Dear Albert: When I was writing my last post you was posting yours because I don't read it.
Like I posted I don't want to " build a son " ( this is how we say it in México. ) with that subject but I must add that " two birds/butterfly don't announce/makes Spring time ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Hiho: This Sp-10 comes ( from original owner: not me. ) with a square 1" MDF attached to the SP-10 up square plate where ( right side ) the tonearm is mounted, not very orthodox but works fine.
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear Lewm: Something about the Sp-10 plinth: in the last 10 months I heard at least seven Sp-10s ( MK2/3 ) in different systems and with different plinths with different kind of performances I heard all them with good quality but in no one system heard a SP-10 that performs better that mine ( due to the plinth ) that is almost with no plinth at all.
Mine is not very good looking but is a winner, if like me you are looking for quality performance IMHO maybe you should try with and with out plinth before decide which path to go. Yes, like always is system dependent but I think is worth the effort.
Pryso, by accident I test one of my Sp-10s with and with out strobe and I have to say that I can't detect any difference but this was in my system with that Sp-10. What makes a difference is the mat that you use on it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear John and Shane: About mats I'm testing with the SAEC SS-300, Audio technica AT666, Sota Acrylic, Audioquest, a carbon fibre one and a self propietary/design blend materials one.
I have to say that with all them I have good performance but with our mat design and the vacuum from AT is where I like the best, I'm not finish about because I'm trying not only with different mats but with different clamps too.
There is no picture on the SP-10 set up but it is so easy: three Audio technica pneumatic footers ( AT-616 ) directly at the square metal TT base, that's all.
Btw, in my AS TTs I'm using the same kind of footers with additional metal large tiptoes ( up side down ) that are the one that are directly to the metal plinth on the AS, I test the same configuration on the SP-10 and was awful/bad for the quality performance. I try too with two plinths that I own ( heavy ones ) but IMHO with out plinth is how my SP-10 performs better.
Of course that this is not an " absolute " and that's why I say: try it and be the judge in your own system.
Btw, other than to up-date the caps it is interesting too to change all the internal/external power cable.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Radicalsteve: I dn't doubt on what you posted on the Victor TT-101, I never heard about it but I heard the TT-801 that looks like the Denon DP-80 but with better specs.
Now, for those times the SP-10 was only one of the great DD TT: Denon DP-80/75, Kenwood 770/880/1100, Pionner 70L, Yamaha 2000L, etc, etc.
We are talking on the Sp-10 but some of these TTs are better yet than the SP-10s.
As always IMHO it is not write the last word on TTs: DD, BD or Idler ones, which one is the last word?, very very hard to say because no one is perfect and all of them have its own design advantages and disadvantages too. Of course that the design execution is a critical subject but everything the same it is a very hard and complex " call " for say the least.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Lewm/Hiho: I agree with you that the DD stock DD plinths degrade its quality performance and I'm still " against " any plinth with the SP-10s.
I'm still using one of my SP-10s ( with out electronic mods. )with out plinth and tonearm mounted in a stand alone tonearm-tower ( I don't either " buy " the statement that the tonearm/TT has to be in the same " house ", the ears tell me I don't have to worry about: huge improvement. ).
As I posted I hear/heard several Sp-10s configurations in several different audio systems, including at least two-three SP-10s of the people that posted in this thread.
IMHO no one of those SP-10s can even the quality performance of a " naked " Sp-10.
I like all those plinths ( especially the SD ones. ) that are just beautiful but if you don't care about how that/your TT looks and cares how to achieve the top quality performance you can/could achieve with the Sp-10s ( and other great DD out there. ) my advise is to try the full " naked " alternative ( you can always return to your today TT configuration. ).
IMHO I think that is worth to try it, at the " end of the day " why everyone already work on all those SP-10 mods ( electronics, mats, plinths, cables, etc, etc. )?, I understand that is to improve its quality performance: well what I'm saying is that after all those SP-10 mods there is more " land " to explore in favor of better quality performance ( TT neutrality. ).
Anyway I think that this thread and its posts are saying to today TT designers/builders that they have to have better products in the near future because all those vintage TT's are in many ways even better than today TT designs.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Lewm: There is no more plywood ( that was used to mount the tonearm but not anymore. ) and the AT footers are still there supporting the TT.
Now, what I'm saying is only that any one of you could try the " naked " alternative ( I know a " ugly " look but.... ) you don't lose almost nothing because you can go back of what you have today.
Anyway, I don't want to start any controversy about: it is only try it or not, you always are the best judge on your system performance.
Regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Dear Hiho: I'm using the Audio Technica At-616 ( pneumatic. ), threee of them.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Albert: Like I say I don't want to argue about but you can be totally sure that I have answers to your questions/dude, one of that answers is that my audio system perception habilities/skills/tools are different from yours: I can make/hear things that you can't imagine and not because I'm something " special " NO it is only that my audio self " training " through many years ( this is a discipline by it self. ) give me that kind of shiklls like I'm sure you have skills on many other audio " areas " that I don't.
Now, I'm not saying that you or any one is wrong I'm saying just: try it and if you don't like it then come back where you are today, is so difficult to understand this?.
I'm only sharing with you an opportunity to improve ( or not ) what you have now: is it a " crime " to share my experiences about?, you have a dedicated thread on the SP-10 subject where you are doing the same: sharing experiences.
Now, maybe you don't want to try it: that is fine not all people likes to take the effort to " explore " alternatives but like with the MM/MI subject there are people that likes to " discover " what is all about.
Albert I'm a person that does not like to have to many " holes " in my audio knowledge so if I can " sealed " some of those ( many ) holes " exploring " about then I will do it.
IMHO I think is worth to try it.
I respect your opinion about the " validity " of my comments where there is a difference with your comment: I already try /hear/herad the naked alternative ( like the no-naked ones. )and you don't.
The " validity " of any one experiences are a very controversial subject but there are some cases where that " validity " is more easy to confront/appear, example: at least two person in this thread ( you are one of them ) make statements/comparison of two different TT's ( same cartridge and same system. ) where the tonearm was different for that comparisons: which is the " validity " of those comparisons? , IMHO almost no real/precise " validity " here due to that " heavy " difference in tonearm in each TT.
Could/can this means that both of you lose the " validity " on your opinions?, certainly not: the " validity " of each one opinion is a more in deep subject that that kind of " faulty " opinion/TT-comparison.
Please don't be up-set with what I post/posted elsewhere, you can be sure that that never is my attitude.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
|
Dear Albert: +++++ " making a comment like that with absolutely no foundation. " +++++
+++++ " How anyone can audition a system with everything..........and without your own version or "mod" of the table is beyond me. " +++++
+++++ " but when you post something so off the wall as you have, I begin to question your test methods .." +++++
I receive several emails on the subject since your post with different flavor opinions and I need to clarify on the subject trying to put a little more light on this " controversy ":
like I posted each one of us have ( sometimes ) similar, different and especial skills on " audio culture " ( each one audio learning curve ) where some of those especial differences comes on each one because we each one choose to " cultivate " in especial some audio areas that are more interesting to each one of us.
Well, I want to write some experiences ( even one that you live with me ) to show the skills I'm talking about:
been in San Diego with a very nice audio friends we were hearing differents Phonolinepreamps ( in at least two different audio systems. ) between them the Dartzeel and Esential 3160.
In a specific time/moment we take each one opinion on the quality performance of those Phonolinepreamps and I remember what I say on the Dartzeel : that both frequency extremes were not natural but manipulated on purpose to give the Dartzeel signature sound, this was/happen 3-4 months before the Dartzeel review on Stereophile where I confirm ( by the product measurements. ) exactly/precise what 3-4 months before was my opinion on what I heard in the Dartzeel that was surrounded ( in SD. ) of " unknow " audio items to me and where I was traveling around USA.
We discuss for hours our each one finding on what we heard there and I can say that we have very good time in that unforgetable friend's meeting.
in other trip in USA I visit to Steve Doobins and for that days I don't have almost no reference/know-how on the strain gauge cartridge/system that he own so I was not prepared of what I shall hear there.
My reaction was very fast: impressive just at the begining but after a few minutes and especialy on the highs and tonal balance I say Steve that I don't like it and I tell him that I think that the " trouble " for me was not on the cartridge but on the cartridge electronics.
Months latter of this strain gauge experience I learn almost all on that cartridge and again confirm what I heard and what I say to SD that time, that was IMHO a faulty design.
other sample of this kind of skills you live it with me in your audio system last time I was there.
you put me first music through CDP and 30-40 minutes latter switch to your analog rig ( cartridge: PC-1 ) and you remember that after few minutes I ask for a change the load impedance ( that was around 500 and change it to around 100 ohms. ) because what I was hearing was not so good, things improve with that load impedance change.
Latter ( 10 minutes more ) I told you that something was wrong with the system because the right output level on the speaker system was lower than the left side, you check that the volume be in the right way in the preamp and heard again and confirm that the output on thr right side was lower through analog because on digital everything was right on target.
Not only you was hearing the system with out take in count this " problem " but ( in the afternoon ) six of your member group either take in count ( I check that the volume in your preamp where even/similar position. ).
