have a pair of Proac Studio 200 speakers and thinking of adding a sub....but with the drivers in the Proacs being 7", what size sub ( driver ) should be used ? keep it close to the same size or go with a 10-12 driver ?
I first used a Velodyne 12" servo controlled sub circa early 90's.( don't remember the Model) got talked into it by large mid-fi retailer in Ft Laud. even though the rest of the sys. was krell amp, Vandersteen speakers, Cat pre and Basis Ovation... Then I opted for the Vandersteen 2w, one behind each speaker. WAS great BUT... between the Stereo being in the living room and the Krell (class a space heater) starting to delaminate the teak wall unit I had stuffed it in I was given a spare bedroom for a dedicated listening room. That was when the Vandersteens went away, the Proac's came in Response 2 and an amazing set of 36" tall entecs with 3 8" drivers in each side. Start the learning curve about room size, standing waves and room treatment. Amp's were now 200 watt MFA monos with 6550s . Glorious!!! But had to install second A/C vent and extra ceiling fan over the amp end of the room. Lived in So Fla at the time. Next up was a pair of the original Electra Amator speakers pre Sumiko days. They were not being imported at the time but I took a leap of faith and was well rewarded! Next up was a pair of Response 2S's. Did not like running the entec external crossover so settled on a midline/midsize Rel (single) (because of their high level input from the speaker posts on the amp, wanted to avoid the crossover) and was amazed. the MFA's left and were replaced by sonic frontiers Amp 2, and SF line 3 with the SF all tube phono. Amazing.... Then i jumped for a Proac 3.8 pair. A set of Cary 300b signature amps( with WE 300b tubes... wish i still had the tubes) did the hard work and I opted for a pair of RELs, one behind each 3.8. This was a great setup. I had by then invested in room tunes corner cushions and 4 of their tall panels.
currently using an older B3 Rel with either Proac D2s or Ref 3a De Cappo's . Amps are either SS (First Watt) or yet to be determined stereo tube amp.... something special about Proacs and hi quality tube amps. Very small room so I'm not thinking two RELs just yet..... After all this hobby can be a sickness....
I agree with the REL products. The High Level Neutrik Speakon connection is great. I suggest investing in Synergistic Cables for that connection rather than the stock cables.
Given your specs it appears you may want to consider these models A pair of S/3 SHO, or one S/5 SHO.
They do not list
Proac Studio 200 speakers, however if you match up the frequency response with one of the listed brands it will get you in the ball park.
If you are looking for a less expensive alternative try their B Series. One of the best ever produced.
I agree with wallyfl., Here's my two cents; I have three REL R-528 and one REL T-9. The T-9 is used for center in a home theater set-up and one REL R-528 behind the sofa. In front for LF and RF I have Paradigm Signature S2 and just outside them are the REL R-528's. I have them connected both high level and LFE. For two channel listening, I'm always amazed at how well everything blends. I sometimes have to put my ear up to the center channel (Paradigm CC-690) to see (hear) if it's putting anything out. Again, only left and right channels are active. Then I go back to my listening position and enjoy! I believe a good quality bookshelf with a good sub sounds as good or better than any tower since towers do not have the low frequency extension you get from a sub. And the REL, by connecting it via high level, it's getting the same exact signature and the main speakers so timing is right on. The REL is undisputedly the most musical subwoofer available. You have complete control of it's volume level and crossover frequency, ultimate flexibility to fine tune to any room. They will surprise you!
If you look at speaker driver's data, you find 8" to 10" bass speakers perform the best in the right cabinet. An 8" in a transmission line cabinet may be better than a 10".
Cone speed is as important as frequency response; the greater the mass of the speaker cone, the higher the risk of latency. If speaker cones (tweeter/mid/bass) have different latency, sound gets out of phase.
Martin Logan's electrostatics are classic examples of this where they struggle to get bass and panel phasing correct.....personally I never liked the sound of them for this reason. Quads had poor bass, but the phasing was lovely, sorry, getting off topic.
FWIW I have used Entec, Vandersteen, Velodyne and REL subs with 4 different series of Proac speakers. My ears like the REL products. They are fast and accurate, not to be confused with subs that make Top Gun(and Tom) sound great! They have a very simple attachment method that takes the output from your amps speaker terminals. Very adjustable and I have yet to find a room that they can't be tuned to work in... YMMV.
Get a 10" woofer model and start the learning curve about room resonances and standing waves. The Proac/REL combo can be very rewarding. Good Hunting!
Regarding an omnidirectional approach for the mono setup of subs, and in my case the GR Research/Rythmik OB sub combination. For me, my setup is for stereo. I reached out to Danny of GR research and he replied... "If I had two of the subs then I'd run them in stereo. They are only omni in the first octave and a half or so, then directionality begins."
bdp24: absolutely. It is for the same reason that I like my Quad electrostats. Speed is indeed not a property of the speakers but of their interaction with the room. I wil look into the 8 inch version. Thanks
m-db and willemj, a sub and the room it is in are a system, they can not be separated. The listening room itself is a speaker enclosure, in a way, and the subwoofer "swarm" is a way to deal with room modes acoustically.
