iFi Zen Stream: $400
Primare NP5 Prisma: $800
Project Stream Box S2 Ultra: $900
Holo Audio Red: $950
Volumio Rivo: $1200
Volumio Rivo+: $1500
Sound quality differences in streamers
Can there be sonic differences between moderate and high priced streamers when used for streaming only. I will not use or engage an onboard DAC or any other feature, just stream from Tidal or Amazon to DAC. If the unit is just transferring zeros and ones to a DAC can there be differences in say a $300 WiiM and a $3000 dSC streamer? Thanks
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@kckrs - it must be draining having to read through so many polar opposite comments, so I’ll keep this an easy read. It is known we each sense the world differently - as a trained architect, I am able to tell when a line is off level by an eighth of an inch over the length of three and a half feet, while I have friends who couldn’t tell even if the level is off by an entire inch and a quarter. In much the same way, we each hear very differently, but by degrees much finer than the sense of sight. I know a concert pianist who hears and understands timing, pitch and upper frequencies so acutely and accurately, it boggles my mind. Likewise I know a good many audiophiles more experienced with listening and who hear considerably better than I can. The differences in opinion we read in audiogon are as coloured by natural or learned ability over listening as they are by equipment performance. Mdalton and some others cannot hear much of the difference between cheap and expensive streamers to make the expensive ones worth their while. Steakster, fleschler and a few others more can, and understand for themselves how important those differences and/or improvements are for each themselves. You have to find a way to listen to different streamers in a system where the only thing that gets switched is the streamer, to know if the quality differences between streamers is something you can indeed hear. If you do hear those differences, then welcome to this difficult and potentially expensive world of our wonderful and amazing hobby. If you don’t, thank your lucky stars and settle for something along the lines of what mdalton is recommending - you wouldn’t be able to hear much difference in any case - not a bad thing really, since you won’t have to deal with the finer, nuanced aspects of music realism. In friendship - kevin |
”sigh”. You slightly misrepresented my position. Please see my post on 4/25 at 4:05 pm. I do and have heard differences across streamers, and I believe many others do as well. However, due to a misunderstanding of what streamers do or don’t do, I believe that many mischaracterize the causes of the differences they hear (or don’t hear). For example, if they have an NOS DAC that is highly sensitive to jitter, moving from a bluesound to an Aurender can be revelatory. Or if they have a DAC that reclocks, maybe they don’t hear much if any difference. Or maybe their new streamer also oversamples, and that changes the sound. Or maybe the internal streamer associated with their very high quality DAC generated extraordinary amounts of jitter. Or maybe they changed their DAC at the same time and neglected to mention that when they posted. All of these are real world examples of threads that have occurred on this site where the OP initially claimed magic healing powers for their new streamer. And I do believe that there are definitely some systems with lower noise floors and more resolving speakers that can make any differences easier to hear. Finally, I also do believe that yes, in audio as in every other sphere of our lives, we are all vulnerable to confirmation bias, so yes, in some circumstances, I am skeptical of some differences that some of us believe we hear. On one thread, a newbie swore his new streamer was an improvement - I was castigated for pointing out that the streaming technology of his new streamer was exactly the same, down to individual parts in the signal chain, as his prior streamer from the same manufacturer (confirmed by manufacturer). |
You know that nice feeling you get when you walk into an IKEA store? The warm smell of cinnamon wafting from the oven? Except the only ovens in IKEA’s kitchens are the microwaves with which they nuke horsemeat meatballs made in Slovakia. Many people aren’t even conscious of the cinnamon aroma being piped into the store entrance area during business hours, but it still registers subconsciously and they’re feeling just a little bit better for it. Too many people hear sonic differences between different brands and price points of streamers to dismiss. Their ears are too well-trained (some of them, anyway) to explain away with confirmation bias. But, maybe they’re just hearing that warm cinnamon aroma. |
The human ear works in non-linear process, and can hear the smallest differences in the time domain too subtle to be accurately measured. In the auditory sciences, this is known as fine-grained temporal perception, or simply, ‘auditory acuity’. This does mean that human listening can be trained to hear nuance of timing difference that vitally impact how we hear the ebb and flow of music which resides not only in the notes and frequencies of what is heard, but the infinitesimal or broad spaces of time that separate them. What is vital here to to know that listening, as with seeing, touching, smelling and tasting, can be critically trained. Here are some references you can choose to read through - How We Hear: The Perception and Neural Coding of Sound - PMC https://developers.meta.com/horizon/design/audio-intro-localization/ If you believe that jitter is detrimental to digital sound reproduction, you have to acknowledge that you don’t really know the degree to which it is so, since the threshold of jitter affecting the timing of what we hear cannot be precisely measured. A streamer is basically a computer, and computers generate huge and incredibly small quantities of various sources of jitter. For you and others to say that you conclusively know the threshold at which jitter cannot affect timing couldn’t possibly define confirmation bias more clearly, whether through appeal to measurements or an unacknowledged inability to hear subtle difference. And I say ‘subtle difference’ not because the difference is subtle, only because it appears subtle from just one viewpoint. Learning how to listen is like learning how to ski - after all these years, the excitement I felt the very first time I skied Mount Hood in Oregon is no different from the excitement I feel about it today, forty one years later, and despite a completely different skill set. Imagine the beginner plowing on a groomer looking up at the expert flying down a black diamond - the beginner may be unable to see the subtle late initiation of turn, that tiny lack of edge control, the almost unnoticeable late transfer of weight. All that beginner can see is that of a small return past being that of an expert skier. Now put your mind into that of that advanced skier, knowing his or her weight is ever so slightly back, excited to achieve better flow with carving, through the offpiste, moguls or in perfection of that backflip. Every step forward, no matter how little, is no small return. You see, there is no end to our adventure, no end to what such endeavour brings. The law of diminishing returns only exists from a viewpoint of the beginner, not the experienced audiophile. While it is perfectly understandable that one is unable to proceed further due to financial constraints, it is not acceptable to heap scorn on those listening or skiing at a higher level of the adventure. This adventure of listening is the reason so many audiophiles resort to grandiose claims or hyperbole whenever they hear difference, it is due to the powerful effect that the ebb and flow of music has in us, and it is as much the pleasure in finding a piece of equipment that takes us up to a new level of realism, as it is joy in our having learned another skill in our journey of listening. Hyperbole should never be condoned, but it helps to understand that it only comes from the excitement of having experienced an entirely new facet in the journey of listening. Finally, if you could take a moment and carefully read through my earlier post, note especially the bit which says ‘Mdalton and some others cannot hear much of the difference between cheap and expensive streamers to make the expensive ones worth their while.’ - i did acknowledge you hear difference, just not enough to make a better engineered streamer worth your while. No misrepresentation there, big or small. I hope this has made sense. Do excuse me for sounding snarky at the end of my previous post - it was not intended, but I realise came off that way, upon a reread. In friendship - kevin |
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