In other place with a different system I made a comment to the audio system owner: Sir you have bad bass resonances here and he told me that no one ever of his audio friends ( including audio dealers ) never told him any comment on this problem that now and after my comment he take in count, I have to say that this audio system is in a dedicated room with 200K+ on audio equipment.
All these samples/experiences/comments can tell you that I'm training in deep for make that kind of " work ", this skill does not comes by free or random it is a hard and time consuming training over the years. Am I prefect on this regard? certainly not ( far from there ) but this learning skill is what give me the knowledge/kno-how to evaluate my audio system quality performance and through many changes on it discern what is a real improvment change and what was only a different only.
This skill is something that any one can develop, I'm still in this learning curve.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Sp-10s: I think that everyone of you are realy satisfied with your own SP-10 mods aside the fun to do it by your self.
I already posted on other threads that as important as is the electronics, naked or non-naked, suspension, etc, etc, IMHO and for every single TT ( any ) the main and critical factor for it can show at its best ( neutrality ) is the build material on platter ( certainly the build material is important everywhere. ) if like Albert say:
+++++ " is how far you must go before no more improvement can be had. " +++++
my advise is to " explore " that platter build material. Btw, very complex subject for say the least.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Lonestarsouth: +++++ " I for one would not dream of modifying my SP-10 mkII in any way. Got it "new in box" ++++
+++++ " Do you think I should re-cap my SP-10 mkII that is "virtually brand new"? " +++++
this kind of " anger/distress " to change caps and the like in a new SP-10 ( and even in a used unit ) IMHO and with all respect to other SP-10 owners has no real foundation on this specific subject:
+++++ Not a lot of money and you can prevent an old cap going and taking out a hard to find part " ++++, of course that you can do it but there is no sense behind that statement.
I own three of these units and two Denon's ( similar Sp-10 level and with inside caps too!!! ), old units and used for many years and with periods of no use at all.
No one of these units has any single trouble because the caps and not only this but over the years I never read or hear/know that with hundreds or maybe thousands of these top DD units out there any one has/had a cap that " disolve " in the TT damaged other TT electronic parts.
As I told you: you can do it but IMHO and for that subject that is unnecessary.
That " anger/distress " on the subject seems to me something like this:
" I have two days with my new Nissan Altima but I go to change it tomorrow because with it I could have an " accident "? "
Maybe could be better for you try to improve elsewhere your system to achieve a better audio system quality performance: tonearm, cartridge, tonearm set-up, cartridge set-up, tonearm/cartridge matching, tonearm rewiring, phono stage, tonearm cable, etc, etc
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Hiho: Yes, that is the word ( my Englisk never be very good. ).
Lewm, anyway those thousands of DD top TTs don't suffer ( that I know ) of that " destroy associated parts " and that is the same not only with TT circuits but with any other audio item and you can " see " thousands of very old audio items ( amps, preamps, crossovers, tunners, decks, etc, etc. ) that are working in good conditions: I own some this very old audio items that works right on target.
Anyway, this does not have to be a controversial endless subject, as you posted:
+++" You can do what you want, and so can anyone else. This is just advice. " ++++
just like me: only an advice and certainly not an imperative.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear T_bone: I'm not in the audio commercial business like you so there not pass a " lot " of DD or other audio items through my hands ( right now I have 8, and four BD: MS and Luxman: that have caps too. ) and I don't experienced any trouble with the caps or because the caps.
I own old tunners, preamps tape decks and amps with out single problem about and a " lot " of audio friends with old audio items that with out change in the caps are running well all over the world even many of them never think on the caps subject.
Now, I'm not saying that is not important to make changes in an old audio item but the kind of WARNING ( advise like Lewm say. ) that almost all of you bring here in this and other threads is IMHO exaggerated.
Right now I think ( maybe not ) Lonestarsouth ( with his almost new unit ) is really worry to run and enjoy tonight the TT till he change the caps, this is " terrorism ", well maybe a dramatic word but that's the way many of you posted about.
Just imagine a newbie Agoner on the analog subject that read this dramatic warning. Me like many other people do not care on the subject ( well we care but.. ) because maybe we are a little more calm about.
Anyway, I already posted that I don't want to start a endless controversy on the subject so please be/go in peace about.
I read for months this kind of audio " terrorism " in this caps TT subject and during all this time ( and before ) I still running my old units with out worry about that " critical " change and you know why: because is not so dramatic like you show it, would I change the caps on my TTs? maybe I do it but not on hurry and certainly not worry about at leas not in the dramatic way that you posted.
Albert obviously you have very bad luck with your two units so I understand you are " nervous " .
I think that is better to return on the thread interesting/main subject and leave in peace that caps subject.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