Low frequencies being omni-directional is often cited as a reason why stereo subs are not necessary. One thing that makes an OB/Dipole sub different from a monopole sub is that it "loads" the room differently. At and below a certain frequency (depending on the distance between the front and rear of the sub’s woofers), the wave from the front of the OB/Dipole and the one from the rear, both of which are omni-directional, meet at the side of the OB/Dipole H-frame (or W-frame) and, being of opposite polarity, cancel out each other. The same thing happens with planar loudspeakers, but at a higher frequency. This acoustical phenomenon creates a null to either side of the sub’s frame---there is no sound propagated by the sub in the sidewall-to-sidewall plane, and the frequencies related to that room dimension (it’s width) are not "excited" by the sub. That is one reason why the OB/Dipole sub is perceived as being "faster" than the monopole sub---with the OB/Dipole Sub exciting fewer modes, the room exhibits less resonance, overhang, and boom.
It is actually the room that is "faster" with an OB/Dipole sub, not the sub itself. But just as with "normal" subs, other factors affect the quality of sound. The GR Research/Rythmik Sub combines the attributes of OB/Dipole room loading with Servo-Feedback amp/woofers (a joint effort by GR Research’s Dannie Richie---well known for his OB speaker designs, and Rythmik’s Brian Ding, known for his subs, of course), and is the only sub of it’s kind in the world. It is available in the original dual-12" woofer version, and now with 8" woofers instead, for smaller rooms/lower SPL.
True, after that it went in another direction. However, the first answer basically had it all: it is the room that you need to be concerned with. Since you ask, I have now found that elsewhere you give the room’s dimensions as 11x16x9 feet, and that makes the subsequent discussion all the more relevant. Room size is crucial information, and yours is very small: it gives a Schroeder frequency of about 200 Hz. Below that, you should expect room modes, i.e. hige peaks and the ocasional dips making for a boomy 'slow' bass. Therefore, if you still want to have deeper bass, you need to open the full box of tricks, i.e. perhaps bass traps, and certainly only small subs (and two or perhaps even four of them) plus dsp room eq. The dipole subs that were also mentioned in the subsequent discussion are another good idea, but probably they are physically to large in that room. But maybe you should just avoid subs in such a small room. Have you ever measured current in-room response with REW and a Umik-1 calibrated microphone? I ask because below some 200 Hz your main speakers may also need some equalization in that room. For the ultimate solution, there is now the DSpeaker X4 pre amplifier/DAC room eq. But it would be throwing a lot of technology to a problem that is really quite simple: the room is too small for full range reproduction. That size is about the same as my study, and there my choice has been to limit myself to speakers that are great but lack the bottom end: the Harbeth P3ESR. If there is no bass, it cannot get out of control either. And as I said, even without subs you may already have a problem with boomy bass and room modes. Measure response, and perhaps equalize the main speakers with REW into either the computer if that is your source, or a mini dsp. If you do decide to go the subwoofer route, the Antimode 8033 is the simplest to use form of dsp room eq, and it works a treat. No need for user adjustability. But it will only work for the subs, and your mains may need something too (hence the expensive DSpeaker X4). As for the subs themselves, I agree that sealed subs would be better than vented ones. Avoid anything other than the smallest ones. Good luck. And be prepared for a smallish ideal listening spot. The laws of physics have not changed, even if dsp eq bends them a bit.
With DSP driver size is much less an issue in a normal sized room. DSP is also more forgiving of placement and speaker integration.
Use a sealed subwoofer/s with the best microphone included adjustable DSP you can afford.
You can get one good DSP equiped sub and later slave a cheep sub from it to improve room mode reduction and better room loading.
If the Antimode systems are self adjusting without any user adjustability I would advise a user adjustable alternative. On the other hand any room optimization is way better than just gain, polarity, crossover, and phase, adjustments.
The only time you should hear your sub is when its turned off. Good luck with it.
your first reply regarding using a sealed sub vs a ported sub and other info was good info.....and after that , it was basically a conversation between you and " kennythekey" regarding the Antimode 8033.
Not sure how any of what you two discussed helps me ?
Please explain.
and kennythekey even says this :
"
I don't want to hijack addyson815's post, as he's looking for help with his Proacs. "
That makes sense. I have been very pleased with the response from DSPeaker's engineers in Finland. I called them on the phone, and they took their time to explain what I could expect and what I needed (and what I did not need, even if it was more expensive).
I don't want to hijack addyson815's post, as he's looking for help with his Proacs.
