"Also, regarding restoring the deck - I don't think I'm so perfectionist to pay 500 pounds to restore the surface of the deck. I was thinking of something on the order of an auto body place - something where I could tape up everything except the top and side surfaces and have them do a nice job. I know it would be a departure from the original, but this is a second deck - and it wouldn't bother me, as long as it looks good! "
My first SP-10 mkII looked real bad. Scratched and oxidized. I stripped all the parts from the alu chassis and carefully sanded it down. Took it to an auto-body-shop and had it spray-painted in jet black 2K enamel. Looked ultra sleek. If you do it properly it will look great.
BTW - You did get the SP-10 mkII in matt black - they are just very rare. My friend has a black SP-10 mkII. I can send a photo if you like. |
I think all those units really are for voltage.
Re the body shop approach, go for it; it belongs to you. I agree that 500GBP for a re-finish is way too high. That's why I was very fussy about cosmetics when I bought mine. It's quite possible you could find someone to do it well for less money than Vantage Audio. |
OK - so I'll go to Mouser and purchase the replacement caps for the boards. I did a quick count from the replacement parts list in the service manual and it looks like there are about 30 electolytic caps on the boards. One thing I just don't get: the specs for these caps are strange. I'm used to seeing capacitance followed by minimum voltage. Why does the service manual show a variety of units for the spec following the capacitance. I see a number of units, examples include: 50WV,50W, but no 50V. What gives???
Also, regarding restoring the deck - I don't think I'm so perfectionist to pay 500 pounds to restore the surface of the deck. I was thinking of something on the order of an auto body place - something where I could tape up everything except the top and side surfaces and have them do a nice job. I know it would be a departure from the original, but this is a second deck - and it wouldn't bother me, as long as it looks good! |
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I take the position that any modern electrolytic of recent manufacture (and of proper value and voltage) will be fine to use anywhere in the MkII. Ergo, I use Panasonic FC or TS-ED types, depending upon voltage needed. They are cheap and have vanishingly low ESR, compared to anything that was made back in the 70s and 80s. Others might tell you that they can "hear" the differences among electrolytics in this circuit and would therefore use boutique brands of caps. I don't choose to argue that point either way. IMO, the caps on board the main chassis are every bit as critical as the PS caps, and maybe moreso, since they reside in proximity to the ICs and transistors that function in the servo circuit. Getting at them to replace them looks to be not too bad. I am going to give it a try myself.
If I wanted to restore an SP10 cosmetically, I would have it done professionally by an experienced company. Such a one can be found in the UK; I don't know their web address. Google will find it, I think. Unfortunately, their service is not cheap. Fortunately, the workmanship looks excellent. |
Hi All,
I've got 2 mkii's and one chassis ala Albert Porter. I've replaced all the caps in my PS, but none on the table's boards. Relative to the PS, how critical are the caps on these boards? Also, how difficult/easy is it to access these boards, get them out of the chassis, and replace the caps? Finally, how many caps are there on the internal board(s)?
Another unrelated question... my second chassis is pretty darn ugly. If I wanted to give it a facelift, perhaps make it black, what method would you suggest, within the "reasonable cost" category.
Thanks, Peter S. |
I have three SP10mk2 units with five original power supplies, two are bad that needs to be repaired. I can take care of the power supplies and I do have a service manual. Since I have experience in building tube amps and judging by the schematic, it's not that complicated. However, I am certainly no expert when it comes to integrated circuits and chips! The one SP10 with speed issue is definitely in the boards inside the SP10 chassis. Yes, it's a crapshoot. An IC might be blown or it could be a bad cap. I will attempt to fix the extra power supplies first and then move on to the bad speed unit. Fingers crossed. It will take some time as I am in no hurry as I still have two other functional units. But I don't even use them that much because I am quite happy with my other turntables right now. Thank you so much for all the information posted here and I really appreciate the help, which makes this hobby worthwhile.
Happy listening and fixing stuff!
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Hiho, you say you have "a functional power supply" and "two extra bad supplies". Are these all SH-10E(A) original equipment units? Since they seem to be quite rare separate from the tables is why I ask.
