I have an SP-10 with a Micro-Seiki copper mat. Now that my system is dialed in in terms of room acoustic treatments and speaker placement I find the Micro-Seiki mat to be a bit too lively but outstanding in terms of dynamics and soundstage. The stock rubber mat is too dull and bloated.
Could someone suggest a mat that falls in between the two, leaning more towards the copper mat sound than stock but less forward in the midrange and treble.
OK, what about Goo-Gone or similar cleaners, if checked not to contain alcohol? My point was simply there should be some means to clean off any residue it if remains.
BTW, what about a "Moscow Mule"? That places alcohol in a copper mug with no bad results. At least so far as the mug is concerned. The consumer is on their own for results however. ;^)
downunder, you might two large sections of a tape that won't leave a residue, like blue painter's masking tape. The ends of the tape being the handles. Even if some "stickum" is left behind that would be easy to clean off with alcohol.
@downunder hmm, i never tried the upsidedown placement, i think this is correct placement, but CU-500 is much thicker. Yeah, to remove the mat you might need to flip the whole turntable :))
I just noticed you placed the mat upside down, mate Why?
@chakster
Is the cu180 mat really supposed to be with the slight rounded circumference side up, rather than down?
it fits and couples with the platter perfectly either way.
I have flipped it now for a bit of fun. Funny, it feels as if its now slightly lower than the other way - but that’s obviously an illusion. BTW - Its impossible to remove from the mat from the SP10mk3 platter now :-) How do you do it now easily?
I bought a set of the isolation feet from Kridon. For the $$, they sound really good. Did you not buy the SL 1200 feet with the M6 screws on top - they screw directly into the M6 threads in the plinth.
that said, just after Kridon shipped the isolation feet, I found a set of used Stillpoint V’s. They do sound better, but certainly not 10 times better like the price.
In case anyone seeks to upgrade their direct-drive turntable plinth isolation feet, I have used the Delrin version of these for the past 2 years and am very satisfied:
Replacement neoprene "O" rings can also be had on Ebay, as they do dry out and crack/split over the years. The "O" rings are the feets' contact surface with the shelf upon which the TT sits. The cones are hidden from view by the 2 piece design.
For reference, my table is a Technics SP-10 Mk2, "Krebs upgraded" (by Bill Thalmann, who also did some preventive maintenance parts replacements on the board and added a nice orange strobe LED - Bill does great work), with a PBN Audio outboard power supply. The TT and feet are in this plinth:
I'm not a "contender". I'm not trying for "best". I've used the SAEC mat for years and like it. I've switched to other mats, and always come back. Friends bring over the latest-greatest mat made of exotic materials, and it's fun to try them, and I'm happy to go back to the SAEC. I've tried it in combination with various other mats of various materials (adjusting for VTA) and I'm still happy with the SAEC.
I don't put it directly on the platter. I elevate it about 0.5mm, so there's only air between it and the platter. I do this because I did extensive tests many years ago on several expensive turntables and all had some degree of bearing rumble in the platter — I raise the SAEC mat so it doesn't touch the platter, hopefully isolating it from that rumble — and indeed there is Zero rumble. The SAEC still contacts the central spindle (which is attached to the bearing) through the central hole — I doubt it transmits much rumble to the vinyl, but I put a small clamp on the spindle (only 1.5" but dense) to help absorb that small bit of bearing rumble that reaches the spindle. I don't like clamps in general, but using this small one for the purpose described does not have the "deadening" effect larger clamps can cause. In my view, clamps don't flatten edge-warps anyway — mostly they just look really cool — today it seems a turntable is naked without a sexy clamp on it.
I'm not striving for perfection but the improvements are quite audible. I'm able to indulge my need to tweak, hear the beneficial effect of my own creative contribution, and I have a highish-tech mat and a clamp so I can hang with the cool kids — without going nuts, trying every mat under the sun, then debating if it's better or only different — and if it really is better, is it better enough to matter.
I didn't see Peter's 7/28/17 post prior to mine just added. Indeed, my CU-180 replica came from this EBay seller, and I am happy to learn that he continues to sell them. Even more thanks to Peter for again informing us of their availability!
A few years ago, I purchased a replica of the CU-180 from Peter's reference. It was the last a German seller had on hand, and I don't know if he had more made. It fit the SP-10 platter perfectly, deadening the ringing at least as well as the stock mat. I topped it with an ultra light TT Weights "Supreme" mat - thin cork bottom with thin carbon top, sandwiching a composite Kevlar fiber/carbon fiber middle layer. Beautiful clear epoxy finish. I use the lightweight TTWeights aluminum record clamp as well. The combination looks great and does the job.
