Hiho,
Lots of ways to do a plinth. I visited Mike about the time Steve delivered the plinth you linked to. Mike himself will tell you that these rebuilt tables will "play with the big boys" and his reference is the Rockport Sirius.
I like Steve's design and others as well. I agree the triangle design posted to that thread is unique, that's why we audiophiles get involved and do these things. |
Yes, Albert, getting involved is one of the major fun of this hobby instead of always being lead by the nose by magazines and the so called experts. Glad to know the SP10 is in the "big boys league" instead of the doghouse.
By taking the motor out of the stock chassis really fires up the imagination, the sky is the limit. And this way the plinth plays an even more important role than before. Glad people are giving new life (and love) to these classic direct-drive turntables as the DD genre was getting very little press time for two decades.
I hope I will get to do that kind of plinth soon. Can't wait to see your new version in the future! :-)
By the way, for those on a smaller budget the SL1300/1400/1500mk2 series, which is essentially an SP15 with tonearm, is also perfect for this kind of treatment.
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Hiho, Are you saying that for the SP10 MKII you just lengthen the wires from the chassis-bound electronics to the motor, when you install the motor only into a dedicated plinth? How long are the leads between the motor and its electronics when you get done with this mod? If it works, I am all for it. I just wonder whether it is dramatically better than just installing the whole assembly in a big piece of slate, as I and others have done. This says nothing about Mike Lavigne's MkIII set-up, of course. Despite what I wrote, I am tempted to try this with my second MkII, but I would also re-install the electronics into a cosmetically nice chassis. Six inches diameter for both the MkII and the MkIII? |
The stock 12-strand wires come out of the motor assembly to the connector is about 8" long. I would extend the wires by at least three feet. I have three SP10's so I plan to do this soon. The important thing is that in the stock form, the motor is bolted to an 1/8" cast aluminum and the motor just hangs there. Now, imagine the motor mount directly to a thick slab of slate or wood or whatever material you like to use, don't you think that's better than the stock form? If you use the stock chassis, I don't care how wonderful your plinth will be your motor is still bolted to a thin sheet of aluminum hanging there. Just spend the time one day and carefully take the motor out of the stock chassis and then examine it yourself and you will know exactly what I am talking about. It's not rocket science. Almost ALL direct-drive can be improved this way. And for whatever reason, if you don't like the sound, just put it back to stock form - it's all reversible. The reason I haven't done it sooner is that I don't have the tools to cut slate! I would suggest keeping the stock chassis to house all the electronics because everything is all there with the buttons and switches, why re-invent the wheel? Unless it's an aesthetic issue and you just want to play around, go right ahead!
I plan to have two SP10 set up this way so I can have one tape-driving the other platter so it can be used as direct-drive and belt-drive. Fun!
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I fully agree that nearly all production dd tables can be improved by improving their plinths. And I take your point about the suspension of the motor in the SP10. Albert addresses this issue by supporting the motor/bearing assembly via a brass rod that is imbedded in a dense metal block. I am using Albert's support system underneath my slate plinth. What do you do about the on/off switch when you take the electronics away? Also, can you answer my question; is a 6-inch diameter hole correct? I have a remaining blank slate plinth, a company with a waterjet machine, and a second MkII, so I may try it too.
By the way, how do you get a belt around the SP10 platter in order to use it to drive a second platter? The SP10 platter has a beveled edge. |
You do NOT have to take the electronics away. You are doing absolutely NOTHING to the electronics nor the switches. The motor is mounted to the stock chassis and there is a bundle of 12 wires soldered to a 12-pin connector connected to one of the circuit boards. All you're doing is to extend the wires by a few feet and mount the motor to something more solid like a slate, plywood, or butcher block or whatever. The stock chassis is acting as housing for the electronics and switches, so for the Start/Stop and speed change functions you still need to use stock chassis.
Apparently you never removed the platter out of the SP10. The platter has about 1/4" flat area below the beveled edge. If I install two SP10 motors outside of the stock chassis then I can have one platter driving the next one without any speed adjustment because they are one to one ratio in diameter and I will use 1/4" magnetic tape, something thin to have no effect on speed. I have done this experiment with two Pioneer turntables before and I prefer the sound in this arrangement than in DD mode. But DD is usually a little more dynamic though. If I have the budget when I win the lottery, I would use a SP10mk3 to tape-drive a Micro-Seiki platter, since the Mk3 has speed adjustment.
Here are some pictures from a Japanese website applying the Kaneta mod so ignore the DIY electronics but the images give you a better idea of the motor and chassis.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/~mhitaste/audiotop/audio_apparatus_page/sp-10mk2.html
The cut out hole can be between 5-7/8" to 6".