If you have anything other than original power supplies, do they supply all three voltages that Lewm identified? |
Hiho, It is quite possible that your speed "error" (if you want to call 200 rpm a mere error) is due to a leaky or deceased electrolytic. The best way to find that out is to replace the lytics with new ones. It really does not matter much what brand you use; all modern lytics will be an upgrade. Panasonic low voltage caps (FC type) are superb and cost a bit less than the ones Albert listed. I would start with the power supply. Disconnect it from the main chassis, turn it on, and measure the DC voltages at its outputs. (You'll need a manual, perhaps.) You should see 140VDC, 32VDC, and 5VDC with very little ripple (less than 1VAC, for example). If the voltages are only slightly off, and if there is acceptable ripple, then the supply is probably not to blame. There are pots inside the PS chassis with which you can re-adjust the DC outputs to conform to the expected values. OTOH, if voltages are way off or if there is significant AC voltage at the outputs, THEN you might change the caps first of all. If you have a cap meter, you can test each cap individually for leakage, or you can empirically change them all, because if they are not detectably bad now, they might soon be. There are only about 8 caps in there. If you can snag a service manual from Vinyl Engine or some other source, you can look up the parts list for the PS and simply order the ones you'll need. I bought my Panasonic caps from Digikey, I think, but there are other vendors, too. There is one high-voltage cap, maybe the 1000uF/80V in Albert's list. I actually used a 2000uF/200V Panasonic TS-ED type, because it exactly fits the clamp. It way outperforms the original. There's no harm in using a higher value in this position, but in other cases it's wise to use the same value in capacitance. The DC voltage rating can be the same as original or higher, but not lower. After you have checked out the PS, then turn your attention to the on-board electronics. This is a crapshoot, because it IS possible that one of the ICs has already blown, in which case you will be searching for it. I think Albert can help you there. |
Yep, that's how fast my faulty SP10 spins! I could have turned that into a lawn mower.
Albert, thanks for the cap info. I used a functional power supply that I know for sure works to connect to the broken SP10 and still had the same problem so I don't think it's a power supply issue. It's something in the SP10 boards.
However, I have two extra bad power supplies that I think I need to recap so your info will come in handy. I copied and pasted it for future reference. Thanks again!
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A Technics table gone rogue... |
09-02-09: Hiho
T_bone, I do have an SP10mk2 that spins way too fast, something like 200 or 300 rpm. Is that something I can repair by replacing all the electrolytic caps? Or is that something related to the obsolete chips? Hiho, with my MK2 it was caps, with my MK3 it was a cap that killed an IC. The most common cap in a Technics MK2 causing speed error is the large vertically mounted electrolytic located directly behind the face plate of the outboard power supply. (Wish we could put images into these posts!) Here is a list of the stock values I replaced in my outboard power supply. There are more under the platter. #.....uF.......VDC (1) 100 .......16 (1) 100 .......16 (1) 1000......16 (1) 100 .......50 (1) 100 .......50 (1) 1000 .....80 (1) 22 .......160 (1) 100 .....160 The following are what replaced the list above. I purchased mine from Mike Percy #.....Brand............uF..........VDC (4) Nichicon ..... 100uf......50V ES (NP) (1) Nichicon .....1000uf......25V ES (NP) (1) Nichicon .....1000uf....100V FV (polar) (1) Black Gate ... 33uf....160V standard polar (1) Black Gate .....100uf....160V standard polar Hope this helps, I would check to be sure Technics did not change values from model to model before ordering. This should be a good start though. |
Oops, sorry the Denon I was talking about was a DP-755, which does not have quartz lock, a much older unit. I gave that to a friend and it's deservedly sitting in storage collecting dust. Sorry for the typo!
I intend to experiment with the faulty SP10 unit anyway, so it's no big deal. Thanks for the response.
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Hiho,
I am far from an expert on SP10s' problems. I have never had a problem with any of mine whatsoever. Either several years ago when I tried my first, or since then. Albert is probably your best bet as he has direct experience.
As for the DP-75, the DP-75 came after the DP-80, which was launched in 1976, which would have put the DP75 lanch into the very late 70s, or early 1980s. I have not had a speed problem with the one I have used. In fact I find it very speed stable - I thought it had to do with the bi-directional servo technology they had (or that they borrowed from Victor). I find it needs to be on an isolation platform, which tames the 'jitter' I hear. The resident specialist on DP75s/DP80s is probably Rauliruegas. Lewm may also be able to help you - I am sure he learned a fair bit about his when it was redone. |
T_bone, I do have an SP10mk2 that spins way too fast, something like 200 or 300 rpm. Is that something I can repair by replacing all the electrolytic caps? Or is that something related to the obsolete chips? I plan to reuse just the motor and platter for a different project but if I can fix the speed problem by replacing caps, then it will be groovy! Yes, I have bought many DD tables cheap due to "not working" but mostly have to do with the arm's automatism so I simply turn them into manual turntables. No big loss, really. Anyway, if you can shed some light on this speed issue (too fast) I would appreciate it.