Downunder, the TTM is not pigskin. It is thick stainless steel. I think you have it mixed up with some other mat. Very heavy and comes with its companion oil filled clamp. The mat itself can be tuned via the 3 Allen bolts. I believe it is called TTM monitor mat.
There is a seller on eBay that sells replicas of the MS CU mats, I have bought over 30 of them from him in various configurations, including custom made mats for my DN308 builds and DP6 / 7 builds too.
Below a link to a current listing, no affiliation other than being a satisfied customer.
I am afraid I have zero interest in the pigskin TTM mat. I tried the Jico leather mat and it softened transients. They may to a good job in systems needing some refinement.
. Using a clamp does a similar thing to the life in music. I own an Orb record flattener, so all my records are flat. All my clamps sit alone being unloved.
I want to hear the full transients and life in music and the cu-180 does that. I have finished ny search for platter interfaces.
Another mat you might want to try is the TTM mat and oil filled clamp. That is better than the CU180. More refined sounding. The cu180 by itself is probably the second best thing to the TTM. I have not had the opportunity to try the cu500.
Glad you like it, my Micro CU-500 on SP-10mk2 was significant upgrade in sound quality, sadly the CU-500 is so hard to find and twice as much in price than CU-180. But those copper mats not only sound so good, but also looks so attractive on Technics platter like no other mat on the market.
I recently picked up a SL1000Mk3 and used the stk Technics mat.
About 3 weeks ago I put on my SAEC SS-300 alloy turntable mat. WOW - a lot better sounding - reduces a bit of bass blur and better clarity and attack across the board. Funny, when I put the SAEC on my Exclusive P3, I preferred the Pioneer rubber mat.
My Boston mat1 does not even fit onto my SP10 mk3 platter.
I have taken the plunge and bought a Micro Seiki CU-180 off @chakster. Now just have to wait for it to arrive as looking forward to it.
Td, As to the carpet tape, yes, only a few tiny pieces do the job more than well enough. On my Mk3, I was too anal about leaving goop on the platter, so I just used small bits of scotch tape around the lip. Two tiny pieces placed so as not to touch the top surface of the BA Mat2, just its edge and the edge of the platter itself.
Yesterday I was able to remove the BA Mat 2 from the SP10 platter. Residue from the rosin was where I had placed it the day before. A circular array of spots. Just slightly sticky. And there was also residue on the bottom side of the Mat 2. I don't think the rosin attacked the sealant that Boston Audio Design sprays onto this mat. No evidence of that. This method does not seem too aggressive.
I could have cleaned the Rosin away had I wanted. But a small amount of "stiction" is wanted at this important interface.
Other methods suggested, like 2-way tapes or adhesives that will tack up without hardening seem good. My exp. with 2-way tapes is that some of these can result in a strong bond when enough tape is used. I use the stuff routinely in my day job (cmm programmer) to hold odd shapes in place for the cmm inspection. So my caution there is to be sparing with the 2-way tape, or it may become extremely difficult to extract the mat from the platter. (use just a little)
Albert: Thanks for the compliment. This SP10 mkII project has been a challenge for me.
Glad to hear the BA mat 2 worked out for you Steve. I'm not really sure when my BA mat 1 got warped but I don't think it was when I first received it. I always stored it with my records standing straight up in a temperature controlled environment.
I don't use the BA-1 anymore since I got my Micro Seiki CU-180 mat. I initially used the CU-180 by itself but found it to be over damped in my system. I then started experimenting with other materials between the platter and CU-180. I found I liked the sound better with something else in between the CU-180 and platter. I ended up using strips of 1/16 isodamp 1002 in between. Luckily with the SP10's spindle height you can try all sorts of things as long as your arm height has enough adjustability. Isodamp is kind of sticky and oily and can stain stuff so keep that in mind if you try it.
A friend uses 3M spray adhesive to adhere his mat to the platter. 3M makes a product that does not make a permanent bond to the material called "artist adhesive".
I've just received my Mat 2 today. Austin Jackson was very adept at quickly responding to my request for this mat. So far I've had enough time to spin a few albums through. My impressions are favorable as I had expected.
