Correct John.
I used the article to re-evaluate speaker construction and if the other manufacturer uses innovative techniques for dampening. Not sound quality which I will judge for myself. And understand who is responsible for designing drivers or tweeters (such as Scan-Speak Ring Tweeter used in the V3) and using larger magnets or new materials such as carbon nano tubes. |
The design of Magico does not interest me its very standard in the industry thats what this threads about not magicos sound quality. About claiming a standard design is revolutionary. Plus now carbon nano tubes are suspected in causing cancer like asbestos. Wonder if speakers or other products so equiped will be considered toxic waist in the near future. |
IMO,the "thing" I get from a review is whether I want to persue giving myself some exposure to said product.That's it!Nothing more.
I will make an attempt to hear something,if it falls into my own take on how I want to do things.Sometimes this works out quite well,as I "may" be able to voice my own rig,to better get what I may(only occassionly)like about some product's performance.Occassionaly I am inpressed enough to find a way to buy it.
As to reviews...of course you have to take them with a grain of salt.
As to the Stereophile reviewers' "seriousness"....well like other journals,this is subjective as to how a particular reviewer comes off.
I think Mike Fremer got alot of (undeserving) heat on Audiogon,based on his "opinion" of the Grand Prix Monaco table.A review that got an almost "opposite" write up(as to how the reviewer liked the product)in Hi Fi Plus(from Roy Gregory)....Why?...I don't really care!!That's the subjective appeal of listening to something.Yet,I like M.F.,and thinks he does a job "I would screw up"!!
I "DO" happen to know Bob Reina(of Stereophile)quite well personally,and believe he is very honest,and down to earth in his review process.
I know his musical likes,and his system.He does NOT get new equipment often,but ascribes to the "logical" school of setting up a system to his needs,and making changes very logically/slowly..."one smart dude"!
Actually I think he deserves a special mention for NOT trying to get the hobbyist to go out and buy the very latest gadget that he may think is just swell,and he does not constsatly go on about the greatness of what he has,and how we are missing something,by not having "his" stuff!....
Then you look at guys like J.V. from TAS,who basically hypes almost everything!Without questioning price,or possibility of competing designs for less cash.He seems to have good equip,but he also seems to favor the "mfgr of the month" over the hobbyist,who spends their money.Of course he is doing his job,and quite well actually,but I come from an era when the reviewers of TAS(the old "real TAS")would have definitely had alot more to say about the pricing of the latest darlings,and would not have aided "some greedy" mfgrs in hiking up prices,because the reviewer simply kept mentioning the "fabulosity" of the design ENDLESSLY!!Review after review!!Until something better came along,of course.That annoys the crap out of me.......
Reina....well he is a musician extroadinaire,eclectic,interesting,has musical taste all over the place(I love that)and really understands that this is a hobby!...Btw,he has a really good sounding rig,but alot of his "personal" setup is NOT the newest(yet sounds damn good)!
Sorry for the rant |
I want to say something too: I think it would be wise to audition the Magico first (with the right set up and in a room with appropriate acoustics) before concluding that it is indeed a flavour of the month speaker...
I think only a few of you have done serious listening to the Magico's.
Chris |
Does seem like its the best loudspeaker of the month club. Every month or so a new revolutionary loudspeaker design is reviewed. I feel for the poor soul who buys these loudspeakers based on reviews only to read next month a new favored son is available. Most of the gear Iam interested in never gets tested and if so not by major mags. Very rare they have reviews that realy interest me. I do enjoy phile and other mags but the reviews are not much use system wise to me. But to be fair sure we all could list kit we would like reviewed maybe I should start my own mag and quit complaining about phile;) |
Yep, somebody's got to buy 'em new. I find the best way to evaluate a product is to read dozens of reviews. A lot of times you can read between the the lines of the magazine reviews and then read the discussions in the forums here and really get a good idea of what a piece is going to sound like. But it takes a lot of reading. Of course I think we all enjoy that.
Not all magazines are like that. For example cars (Car and Driver) and computer products (Cnet online) are often accurately reviewed. But it's quite clear audio is not that way. The market is probably just not big enough to support a print maganzine and dozens of esoteric products without an at best synergistic effort between the magazines and manufacturers. One thing I noticed reading Stereophile (I recently subscribed to the print version) that I hadn't noticed before is that the writers are very serious about the hobby. Almost serious to a fault even thought they are clearly over-hyping almost everything they review. They know where their bread and butter is (advertising) but they do seem to be genuinely into it to a strong degree. Like I said since they are clearly over the top I just take their reviews with several grains of salt and enjoy the fiction as well as the true. |
Wireless,my comments were merely expressing an interest in a fine looking design,in the KEF.From a fan point of view,not as someone running out to spend money.