Since you have experience with Denon turntables, I just want to share this. I used to own an old DP-75 that is before the quartz lock era and it sounded terrible. It was thin and glassy sounding. Just unlistenable so that pretty much turned me off on Denon tables but I am sure the later qartz era stuff is much better. I pretty much abandoned any desire to buy any DD table that is made before 1975. The several pre-1975 DD tables I bought are all terrible sounding and the speed was jerky or have no torque, and they all sound like bad digital, that unpleasant jittery sound. Of course when DD done right, they rock!
Happy listening.
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Dear T_bone: I'm not in the audio commercial business like you so there not pass a " lot " of DD or other audio items through my hands ( right now I have 8, and four BD: MS and Luxman: that have caps too. ) and I don't experienced any trouble with the caps or because the caps.
I own old tunners, preamps tape decks and amps with out single problem about and a " lot " of audio friends with old audio items that with out change in the caps are running well all over the world even many of them never think on the caps subject.
Now, I'm not saying that is not important to make changes in an old audio item but the kind of WARNING ( advise like Lewm say. ) that almost all of you bring here in this and other threads is IMHO exaggerated.
Right now I think ( maybe not ) Lonestarsouth ( with his almost new unit ) is really worry to run and enjoy tonight the TT till he change the caps, this is " terrorism ", well maybe a dramatic word but that's the way many of you posted about.
Just imagine a newbie Agoner on the analog subject that read this dramatic warning. Me like many other people do not care on the subject ( well we care but.. ) because maybe we are a little more calm about.
Anyway, I already posted that I don't want to start a endless controversy on the subject so please be/go in peace about.
I read for months this kind of audio " terrorism " in this caps TT subject and during all this time ( and before ) I still running my old units with out worry about that " critical " change and you know why: because is not so dramatic like you show it, would I change the caps on my TTs? maybe I do it but not on hurry and certainly not worry about at leas not in the dramatic way that you posted.
Albert obviously you have very bad luck with your two units so I understand you are " nervous " .
I think that is better to return on the thread interesting/main subject and leave in peace that caps subject.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
You're being way too sensible T_bone, next you're going to tell me you should clean your stylus every so often too. |
FWIW, I have had a DP75M have a cap problem, causing it to spin fast, and my Exclusive P3 I bought with a problem in what the tech calls the "torque attenuation circuit" (a control circuit, where something went out of whack and caused the table to spin up immediately to 300rpm or something similar, and then start going higher). I knew that could be fixed so got mine cheap-ish.
I know of many top DD TTs which have had this problem, and I can get my hands on any number of used DD tables (including lots of Denons) with the attributes of 'not working.' They're relatively cheap...
As for the auto analogy... If I bought a car from 1982 which was NOS (let's imagine it had spent 27 years in a dealer's back room, getting the engine turned over once a week), before I tried to drive it anywhere, I'd want to make sure the parts with naturally deteriorating materials (i.e. rubber parts such as hoses, belts, bushings, etc) were OK, and I would absolutely count on having to replace the tires and align the wheels. |
Like I posted I don't want to " build a son " ( this is how we say it in México. ) with that subject but I must add that " two birds/butterfly don't announce/makes Spring time ". Do you also drive without seat belts because you've not had an accident this year? Precaution is the domain of sensible thinking. Why don't you type Technics speed problem in Google search and read countless pages on the internet about speed problems due to caps and IC failures. The IC problems are frequently due to a cap failure and some of the ICs are NOT AVAILABLE anywhere at ANY price. A Technics MK3 typically goes for a minimum of $4500.00 and as high as $10,000.00. If you loose the control chip due to bad cap it makes for a pretty expensive paper weight. I'll offer the part number and telephone number of my tech if you still think I'm kidding. Short answer, the internet is filled with similar birds and butterflies, spring is here and it must have been a spring several years ago, judging from the dates on some of these posts. |
Dear Albert: When I was writing my last post you was posting yours because I don't read it.
Like I posted I don't want to " build a son " ( this is how we say it in México. ) with that subject but I must add that " two birds/butterfly don't announce/makes Spring time ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Hiho: Yes, that is the word ( my Englisk never be very good. ).
Lewm, anyway those thousands of DD top TTs don't suffer ( that I know ) of that " destroy associated parts " and that is the same not only with TT circuits but with any other audio item and you can " see " thousands of very old audio items ( amps, preamps, crossovers, tunners, decks, etc, etc. ) that are working in good conditions: I own some this very old audio items that works right on target.
