the local dealers who are supposed to represent the brands usually do not carry demonstration stock. I need something a bit more concrete than what the dealer says. I think you can understand where I am coming from :)
Rauliregas, I do like the warm and mellow sound - but my system has enough of that as it is and I do not want any more. In fact I have been trying to "cool down" the tonal balance a little bit by tube rolling. As for the rest of my system - it is probably nearly as good as it gets. Minus a few issues, it is more transparent than any other system I have heard. |
Dear Keith: +++++ " I want something which is transparent, detailed and dynamic with good extension high and low....."+++++
IMHO, one way or the other, those characteristics are almost what every one of us are looking ( between others ) and IMHO that depend on the whole system performance and not on the TT alone.
+++++ " Dynamics are most important, because I enjoy a punchy sound..."+++++
This is one critical characteristic that make a huge difference between live music and reproduced music!!! and again that " punchy " sound depend on what it is on the recording and the whole system performance.
+++++ " do not need or want anything that sounds warm, mellow, etc. because my system already sounds warm and mellow. At the same time it should not be too etched or analytical. " +++++
do you like that " warm mellow " sound?, you don't say it, because if you don't like it there are some answers that will be different if you like it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Keith,in all honesty I'd seek out a good dealer,who might be so inclined to give you a trial product.That is the ONLY way,other than conjecture,to evaluate something that might suit your tastes!
I am lucky to have a close friend who has an almost identical system as me.Fortunately(for me),he is obsessed with spending money on this hobby,so he is used as the proverbial guinea pig.-:)
You have a better shot with a "reliable dealer"! |
DCstep I only know what kind of sound I am after, but I don't know how to achieve it. I want something which is transparent, detailed and dynamic with good extension high and low. Dynamics are most important, because I enjoy a punchy sound. I do not need or want anything that sounds warm, mellow, etc. because my system already sounds warm and mellow. At the same time it should not be too etched or analytical. I listen to classical music and jazz, and I have been accumulating records without a turntable to play it on.
As for the budget - I forgot to mention that it has to include a record cleaning machine. I do not think that AUD$20k is that large a budget if it has to include all those things.
With respect to everyone, I am also wary of asking for equipment recommendations on internet forums because I will be inundated with suggestions with no idea how to evaluate them. I know that it's all good natured and helpful, but it can be confusing. I limit my questions to specific bite sized chunks that I can handle :) This thread has already told me that it does not matter if T/T's are suspended or not - it is the implementation that matters. Also, suspended designs or high mass designs may have an advantage if I have springy floorboards. This in itself is valuable information - at a stroke it eliminates a large number of turntables from contention.
Regards,
Keith |
Posts like these are the very reason I read this forum. Excellent job, Dgarretson! |
"The question of whether this transgresses the immaculate conception of an original designer is a matter for religion."
well put! |
Dan_ed, Admittedly, it is speculative to theorize concerning the impact of extreme LF seismic activity. However, though the effect of acoustic resonance & its harmonic content at frequencies above the fundamental LF tone is unpredictable, it is easy to observe anecdotally. A subwoofer or a stereo with good dynamics propagates strong vibrations at varying frequencies throughout the room: in the surface of racks, in the floors & window sashes, in the soft pillows of the couch, through one's foot, in the gut, etc. The TT platform, plinth and arm will all respond differently to this excitement. Tube microphonics is another common example. Whatever the merit of the knuckle-rap test, failure of this test evidences that the TT has not been isolated & suggests a probability that vibration at lesser amplitude is passing through the system. I'm panglossian enough to believe that it's better to pass than to fail this test. Its not too much trouble to devise a decoupling platform that passes the test, and in so doing one may observe an audible improvement in focus and smoothness of HF. I doubt the improvement would be meaningfully confirmed in a frequency response test. An accelerometer on the TT would probably better indicate whats happening.
I would posit that a sprung suspension is the best way to reliably dissipate vibration into benign LF mechanical energy. The mechanics of other more complex approaches involving constrained-layer damping are more complicated to execute reliably and with repeatable results in combination with the wide variety of rooms, platforms, racks & floor compositions in general use.
As one moves up the food chain to very expensive TTs (e.g. Rockport, Caliburn, Grand Prix), an integral platform and/or rack design becomes a holistic design element. My sense is that most standalone TTs are compromised partly by cost & partly in order to optimize performance independent of siting issues. With belt-drive TTs, there might also be trade-offs between the sometimes competing design goals of transient speed stability & resonance control. As remarked by one TT pro in these forums, even small amounts of compliance in a TT suspension (such as rubber footers under a motor) sacrifice speed stability by creating an unstable geometry between motor & platter.
A suspensionless TT on top of a decoupling platform is at least one way to separate variables that affect speed stability and resonance control, and to reconcile these two design goals. I was myself skeptical of the approach, but positive feedback from owners of unsprung tables like Raven and Scout TTs (who counter-intuitively found benefits even in combination with wall racks and concrete floors) confirmed my own results with a modded unsuspended VPI TNT. If one accepts that TT and platform/rack are a system, its not much of a stretch to justify tweaking individual design elements in each as to logically complement each other. The question of whether this transgresses the immaculate conception of an original designer is a matter for religion. |
Have you got any clues as to what you would like? You mention a substantial budget. What do you already have, if anything? What would you like to improve and what do you listen to regarding genre and quality of your pressings?