Some early observations: Yes, it is a nicely flat sample. (see my earlier post to this thread)
Mat thickness. Both the BA Mat 2 and the original SP10 mk2 rubber mat are within .005 inches of the same thickness. Just call it 5mm thick for both mats.
Traction against the platter. The BA Mat 2 is lathe cut from a solid chunk of carbon graphite. It seems to have rather poor traction against the aluminum platter.
And the first evidence I saw of this was while holding a record brush against the spinning record. The brush did stop the record while the aluminum platter continued to spin unhindered.
At first I could not tell if it was the record spinning against the upper surface of the BA carbon mat, or if the BA mat was spinning against the sp10 platter.
I solved this by looking for a means to improve traction between platter and mat. Sparingly, I brushed a small amount of liquid solder flux (rosin based) in an array of spots onto the surface of the sp10 platter. Equally spaced. Not much. Just enough to see if when the rosin began to solidify it would improve traction between mat and platter. And then I replaced the BA Mat 2 onto the sp10 mk2 platter
After this I could hold the record brush against the spinning record and observe that the record did not slow or come to a stop as it had before. It was the mat spinning against the platter.
I expect the small amount of rosin I used to be a benign method. Hopefully I'm not wrong. I'll know next time I need to remove the BA Mat2 from the SP10 mk2 platter.
Listening: it's early but I've already heard improvements over the standard rubber mat. Firstly, there is an improved clarity in the reproduction of various detail. Inner detail stands out a little nicer. But also macro detail improves as well.
Haitink / Amsterdam Concertbow....Mahler No. 5 on Phillips. Firstly, the horns are reproduced with less blare and more air. Less Glare.
Led Zeppelin II / Classic Records 180g remaster. No loss in rhythmic drive as noted before. No loss in bass energy. No loss in energetic drive. Improvements heard seemed to be a clarity throughout all frequencies...and the improved definition of micro detail such as harmonic overtones. Sustain and decay on the cymbals is very nice. Already nice before but just a touch better now.
Just a few notes. I'll spend more quality time listening to this and write down my observations to my website.
Lew, thanks for your response. re: mat thickness versus vta/sra. Plus one other factor; the sp10mkII platter has a pocket that a mat must fit within. And to be functional any mat would need to at least show proud of the platter rim. Just noting that part.
In any case vta/sra becomes a necessary adjustment when comparing one platter mat to another. And I keep a number of platter mats around handy just because I like to experiment with these items. Yes, the arm I'm using makes it convenient to adjust vta/sra. And I did make use of this feature during the comparison. But combine with with some earlier comments made to this thread about the BA mats.....that there might be some concern about the carbon mat losing traction against the platter under moments of higher stylus drag / speed corrections, etc. So, with the BA Mat One, its undersize thickness does allow the placement of a layer of "something" that could, conceivably improve traction between the carbon mat and the platter. Just a thought.
RE; BA Mat One and warpage. 1) I'd think that the solid graphite material, if left bare, may or may not be susceptible to warpage. Either during production or at a later date if improper mat storage became a factor. Just a guess. Why not check to see if solid graphite is or is not susceptible to warp. 2) These mats are coated by the mfr with a "proprietary" clear coat of some polymer material. I say polymer because I've held the mat and detected what I perceive to be a minimal flexibility to it. And I suspect that the mat prior to these coatings may not exhibit the same properties. and the coating will keep the graphite from shedding its graphite surface whenever it comes into light contact with.....anything. Graphite; very soft stuff that rubs off.
3) yes I'm certain that the sample I saw was indeed warped. As noted, ~1/16th inch. I observed this while allowing the mat to lay flat against a thick pane of glass that I keep around. and the glass I have proved to be very flat.
4) The mat does not belong to me. It was on a brief loan from another audiophile living in my area so that I could try it out on my SP10 mkII. And I liked what I heard. I'd probably look into a BA Mat 2 for this application. Also, I'm thinking about the benefits of gunmetal copper in this platter. I'm also thinking about any diy mat I may try in the meantime.
5) back to the clear coating that BA applies to these graphite mats. Perhaps during this process, when the coatings are applied and allowed to cure, it could conceivable be possible for the polymer to shrink while it cures / hardens. If applied unevenly.... Just conjecture.
But I did mention the warping I observed just to see if anyone else had seen a similar situation with one of these.
Td, That's the first I have ever heard of a Boston Audio Mat being warped. Both my Mat1 and my Mat2 appear to the eye to be perfectly flat, and certainly there is no tell-tale sign of warpage when they are spinning. I trust your judgement, but be sure there is no other possible cause of your perception that yours is warped. If it IS warped, BA should take it back and exchange it for no cost, IMO.