I certainly like the coaxial mid/tweet,and well matched woofer employed.Not cheap,but the "about to hit the market" TAD monitor will,also be a coaxial mid/tweet design(three way too)but be five times the cost....
A decent reason to shine a light on the KEF,for those interested.
Best |
Dhaan,
I think you stated the reason why people need so much affirmation. Its because it IS hard to know for sure exactly what something will sound like once you take it home, and, perhaps even more importantly, it is costly to make poorly informed decisions whenever purchasing products based on technology, especially when investing large sums on new equipment that will generally depreciate in value over time. |
I think that we are all expecting too much from these magazines. It is obvious, from reading these forums how hard it is for people to make decisions on their own and how emotional this activity is. Why is it that people need so much a affirmation when it come to audio equipments? |
Its not fair to single out audio mags either. Most media outlets are marketing, not service driven. The goal is to get people to buy more new things. Audio is no different. Just face this reality and think before you believe anything someone tells you.
Isn't that part of what makes this country great? |
It's not fair to single out Stereophile in this regard, TAS, 6moons, all of them are guilty of promoting the latest as the greatest. Many Audiogoners as well. Consumer Reports? Zero credibility when it comes to audio equipment. |
Very well said Wireless200.
It is quite obvious that whatever piece of gear Stereophile happens to be reviewing at the time is "the best sounding" ground breaking must have piece of gear available. Meanwhile some of the reviewers have 10 year-old pieces of gear in their systems. I recently listened to a friends rig consisting of nearly 10-year old Krell Class A Series Components and Wilson Audio W/P 6 Speakers, and it sounded awesome, and contrary to what Stereophile would have you believe, the new Systems, that I have recently heard (at this level), do not make it sound broken.
Stereophile Magazine is plainly and simply paid (through advertising dollars) to try to convince their readership that last years (or last issues) model is crap and that whatever you are listening to at Home is garbage, and that you are doing yourself a grave disservice unless you run-out and buy this newly-reviewed piece of gear. Nearly every review that I have read in this Magazine gives an absolutely glowing review, proclaiming the best of the best status on nearly everything they plug-in. This is not objective journalism, or consumer reporting, it is advertising.
Im sure that Consumer Reports Magazine would find that at least half of Stereophiles reviewed gear is over-priced garbage (most notably the equipment that frequently fails during the review, or shows up broken).
The Magazine does however have some interesting and well written show reviews, industry news and opinions, and strangely enough, their music reviews are actual reviews and not endorsements, but when they get their hands on a piece of electronic gear look-out, hear comes the not-so-subtle sales pitch
|
Sirspeedy, from my recent reading of Stereophile reviews take them all with a grain or several grains of salt. They don't seem to review much that they don't like a lot. The hyperbole freely flows. Last month they reviewed the Ravel Salon IIs and said something along the lines of "this is the best, most natural sounding speaker I've ever listened to." Come on. How can every new high-end piece be the best they've ever listened to? But they say that about a lot of stuff they review. There are plenty of amps, CDPs, etc, that if you go back and read the review, it's the best ever within some category. I wouldn't buy anything until it had been out a while because a lot of the stuff becomes flavor of the month then starts showing up used and a substantial discount because it wasn't all they cracked it up to be. |
These are not claims these are among the best speakers out there period MINI AND V3 are ground breaking designs and sound that way because of this. If you go to live classical concerts at top shelf halls you would know this.!! |
I must admit that the review of the new KEF Monitor speaker,in this last issue of Stereophile has caught my eye/ear!
This looks like a superb design.Not unlike the "coming" TAD three way Minimonitor!
Some really interesting small enclosure designs around the "audio corner",and the furure looks good.
From my experience(which means nothing,btw)the less enclosure present,the more natural the "presentation"!
Those with smaller rooms can rejoice,as new technology IS a good thing!!
Best. |
Magico Mini 2 is magical as well as VERY musical it is one of the best 2 ways out there sound wise. Having said this however i was at Carnegie Hall Saw the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra and nothing can do this in your home however MAGICO does come close both with MINI 2 AND V3. Remember its all about the sound not the price!! |
Asked to hear a really good tube system at SBS in NYC this past weekend. Magico Mini II with DCS Puccini CD, VTL TL G15 pre, VAC 300 PHI amp were auditioned and caught my ear.
Also read the recent Stereophile article.
"Revolutionary" is perhaps a bit overstated. Extremely well designed and executed would be more accurate. Innovative would also most certainly not be an overstatement given the unique combination of design elements incorporated. CAD design tools certainly enable precision designs when properly applied, but these tools have been around and in common use for well over 20 years at least now, right?