Anyway, this does not have to be a controversial endless subject, as you posted:
+++" You can do what you want, and so can anyone else. This is just advice. " ++++
just like me: only an advice and certainly not an imperative.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
(2) Electrolytic caps will eventually self-destruct. Just when that will happen is impossible to predict, but 20-30 years of service is pushing the envelope. Moreover, modern electrolytics are way better than those available back in the 70s, so swapping them in can have unexpected benefits in performance.
As I noted, since the caps are so cheap and so easily obtained compared to an IC that just plain does not exist any more, and since the service can be performed by a professional for little more than a couple of hundred dollars or by DIY for much much less, it seems foolish not to take this preventive measure. I agree emphatically with Lewm and would add that if certain caps fail on Technics MK2 or MK3 during music play, the result can be catastrophic. My MK2 had a cap failure just as I was about to I drop the needle and play some music. The platter was turning fine, but at high speed and in REVERSE. I know this is cool for those that like to "scratch" but a bit risky for me. One of my two Technics SP10 MK3s made perfect music for months and months, when a sudden failure caused the platter to suddenly accelerate to 250 or 300 RPM, I was blessed my Koetsu Coralstone was not in the groove when this happened. My experience is based on four Technics total, two of which had failures that are potentially hundreds of times what new caps cost. As Lew says, it's just advice but I think my experience shows this kind of failure is not out of the question for products this old. The upside is professional upgrades makes these super tables sound better than when they were new and pretty much protect you from these kind of problems. |
Dear Raul, I hope you are correct, for your own sake. I would argue with your conclusions:
(1) You misunderstand the potential problem. I/we do not say that electrolytic caps will "dissolve" or physically leak damaging fluids into the circuit (although in extreme cases, that can happen too). We are talking about caps that are "leaky" in that they leak DC voltage. The stray DC voltages can have two negative effects. First, DC voltage can alter the operation of the circuit, so the servo mechanism may not work as well as it otherwise can. Second, if the voltage is sufficient in magnitude, it can destroy associated parts, like ICs and transistors that are no longer made.
I should add, Raul, that my Denon DP80 was operating just fine when I bought it, but we found several caps that were leaking DC when we restored it. Measurements taken before and after the replacement of the caps showed that the turntable was performing better after this was done. I don't consider that a waste of money or "anguish".
(2) Electrolytic caps will eventually self-destruct. Just when that will happen is impossible to predict, but 20-30 years of service is pushing the envelope. Moreover, modern electrolytics are way better than those available back in the 70s, so swapping them in can have unexpected benefits in performance.
As I noted, since the caps are so cheap and so easily obtained compared to an IC that just plain does not exist any more, and since the service can be performed by a professional for little more than a couple of hundred dollars or by DIY for much much less, it seems foolish not to take this preventive measure. It's cheaper than most of the alternative upgrades that you mention above. You can do what you want, and so can anyone else. This is just advice, not an imperative. |
Never own a SP10mk2A, is this "A" version any better than the regular version spec wise? I know the A version is to take advantage of the advance of IC of its time so the boards are smaller and generate less heat as oppose to all discreet parts. But spec wise, does it offer any improvement or they are essentially the same thing? The question is is the A version an upgrade from the mk2? Any thoughts?
Raul, I think your choice of word of "anger" should be replaced with "anxiety". Don't you think? |
Dear Lonestarsouth: +++++ " I for one would not dream of modifying my SP-10 mkII in any way. Got it "new in box" ++++
+++++ " Do you think I should re-cap my SP-10 mkII that is "virtually brand new"? " +++++
this kind of " anger/distress " to change caps and the like in a new SP-10 ( and even in a used unit ) IMHO and with all respect to other SP-10 owners has no real foundation on this specific subject:
+++++ Not a lot of money and you can prevent an old cap going and taking out a hard to find part " ++++, of course that you can do it but there is no sense behind that statement.
I own three of these units and two Denon's ( similar Sp-10 level and with inside caps too!!! ), old units and used for many years and with periods of no use at all.
No one of these units has any single trouble because the caps and not only this but over the years I never read or hear/know that with hundreds or maybe thousands of these top DD units out there any one has/had a cap that " disolve " in the TT damaged other TT electronic parts.
As I told you: you can do it but IMHO and for that subject that is unnecessary.
