Supratek Tubes and Tube Swappin' for Everybody

anybody bothered to try the valve art 350b? we and nu are too pricey for my taste. at $50 for a pair i might take the risk in the near future.

Kgturner. I have never tried the new valve arts as the regulators in my supratek however a friend bought a pair for output tubes in his 6L6 based Audio Note amplifier. The the results were pretty disappointing when compared to his nos 6L6's and a bad joke when compared my Western Electric 350b's. Worth a try as a regulator though.... who knows,might work well for that application.

Hey Slowhand. How good is that! congrats man.

I just recieved a pair of NIN,NOS,Tungsol 6F6Gs ST,Boy do these sound good,using them with RCA grey glass VT231,and stock 5AR4 Sovtek,great combo in my Chardonnay!

Hello guys,concerning my response above ;i love how these tubes sound,id like to get another pair just like them,how can i make sure im getting the same tube?on the glass it has the stop sign shape w/6F6G-G1M ,on the base it has the number 322136,any info would be great!Thanks,Ray

Check with Brendan at Tube World 920-208-0353. Few tube vendors have a better inventory and know more than he does. I bought 4 NOS Westinghouse 6F6GT (replacing Grange stock 5881) regulators from him and they are superb.

Hey Ray.I will check my stash. I have a bunch of 6f6G's.

Hi Gang. Mem916. Did those marconi px4's show up?

Thanks Guys!Are the ST 6F6Gs made in the 1930s-40s ?

Wc65mustang,They only have one used one in stock,,Thanks Ecclectique,Let me know if you find any!Thanks,Man,,,these seem to be hard to find NOS ! I have a used pr. of Sylvanias and Brimers,that sound good,but not as smooth and clean as the NOS,NIB pr.Tungsols

Hi Ray. The 6f6g [shoulder shaped bottles]were the first examples of this pentode and typically made in the 30's. The st glass version was introduced later [40's-50's] and then followed with the metal envelope types. In the suprateks, the G bottles are the better sounding. Most all G versions internals have a round black plate very similiar to that of the Western Electric 350b, although I have seen some with oval plates as well.The 6f6 pentodes were typically used in many early radios and juke boxes.

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Wc65mustang,
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Have you tried Tung Sol 5881's as well as the 6f6G's? I spoke with Brendan today and ordered a quad of Tung Sol 5881's.
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At this point, I still have the Sovtek's that came with the unit. I have one more position to roll after I figure out the best 5881's or replacements.
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Did you find a large difference when you changed out the 5881'S and if so what did you get ?
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Rgds,
Larry
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Hi all,

I want to improve my phono stage by replacing the 6922 tubes on my Chenin and based on what I've read recently, esp. comments from Mick, this seems like a good thing to try. I've already rolled my 6sn7 with Ken Rad VT-231 "US Navy" from the '40s.

Can Chenin owners say which 6922 tubes do the best job, for the money? I know the Telefunken CCa are supposed to the pinnacle but they are very expensive. Tube World has a lot of 6922s for sale but which have you tried that did the best job for you? My price limit is about $250 for a pair.

Many thanks,

Nick.

Larry,
Mick told me that the Tung Sols are an improvement but not worth the expense. I have no idea what you paid but from my recollection they are a fairly expensive tube and I would have needed 4 of them. More importantly however, the 5881 is a much better output tube in a push pull circuit than it is as a regulator.

The Westinghouse 6F6GT in concert with the 1957 Philips metal base GZ37 (I changed all at the same time) increased the dynamics appreciably. The transients are also much quicker and detailed. IMO, an upgraded rectifier has a bigger impact than upgraded regulators in my Grange.

I just had the Hexfred diodes installed as well as an adjustable filament voltage switch. This will enable use of three different output tubes PX/4 (2.5V), 45 (4.0V), and 300B (5.0V). I have a pair of Emission Labs 45 mesh that I'll be playing with this weekend.