One other thing: Why do you deem it to be so important to maintain the exact same thickness as the OEM rubber mat? A slight tweak of your VTA should take care of any minute difference between the BA and the OEM mats, and placing the rubber mat in between the BA and the bare platter will probably alter the sound, for good or ill.
Considering the materials of which they are made, I cannot imagine a BA mat warping post-manufacture. It could conceivably have been warped as a manufacture defect, I guess.
Chris, would love to know what you think of the two Mk3's, with vs without the Krebs' mods. (Of course, there are nothing but positive reports from other sources of which I am aware.)
Lew, on a side note, both a Krebs modified Sp10Mk3 and factory stock Sp10Mk3 reside here currently, although I personally have yet to directly compare at length.
At present I have the original mat on the unit. I was able to try out a BA mat 1 last Sunday. This was allowed when another sp10mkII owner brought over his BA mat1 for me to try out. I dealt with the obvious problem of the mat thickness being undersize for this TT. I placed a thin mat underneath the BA mat 1 and this resulted in a total mat thickness that was within a few thousandths of the oem mat thickness. this allowed me to hear the difference between my standard mat and the BA1.
Fwiw, I'm using a Graham 2.2 tonearm. And that allows a very convenient method for making adjustments to VTA/SRA on the fly. With that out of the way I can say that the BA mat definitely provided an overall improvement in comparison to the oem mat. The first thing I noticed was greater clarity in the upper frequencies. It might take me more time to fully evaluate the difference. But what I heard was enough to convince me that a solid graphite mat could be the ticket for this motor unit (and likely most others).
It is possible that the thin mat on the bottom may have improved "traction" between platter and mats.
The one negative I noticed about the BA-1 mat was that it was warped. When placed on a flat surface the BA-1 mat showed as much as 1/16th " of warp. And this was apparent as the mat was spinning on the platter. At one point I removed the underneath mat to allow the BA-1 mat to lie directly against the SP10 platter. Warp still the same and VTA was corrected via the Graham VTA adjustment facility. Roughly the same SQ. At least as near as I could tell during this brief listening review.
So my question now is; does anyone else have experience with a BA-1 carbon mat being warped? 2nd quetion would be; is it possible to straighten one of these mats without breaking it? I say this because I noticed that the mat is coated with some sort of polymer that (seems to) give(s) it a certain amount of flexibility.
Another thought to put out there: Has anyone tried one of these players with a vacuum platter mat? I was thinking of the Vacuum mat produced by Thorens back in the 1980s. Now kind of rare, but interesting.
Lew, keen observation. Yes, I believe part of the enhancements gained when using Copper in conjunction with the stock platter I believe is its ability to provide an extra layer of shielding between the powerful motor magnets and stray EMI radiating within the Mk2. Fortunately, the stock factory damped aluminum alloy Mk2 platter exhibits very low levels of magnetism, which aids a hand as well.
Chris, Have you considered that part of the possible benefit you perceive from copper or copper-containing mats is related to shielding of the cartridge from EMI radiated by the motor? I doubt this is much of an issue for the Mk3, with its massive copper-containing platter (and maybe that's why it contains copper), but it certainly could theoretically help the Mk2. For the Kenwood L07D, the cognoscenti know to add such a shield, even though the platter is already stainless steel, a pretty good shield. I personally heard an improvement, removal of a kind of faint dull coloration, when I added an LP-size shield between the platter and the L07D "platter sheet" (which is 5 lbs of stainless steel). I made it out of TI Shield.
Thoughtful exchange above from many posters and valid points, including some helpful direct experiences shared. In my personal experience, the Technics Sp10Mk2 will indeed benefit from the use of an appropriate mat, the exact type and subsequent composition will depend upon the listeners tastes. I for one, enjoy both Copper based mats (i.e.. Micro Seiki CU-180) or a composite (rubber, or cork/rubber/leather) mat used in conjunction with an aluminum based mat, such as the Oyaide MJ-12. In fact, during testing, I found Copper based material to be so desirable, the result early this year was our manufacturing a brand new Sp10Mk2 composite platter consisting of stress relieved Aluminum + Copper. For those who may prefer certain playback characteristics of different materials, I am working on a design revision which will allow interchangeable upper platter combinations.