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FWIW, I have removed and replaced the platters from two different SP10s, a MkII and a Mk2A, in order to lubricate their bearings and in order to replace electrolytic caps in the electonic module. (In medical training the aphorism regarding procedures is "see one, do one, teach one".) I simply forgot about the flat area on the edge of the platter because it is not visible when the tt is put back together. However, as I recall, it is pretty narrow with no ridges to prevent a belt or tape from wandering off course. But if it works for you, that's all that counts.
I know all about the Kaneta modification, but he re-designed the electronics (as far as I can tell without being able to read any of the Japanese text), so his work is (probably) not relevant to the question of whether lengthening the leads will negatively affect function of the stock servo mechanism. Again, if it works for you, then I may be wrong to worry about it.
So I now finally get the picture that you use the stock chassis intact as a housing for the electronics that don't go into the plinth. Do you do anything cosmetically to cover the hole left by the motor/platter et al?
Thanks for the idea. |
I plan to have no cosmetic embellishment. I like everything exposed, or naked if you will. :-) Not having a spouse helps. But if that's an aesthetic issue for some people, I understand. I am the kind of audiophile who ALWAYS loses the screws on an amp or preamp because I am always tinkering with the inside, such as changing caps, tubes, etc,... so the covers are always off.
I like things neat and organize just like next guy but I just can't sit still for too long so I always end up messing up the sound. LOL. However, when listening to music I am like a zen master, completely immerse myself into it, even AM radio. I guess there's a difference between listening to music and listening to sound. The day when sound and music become indistinguishable then that's the day I stop messing around with gears.
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Dear Lewm/Hiho: I agree with you that the DD stock DD plinths degrade its quality performance and I'm still " against " any plinth with the SP-10s.
I'm still using one of my SP-10s ( with out electronic mods. )with out plinth and tonearm mounted in a stand alone tonearm-tower ( I don't either " buy " the statement that the tonearm/TT has to be in the same " house ", the ears tell me I don't have to worry about: huge improvement. ).
As I posted I hear/heard several Sp-10s configurations in several different audio systems, including at least two-three SP-10s of the people that posted in this thread.
IMHO no one of those SP-10s can even the quality performance of a " naked " Sp-10.
I like all those plinths ( especially the SD ones. ) that are just beautiful but if you don't care about how that/your TT looks and cares how to achieve the top quality performance you can/could achieve with the Sp-10s ( and other great DD out there. ) my advise is to try the full " naked " alternative ( you can always return to your today TT configuration. ).
IMHO I think that is worth to try it, at the " end of the day " why everyone already work on all those SP-10 mods ( electronics, mats, plinths, cables, etc, etc. )?, I understand that is to improve its quality performance: well what I'm saying is that after all those SP-10 mods there is more " land " to explore in favor of better quality performance ( TT neutrality. ).
Anyway I think that this thread and its posts are saying to today TT designers/builders that they have to have better products in the near future because all those vintage TT's are in many ways even better than today TT designs.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul, do you use any footers for the "naked" SP10 or you just let its bottom cover or belly acting as support?
Any picture you can show us?
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Dear Raul, You were once kind enough to post photos of your SP10 with "no plinth". As I recall it does sit in a piece of plywood, but it is supported underneath the chassis by some Audio Technica or similar compliant "feet". I always thought that this was the key to your satisfaction with that setup, rather than absence of a plinth per se. As for mounting the arm on a pod that is totally outboard from the chassis and not physically associated with it, I do think that is a bad idea. But to each his own; certainly a few tt-makers now do it that way too, altho I know of no vintage tts designed that way. In your earlier photos I got the impression that your tonearm is mounted on the plywood that also is forming a surround for your SP10, thereby creating a coupling of sorts between the two. I thought that was OK. Anyway, we can argue theory all day long. As you suggest, the proof of the pudding is in the listening. I still like slate; I think it's uniquely suited to this endeavor. I think slate is way better than some of the materials that have traditionally been used, e.g., wood, marble, granite. |
As I posted I hear/heard several Sp-10s configurations in several different audio systems, including at least two-three SP-10s of the people that posted in this thread.
IMHO no one of those SP-10s can even the quality performance of a " naked " Sp-10. Raul, this is why I get upset with you, making a comment like that with absolutely no foundation. It's obvious the comparison was aimed at my system and Steve Dobbins system since you were a guest at both of our homes. How anyone can audition a system with everything different than yours, speakers, amps, cables, cartridge, room treatments and all the other variable. Add in the fact you traveled from another country, had a few hours to listen and without your own version or "mod" of the table is beyond me. I've ask your advice on moving magnet cartridges since you have so much experience with them but when you post something so off the wall as you have, I begin to question your test methods and the validity of your opinion. Based on what you've posted it appears Hiho is wrong, Kaneta is wrong, Steve Dobbins is wrong, Mike Lavigne is wrong and I'm wrong. Reminds me of Jimmy Durante dancing with the Radio City Rockettes when he looks into the crowd and says "What do you know, they're all out of step but me." |
Dear Lewm: There is no more plywood ( that was used to mount the tonearm but not anymore. ) and the AT footers are still there supporting the TT.
