In a small room like yours you shouldn't need much in the way of a subwoofer. I have an SVS SB-12 NSD and it provides more than enough bass without turning the gain up very far. I'm very happy with the way it integrates with the Harbeths. You can still find them for $400 and they have a little more power than the current SVS entry level sub, the SB1000, which is $500. A Rythmik L12 would be another nice option at $550.
Suggestions for Harbeth P3ESR speakers
Last year I purchased a used pair of P3ESR speakers in cherry finish for my study. The gentleman from whom I bought the speakers also had a Naim Unitiqute (first version) that he sold to me at a decent price. While I liked the combination, I always felt that the Unitiqute was a little under powered for driving the Harbeths to their full potential. To make matters worse, the digital display (green LCD) on the Unitiqute started to fade and eventually went out after a few months. Searching on the internet revealed that this is a common problem with Naim amps. On one hand, they recommend that the amp be kept on at all times for optimal performance, but on the other hand they use substandard parts for the display. What a shame! So now, while I can still listen to music, I can't really see any information on the amp. Cannot listen to the internet radio, which was a feature I enjoyed, anymore 'cause I can't see the display.
So now, I'm in two minds. Will getting another amp make the Harbeths open up further? Or am I better off selling them and trying something else instead. I already have a pair of KEF LS50 Wireless that I really like and enjoy. KEF has come up with a smaller version (LSX), which is worth a try.
If I decide to stay with the Harbeths, what other amps can you folks recommend?
Limitations: Have to buy used, under $2000 preferably. Small footprint preferred since it's in my study (10x12x12).
Music: Mostly jazz (including modern), vocals (Diana Krall, Gregory Porter, Nina Simone), soft/psychedelic rock -- Pink Floyd, etc. Sometimes I do listen to hard rock or mainstream pop also. Don't really listen at high volumes mostly but do like to crank it up every now and then.
Lastly, I think adding a small, fast, and musical sub might also help. Recommendations in this category are also welcome
So now, I'm in two minds. Will getting another amp make the Harbeths open up further? Or am I better off selling them and trying something else instead. I already have a pair of KEF LS50 Wireless that I really like and enjoy. KEF has come up with a smaller version (LSX), which is worth a try.
If I decide to stay with the Harbeths, what other amps can you folks recommend?
Limitations: Have to buy used, under $2000 preferably. Small footprint preferred since it's in my study (10x12x12).
Music: Mostly jazz (including modern), vocals (Diana Krall, Gregory Porter, Nina Simone), soft/psychedelic rock -- Pink Floyd, etc. Sometimes I do listen to hard rock or mainstream pop also. Don't really listen at high volumes mostly but do like to crank it up every now and then.
Lastly, I think adding a small, fast, and musical sub might also help. Recommendations in this category are also welcome
23 responses Add your response
Ok now that I have the basics (amp + speakers) under control, I'm trying to see what improvements I can pursue going forward. Let me share what I think those areas should be, as well as my concerns … Apple TV -- I'm currently using Apple TV as a streamer. Some folks have suggested moving up to a more purpose-built device like the Bluesound Node. My question is if it's worth the price if I already use a DAC (Cambridge Audio Azur 851D) which is (subjectively) better than the one found in the Bluesound. So if you take the DAC out of the equation, is it worth spending money on the Bluesound purely as a streamer? DAC -- Should I look into upgrading my DAC first? The Azur 851D is a good DAC, but it's about 4 years old now. I wonder if there are better DACs out there that might noticeably improve the sound quality? I don't mind spending up to $2000 for a used device, but cannot justify anything higher. Or should I stay with my current DAC? Subwoofer -- Several of you have suggested adding a subwoofer. For now, I'm happy with the bass response I'm getting. Besides, I've never had any luck integrating a sub with my KEF LS50 wireless. I can never tune it to my satisfaction. But let's say it's worth trying, what would you guys recommend? My preference is to have something that is musical, sealed and with a small footprint. Cables -- I'm currently using silver wires (Clear Day) -- btw, I recently found out that Paul (the owner) has passed away. May he rest in peace. He was a fantastic guy and spent at least two hours on the phone with me a few years ago before I made the purchase. Having said that, I wonder if silver cables are the best option here. Suggestions? Lastly, given that I will be making one change at a time as funds permit, it would be helpful to lay out a rough roadmap in terms of priority. |