Having said this, the system I heard was certainly "magic" in its smooth, clean, transparent and effortless rendering (with just a touch of warmth) of the Saint-Saens Organ symphony on DG CD, particularly with the massed strings. Low end extension and dynamics were not all there with the smaller Magicos, but otherwise , this was a $100000 or so system that I could surely live with! |
Dhaan,I am a bit slow these days.Got your point!
Best |
It may sound egotistical, but if he didn't truly believe he was advancing speaker design and build then he wouldn't be building loudspeakers at all. It takes a big ego to make something and ask the price Magico charges. |
Sirspeedy- I was actually agreeing/marveling with/at what you said. |
Dhaan,I don't quite follow your thought.
Sorry. |
Sirspeedy - Pathetic indeed. What is up with that?? It seems like some sort of primal fear or need. Look at the commotion AW interview is causing . Much slurring about subjects that were taken completely out of context by people that I doubt even read it. Johnk - are you just regurgitating Hansen verbiage or did you actually read the interview? Where on earth does wolf says that he said hes the only one advancing loudspeaker design past 15 years and everything hes done is new. What exactly is bunch of BS And how do you know how big Wolf head is? Have you ever seen him? This is unbelievable |
Johnk,you kinda missed my point.
I like the Magico philosophy,and products alot.I also like many other products.
Because I trust my sensibilities,and need no reinforcement.I'm sure many others feel the same way. |
Are you all done patting each other on the back yet? |
Sirspeedy you have the post wrong. Thread is not about performance of magico its about the interview with Alen. Where he said hes the only one advancing loudspeaker design past 15 years and everything hes done is new. When all of its standard design and he insulted so many wonderful loudspeaker designers who actualy did come up with unique designs that advanced loudspeaker art. Plus like you say about you buddy whos scared of purchasing because of what he reads in forums. Well folks will read the Wolf interview and think its true when it a bunch of BS. Sound of magico is not what we are talking about. Just Wolfs large head and how a respected audio mag could print such BS... |
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Sirspeedy,
Hear hear, nicely said. We could probably all benefit by taking a moment to look at our audiophile reflection under the illumination of your post. |
It amazes me how some folks are SO affected by lots of press,and exposure to something new,as well as forum "talk",like here.!...HOW much experience does one need(in years in the hobby,or good sense)to be able to feel secure with a buying decision,regardless of what is to come?...."AND" something new surely "will" be around the corner!
My point being that although the Magico Minis are superb,in my friend's set-up/room(the room has a huge impact on this speaker),"he" is so insecure about the fabulous recent press of the newer V3,that he has gotten "absolutely" insecure with his decision about buying the Minis,and he is driving me nuts,because I cannot believ he cannot know this.
I happen to LOVE the speaker,as it sounds in his set-up,and so would you!!
Add a bit of criticism,from some of our local audio group(all usually carniverous towards anything new),about his bass performance(which sounds great to me,btw)and the recipe is set,for insecurity,and second guessing if "I bought the right speaker"!..Sheeeeesh!
Don't we actually know what we want from our own set-ups?Without having to read lots of praise,on a consistent basis,from reviews,and lots of nice "colored pics" in the latest issue of our favorite "gotta get it now,'cause your screws are loose if your speaker is over a year old"(more than figuratively) magazine?
My feelings are that the multitude of hobbyists who have spent years voicing a set-up,and may even prefer "quality vintage stuff"(much of "that" sounding amazing,if updated,and pampered,from what I have heard)have my greatest respect!...."These guys know" what they want from a music system,beyond the latest "great press" product!
Sid Marks is one of them."I could care less about anything except "how it sounds in my room"!!..His words!!...I don't have to say how amazing the guy's system actually "is"!And he knows it,and is secure to boot!
Unlike the "name brand" fan,friend of mine(a great guy),who just happens to have fabulous sound too,but "needs" others to remind him of this,regularly!...Two different hobbyists,from different eras in the hobby.Btw,Sid doesn't follow too many mags,or take everything to heart,from a reviewer....he "was" one!Ya gotta love the guy!
Both the Mini and V3 are fabulous speakers,but I'm amazed that I know someone who is clueless as to just how "great" his set-up is,and constantly "needs" reinforcement that "it is"!...I hope he reads this,and he'll probably miss my whole point,and get mad at me for the post.
Why?...because there are some folks who value "Branding" and "Names",over what is going on in their audio rooms!They don't stop to listen.
If it sounds good,shouldn't it "be" good?Do we need a certain number of hobbyists or press to tell us this is so?