That " anger/distress " on the subject seems to me something like this:
" I have two days with my new Nissan Altima but I go to change it tomorrow because with it I could have an " accident "? "
Maybe could be better for you try to improve elsewhere your system to achieve a better audio system quality performance: tonearm, cartridge, tonearm set-up, cartridge set-up, tonearm/cartridge matching, tonearm rewiring, phono stage, tonearm cable, etc, etc
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
I wouldn't worry too much unless you already have a problem with it - just leave it on 24/7 for a while. |
I will then look into replacing the capacitors in my SP-10 mkII. I am just scared of damaging the unit in one way or another. |
Actually, unless it's a Mk2A, it is at least 30 years old, since date of manufacture. Obviously, I agree with Albert. My Mk2A had been fully serviced by Panasonic/Technics in 1989 and was not used thereafter; it was still in its shipping carton when I bought it. Nevertheless, I did the work noted, or I had it done by a pro. (I serviced the bearing and replaced the caps in the PS myself, then I gave it over to Bill Thalmann, to replace remaining caps in the on-board electronics, check speed, calibrate, etc.) |
Lewm and guys
Do you think I should re-cap my SP-10 mkII that is "virtually brand new"? It may be new to you but it's probably 20 years old and those caps are aged and due to fail. Your sound will be better with modern Panasonic FC caps or black gate. Not a lot of money and you can prevent an old cap going and taking out a hard to find part. |
Lewm and guys
Do you think I should re-cap my SP-10 mkII that is "virtually brand new"? |
Rnadelman, Look for a good standard SP10 Mk2 or 2A. (There is some scuttlebutt around that the 2A is less reliable. The excellent person who has serviced both my 2 and my 2A and many of Albert's tables sees no important differences. I think the 2A may use more ICs in its circuit vs discrete transistors.) Try to avoid tables that have been abused at radio stations. Some of these will have oddball power suppies, which is a sign that you are looking at such a beast. Basically, if the table runs at all 3 speeds and does not look beaten to death, you should be good to go, because you should plan on replacing all the (about 20) electrolytic capacitors in the circuit right away. It's not as bad as it sounds; excellent quality modern electrolytics will only cost you $1 or $2 each. I recommend Panasonic FC (for low voltage) and ED (for high voltage) types. It's important to do this, because a leaky electrolytic can take down an irreplaceable IC or transistor. Then you will want to clean and re-lube the bearing, which is no big deal either. A step by step instuction is to be found on the internet.. |
"The Golden Number" by Charlie Haden is sublime. He is one of my favorite bassists, along with Mingus, Garry Peacock, Barry Guy, et al. Let's not forget those Ornette Coleman records from Atlantic in the 60's he participated. But the recordings he did with Horizon are outstanding. Speaking of bassist, another favorite record on the SP10 for me is Dave Holland's classic "Conference For the Birds" with amazing drum solo's by Barry Altschul and Holland's bass has a huge tone. It's out there jazz so it may not be everyone's cup of tea but I love it.
The SP10 truly excels on records that exhibit bass with lightning transients and explosiveness. The key to me is that it has absolutely no bass overhang, that nagging feeling the the dynamic notes are microscopically delayed as if something is dragging its feet. And I believe the key word is drag, stylus drag. And the SP10 gives you the sense, with its tremendous torque, that the platter is spinning with complete insistence as if the stylus is plowing through the groove without breaking a sweat and mutters "bring it on". It is this effortlessness in its rotation that leaves many other turntables in the dust. I must say it is much easier to have decent sound on belt-drive turntables than direct-drive and for many people it is good enough and I don't blame them. Why the hassle? If your musical taste is wide ranging, then perhaps only a direct-drive will satisfy you and for many people that is exactly the case. Once you are used to this kind of stability and control it's hard to go back to other genres. Don't get me wrong, I love my belt-drive Empire turntables, another high torque classic, it give me the fluidity of BD and the forcefulness of DD. Alas, it is still not DD, particularly in the bass region for its dynamic range and jump factor. Let's not forget not all DD are "forceful" like the SP10, the classic Sony PS-8750 is one of the few DD turntables that actually sounds like more a belt-drive table, super smooth and fluid, with the stability and digital precision of a DD and without the clinical sound signature DD detractors complain about. I love it.
Spinning record is truly fun and I don't really have a strong preference of one thing over the other. I embrace the fact that we have so many different toys to play with and in a forum like this to share our joyful experiences with others. Let's not forget audio is not a sport, it's still a hobby, have fun! Personally, to me audio is like food. The expensive stuff offers superior and fresher ingredient but it still requires a good recipe and a good chef to make it tasty. Certain food is an acquired taste for certain eaters. Sometimes I want shark fin soup and sometimes I want chili. They all taste good to me. To ask for the absolute sound is like to ask for the absolute food. Let the critics worry about that.