Hi Mustang. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the EL 45 compared to the PX4 and the 300b.The 45 is one amazing tube when used as an output in a single ended circuit. Larry, my take on the value of the Tungsol 5881 mirrors Mustang's to a T. The guitar guy's love them,and the demand has driven up their market value significantly in recent years.The 6F6G/vt-66 family of tubes is still relatively inexpensive by comparison.The money saved would be a far better value invested in a great nos rectifier.

Ecclectique,
Well it will be a busy weekend. I purchased a pair of Sophia 45 Mesh Plate last week and a friend of mine is letting me borrow the EL 45 which he intends to sell. So I have a new pair of Sophias that have never been fired up for sale. Then to complicate matters the same friend found a pair of vintage WE300B that I jumped at immediately. I'll leave you a note in a few weeks.

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David / Wc65mustang,
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Thanks for the advice on the 5881's. I already bought a pair, but will pick up a quad of Westinghouse 6F6GT's. Would Tube World be a good place to get them ?
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Wc65mustang, Are you having any microphonic issues with your Grange ?
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Thanks & Rgds,
Larry
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Hi Larry,
I bought my GT's from Brendan at Tube World. I've dealt with most tube vendors and I find that his selection and quality is unparalleled. He's not always the lowest priced but he stands behind the sale which to me is important when you're dealing with 40-60 year old products.
My Grange is microphonic but I wouldn't call it a "problem". There are a number of means to isolate and/or remove surrounding vibration without spending a ton of money and most importantly violating the doctrine of matrimonial harmony. :-)))

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Wc65mustang,
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Thanks for the quick response.
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I buy 90%+ of my tubes from Brendan for the same reasons. I would much rather pay a premium, get a great sounding tube and have someone that stands behind all that he does than try to save a few dollars and run the inherent risks involved in buying NOS tubes.
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I will get a hold of Brendan again and order a quad of the 6F6GT's and let you know how they compare with the Tungsol 5881's that I just received from him.
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Do you know of a good replacement tube for the 2 tubes that sit in front of the PX4's in the Grange. The stock tubes are SOVTEK's with the number 6H30(n)-EB. The (n) is a Russian letter that looks a bit like an English lower case N. I asked Brendan if he knew the tube and it was new to him.
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Thanks / Rgds,
Larry
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Larry,
If I'm not mistaken it is a Russian designed (and built) tube with very few, if any, substitutes. Ecclectique and Whoopadeedoo, please jump in here.

PS I just bought a dynamite pair of Siemens 7308 (circa 1972) to replace my Cca. Absolutely the finest 6922/Cca/7308 that I've ever heard. Quite expensive at $410/pr but after a few hours with them, I have no regrets whatsoever. Check them out if you are going to buy yourself a Christmas present. You'll flip at the extremely low noise level and spectacular dynamics. A breathtaking tube.

And by the way, Merry Christmas to all Supratek owners and everyone following this thread.

Hi Gang. Larry/Mustang.....Yes, the 6h30 is a dual triode developed by the Soviet Army. There is no equivalent sub for it.Until the fall of the Big Red Machine,no one even new it existed. Victor Khomenko of BAT was one of the first to introduce it to the West and employ the 6h30 in a commercial design. He dubbed it "the super tube". More and more designers,DIY types as well as the industry giants [ARC,CJ etc]are now embracing this tube for use in audio circuit design and rightly so as it does possess some unique electrical characteristics that are ideal for use in audio circuits that other triodes simply cannot do. Unusually high filament current[transconductance]combined with very low plate resistance, as well as an ideal amplification factor whereby it can be employed as a single stage all by itself, without the use of any negative feedback or cathode followers. Not to mention it's a 10,000 hour tube thats very low in noise and microphony.

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Wc65mustang....Thanks for the heads up on the Siemens 7308 replacement for the 6922 position. I will check with Brendan and see what he might have on hand. I might even get them cryoed.
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David..... Thanks for the information on the Russian 6h30. Any idea as to where I might pick up another pair? I would like to see what cryoing them might do for the sonics. You never cease to amaze me with your tube knowledge and willingness to share....
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Thanks & Best Regards,
Larry
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Hi Larry. Did you get yourself a Grange too? The partsconnexion.com up here in Canada sells the 6n30 as well as many nos tubes including the siemens ecc88's. Chris Johnson is the former founder and president of the now defunct Sonic Frontiers.A good guy and I think he provides a service for cryo'ing tubes as well.