I finally made the purchase yesterday! Happy to report that the improvement in SQ is substantial. I just can't believe how much bigger and better the Harbeth's are sounding right now. I'm finally beginning to see why people love the P3esr's so much. Without a doubt the Cronus Magnum has taken my music to a whole new level. |
@yogiboy Thanks for your response. I'm really loving the P3esr's at the moment. Initially, I was not impressed by the bass response, but things have improved considerably after around 200 hours of listening. These speakers are definitely keepers. Once you get used to the midrange magic, it's hard to enjoy other speakers. I'm really hoping the Cronus Magnum will take things up a notch or two. |
Having owned four pairs of the P3ESR including the newer 40th anniversary edition I am very familiar with those speakers. My friend uses the original Atlas Magnum 50 watt el34 power amp with the P3’s and they work fine together. I would say that the 100 watt Cronus in your size room will be fine. BTW, $1400 for the used Cronus is fine!! |
I originally started this thread more than 6 months ago, but had to put aside the purchase because of unexpected expenses. I'm finally ready to pull the trigger on a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnus II, sold by a local seller. A few questions … 1. Has anyone paired the Cronus with Harbeth speakers, specifically P3esr's? If so, how would you describe the sound? 2. Can the amp drive the P3esr's to their full potential? Although, my room is not that big (see details in earlier threads), I want to make sure it is sufficient for future needs. I plan to keep the P3esrs for a very long time. 3. I'm planning to use the Cambridge Audio Azur 851D DAC with the Cronus Magnus. Anyone sees any issues with this pairing? I'm hoping I can bypass the pre-amp function of the Azur and only use the DAC. 4. The seller is willing to sell the amp for $1400, which seems like a good price, especially considering that I save an extra $100 on shipping, since it's local. Do you guys think the price is reasonable? |
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. At this point, I am quite certain that I will drive down the tube route this time around, followed by a fast, small and musical sub. Keeping an eye on the deals here and local craigslist. The Rogue Cronus, and Rogue Audio in general, seems like a good choice. Naim is out for good, what a disappointment. Now I just have to wait for that bonus check to arrive :) |
I have P3ESRs with a Rogue Cronus Magnum II all tube integrated and the combination is fantastic. The CM2 is a 100w integrated. They have just come out with a CM3 that's $3,000 so many CM2 have hit the market in the $1,500 price range. And the "2" is very good as it is. The "3" added a few new features, but really the CM2 doesn't need upgrading. |
Arafiq, I would agree. Similarly I have read about display issues of the newer Naim gear. At the prices that Naim is charging this should not be happening. My Krell KPS-30i is close to 30 years old and the display is still working flawlessly until today. It is fortunate that all my Naim gear do not have displays (NAC 202 and NAC 282). The lack of power is a valid reason to the underperforming P3ESR. The speakers do respond well to more powerful amps. A sub will help with the bass by augmenting the frequencies which the speakers fail to reproduce. However, the right amp will not only improve the bass of the main speakers but open up the midrange and treble. The presentation of the Harbeth can be very different with a suitable amp particularly tubes. Some solid-state amps will also produce the results but be cautioned, the P3ESR may not sound much different if you pick the "wrong" amp. |
Honestly, I’d look into a sub first; then change the amp. Even a Boulder amp is not going to give the P3 any low end. Not to detract from the need for more power, but that would be my priority. What’s important in the sub is to choose a sealed one, to blend with the P3; one designed for music; and one with as much signal processing as you can afford (low-pass filter, adjustable phase, EQ). That stuff help attain a seamless blend. |