Now, what I'm saying is only that any one of you could try the " naked " alternative ( I know a " ugly " look but.... ) you don't lose almost nothing because you can go back of what you have today.
Anyway, I don't want to start any controversy about: it is only try it or not, you always are the best judge on your system performance.
Regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Dear Hiho: I'm using the Audio Technica At-616 ( pneumatic. ), threee of them.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Albert: Like I say I don't want to argue about but you can be totally sure that I have answers to your questions/dude, one of that answers is that my audio system perception habilities/skills/tools are different from yours: I can make/hear things that you can't imagine and not because I'm something " special " NO it is only that my audio self " training " through many years ( this is a discipline by it self. ) give me that kind of shiklls like I'm sure you have skills on many other audio " areas " that I don't.
Now, I'm not saying that you or any one is wrong I'm saying just: try it and if you don't like it then come back where you are today, is so difficult to understand this?.
I'm only sharing with you an opportunity to improve ( or not ) what you have now: is it a " crime " to share my experiences about?, you have a dedicated thread on the SP-10 subject where you are doing the same: sharing experiences.
Now, maybe you don't want to try it: that is fine not all people likes to take the effort to " explore " alternatives but like with the MM/MI subject there are people that likes to " discover " what is all about.
Albert I'm a person that does not like to have to many " holes " in my audio knowledge so if I can " sealed " some of those ( many ) holes " exploring " about then I will do it.
IMHO I think is worth to try it.
I respect your opinion about the " validity " of my comments where there is a difference with your comment: I already try /hear/herad the naked alternative ( like the no-naked ones. )and you don't.
The " validity " of any one experiences are a very controversial subject but there are some cases where that " validity " is more easy to confront/appear, example: at least two person in this thread ( you are one of them ) make statements/comparison of two different TT's ( same cartridge and same system. ) where the tonearm was different for that comparisons: which is the " validity " of those comparisons? , IMHO almost no real/precise " validity " here due to that " heavy " difference in tonearm in each TT.
Could/can this means that both of you lose the " validity " on your opinions?, certainly not: the " validity " of each one opinion is a more in deep subject that that kind of " faulty " opinion/TT-comparison.
Please don't be up-set with what I post/posted elsewhere, you can be sure that that never is my attitude.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
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Skills to pay the bills! That's what I'm talking about! do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight. Shioot 8^).
Anyhow enough silliness I have a sp10 mkII in the buff just hanging out, I guess I'll fire it up and see. It is slated for slate so it will be a nice comparison...that deserves another 8^) |
Here's the thing. If you fire up your SP10 MkII while it is just sitting naked on a shelf, you will see that IT will "do a little dance" (altho I never saw one make a little love). It does a little dance because of Newton's 3rd Law of Motion, and because of the high torque generated at start up for which force there is an "equal and opposite" reaction, as Newton told us. The job of the plinth is to soak up that force and stabilize the system. After start-up, the torque needed to keep the speed stable will be much less, so Raul could argue that a high-mass plinth is not needed once the correct speed is attained. However, I think a well built plinth dissipates vibrational energy that can otherwise color the sound. However, there's no harm in trying Raul's idea. |
I actually tried the naked approach before, about more than 10 years ago. I had a small piece of 3/4" particle board attached to the upper right hand corner of the stock chassis acting as a cantilevered armboard and that's it. The turntable was just sitting on the table by its belly with four stock small rubber pucks. It was pretty naked, think of a naked person wearing a right hand glove. I had an MMT arm at the time, I think.
It didn't sound all that hot because I remember later on the same arm was mounted on a McCurdy radio station metal frame type of plinth and sounded better than the previous set up. And my custom butcher block plinth also sounded better than the naked approach but I had a different arm so that comparison is probably not valid. I guess I can always try it again with a different tonearm, like one of my Audiocraft arms.
All I am saying is that I am not convinced no plinth is better than having plinth. Just from a pure physics stand point, the SP10 has so much damn torque that you would think you really need something massive to hold down the turntable to sink all that vibration. Didn't Mark Kelly tell us that Sansui experimented something like this about that return torque that's causing the turntable cabinet to color the sound? From my experience with the naked approach, the set up did have that typical Technics clinical sound so I would imagine having a massive plinth is the right approach to high torque DD turntable like the SP10. I am not sold on your approach but, hey, if it works for you, great, because that certainly saved you ton of money on plinth. But before I try the naked plinth thing again, I can't wait to mount the naked motor to a slab of slate!