I am assuming the Supratek can handle the 6H30. While often touted as a 6922 variant, it really is a much more demanding tube and should never be substituted into a 6922 application (though it's often safe to sub 6922 in place of gear designed for 6H30).

The 6H30 you should seek out is the 6H30P-DR. It's the premium version of this soviet tube, built with much better parts and tighter specifications. thetubestore.com has them in stock last time I checked.

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David,
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I received my Grange last February and love it. I had swapped out all of the tubes except for the Regulator position (just did not get around to it until now).
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I am waiting to see what luck other people have with their upgrades before attempting any changes of caps or adding a stepped attenuator.
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I will probably pick up a pair of 6h30's and have them cryoed to see how they fare vs. the stock Sovtek's that came with the Grange.
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Thanks again & Best Regards,
Larry
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Wc65mustang,
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Have you had a chance to compare the 300B's to your PX4's yet ? I am curious to hear if getting a pair of 300b's is worth the effort.
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Rgds,
Larry
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Larry,
Actually not yet as I'm playing with a pair of Emission Labs 45 mesh plates for a few weeks. They are much sweeter and far less microphonic than the PX/4. I'm saving the WE for the holidays. :-)))))

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Wc65Mustang,
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I am getting an incredible amount of microphonics. If I tap the volume and channel control knobs in the front of pre-box (as well as any tube in the pre-box or top plate of the box), I get huge ringing through the speakers. If the system is up but nothing playing on the TT or CD player and I clap my hands or speak loudly, I get ringing and microphonics through the speakers.
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The Grange came from Mick with the TJ PX4's and a pair of TJ 300B/n's. I just dropped the 300b’s for the first time and seem to have the same high level of microphonics.
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Did you get the same level of Microphonics from the TJ 300B’s as you did with the PX4’s.
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I have a few Herbie’s tube dampeners on the 6SN7’s, 6922’s and E180F’s, but not the PX4’s or the 300b’s nor any of the power supply tubes. Have you had any luck with tube dampeners.
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David, please feel free to jump in here.
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Thanks / Rgds,
Larry
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Hey Larry, Congrats on the grange,I'm very jealous. I am still contemplating ordering one myself, as I have been a big fan of DHT amplification for years. My experience with the 45,2a3,300b,845 triodes etc is that they all seem to possess a certain soul,a righteousness if you will,a purity of sound that is hard to describe.Having the abilty to tune ones preamp with the soul of these various DHT triodes has got to be the ultimate front end. Kudos to the brilliance of Mick for pushing the envelope here.I am sure either choice of the various DTH triodes will sound fabulous but I have a sneaky suspician the natural beauty of WE 300b or a nos 45 will end up as the tube of choice here. Mustang..... sounds like your going to have an exciting Christmas holiday and I am eager to hear your thoughts on the voice of the different tubes in the mighty Grange.I am not at all surprised that some of you guy's are finding the mesh plate tube types to be microphonic.Most mesh plate type tubes are prone to microphonic by design.

Hi Larry, I read your last post just after I posted mine. I have to go to a hockey game and will get back a little later.

Larry,
I use Herbie's on all of my signal tubes except the 45 mesh plates. Although my preamp is equipped to run 300B, I have not tried them yet so I can't answer your question. As I posted prior, the 45's are much less microphonic than the PX/4 which I never plan to use again. No dampers in the power supply as there is no need.
I do not use 6SN7 as Mick's personal choice is the 76 in that position. I replaced the stock 76 with a pair of 1942 RCA VT-37 which made a significant improvement in the mids.
I took Whoopadeedoo's advice and ordered a pair of the special Russian 6H30 yesterday.
To address your first concern, yes there is a fair amount of microphonics with this preamplifier; it's the price we pay for greatness. Believe it or not the best device I've used and settled on is one of those Gingko rubber ball platforms. I tried cones, roller bearings, and Symposium but for this particular application the Gingko works the best. Give it a shot; they offer a money back guarantee. You'll need the Cloud 11 which is the larger version of the Cloud 10.