@yogiboy The Atlas Magnum ... the retail price is $2395. The listing is for $1895, i.e. the price is less than <25% of the original price. When buying used, I try to find deals around 40% off of the retail price. Yeah, I'm cheap like that , lol! Otherwise, it sounds like a really nice piece of equipment. Thanks for the suggestion. @ryder Your analysis is spot on. I really like the Naim sound, but you're absolutely right that their lower end equipment is under powered. The Unitiqute, when brand new, was listed for $2400. Given the quality issues with the display (more widespread than you would think), and the lack of sufficient power, especially in comparison to competitors, I'm just surprised that people still buy their lower to mid end gear at those prices. TBH, I'm kinda bummed out after the quality issues. Appreciate your suggestions. I'm seriously considering purchasing a used tube integrated. Given that I have zero experience with tube gear, I'll do my due diligence and do some research before jumping in the pool. |
Although everyone hears differently, the Naim is generally considered to be good match for the Harbeth, only when you go up to the separates. In my experience, the Nait XS and lower range integrateds do not cut it when matched with the Harbeth. In my book, the minimum level for my standard is the NAC 202 / NAP 200 separates. I’ve briefly tried the Nait XS with the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus and it sounded good but mediocre. The Harbeth sounded more poised, open and special with the 202/200 and even more spectacular with the 282/250DR. The Unitiqute is inferior to the Nait XS so I expect the P3ESR to sound mediocre when driven by that all-in-one. If you would like to hear the P3ESR near to its full potential, do explore other amps such as LFD Zero LEIV or V and Sonneteer Orton to name a few. Or perhaps Exposure 3010S2 at a lower level. Otherwise you may try some tube designs as I am quite sure the P3s will sound much more open and exquisite when driven by some of these select amps. Some Harbeth owners have reported great success matching Leben and Jadis Orchestra Reference to models ranging from P3ESR, C7ES3 to the M40.1. Based on my experience with the Nait XS driving the Harbeth, I am not surprised that you find the P3ESR and Unitiqute combination to sound lacklustre. |
@arafiq You should make an offer on that Atlas Magnum that is listed for $1895. It is a demo with full warranty. It looks like the seller is a Rogue dealer! My friend uses Rogue tube gear with his P3s and I use Quicksilver tube gear with my P3s and both give outstanding results!! |
@roberjerman: Thanks for the advice. I actually owned a Peachtree Nova 125 for almost two years. It never really impressed me. It was a bit too sparkly on the top for my taste. Also had some quality issues. Finally replaced it with a Parasound. The difference was night and day. Now admittedly, this was almost 5 years ago. It is possible that Peachtree has made improvements since then. @yogiboy This is interesting. For some reason I always thought that Harbeths go well with SS. I think even Alan Shaw recommends SS over tubes. But TBH, I've always been intrigued by tubes. Maybe it's worth a try. Thanks for recommending Rogue Audio. I'll check it out. They have several models on sale @ audiogon. Which one would you recommend? |
I agree with @yogiboy that a sub will open up the P3s. Adding a (used) B&W ASW610 to my P3s made a big difference. I chose a sealed-box sub to mate with the sealed-box P3s. I’m using a powerful amplifier (Marsh A400s), and I like the combination a lot. But it’s not an integrated; I never compared another amp; so I can’t say a lot here. Still, I would avoid any SS amp much under 100 watts or tube amp much under 50. Sealed-box speakers, in my experience, benefit from power. The LS50 and P3 have fundamentally different sounds. I prefer the latter and find it less fatiguing, despite the many good reviews of the LS50. (On the other hand, I believe the W versions use DSP to improve the frequency response.) I suggest an extended and careful audition before buying. |
The P3s sound great with tubes. 50 watts in that small room is sufficient to drive them. There are a few Rogue Audio integrated amps listed here within your budget that would fit the bill. I use a JL Audio Dominion with my P3s and it is a perfect match! http://www.jlaudio.com/home-audio-powered-subwoofers-dominion |