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Rnadelman,
The SH-10B3 is the standard obsidian plinth for the SP-10Mk2, and it also works on the SP-10Mk3. The SH-10EA is the standard power supply for the SP-10Mk2. The power supply for the SP-10Mk3 is a different beast. The two are not interchangeable. Theoretically, the various plinths (SH-10B3, SH-10B5, and SH-10B7) are interchangeable across the SP01-Mk2, SP-10Mk2A, and SP-10Mk3.
Other than that, I recommend you read Albertporter's system thread regarding the SP-10Mk3 Project. There is a lot of useful info there. |
I may chime in here and agree with the bass dynamics and jump factor of good DD tables.
I just recently bought a 30 year old Exclusive P10. Coupled with a Koetsu Rosewood it has better bass dynamics and drive than my TW Raven AC-3/Phantom/ dyna XV-1.
very impressive indeed. |
Hi, I am reading all the post with great interest. It is difficult to picture some of what is being offered as I do not own a SP10 mkll or lll. With that said I have been looking to purchase one and I am finding that I just don't have enough knowledge to make an intelligent purchase.
If you folks who already own one could outline the major points to be aware of when looking that would be great.
Also can someone tell me the difference in power supplies, the numbers being SH10b3 and SH10EA.
Thanks
Richard |
Had a similar experience this weekend with my Denon DP80 in slate with a Triplanar/Colibri. A friend brought over an LP of Ray Brown playing with Laurindo Almeida. The first cut is "'Round Midnight". Almeida plays a little solo verse, and then Brown comes in with a really low bass strike on his bass. We both nearly jumped off my sofa. We didn't listen to it on the SP10/slate, but I bet the effect would have been similar. Once they are mounted in the same type of plinth, and if that plinth is effective, the DP80 and the SP10 sound quite similar, based on my several hours of comparative listening. Both give a big sound with tremendous "jump" and rhythm. |
Play a record of acoustic bass by, say, Charlie Haden's "Closeness" with Alice Coltrane and you will hear the delicacy of his plucking and tunefulness and its deep richness. Couldn't agree more with your assessment of bass performance with SP10MK2 and MK3 and remarkable you mention one of my all time reference LPs. I don't think another post at Audiogon ever mentioned "Closeness." If you don't already have it, the other Charlie Haden that has the same effect on me is "The Golden Number," Duets with Don Cherry Ornette Coleman, Hampton Hawes and Archie Shep. Truly great stuff, Horizon 26 by A&M. |
One of the most amazing thing about the SP10mk2 is in the bass dynamic, its tightness and focus. NOTHING I heard in any turntable genre has this kind of bass energy and transient. The idler drive tables might have the big tone and expansiveness in the bass but the SP10 has this quality that I called "jump factor".
Play a punk record by, say, The Clash version of "Police and Thief" in the opening drum solo and you will know what I mean. The bass just jump right out with that tightness and sharp focus that can pin you to the wall, exactly how a great sounding punk record should be. Spin some speed metal such as Slayer and you feel your blood is boiling. Play a record of acoustic bass by, say, Charlie Haden's "Closeness" with Alice Coltrane and you will hear the delicacy of his plucking and tunefulness and its deep richness. Play a chaotic sounding record such as European avant-jazz group Schlippenbach trio's "Pakistani Pomade" and the SP10 can still keep its composure by separating all the individual instrumental lines amidst all the maelstrom and the drum work can make you feel exhilarated. And when I'm done listening to the SP10, I feel exhausted in the best sense because I just engaged in the music in a visceral way like no other. It pulls you into the music and it's just that simple.
When it comes to the bass, the SP10 reign supreme, for my money.
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Albert, a while ago I got Janis Ian's "Live: Working without a net" and on that cd there is the track "Tattoo" as featured on the marvelous "Breaking Silence" LP.
I was stunned all over again at how the LP version, played back on the SP-10 mkII, trounces the CD version in the PRaT dept. Okay, lets face it, I dont own a great cd player but still. |
Lonestarsouth,
The Technics MK2 is an incredible machine. I didn't believe it until I owned one. |
I for one would not dream of modifying my SP-10 mkII in any way. Got it "new in box" so its a bit of a gem. I enjoy it as it is. Excellent machine even with mediocre ancillaries (blush blush). |
Dear Sp-10s: I think that everyone of you are realy satisfied with your own SP-10 mods aside the fun to do it by your self.