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Wc & David,
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Thanks for advice.
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Do the 45's require the same voltage as the 300b's or the PX4’s? Can I put the 45's in my system if it can handle both the PX4's and the 300B's ?
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Wc, have you ever listened to the 6SN7's in your system ? I just sent Brendan an email ordering a pair of 7308's per your recommendation and a quad of 6F6GT's. Presently, I have a set of Symposium Rollerblocks under both Grange boxes. Was it the Symposium Roller Blocks that you tried ? I will look into the Ginko Rubber Ball platforms.
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David, what do you think that the differences between the 6SN7's and the76's might be in my Grange ?
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Rgds,
Larry
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Larry,
No I have not heard the 6SN7 as my Grange is not configured for that tube only the 76/37.
Voltage for the power tubes is:
2.5V 45
5V 300B
4V PX/4

I can switch among all 3 voltages. Nice option.

Larry,
Sorry I forgot to address your vibration question. I was using the Symposium Super Plus Platform alone and in conjunction with both Aurios and Final Labs roller bearings (only one brand at a time of course). Surprisingly the roller bearings actually exacerbated the microphonics in my rack but as always YMMV. I then tried the Gingko with and without the roller bearings and after all the smoke cleared the Cloud 11 alone works best. My power supply is sitting on a 2" maple platform from Timbernation which sits on a set of Final Labs Daruma 3; no problems there. Don't give up and you'll find the right piece(s) or combination thereof.
Congrats on the 7308; you're going to flip. They're that good.

Hi Larry. A tough call on the choice of either the 76 or the 6sn7. The 6sn7 uses an octal base whereby the 76 uses a UX type base so there is no substitution option for comparison. The 76 is also a single triode whereby the 6sn7 is a dual triode. The single triode equivalent of the 6sn7 is the 6j5 which is electrically very similiar to the 76 with a slightly higher amplification factor. There are different flavours to be sampled in both choices however my only bone to pick with the 6sn7 is that there are really only 3 or 4 examples of the 6sn7 that will sonically compete with a 76 as well as many other single triodes like the 37,56,7168,6j5,6c5,6p5. The few that do will cost you a small fortune. The only down side to the 76 is it's a 50 year old tube and somewhat difficult to source these days and even then it's only a fraction of the cost of a tungsol round.

Hi Larry. I am not at all surprised that the Grange is sensitive to microphonics when using the meshplate examples of these directly heated triodes.Most of my experience with these DHT triodes is from repairing vintage amplifiers that used them.The early amplifiers that employed these tubes had to deal with the same issue common to DHT tubes. Most of the better amplifiers of the day employed a hum pot in the circuit to trim away the hum and microphony from the amp. A single triode like the 6j5,56 or 76 was also commonly employed as the driver for the DHT output tube in most of these amplifiers. In most cases, the meshplate examples of these triodes are generally far more prone to microphony than the solid plate examples of the same tube,and the same can be said for the driver tube as well. I would think one would have more success using a solid plate version of these tubes in a preamplifier circuit. The old nos RCA 45 is a fabulous tube and far less prone to microphony. I seriously doubt you can find a better sounding tube anyway. The same can be said for the Western Electric 300b for those that can afford them.Hey, it's a great option to have the ability to voice the grange with the different DTH's if one has various a examples of each type laying around.... but if it were me I would lose the microphonic prone meshies like the px4 and be done with it. Hey,I really love the sound of the early nos 6c5 meshie in my cortese, the 6c5 is basically the octal base equivalent to the 76. I had to sort through no less than 16 examples to find a pair that were acceptable for duty in the preamp. With the metal envelope versions of the same tube, not one of them were the least bit microphonic.Unfortunatly, they don't sound the same either.