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Dear Albert: +++++ " making a comment like that with absolutely no foundation. " +++++
+++++ " How anyone can audition a system with everything..........and without your own version or "mod" of the table is beyond me. " +++++
+++++ " but when you post something so off the wall as you have, I begin to question your test methods .." +++++
I receive several emails on the subject since your post with different flavor opinions and I need to clarify on the subject trying to put a little more light on this " controversy ":
like I posted each one of us have ( sometimes ) similar, different and especial skills on " audio culture " ( each one audio learning curve ) where some of those especial differences comes on each one because we each one choose to " cultivate " in especial some audio areas that are more interesting to each one of us.
Well, I want to write some experiences ( even one that you live with me ) to show the skills I'm talking about:
been in San Diego with a very nice audio friends we were hearing differents Phonolinepreamps ( in at least two different audio systems. ) between them the Dartzeel and Esential 3160.
In a specific time/moment we take each one opinion on the quality performance of those Phonolinepreamps and I remember what I say on the Dartzeel : that both frequency extremes were not natural but manipulated on purpose to give the Dartzeel signature sound, this was/happen 3-4 months before the Dartzeel review on Stereophile where I confirm ( by the product measurements. ) exactly/precise what 3-4 months before was my opinion on what I heard in the Dartzeel that was surrounded ( in SD. ) of " unknow " audio items to me and where I was traveling around USA.
We discuss for hours our each one finding on what we heard there and I can say that we have very good time in that unforgetable friend's meeting.
in other trip in USA I visit to Steve Doobins and for that days I don't have almost no reference/know-how on the strain gauge cartridge/system that he own so I was not prepared of what I shall hear there.
My reaction was very fast: impressive just at the begining but after a few minutes and especialy on the highs and tonal balance I say Steve that I don't like it and I tell him that I think that the " trouble " for me was not on the cartridge but on the cartridge electronics.
Months latter of this strain gauge experience I learn almost all on that cartridge and again confirm what I heard and what I say to SD that time, that was IMHO a faulty design.
other sample of this kind of skills you live it with me in your audio system last time I was there.
you put me first music through CDP and 30-40 minutes latter switch to your analog rig ( cartridge: PC-1 ) and you remember that after few minutes I ask for a change the load impedance ( that was around 500 and change it to around 100 ohms. ) because what I was hearing was not so good, things improve with that load impedance change.
Latter ( 10 minutes more ) I told you that something was wrong with the system because the right output level on the speaker system was lower than the left side, you check that the volume be in the right way in the preamp and heard again and confirm that the output on thr right side was lower through analog because on digital everything was right on target.
Not only you was hearing the system with out take in count this " problem " but ( in the afternoon ) six of your member group either take in count ( I check that the volume in your preamp where even/similar position. ).
In other place with a different system I made a comment to the audio system owner: Sir you have bad bass resonances here and he told me that no one ever of his audio friends ( including audio dealers ) never told him any comment on this problem that now and after my comment he take in count, I have to say that this audio system is in a dedicated room with 200K+ on audio equipment.
All these samples/experiences/comments can tell you that I'm training in deep for make that kind of " work ", this skill does not comes by free or random it is a hard and time consuming training over the years. Am I prefect on this regard? certainly not ( far from there ) but this learning skill is what give me the knowledge/kno-how to evaluate my audio system quality performance and through many changes on it discern what is a real improvment change and what was only a different only.
This skill is something that any one can develop, I'm still in this learning curve.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
the SP10 has so much damn torque that you would think you really need something massive to hold down the turntable to sink all that vibration. Didn't Mark Kelly tell us that Sansui experimented something like this about that return torque that's causing the turntable cabinet to color the sound? Absolutely I agree that if Raul or anyone else prefers the sound of "naked," that's fine, but chassis rotation in response to motor correction is precisely what I'm hoping to eliminate. The only question for me is how far you must go before no more improvement can be had. On my MK2 Wenge plinth and my MK3 Ebony I experimented with various isolation feet and the roller types low friction overcame the plinth mass and allowed the chassis to respond to the energy, making for the analog version of "digital jitter." This convinced me that the chassis must not move, even microscopically. The only two options I've found that achieve this and still provide "isolation foot improvement" is (1) Still Point system with threaded riser, (2) A military sheet material I've been experimenting with some months. This military material has incredibly high sheer strength in the horizontal plane but compresses in the vertical plane absorbing bass energy relative to it's thickness and the mass (total weight) applied. Fortunately I found some an engineer on the project that had specifications for load and thickness and this has made experimenting a more fruitful venture. |
Dear Sp-10s: I think that everyone of you are realy satisfied with your own SP-10 mods aside the fun to do it by your self.