I already posted on other threads that as important as is the electronics, naked or non-naked, suspension, etc, etc, IMHO and for every single TT ( any ) the main and critical factor for it can show at its best ( neutrality ) is the build material on platter ( certainly the build material is important everywhere. ) if like Albert say:
+++++ " is how far you must go before no more improvement can be had. " +++++
my advise is to " explore " that platter build material. Btw, very complex subject for say the least.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
the SP10 has so much damn torque that you would think you really need something massive to hold down the turntable to sink all that vibration. Didn't Mark Kelly tell us that Sansui experimented something like this about that return torque that's causing the turntable cabinet to color the sound? Absolutely I agree that if Raul or anyone else prefers the sound of "naked," that's fine, but chassis rotation in response to motor correction is precisely what I'm hoping to eliminate. The only question for me is how far you must go before no more improvement can be had. On my MK2 Wenge plinth and my MK3 Ebony I experimented with various isolation feet and the roller types low friction overcame the plinth mass and allowed the chassis to respond to the energy, making for the analog version of "digital jitter." This convinced me that the chassis must not move, even microscopically. The only two options I've found that achieve this and still provide "isolation foot improvement" is (1) Still Point system with threaded riser, (2) A military sheet material I've been experimenting with some months. This military material has incredibly high sheer strength in the horizontal plane but compresses in the vertical plane absorbing bass energy relative to it's thickness and the mass (total weight) applied. Fortunately I found some an engineer on the project that had specifications for load and thickness and this has made experimenting a more fruitful venture. |
Dear Albert: +++++ " making a comment like that with absolutely no foundation. " +++++
+++++ " How anyone can audition a system with everything..........and without your own version or "mod" of the table is beyond me. " +++++
+++++ " but when you post something so off the wall as you have, I begin to question your test methods .." +++++
I receive several emails on the subject since your post with different flavor opinions and I need to clarify on the subject trying to put a little more light on this " controversy ":
like I posted each one of us have ( sometimes ) similar, different and especial skills on " audio culture " ( each one audio learning curve ) where some of those especial differences comes on each one because we each one choose to " cultivate " in especial some audio areas that are more interesting to each one of us.
Well, I want to write some experiences ( even one that you live with me ) to show the skills I'm talking about:
been in San Diego with a very nice audio friends we were hearing differents Phonolinepreamps ( in at least two different audio systems. ) between them the Dartzeel and Esential 3160.
In a specific time/moment we take each one opinion on the quality performance of those Phonolinepreamps and I remember what I say on the Dartzeel : that both frequency extremes were not natural but manipulated on purpose to give the Dartzeel signature sound, this was/happen 3-4 months before the Dartzeel review on Stereophile where I confirm ( by the product measurements. ) exactly/precise what 3-4 months before was my opinion on what I heard in the Dartzeel that was surrounded ( in SD. ) of " unknow " audio items to me and where I was traveling around USA.
We discuss for hours our each one finding on what we heard there and I can say that we have very good time in that unforgetable friend's meeting.
in other trip in USA I visit to Steve Doobins and for that days I don't have almost no reference/know-how on the strain gauge cartridge/system that he own so I was not prepared of what I shall hear there.
My reaction was very fast: impressive just at the begining but after a few minutes and especialy on the highs and tonal balance I say Steve that I don't like it and I tell him that I think that the " trouble " for me was not on the cartridge but on the cartridge electronics.
Months latter of this strain gauge experience I learn almost all on that cartridge and again confirm what I heard and what I say to SD that time, that was IMHO a faulty design.
other sample of this kind of skills you live it with me in your audio system last time I was there.
you put me first music through CDP and 30-40 minutes latter switch to your analog rig ( cartridge: PC-1 ) and you remember that after few minutes I ask for a change the load impedance ( that was around 500 and change it to around 100 ohms. ) because what I was hearing was not so good, things improve with that load impedance change.
Latter ( 10 minutes more ) I told you that something was wrong with the system because the right output level on the speaker system was lower than the left side, you check that the volume be in the right way in the preamp and heard again and confirm that the output on thr right side was lower through analog because on digital everything was right on target.
Not only you was hearing the system with out take in count this " problem " but ( in the afternoon ) six of your member group either take in count ( I check that the volume in your preamp where even/similar position. ).
In other place with a different system I made a comment to the audio system owner: Sir you have bad bass resonances here and he told me that no one ever of his audio friends ( including audio dealers ) never told him any comment on this problem that now and after my comment he take in count, I have to say that this audio system is in a dedicated room with 200K+ on audio equipment.
All these samples/experiences/comments can tell you that I'm training in deep for make that kind of " work ", this skill does not comes by free or random it is a hard and time consuming training over the years. Am I prefect on this regard? certainly not ( far from there ) but this learning skill is what give me the knowledge/kno-how to evaluate my audio system quality performance and through many changes on it discern what is a real improvment change and what was only a different only.