My issue, is not about the virtues of stereo vs mono configurations. Instead, my concern, as bdp24 has touched on, is how the Antimode may interfere with patented circuitry used for control between my subs and amps. As the Antimode takes control of certain features in sub amps, will that defeat the manufacturer's patented circuitry? I will reach out to Danny of GR Research and also DSPeaker for their thoughts. Kenny
OK. I agree that a dipole sub is a great idea (looked hard for one but could not find one at the time). However, why does a dipole sub benefit from stereo where an ordinary one does not? Deep bass is not directional, and the advantage of equalzing in mono is that the two subs even each other out more effectively. This really is an open question out of curiosity. I am just occasionally toying with the idea of getting these dipole subs, but I am not in the US, and they also seem rather large compared to the B&W PV1d that my wife finds only just tolerable (and perhaps rightly so), given that we already have the large Quad electrostats.
@willemj, Kenny is employing the GR Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub, a very unique, untraditional bass reproducer, in a manner unlike a "normal" monopole sub. I suggested the Dual Core so that he could continue employing the subs as separate left and right stereo bass reproducers. While having multiple mono subs can provide benefits over a single pair of stereo subs, the OB/Dipole Sub was not designed nor intended to be used in that fashion. While the sub CAN be employed in the same fashion as a monopole, to do so is to squander it’s unique capabilities.
Vandersteen Sub 3 coming soon advantages • no DSP processor in your analog circuits. •installs at speaker level ensures Better transition with existing amp.
•11 band tunable with built in room compensation deals with room peaks without over compensating Sealed system with proven speed. •Works with all Vandersteen feed forward High Pass units unloading existing amp from heavy lifting allowing the whole system to play with better transparency and clarity. JohnnyR
The Dual core will function as the sub crossover and volume control as the 8033 will not . I have both units . I use the dual core for my stereo distributed bass system .
bpd24, I have a pair of A370PEQ amps. I was speedreading the 8033's product page looking at the pictures. I saw right and left inputs/outputs on the back. I am using my preamp out to both sub amps, so I'll take another look at the Antimode models. Thanks, for the advice and praise. Kenny
Kenny, which version of the Rythmik A370 plate amp did you get for your GR Research OB/Dipole Subs? Whether the regular with RCA's only, or the XLR option model, the DSPeaker Anti-mode can be inserted between your pre-amp and the sub plate amps. Doing so keeps your main amp and speakers out of the processing altogether. By the way, the Anti-Mode you want is the Dual Core, not the 8033. The Dual Core provides room correction for a pair of stereo subs, the 8033 does not. Fantastic product, btw.
It sits between the amplifier (either at line level if you have that or with an attenuation cable at speaker level). It does not do low pass filtering or anything for you. You have to figure that out in the usual way. All it does is measure the room response of the subwoofer (an easy one time only automatic procedure with the provided microphone) and then applies an appropriate correction curve to the signal before it reaches the subwoofer. Since it removes bass peaks you may have to increase the sub’s level a bit, and that is all. See here for the manual: http://www.dspeaker.com/fileadmin/datasheets/dspeaker/antimode8033CinemaSIIen.pdf I have found it very easy to use, and remarkably effective for relatively little money. See here for a review: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dspeaker-anti-mode-8033-dsp-subwoofer-equalizer-tas-204/ In my case, my main speakers are Quad 2805s, and they lacked a bit of deep bass. So I added a B&W PV1d, but found it hard to integrate the sub perfectly. So I remembered all those stories about fasts stats and slow subs, and feared I had made a mistake. Then I stumbled upon the Antimode by chance and decided to take a gamble, because the theory and the physics seemed right, and so did the room response measurements that they presented as examples. And indeed, the bass suddenly became much tighter, more tuneful, and ’faster’. What I learned is that fast and slow has nothing to do with the moving mass of the speaker but with the slowly lingering decay of the in room response that you can see in waterfall plots. Stats are fast because they are dipoles that excite fewer room modes, and subs are slow because they go low and thus excite many room modes. Deal with those, and the sub becomes almost as ’fast’ as the stats. I have since learned that multiple subs are another good way to proceed, and the conclusion is, of course, that combining those two approaches is likely to give the best results.
Regarding the Antimode 8033, how does this device interface, if at all, with the sub's plate amp controls such as delay, phase, crossover, and volume? So, do you first zero-in your controls for sound and then put the 8033 in line? Or, will you need to recalibrate? Kenny
The trick about good integration of a sub has more to do with room integration than with the sub itself. Hence also, the proper size of the sub and driver are largely related to the size of the room. Pump too much deep bass into a small room and the result is pretty awful because of room modes. For that same reason I would always go for at least two smaller subs instead of one larger one, and always tamed by dsp room eq like the Antimode 8033. See here for a good first introduction: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/20101029using-multiple-subwoofers-to-improve-bass-the-welti-devanti... For music I would usually prefer a sealed sub. In a smallish room and on a limited budget perhaps two SVS SB1000s. In a larger room and on a bigger budget you may want to consider the Audiokinesis Swarm System: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ Both combined with the Antimode, of course.
Whether an 8" or 21" driver IMO its all about control. The more control the more versatile with a wider range of rooms and speakers and therefor a better value over time.
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