I already posted on other threads that as important as is the electronics, naked or non-naked, suspension, etc, etc, IMHO and for every single TT ( any ) the main and critical factor for it can show at its best ( neutrality ) is the build material on platter ( certainly the build material is important everywhere. ) if like Albert say:
+++++ " is how far you must go before no more improvement can be had. " +++++
my advise is to " explore " that platter build material. Btw, very complex subject for say the least.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
I for one would not dream of modifying my SP-10 mkII in any way. Got it "new in box" so its a bit of a gem. I enjoy it as it is. Excellent machine even with mediocre ancillaries (blush blush). |
Lonestarsouth,
The Technics MK2 is an incredible machine. I didn't believe it until I owned one. |
Albert, a while ago I got Janis Ian's "Live: Working without a net" and on that cd there is the track "Tattoo" as featured on the marvelous "Breaking Silence" LP.
I was stunned all over again at how the LP version, played back on the SP-10 mkII, trounces the CD version in the PRaT dept. Okay, lets face it, I dont own a great cd player but still. |
One of the most amazing thing about the SP10mk2 is in the bass dynamic, its tightness and focus. NOTHING I heard in any turntable genre has this kind of bass energy and transient. The idler drive tables might have the big tone and expansiveness in the bass but the SP10 has this quality that I called "jump factor".
Play a punk record by, say, The Clash version of "Police and Thief" in the opening drum solo and you will know what I mean. The bass just jump right out with that tightness and sharp focus that can pin you to the wall, exactly how a great sounding punk record should be. Spin some speed metal such as Slayer and you feel your blood is boiling. Play a record of acoustic bass by, say, Charlie Haden's "Closeness" with Alice Coltrane and you will hear the delicacy of his plucking and tunefulness and its deep richness. Play a chaotic sounding record such as European avant-jazz group Schlippenbach trio's "Pakistani Pomade" and the SP10 can still keep its composure by separating all the individual instrumental lines amidst all the maelstrom and the drum work can make you feel exhilarated. And when I'm done listening to the SP10, I feel exhausted in the best sense because I just engaged in the music in a visceral way like no other. It pulls you into the music and it's just that simple.
When it comes to the bass, the SP10 reign supreme, for my money.
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Play a record of acoustic bass by, say, Charlie Haden's "Closeness" with Alice Coltrane and you will hear the delicacy of his plucking and tunefulness and its deep richness. Couldn't agree more with your assessment of bass performance with SP10MK2 and MK3 and remarkable you mention one of my all time reference LPs. I don't think another post at Audiogon ever mentioned "Closeness." If you don't already have it, the other Charlie Haden that has the same effect on me is "The Golden Number," Duets with Don Cherry Ornette Coleman, Hampton Hawes and Archie Shep. Truly great stuff, Horizon 26 by A&M. |
Had a similar experience this weekend with my Denon DP80 in slate with a Triplanar/Colibri. A friend brought over an LP of Ray Brown playing with Laurindo Almeida. The first cut is "'Round Midnight". Almeida plays a little solo verse, and then Brown comes in with a really low bass strike on his bass. We both nearly jumped off my sofa. We didn't listen to it on the SP10/slate, but I bet the effect would have been similar. Once they are mounted in the same type of plinth, and if that plinth is effective, the DP80 and the SP10 sound quite similar, based on my several hours of comparative listening. Both give a big sound with tremendous "jump" and rhythm. |
Hi, I am reading all the post with great interest. It is difficult to picture some of what is being offered as I do not own a SP10 mkll or lll. With that said I have been looking to purchase one and I am finding that I just don't have enough knowledge to make an intelligent purchase.
If you folks who already own one could outline the major points to be aware of when looking that would be great.
Also can someone tell me the difference in power supplies, the numbers being SH10b3 and SH10EA.
Thanks
Richard |
I may chime in here and agree with the bass dynamics and jump factor of good DD tables.
I just recently bought a 30 year old Exclusive P10. Coupled with a Koetsu Rosewood it has better bass dynamics and drive than my TW Raven AC-3/Phantom/ dyna XV-1.
very impressive indeed. |
Rnadelman,
The SH-10B3 is the standard obsidian plinth for the SP-10Mk2, and it also works on the SP-10Mk3. The SH-10EA is the standard power supply for the SP-10Mk2. The power supply for the SP-10Mk3 is a different beast. The two are not interchangeable. Theoretically, the various plinths (SH-10B3, SH-10B5, and SH-10B7) are interchangeable across the SP01-Mk2, SP-10Mk2A, and SP-10Mk3.
Other than that, I recommend you read Albertporter's system thread regarding the SP-10Mk3 Project. There is a lot of useful info there. |
"The Golden Number" by Charlie Haden is sublime. He is one of my favorite bassists, along with Mingus, Garry Peacock, Barry Guy, et al. Let's not forget those Ornette Coleman records from Atlantic in the 60's he participated. But the recordings he did with Horizon are outstanding. Speaking of bassist, another favorite record on the SP10 for me is Dave Holland's classic "Conference For the Birds" with amazing drum solo's by Barry Altschul and Holland's bass has a huge tone. It's out there jazz so it may not be everyone's cup of tea but I love it.