Also,if it stinks,you should know it too,without someone telling you!
Most importantly,has the industry gotten "so" good at marketing, that some superb products can be "under-appreciated" in a "short period of time"(alot more common than we think),as the newer unit now supplants the older one?
"Yesterdays news"?...I would not be surprised to see the "wonderful" Mini go a little "South" once TAD introduces "their" own take on the Minimonitor(which should be superb),this fall/winter...from what I have been told.
It will take "nothing" away from the Mini,but watch the sudden shift,and remember how fickle some are,as to "if it's good,it's good"!....Check out Audiogon's used speaker dept at the time,for a "deal on used Minis"!
Especially when our most popular reviewers wax on about the latest "must buy product"(there's zillions of 'em)!!
Which is a "certainty"....more-so than Big Brown was!!
Best.
|
Maybe I am not the only one who feels this way. In Critics corner on audioasylum is a long thread started by a respected audio designer. |
Be careful...Magico has the worst customer service and did not want to service an older model nor answer any questions regarding this model. Alon was arrogant, rude, and dismissive -- quite amazing actually. I am speaking from personal experience and I am not the only one. |
Do not know when and how you compared the two speakers. As usual, we rush to form an opinion. I would have to disagree with your conclusion. And I should know, I have them both (My original Mini was finally upgraded about 2 months ago). In the same environment, properly set up, you may feel differently as well. Again, both are wonderful but if I had to choose, it will be the V3. You give up some but you gain a lot. BTW, the V3 foot print is actually smaller then the Mini. You are right about two things though, the Mini BIG sound and their spherical imaging are a real shockers. These two loudspeakers, are in a league of their own. You will do fine with either one. |
I have heard both the MINI and the fine V3.I like the V3,but believe the Mini does a better disappearing act.Less pretentious,is how I hear them.
They sound more coherent and the presentation seems to emanate from a more ideal sphere(point source).
The "BIG" deal about the Mini,to me,is that it can go "BIG",and from a fairly "SMALL" package.This is a great thing for many city dwellers,who still want real high end dynamics,and powerful sound,but have limited space.
Also,like me in the not too distant future,if you are going from a home with a good size dedicated room(with a fairly large floorstander,that you hate to give up)to a smaller condo,the MINI will give up very little!
"THAT" is a real benefit,and a strong selling point!
The V3 certainly does not have the gorgeous appearance that the Mini has,and it is not made to the same level,in cabinetry....The Mini does not seem to give up much in the low freq compared to the V3,"if" set up well!
I like the Mini "much" more,and think it "is", and "sounds more special" than the V3,but both are superb products.
Btw,I have heard(at length,and many times)the Mini at "EBM's" home....His previous speaker was a superb Kharma.The Mini is a far better match to both his room,and equipment....It really is an impressive set-up!!...By any standard!!
The funny thing is.....that there are a few local hobyists that have also heard EBM's system,but cannot accept the high level of sound such a "relatively small" speaker can produce.These guys have HUGE multi way speakers,that take up "GOBS" of space!....It seems the psychology of the situation has caused rather severe criticism of EBM's system,which is laughable to me,but not too funny to EBM!!The guy spent alot of money,and has superb stuff.
It's nice when credit is given,when well deserved. -:)
Best. |
I think we went about it already. Yes, the Mini has its pluses but, for my money, the V3 covers more ground and has the best bass money can buy. They are also more efficient, and IMO, more transparent. There is a lot to say for a dedicated pure midrange. BTW, the Mundorf posts on the V3 are much better than then Cardas posts on the Mini (Not sure where you got the Edison posts idea) . Having said all that, I would/am be happy with either one. |
V3 is a great speaker however mini 2 has better cabinet better parts in crossover and overall a more natural sound it also has custom edison music posts v3 does not. These are 2 of the best speaker out there regardless of the stereophile aricle mini 2 got to stereo sound awards in Japan. |
Honestly I haven't heard any Magico loudspeakers, so what I write is purely hypothetical.Besides the drivers ( lots of new drivers come into existence annually) , everything else is normal loudspeaker technology taken to the ultimate execution possible at a given price point, with good aethetics and domestically acceptable size. Hence I would use the term evolutionary.
What I find painful is that companies like Overkill Audio, which take an end to end approach with meticulous execution, get no press coverage from large mainstream audio magazines. I guess advertisments decide the sound quality. Hence whenever I recommend anything on this forum, it is never mainstream, and it usually comes from a manufacturer who makes a damn good product. |
I think the review was very positive, but subdued in the usual JA way (one problem with multiple reviewers in one mag).
look at the positives:
Magico's vibration measurements were so low he didn't bother to publish (got other speakers to review after all).
