Suspended vs. non suspended turntable

Congrats on your suspension modification. I don't see the need for it, but if it makes you happy you can be the High Priest of the Isolation sect.

Don't worry about the type. With either, pay attention to the implementation. There are good and bad examples in both.

Hanging the table removes a lot of vibration issues from the equation.

As does mass. I don't believe I've missed the point at all. I've owned suspended and non-suspended tables. Some within the same line of manufacturer: Basis Audio. I don't buy into the garbage anymore about one type being necessarily superior to the other. This is nothing more than two approaches at solving the same problem. In the end the only thing that really matters is how the music sounds to you.

Mass, yes. Isolation, not so much.

I found that even rapping the equipment stand hard with my knuckles did not transmit any sound to the speakers.

This is another issue that comes up often that I admit I just don't understand. My table is in my finished basement (concrete floor) and my DIY stand incorporates sandboxes, thick hardwoods, granite shelves and Stillpoints. If I wrap on a leg of the stand with the stylus down I can hear a thump through the speakers. Same thing would happen back when I had a Basis 2500/Vector tonearm.

But I have to ask, "So what? Why would you do that?" I'm not in the habit of doing this while listening to LPs. And I don't know anyone else who does this. So I'm at a loss to understand why the vinyl-phile community seems to bring this up as some sort of test to prove or disprove something.

Now, if you can hear your footsteps through the speakers as you walk around the room then I'd agree there is an issue. ;-)

I'm sure if you take away any part that was designed in there will be a change. That's true of any table. Because a particular table of either design doesn't work in one situation does not invalidate the design philosophy in any way. Even within the same camp, be it suspended or not, there are some tables that will deal with a particular setup issue better than others. Same with every other component in a system. That's why there are few easy answers in this hobby.

Raul, how do you say "blah" in Spanish? ;-)

It's not really over-analyzing. Moving the table, or allowing it to move, is exactly the principal behind a suspension. The idea is to sink the vibrations into the suspension, which I believe are eventually transfered into heat from the friction in the springs/air/fluid. The high mass solution ultimately results in the same product, heat. In either method it is possible to over-damp, under-damp, or damp just right. Sounds like Goldie Locks, but in simplest terms that's the idea.

I'm guessing los blah-mos since I get the impression turntable design is a masculine task. And besides, las blah-mas just doesn't sound right.

OH, BOY! Now we get to spend $17K of someone else's money! While I ponder my version of a shopping list I'll throw out some more things that can be pondered while visiting the porcelain throne.

I'm not intending to pick on Dgarretson here. I'm just trying to think out loud and see if I can resolve somethings to my benefit. The more I learn the more I know how much I don't know.

If I'm taking too much of a turn from the topic of Amfibius's thread I'll be happy to take this discussion to a new one.

regarding the merit of a non-suspended TT, but sited on a platform that provides a decoupling suspension.

Adding a suspension to a non-suspended table? If this does improve the performance of any table, what does that say about that table's implementation? Flip that around to those who find that removing the suspension from a table in favor of fixed feet. Again, what does that say for the table's build or design?

But then again, maybe it is the combination of the table and what it sits on. I have found that the material directly in contact with my table has a lot to do with the performance that I get from my analog system. Either way it seems to me that we still have to make our determinations about a table's setup and performance on a case by case basis since there are so many factors that affect what we get. Analog can definitely be a tweaker's dream or nightmare.

[quote] If you can rap the rack with your knuckles and hear the sound through the speakers while the stylus rests in the record groove, then it's likely that the rack is acting as an antennae for LF vibration from earth or from AC transformers on the lower shelves or from acoustic waves from the speakers. [/qoute]

I believe the natural frequency of the earth is around 6-8Hz. Well below the resonance of most arm/cart combinations. Don't think that's going to affect much in the audible range. However, I can see that if one lived on a busy city street or had a freeway right next door there perhaps may be some transfer of noise into the table.

I can't see how rapping my knuckles, a force of several ounces or more per square inch, can indicate that sound waves can be influencing anything through my table above the noise floor of my analog system as a whole. I agree that it tells me the wood I built my rack from is relatively easily excited.

Noise from other components on the same stand. That should be real easy to measure the difference. All one needs to do is measure the response through the speakers with the components in the stand and with the components not in the stand. Very easy to find out if the difference is above the noise floor or not. This iss assuming that the sensitivity of the measuring equipment is sufficient enough to record the difference. Even if the equipment is not, and more importantly, can your ears hear the difference?

Gives me something to ponder.

Amfibius, I don't know if you've said this before or not but have you had any experience with vinyl?

Ah, I get it. Isolation under components like power supplies. Yeah, that works. At least I get good results with the roller blocks. I'm using Stillpoints under my table as a temporary stop gap. The granite in direct contact with my table doesn't work so well due to the ringing of the stone. But I'm doing so at the expense of a slight loss in attack and some bass punch.

Here's my .02. Get the best table, arm and phono stage you can for now. You can always add a better platform and cartridge latter. If you're handy you can easily build a decent RCM for less than $100.

Maybe break it down to 14K for table and phono stage, 5K for an arm, and let the last 1K buy you a cartridge. I'm sure others will have opinions on this as well.

From Sumiko's webpage

Massive 12lb. (5.4kg) sandwich construction acrylic platter virtually eliminated unwanted resonances.

I can see why you need some help with dampening. Dgarretson's VPI runs around 60-70 lbs. Maybe that's a little better, but I see a common theme with those who keep demanding that everybody who doesn't use complete isolation is missing out. For comparison, my table and stand together are well over 300 lbs. Hey, if it works for you.

If I've learned anything in this hobby it's that one size doesn't fit all.

Amfibius, I should have mentioned in my post that I'm keeping in mind the rest of your system. Those Violons deserve to be feed with a really good analog source. I don't want to totally dismiss the importance of stand, etc., but the idea is that you can always improve the sound with additions and tweaks if you start with a great component.

If you get the urge to DIY a table I would suggest contacting Teres for the bearing and a perhaps a platter because I think Chris Brady still sells these ala-carte.

Also, if you consider a good DC motor you can either use a wall-wart or better yet a 12 volt batter supply to drive it. Here again, ask Teres. Maybe they still have some left over prior to the rim drive switch.

Yes, RCM is record cleaning machine. I built one several years ago and still use it today. It's manually powered but I'd put it up against anything as long as we don't count convenience and noise.

That's been in the back of my mind as well. For the moment, forget about vibrations that may be transfered through the stand or table. Short of playing records in a vacuum, I don't see how we get away from airborne vibrations no matter what we chose to put under our tables. But it seems to me that these are much less deleterious than the vibrations and resonances within the cartridge body and tonearm due to the physical vibrations imparted by the gyrations of the stylus. These are the real culprits to me. I've never been able to get a stylus to mistrack because of sound pressure, not that I've really tried beyond just cranking the volume to rock out. Maybe I've missed it, but I don't recall hearing of anyone ever reporting that happening either. Now I think anyone who has spent time in the analog world has experienced LF feedback. But that's not what I'm talking about here and I doubt that is an issue with several hundred pounds of mass involved.

Dcstep, that's a test I can trust. I wonder if I can re-create this with my CDP and a recording that I have in both formats.

Maybe we should start a new thread. Seems like we're getting farther and farther away from Amfibius' topic.

I'm really not setup to do this test. No headphones, no SACD or DVD-A.