A dissenting opinion on 76. I'm not a big fan. I have many pairs for my personal use and have sold quite a few in the past, but in terms of sonic attributes, I'd much rather use 6SN7 then 76 tubes myself.

>>I'd much rather use 6SN7 then 76 tubes myself<<

Which is not a bad thing. However Mick prefers the 76 or 37 in the Grange at least. Mine sounds much nicer with a pair of NOS VT-37 (RCA) than the factory supplied Italian made 76. "Different strokes", as Sly used to sing.

Any Cabernet owner's have any thoughts? Mine came fitted with mb300 outputs. Would eml 45's be a nice upgrade? Regulator? I would love to hear from experienced tube swappers what they have done with their Cabernet.

Larry unless you can switch the filament voltage from 5v to 2.5v the 45 won't work. However if you have that option, I have a new pair of Sophia 45 Mesh Plates (ceramic base upgrade) that I'd be willing to sell you. Email me outside of the thread if interested.

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Mc,
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I have a switch on my Grange only that allows me to go from the PX4's to the 300B's so I guess I would fry a pair of Sophia 45's if I tried dropping them in.
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I guess I will wait and see how your new 300B's sound and then chase those down if they greatly surpass your Sophia's.
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Thanks,
Larry
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Ecclectique,

Hi David, my Syrah was very prone to microphonics compared the my Cortese. It is very quiet when tapped on. Both preamps take the same tubes. Why is the Cortese less prone to microphonics? When I rap on it with the signal on,but no music playing it is dead quiet. I always thought microphonics was a tube issue, but since both pres use the same tubes, I am not sure now.

Hi Slowhand. I am not sure how to respond here as my syrah has always been dead quiet unless I happened to roll in a microphonic tube.

Hi Ecclectique and Slowhand,I have the Chenin,The only time that I experienced any noise was changing 6922s in the phono section.I have afew pair,they test great,but some are microphonic... Other then that,it has been dead quiet from day one.Its also been plugged into a Shunyata Hydra power conditioner and cords from day one,and just recently a Nordost Thor power conditioner and cords.Check this out in your system... Everyone,have a great Christmas!

Well, I have not rolled any NOS tubes in my Cortese yet, so I guess I should not say that about my Syrah. I am sure it is a tube issue and nothing to do with the preamp itself. I guess the Cortese just feels more solid because it is packed with more inside than the Syrah was.

Hi Cello,Mustang,Larry. Curious as to what the general concensus was for the DTH gain tube of choice in the grange. cheers david.

Has anyone had any experience with 300b tubes and 45 solid plate tubes? Although I've fried a pair eml 45 mesh plate's I've gone ahead and ordered a pair of eml 45 solid plate's. I do love the sound of the tj300b's that came with the Cabernet, but until they went south, the 45 mesh's were sweet. Very lush and warm in the mid's and top end. Is their another 300 tube that sounds different, not necessarily better than the tj's? I'm realy looking for a variety of sound to play around with.

Larry,

I own a Grange, I had the Emission Labs 45 Mesh Plate's, and now use Western Electric 300B's. I my system the Western Electric are superior in every way. Not really even a close A/B comparison, to me they are night and day better.

Allow me to ressurect this thread. As a Cabernet owner I am slowly but surely expanding my tube inventory. I have the supplied tj300, great sounding, warm mids. I am currently listening with eml 45 solid plates. Deeper bass, less warm, but more detailed Mid's and High's. Next I am intrigued by the reputation of the Western Electric 300b's. But I have also read interesting talk about the Sophia 300b's. Anyone with any thought's, insight's or experience would be greatly apprecieated!

Larry,I have used the TJ and the EH 300bs.They are quite different sounding.The EH sounds much drier.On balance I much prefer the TJ meshplate although on initial listening I thought the EH was better.The TJ sounds more valvey I guess.
I have also heard the Western Electric but really didn't think it was anything special[certainly not worth the price].

I am going to the temple of Supratek this morning.Mick is going to guide me through restoring some old Crown stats.I might get to hear his latest project-a valve active crossover.

JT