The bass quality and quality were outstanding (compare 20hz response to the 2x more expensive Wilson Maxx)
As for revolutionary, I think the number of true high end manufacturers building their own drivers can be counted on one hand. And I know of no other manufacturers designing crossovers in a virtual environment. And nobody I know of is pursuing cost no object designs with an open slate resulting in products like the Ultimate. |
Have a look at http://www.stereoplay.de/. It seems like they do post, eventually, some of their reviews online. |
DHaan-Would love to see that review. Will it be on line anywhere? |
The floorstander is worth 10-12k tops IMO...
If the cabinet was constructed in the same manner as the mini then MAYBE the asking price would be justifiable??? |
You are right on the money. We need some excitement in this hobby ASAP . BTW, SP and TAS are not alone. I just came back from Germany where, to my surprise, a review of the V3 in May Stereoplay issue was available at the airport magazine shop. My German is a bit weak but I could tell few things. Unlike the US politically correct magazines the Germans actually grade products. The V3 score is the highs score they have ever given to any loudspeaker! The article, which includes measurements, declare the V3 as a new reference. One of the most interesting thing about the speakers was the constant low distortion ratio vs. freq. measurements at different volume level. The V3 maintained the same low distortion % level, without any change in freq. response all the way from 85 to 100 db SPL. To me that is probably the most telling measurements you can have on a loudspeaker (To bad SP does not perform it). |
Wow reading some of these responses makes me wonder. Is the Magico V3 the new Wilson WP? You know the speaker everyone "hates" but everyone want to build one like it? My point is if you don't like the speaker fine, buy something else. This is why there are tons of speaker companies. There isn't one speaker for everyone. I agree with Dhaan, trashing the speaker is crazy. We could go on and on trashing gear we don't like. But what will that solve? Do I think the Magico are revolutionary, I don't know because I have never heard them. I do like all the buzz they are getting because this is what this hobby needs. We need something to come along and stir all of us up. Now if we could just get "normal" people to have this kind of passion. But that is another thread. |
I listened to these and was underwhelmed--poor price to performance. I like the new floorstanding KEF and Pioneer speakers--at a third the price. Don't know the production problems detailed above--demoed the TADs at the Pioneer store at South Coast Plaza mall in Orange County and was impressed at their smooth mid-range sound and crystal clear sonics. I listened to the new KEFs side by side next to the Magico and thought they ran rings around them. I would pocket cash in a minute. |
Shadorne - A bit more then just the finish I am afraid. I had 2 pairs
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wondering if any one here has ever compared the B&W 800d's to the Magico V3's? or has anyone here listen to and/or seen the magico 6's? considering a move at some point from the 800d's nothing deff but thinking about it. |
i think the term 'revolutionary' is a poor choice of words. 'unique' or 'different' would have been more accurate, but doesn't sound as 'revolutionary'. |
The TAD-M1 had issues with the finish. The cabinets were fine. It was the laminations that would expand differently with humidity giving an uneven appearance. This was an aesthetic issue but an important one given their price. |
Roypan...."Respectfully",I could not disagree with you more!The new TADs are the superior of the old one,from my own set of tastes,and those I know who heard them.
Yes,I know all about the difficulty of making the orig cabinets,and the orig cost being too low,but the new design really "shines".If it sounds good to me,it sounds good.Period!-:)
Also,the business of the "cracking in cabinets"....This I never heard about(in ANY speaker,over my forty years in the hobby).Are you speaking from experience,where you know "many" of the cabinets have suffered from this(through production,not shipping)?A fact regarding "many",or a rumor?
BTW,I am not trying to be condescending,just stating my own views.
Best. |
Everything relates to sound (vibrations)!
So typical, in audio, everyone is an expert... |
"There are good reasons why airplane wings are made of Aluminum and not MDF."
And none of them relates to sound! |
Sirspeedy - TAD is actually a great example how a similar design losses its magic once cabinet material is changed. The M1, which was constructed like the Mini, was a fabulous speaker. Unfortunately Pioneer, could not control the cracking on these cabinets. They also, I am sure, realized they priced them way too low. The replacement, the R1 are more expensive, built to a much lesser standards, and, unfortunately, IMO, a pale shadow sonically to the M1. It is not possible to build a world class speaker from MDF. Mainly due to low modulus of elasticity (MOE). MDF is simply not stiff enough, and therefore over damped for a proper bass enclosure. Even the most talented engineer cannot change MDF low MOE. There are good reasons why airplane wings are made of Aluminum and not MDF. |