The SP10 truly excels on records that exhibit bass with lightning transients and explosiveness. The key to me is that it has absolutely no bass overhang, that nagging feeling the the dynamic notes are microscopically delayed as if something is dragging its feet. And I believe the key word is drag, stylus drag. And the SP10 gives you the sense, with its tremendous torque, that the platter is spinning with complete insistence as if the stylus is plowing through the groove without breaking a sweat and mutters "bring it on". It is this effortlessness in its rotation that leaves many other turntables in the dust. I must say it is much easier to have decent sound on belt-drive turntables than direct-drive and for many people it is good enough and I don't blame them. Why the hassle? If your musical taste is wide ranging, then perhaps only a direct-drive will satisfy you and for many people that is exactly the case. Once you are used to this kind of stability and control it's hard to go back to other genres. Don't get me wrong, I love my belt-drive Empire turntables, another high torque classic, it give me the fluidity of BD and the forcefulness of DD. Alas, it is still not DD, particularly in the bass region for its dynamic range and jump factor. Let's not forget not all DD are "forceful" like the SP10, the classic Sony PS-8750 is one of the few DD turntables that actually sounds like more a belt-drive table, super smooth and fluid, with the stability and digital precision of a DD and without the clinical sound signature DD detractors complain about. I love it.
Spinning record is truly fun and I don't really have a strong preference of one thing over the other. I embrace the fact that we have so many different toys to play with and in a forum like this to share our joyful experiences with others. Let's not forget audio is not a sport, it's still a hobby, have fun! Personally, to me audio is like food. The expensive stuff offers superior and fresher ingredient but it still requires a good recipe and a good chef to make it tasty. Certain food is an acquired taste for certain eaters. Sometimes I want shark fin soup and sometimes I want chili. They all taste good to me. To ask for the absolute sound is like to ask for the absolute food. Let the critics worry about that.
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Rnadelman, Look for a good standard SP10 Mk2 or 2A. (There is some scuttlebutt around that the 2A is less reliable. The excellent person who has serviced both my 2 and my 2A and many of Albert's tables sees no important differences. I think the 2A may use more ICs in its circuit vs discrete transistors.) Try to avoid tables that have been abused at radio stations. Some of these will have oddball power suppies, which is a sign that you are looking at such a beast. Basically, if the table runs at all 3 speeds and does not look beaten to death, you should be good to go, because you should plan on replacing all the (about 20) electrolytic capacitors in the circuit right away. It's not as bad as it sounds; excellent quality modern electrolytics will only cost you $1 or $2 each. I recommend Panasonic FC (for low voltage) and ED (for high voltage) types. It's important to do this, because a leaky electrolytic can take down an irreplaceable IC or transistor. Then you will want to clean and re-lube the bearing, which is no big deal either. A step by step instuction is to be found on the internet.. |
Lewm and guys
Do you think I should re-cap my SP-10 mkII that is "virtually brand new"? |
Lewm and guys
Do you think I should re-cap my SP-10 mkII that is "virtually brand new"? It may be new to you but it's probably 20 years old and those caps are aged and due to fail. Your sound will be better with modern Panasonic FC caps or black gate. Not a lot of money and you can prevent an old cap going and taking out a hard to find part. |
Actually, unless it's a Mk2A, it is at least 30 years old, since date of manufacture. Obviously, I agree with Albert. My Mk2A had been fully serviced by Panasonic/Technics in 1989 and was not used thereafter; it was still in its shipping carton when I bought it. Nevertheless, I did the work noted, or I had it done by a pro. (I serviced the bearing and replaced the caps in the PS myself, then I gave it over to Bill Thalmann, to replace remaining caps in the on-board electronics, check speed, calibrate, etc.) |
I will then look into replacing the capacitors in my SP-10 mkII. I am just scared of damaging the unit in one way or another. |
I wouldn't worry too much unless you already have a problem with it - just leave it on 24/7 for a while. |
Dear Lonestarsouth: +++++ " I for one would not dream of modifying my SP-10 mkII in any way. Got it "new in box" ++++
+++++ " Do you think I should re-cap my SP-10 mkII that is "virtually brand new"? " +++++
this kind of " anger/distress " to change caps and the like in a new SP-10 ( and even in a used unit ) IMHO and with all respect to other SP-10 owners has no real foundation on this specific subject:
+++++ Not a lot of money and you can prevent an old cap going and taking out a hard to find part " ++++, of course that you can do it but there is no sense behind that statement.
I own three of these units and two Denon's ( similar Sp-10 level and with inside caps too!!! ), old units and used for many years and with periods of no use at all.
No one of these units has any single trouble because the caps and not only this but over the years I never read or hear/know that with hundreds or maybe thousands of these top DD units out there any one has/had a cap that " disolve " in the TT damaged other TT electronic parts.
As I told you: you can do it but IMHO and for that subject that is unnecessary.