Dave |
OH, BOY! Now we get to spend $17K of someone else's money! While I ponder my version of a shopping list I'll throw out some more things that can be pondered while visiting the porcelain throne. I'm not intending to pick on Dgarretson here. I'm just trying to think out loud and see if I can resolve somethings to my benefit. The more I learn the more I know how much I don't know. If I'm taking too much of a turn from the topic of Amfibius's thread I'll be happy to take this discussion to a new one. regarding the merit of a non-suspended TT, but sited on a platform that provides a decoupling suspension. Adding a suspension to a non-suspended table? If this does improve the performance of any table, what does that say about that table's implementation? Flip that around to those who find that removing the suspension from a table in favor of fixed feet. Again, what does that say for the table's build or design? But then again, maybe it is the combination of the table and what it sits on. I have found that the material directly in contact with my table has a lot to do with the performance that I get from my analog system. Either way it seems to me that we still have to make our determinations about a table's setup and performance on a case by case basis since there are so many factors that affect what we get. Analog can definitely be a tweaker's dream or nightmare. [quote] If you can rap the rack with your knuckles and hear the sound through the speakers while the stylus rests in the record groove, then it's likely that the rack is acting as an antennae for LF vibration from earth or from AC transformers on the lower shelves or from acoustic waves from the speakers. [/qoute] I believe the natural frequency of the earth is around 6-8Hz. Well below the resonance of most arm/cart combinations. Don't think that's going to affect much in the audible range. However, I can see that if one lived on a busy city street or had a freeway right next door there perhaps may be some transfer of noise into the table. I can't see how rapping my knuckles, a force of several ounces or more per square inch, can indicate that sound waves can be influencing anything through my table above the noise floor of my analog system as a whole. I agree that it tells me the wood I built my rack from is relatively easily excited. Noise from other components on the same stand. That should be real easy to measure the difference. All one needs to do is measure the response through the speakers with the components in the stand and with the components not in the stand. Very easy to find out if the difference is above the noise floor or not. This iss assuming that the sensitivity of the measuring equipment is sufficient enough to record the difference. Even if the equipment is not, and more importantly, can your ears hear the difference? Gives me something to ponder. |
Hi Keith,
With that budget you can get the Raven AC together with the Australian Continuum Copperhead arm which quite frankly is astounding.
If you live in Sydney you are welcome to come to my place to hear the differences for yourself.
Regards
Halcro |
Rauliregas, I am budgeting about AUD$20k (US$17k) for the whole setup - T/T, arm, cartridge, phono stage, and stand. Should be enough to get me something decent, I think. |
The main reason why I enjoy Audiogon forum life(now that I realize there are "real" people on the other end of my computer screen)is it allows us to all give our own thoughts on every subject(obviously)....I am not about to be too stubborn to consider other viable thoughts,which surely have come up with this subject.
I might have my own way of viewing things "audio",but if I were too closed minded,I'd never have the kind of quality music now playing,in my room.
Most of "you" have definitely helped me realize there are legitimate alternate views,on this subject,as well as many other matters regarding "getting music" to sound like we'd like it to,in our homes.
Thanks for keeping me grounded!...Always much to ponder/think through,with my somewhat overly analytical "ways".
Best to all. |
Keith: I forgot, a critical TT choice factor is: how much is your budget?
regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear Keith: IMHO I think that more that ask for " suspended vs unsuspended " could be more important for the quality sound reproduction performance level another factors like: platter build material, speed accuracy and speed stability, isolation to prevent ( internal/external ) resonances/vibrations/distortions/noises/colorations, tonearm facilities, warranty/support over time, free trouble operation over time ( years ) to come, etc, etc.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
i can not compete with the technical discussions between the merits between the suspended versus non suspended models. But my experience with the michell gyrodec (suspended) versus Maplenoll ariadne (High mass nonsuspended) using the same cartridge (zyx airy3s), i preferred the sound from my maplenoll. Granted a lot of differences between the two tables and arm systems, but i found the maplenoll had a very black background and the bass response was far superior. My daughter is currently using my gyro and she loves it. I was very please with it during my tenure with the table. But i am sold on the high mass table. I have use the nonsuspended table on a second floor and will say it was more sensitive to floor vibrations than the gyro. |
Based on what I've been able to prove to my own satisfaction by tweaking a VPI belt-drive TT, I'm in agreement with Halcro regarding the merit of a non-suspended TT, but sited on a platform that provides a decoupling suspension.
An unsuspended TT with a standalone motor, combined with a belt made of non-compliant material such as thread or tape, should in most cases have superior speed stability relative to a suspended table with a soft rubber belt. The unsuspended design fixes the geometry between motor & platter. With a suspended TT, geometry & belt tension change constantly with variations in torque on the belt caused by modulation in stylus drag and plinth movement in the lateral plane-- resulting in variations in pitch.
Nonetheless, decoupling the TT from earth is still beneficial. If you can rap the rack with your knuckles and hear the sound through the speakers while the stylus rests in the record groove, then it's likely that the rack is acting as an antennae for LF vibration from earth or from AC transformers on the lower shelves or from acoustic waves from the speakers. Most of this energy can be absorbed in very low-frequency vibration by placing the entire suspensionless TT & motor assy on a decoupling platform of air springs or mechanical springs.
As an ancillary benefit it's easy to level up the TT by shifting the springs around.
|
Removing the four air ball suspentions of the VPI TNT and coupling the
turntable with a symposium Ultra Platform via three sets of rollerblocks Jr.
and couplers takes the TNT to a much superior level of performance. |
The Walker, Continuum and Rockport are not suspended designs.
Just because two of them may be placed on air-suspended platforms has little in common with the principles of true 'suspended design' turntables like the VPIs, Linn and Sotas.
To join the 3 turntables mentioned above as non-suspended....add in the Raven AC and you will see that probably the most recognised top 4 turntables available today, are un-suspended high-mass designs. |