The material Delrin, solely used as a platter mat material, as suggested above by Mosin, we actually designed and manufactured for a brief period of time but production ceased immediately when the mats began to develop warping anomalies. Their musical characteristics I found to be pleasant, albeit slightly polite. A different type of Delrin composite based platter mat we are developing however, but the release date is unknown. Another issue faced when using pure Delrin is the potential for excessive residual static build up. I've yet to listen to (evaluate) the Boston Audio Mat1 or Mat2, however, the use of Carbon/Graphite seems logical and a good choice for material selection, given its rigidity and density. TTW Carbon hybrid record mats I have heard positive things about, although personally have not had the opportunity to evaluate at length, so I cannot comment.
Lewm, I wholly agree with your assessment of overtly heavy record clamps. In my experience, I have found that time again, they result in more degradation than good. This applies to all drives types mostly, with few if any known exceptions.
A quick word, comment rather, with regards to the Sp10Mk3. Having spent years designing plinths, playing, owning and testing this Technics model, I agree in that they are indeed a reference level analog playback machine and remain worthy of serious consideration. However, the secondary market prices for stock units, in my opinion, have now inflated to an extent which has made them less attractive an option than at one time in the not so distant past. It is for this very reason, that I continue to exploit the undeveloped playback potential of the Sp10Mk2 platform.
With respect to the forum thread poster, my apologies for straying off track of the original record mat subject.
Ebuzz, Herbies mat also has a home trial. I believe it's 90 days. You could order both and decide for yourself. Keep the one that best meets your needs.
There is quite a price jump from the Herbies mat to the Boston Audio Mat 2. Thinking about one for my Well Tempered Classic table, along with an upgrade to the clamp. Not sure which way to go. I guess one good thing about the Boston Audio is that they give you 30 days to try it out.
Downunder and Kmc, I have not heard any Krebs-modded SP10s. Perhaps they bring the Mk2 closer to the Mk3. However, IMO between the unmodified versions, the Mk3 is indeed far and away superior to the Mk2, albeit the Mk2 is excellent. It doesn't take 5 minutes of listening to know that. This difference between Mk3 and Mk2 makes sense, because of the vast price difference between the two in the current market. I am curious to know how the Dobbins The Beat compares to Mk3, myself. Clearly, he was influenced by the Mk3 in designing The Beat.
Kmc, All I can recall is that a head to head comparison of the Boston Audio Mat1 to the Herbie's mat led me to use the former, but this may have been on my restored Lenco. Don't think I did a head to head on the Technics. On the Technics, I compared an SAEC to the BA Mat2, and the latter won narrowly. Thus I ended up with Mat1 on Lenco and Mat2 on SP10 Mk3. On matters of this sort, I tend to make a decision and not look back.
I use the Herbie's mat on both my SP 10MK3 and MK2A and really like them. They allow a very natural and unperturbed view of the midrange and highs...possibly less perfect in the bass (maybe a slight sloppiness there). They reduce noise. I have tried the vintage Micro Seiki mat and do not care for the added brightness and slight glare that I hear, but the bass is better defined. Having said that, many people I respect like these and similar mats, so I intend to try them again, as my system has evolved since trying the Micro Seiki.
Downunder, a MK2 that has been electronically upgraded with the Krebs modification is a formidable turntable. It does sound different from the MK3 - something I had commented about under Albert Porter's virtual system forum. Perhaps those comments will be helpful to you.
How do you find the SP10 Mk3 vs the Mk2? I have a line on a cheap Mk2 with EPA-100 tonearm, however not sure if it is worth my expense and time as I keep hearing the Mk3 blows the Mk2 away. not sure how close to the truth that is?
JB, Thanks for that URL. If the mat is made the way they claim, it might be very effective, and it is quite reasonable in price.
Ct, I kind of regretted that remark; it's the kind of thing one can say in face to face conversation with a friend but might be taken the wrong way on the internet. I meant no offense to the previous post-er, only good fun. Glad it made someone laugh. It made me laugh too.
Jarrett or other owners of MS mats. I am curious - how does one know if their MS mat is a real MS one or a replica from .....? Reason I ask is there have been discussions on this forum of many fake ones being sold. thanks
Then why not sit on the f***in' thing? Be my guest.
:^)
funny - you made me spit up some coffee on my keyboard Lew.
I have a riddle and this is for the serious "mat lovers" - hmmm....lets define it has those with at least 3 different mats. Or at least one that is made from an animal.
ok the riddle.
How do you know when somebody "really" loves their mat ?
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