This skill is something that any one can develop, I'm still in this learning curve.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
I actually tried the naked approach before, about more than 10 years ago. I had a small piece of 3/4" particle board attached to the upper right hand corner of the stock chassis acting as a cantilevered armboard and that's it. The turntable was just sitting on the table by its belly with four stock small rubber pucks. It was pretty naked, think of a naked person wearing a right hand glove. I had an MMT arm at the time, I think.
It didn't sound all that hot because I remember later on the same arm was mounted on a McCurdy radio station metal frame type of plinth and sounded better than the previous set up. And my custom butcher block plinth also sounded better than the naked approach but I had a different arm so that comparison is probably not valid. I guess I can always try it again with a different tonearm, like one of my Audiocraft arms.
All I am saying is that I am not convinced no plinth is better than having plinth. Just from a pure physics stand point, the SP10 has so much damn torque that you would think you really need something massive to hold down the turntable to sink all that vibration. Didn't Mark Kelly tell us that Sansui experimented something like this about that return torque that's causing the turntable cabinet to color the sound? From my experience with the naked approach, the set up did have that typical Technics clinical sound so I would imagine having a massive plinth is the right approach to high torque DD turntable like the SP10. I am not sold on your approach but, hey, if it works for you, great, because that certainly saved you ton of money on plinth. But before I try the naked plinth thing again, I can't wait to mount the naked motor to a slab of slate!
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Here's the thing. If you fire up your SP10 MkII while it is just sitting naked on a shelf, you will see that IT will "do a little dance" (altho I never saw one make a little love). It does a little dance because of Newton's 3rd Law of Motion, and because of the high torque generated at start up for which force there is an "equal and opposite" reaction, as Newton told us. The job of the plinth is to soak up that force and stabilize the system. After start-up, the torque needed to keep the speed stable will be much less, so Raul could argue that a high-mass plinth is not needed once the correct speed is attained. However, I think a well built plinth dissipates vibrational energy that can otherwise color the sound. However, there's no harm in trying Raul's idea. |
Skills to pay the bills! That's what I'm talking about! do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight. Shioot 8^).
Anyhow enough silliness I have a sp10 mkII in the buff just hanging out, I guess I'll fire it up and see. It is slated for slate so it will be a nice comparison...that deserves another 8^) |
Dear Albert: Like I say I don't want to argue about but you can be totally sure that I have answers to your questions/dude, one of that answers is that my audio system perception habilities/skills/tools are different from yours: I can make/hear things that you can't imagine and not because I'm something " special " NO it is only that my audio self " training " through many years ( this is a discipline by it self. ) give me that kind of shiklls like I'm sure you have skills on many other audio " areas " that I don't.
Now, I'm not saying that you or any one is wrong I'm saying just: try it and if you don't like it then come back where you are today, is so difficult to understand this?.
I'm only sharing with you an opportunity to improve ( or not ) what you have now: is it a " crime " to share my experiences about?, you have a dedicated thread on the SP-10 subject where you are doing the same: sharing experiences.
Now, maybe you don't want to try it: that is fine not all people likes to take the effort to " explore " alternatives but like with the MM/MI subject there are people that likes to " discover " what is all about.
Albert I'm a person that does not like to have to many " holes " in my audio knowledge so if I can " sealed " some of those ( many ) holes " exploring " about then I will do it.
IMHO I think is worth to try it.
I respect your opinion about the " validity " of my comments where there is a difference with your comment: I already try /hear/herad the naked alternative ( like the no-naked ones. )and you don't.
The " validity " of any one experiences are a very controversial subject but there are some cases where that " validity " is more easy to confront/appear, example: at least two person in this thread ( you are one of them ) make statements/comparison of two different TT's ( same cartridge and same system. ) where the tonearm was different for that comparisons: which is the " validity " of those comparisons? , IMHO almost no real/precise " validity " here due to that " heavy " difference in tonearm in each TT.
Could/can this means that both of you lose the " validity " on your opinions?, certainly not: the " validity " of each one opinion is a more in deep subject that that kind of " faulty " opinion/TT-comparison.
Please don't be up-set with what I post/posted elsewhere, you can be sure that that never is my attitude.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
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Dear Hiho: I'm using the Audio Technica At-616 ( pneumatic. ), threee of them.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Lewm: There is no more plywood ( that was used to mount the tonearm but not anymore. ) and the AT footers are still there supporting the TT.
Now, what I'm saying is only that any one of you could try the " naked " alternative ( I know a " ugly " look but.... ) you don't lose almost nothing because you can go back of what you have today.
Anyway, I don't want to start any controversy about: it is only try it or not, you always are the best judge on your system performance.
Regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