That " anger/distress " on the subject seems to me something like this:
" I have two days with my new Nissan Altima but I go to change it tomorrow because with it I could have an " accident "? "
Maybe could be better for you try to improve elsewhere your system to achieve a better audio system quality performance: tonearm, cartridge, tonearm set-up, cartridge set-up, tonearm/cartridge matching, tonearm rewiring, phono stage, tonearm cable, etc, etc
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Never own a SP10mk2A, is this "A" version any better than the regular version spec wise? I know the A version is to take advantage of the advance of IC of its time so the boards are smaller and generate less heat as oppose to all discreet parts. But spec wise, does it offer any improvement or they are essentially the same thing? The question is is the A version an upgrade from the mk2? Any thoughts?
Raul, I think your choice of word of "anger" should be replaced with "anxiety". Don't you think? |
Dear Raul, I hope you are correct, for your own sake. I would argue with your conclusions:
(1) You misunderstand the potential problem. I/we do not say that electrolytic caps will "dissolve" or physically leak damaging fluids into the circuit (although in extreme cases, that can happen too). We are talking about caps that are "leaky" in that they leak DC voltage. The stray DC voltages can have two negative effects. First, DC voltage can alter the operation of the circuit, so the servo mechanism may not work as well as it otherwise can. Second, if the voltage is sufficient in magnitude, it can destroy associated parts, like ICs and transistors that are no longer made.
I should add, Raul, that my Denon DP80 was operating just fine when I bought it, but we found several caps that were leaking DC when we restored it. Measurements taken before and after the replacement of the caps showed that the turntable was performing better after this was done. I don't consider that a waste of money or "anguish".
(2) Electrolytic caps will eventually self-destruct. Just when that will happen is impossible to predict, but 20-30 years of service is pushing the envelope. Moreover, modern electrolytics are way better than those available back in the 70s, so swapping them in can have unexpected benefits in performance.
As I noted, since the caps are so cheap and so easily obtained compared to an IC that just plain does not exist any more, and since the service can be performed by a professional for little more than a couple of hundred dollars or by DIY for much much less, it seems foolish not to take this preventive measure. It's cheaper than most of the alternative upgrades that you mention above. You can do what you want, and so can anyone else. This is just advice, not an imperative. |
(2) Electrolytic caps will eventually self-destruct. Just when that will happen is impossible to predict, but 20-30 years of service is pushing the envelope. Moreover, modern electrolytics are way better than those available back in the 70s, so swapping them in can have unexpected benefits in performance.
As I noted, since the caps are so cheap and so easily obtained compared to an IC that just plain does not exist any more, and since the service can be performed by a professional for little more than a couple of hundred dollars or by DIY for much much less, it seems foolish not to take this preventive measure. I agree emphatically with Lewm and would add that if certain caps fail on Technics MK2 or MK3 during music play, the result can be catastrophic. My MK2 had a cap failure just as I was about to I drop the needle and play some music. The platter was turning fine, but at high speed and in REVERSE. I know this is cool for those that like to "scratch" but a bit risky for me. One of my two Technics SP10 MK3s made perfect music for months and months, when a sudden failure caused the platter to suddenly accelerate to 250 or 300 RPM, I was blessed my Koetsu Coralstone was not in the groove when this happened. My experience is based on four Technics total, two of which had failures that are potentially hundreds of times what new caps cost. As Lew says, it's just advice but I think my experience shows this kind of failure is not out of the question for products this old. The upside is professional upgrades makes these super tables sound better than when they were new and pretty much protect you from these kind of problems. |
Dear Hiho: Yes, that is the word ( my Englisk never be very good. ).
Lewm, anyway those thousands of DD top TTs don't suffer ( that I know ) of that " destroy associated parts " and that is the same not only with TT circuits but with any other audio item and you can " see " thousands of very old audio items ( amps, preamps, crossovers, tunners, decks, etc, etc. ) that are working in good conditions: I own some this very old audio items that works right on target.
Anyway, this does not have to be a controversial endless subject, as you posted:
+++" You can do what you want, and so can anyone else. This is just advice. " ++++
just like me: only an advice and certainly not an imperative.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Albert: When I was writing my last post you was posting yours because I don't read it.
Like I posted I don't want to " build a son " ( this is how we say it in México. ) with that subject but I must add that " two birds/butterfly don't announce/makes Spring time ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Like I posted I don't want to " build a son " ( this is how we say it in México. ) with that subject but I must add that " two birds/butterfly don't announce/makes Spring time ". Do you also drive without seat belts because you've not had an accident this year? Precaution is the domain of sensible thinking. Why don't you type Technics speed problem in Google search and read countless pages on the internet about speed problems due to caps and IC failures. The IC problems are frequently due to a cap failure and some of the ICs are NOT AVAILABLE anywhere at ANY price. A Technics MK3 typically goes for a minimum of $4500.00 and as high as $10,000.00. If you loose the control chip due to bad cap it makes for a pretty expensive paper weight. I'll offer the part number and telephone number of my tech if you still think I'm kidding. Short answer, the internet is filled with similar birds and butterflies, spring is here and it must have been a spring several years ago, judging from the dates on some of these posts. |
FWIW, I have had a DP75M have a cap problem, causing it to spin fast, and my Exclusive P3 I bought with a problem in what the tech calls the "torque attenuation circuit" (a control circuit, where something went out of whack and caused the table to spin up immediately to 300rpm or something similar, and then start going higher). I knew that could be fixed so got mine cheap-ish.
I know of many top DD TTs which have had this problem, and I can get my hands on any number of used DD tables (including lots of Denons) with the attributes of 'not working.' They're relatively cheap...
As for the auto analogy... If I bought a car from 1982 which was NOS (let's imagine it had spent 27 years in a dealer's back room, getting the engine turned over once a week), before I tried to drive it anywhere, I'd want to make sure the parts with naturally deteriorating materials (i.e. rubber parts such as hoses, belts, bushings, etc) were OK, and I would absolutely count on having to replace the tires and align the wheels. |
You're being way too sensible T_bone, next you're going to tell me you should clean your stylus every so often too. |
Dear T_bone: I'm not in the audio commercial business like you so there not pass a " lot " of DD or other audio items through my hands ( right now I have 8, and four BD: MS and Luxman: that have caps too. ) and I don't experienced any trouble with the caps or because the caps.
I own old tunners, preamps tape decks and amps with out single problem about and a " lot " of audio friends with old audio items that with out change in the caps are running well all over the world even many of them never think on the caps subject.
Now, I'm not saying that is not important to make changes in an old audio item but the kind of WARNING ( advise like Lewm say. ) that almost all of you bring here in this and other threads is IMHO exaggerated.
Right now I think ( maybe not ) Lonestarsouth ( with his almost new unit ) is really worry to run and enjoy tonight the TT till he change the caps, this is " terrorism ", well maybe a dramatic word but that's the way many of you posted about.
Just imagine a newbie Agoner on the analog subject that read this dramatic warning. Me like many other people do not care on the subject ( well we care but.. ) because maybe we are a little more calm about.
Anyway, I already posted that I don't want to start a endless controversy on the subject so please be/go in peace about.
I read for months this kind of audio " terrorism " in this caps TT subject and during all this time ( and before ) I still running my old units with out worry about that " critical " change and you know why: because is not so dramatic like you show it, would I change the caps on my TTs? maybe I do it but not on hurry and certainly not worry about at leas not in the dramatic way that you posted.
Albert obviously you have very bad luck with your two units so I understand you are " nervous " .
I think that is better to return on the thread interesting/main subject and leave in peace that caps subject.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
T_bone, I do have an SP10mk2 that spins way too fast, something like 200 or 300 rpm. Is that something I can repair by replacing all the electrolytic caps? Or is that something related to the obsolete chips? I plan to reuse just the motor and platter for a different project but if I can fix the speed problem by replacing caps, then it will be groovy! Yes, I have bought many DD tables cheap due to "not working" but mostly have to do with the arm's automatism so I simply turn them into manual turntables. No big loss, really. Anyway, if you can shed some light on this speed issue (too fast) I would appreciate it.
Since you have experience with Denon turntables, I just want to share this. I used to own an old DP-75 that is before the quartz lock era and it sounded terrible. It was thin and glassy sounding. Just unlistenable so that pretty much turned me off on Denon tables but I am sure the later qartz era stuff is much better. I pretty much abandoned any desire to buy any DD table that is made before 1975. The several pre-1975 DD tables I bought are all terrible sounding and the speed was jerky or have no torque, and they all sound like bad digital, that unpleasant jittery sound. Of course when DD done right, they rock!
Happy listening.
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Hiho,
I am far from an expert on SP10s' problems. I have never had a problem with any of mine whatsoever. Either several years ago when I tried my first, or since then. Albert is probably your best bet as he has direct experience.
As for the DP-75, the DP-75 came after the DP-80, which was launched in 1976, which would have put the DP75 lanch into the very late 70s, or early 1980s. I have not had a speed problem with the one I have used. In fact I find it very speed stable - I thought it had to do with the bi-directional servo technology they had (or that they borrowed from Victor). I find it needs to be on an isolation platform, which tames the 'jitter' I hear. The resident specialist on DP75s/DP80s is probably Rauliruegas. Lewm may also be able to help you - I am sure he learned a fair bit about his when it was redone. |
Oops, sorry the Denon I was talking about was a DP-755, which does not have quartz lock, a much older unit. I gave that to a friend and it's deservedly sitting in storage collecting dust. Sorry for the typo!
I intend to experiment with the faulty SP10 unit anyway, so it's no big deal. Thanks for the response.
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