Sound quality differences in streamers

So here’s why, IMHO, it’s “dumb” to pay $29k for the Antipodes:  Like other high-cost server/streamers, Antipodes talks about its superior isolation and noise reduction.  The reason for this is because there is no other credible claim they can make, because servers and streamers do not have a sound of their own.  They simply differ as to generation/removal of noise.  Do I think they are lying about their “galvanic isolation” or their “ultra stable clock”?  Nope.  But what do the data tell us about the results?  That you can buy a cheap server and separate streamer and get the same noise reduction.

Paul Miller at HiFi News is one of the only people that I’m aware of that runs consistent tests on streamers.  What he does is run jitter tests on the output from a dac connected to a streamer, and compare that to the same dac connected to a noisy computer.  He also compares the s/n ratios of the output (though they don’t publish as much of this data as the jitter data).  So here are the results for the Oladra (Oladra jitter/PC jitter, measured in psec):

Audioquest Dragonfly - 120/300  (snr - 104/94)

iFi Neo iDSD - 10/550 (snr - 110/110)

Mytek Brooklyn - 8/10(snr - n/a)

So are these good results? Absolutely!  Jitter is vanishingly low, and obviously dominated by the performance of the dac.  Same goes for s/n ratio.  But how does this compare to a well-engineered but significantly less expensive streamer?  Here are the results for the Volumio Rivo, which was about £1k when it was tested:

Audioquest Dragonfly - 135/300  (snr - 104/94)

iFi - 18/550 (snr - n/a)

Mytek - 8/10 (snr - n/a)

These results are virtually identical, and state of the art.  Miller even tested the Volumio with the dcs Vivaldi Apex, and it added no noise. Are there some other potential sources of noise not captured by these measures?  Maybe RFi/EMI, but there are very reasonably priced options available to handle that if that’s an issue in your system (e.g., going optical with one of the Sonore products).  

So that’s why I have this history of arguing against expensive server/streamer combos.  I mean if you want to own a luxury product for bragging rights, that’s cool I guess.  But where I object is when people get convinced by dealers and others that they have to own that luxury product to get optimal performance.  

Interesting. I have never purchased a single piece of audio gear after having looked at the specs (other than making sure a power amp has enough for the task). And, I’ve never rejected a piece of gear based on specs. I listen. And I purchase if it makes a noticeable difference and I reject if it does not. I’ve rejected far more than I’ve purchased including some rather expensive digital accessories and cables, etc. 

Reading through your post, it appears you’ve actually never listened to any of this gear. There is certainly plenty of eye candy in our hobby and I’m sure there is plenty of gear that does not perform to its promise or price. Indeed, I’ve heard some of it. But not only are you dismissive of those consumers who are looking to improve their digital chain, you are accusing every manufacturer who markets such gear as predatory, even though most of them have invested years and millions in capital pursuing better performance. Perhaps they understand something you do not. Perhaps they aren’t just following the money. Perhaps they remain curious as to “what if” and “why”. I, like many others, am grateful that there are those crazy innovators who explore, tinker and learn new things to improve understanding which then fosters new approaches. And I, like many others, are enjoying the fruits of those labors.

Keep reading your spec sheets. I’ll listen first, then read up and try to understand what I heard (or didn’t.). 

I’m fully on board with your analysis from a purely specifications-based standpoint. But the subject touches on something deeply human when it comes to consumer behavior around luxury items. Let me try my best to summarize it:

1. Aesthetics - using your example.  I could imagine / visualize the Antipodes Oladra might look nicer, slickier

2. Perceived quality / Justification biases - better design component, craftmanship, durability / reliability

3. Emotional value - Luxury items make them feel 'exclusive' and exciting to own

4. Social proof, symbol of taste and wealth.

Look, as I mentioned before, money is something we’re not born with, and something we can’t take with us to the grave. If one has it, spend it as one pleases — if one feels like it or is willing to.  It’s not really our business, although I do sometimes sincerely urge them to share their wealth with those who need it.

With respect to my streamer bona fides, I was an early mover to streaming 20+ years ago, well before I got back into vinyl (which was probably about 15 years ago now).  And with respect to listening to streamers, I’ve had 10(ish) different models of streamers over the years.  It is true that I’ve never purchased an uber-expensive streamer - putting aside the original Yamaha Musicast server/streamer, which was quite pricey for the time, as I recall - but that would be weird, given my views.  Having said that, I have listened to quite expensive streamers at dealers and at friends’ houses, including A/B comparisons to try to understand what we’re hearing.  Most recently I heard a subtle difference in a Wilson Sasha system where streaming was first thru the Simaudio 891 ($25k), and then where streaming to the 891 dac was handled by an Innuos Pulsar.  I thought I heard a subtle improvement in the latter case.  Why?  Well this particular dealer is quite good, and to his credit acknowledged it’s simply about noise.  You see, as great a company as Simaudio is, they still manufacture to a price point.  And including a convenience feature like an on-board streamer with their preamp/dac means they clearly have to make some compromises, and have probably decided not to invest even more to get that last nth degree of noise reduction.  Antipodes has a greater technical challenge because they decided to combine the server with the streamer, and that presents a more significant noise issue than just the streamer.  So in order to get state of the art noise performance in that use case, they charge $29k.  
 

Again, I’m not saying that the Antipodes doesn’t sound great, I simply object to the claim thst you need to spend that amount to get that level of performance.  You don’t.  In addition, I’m not averse to folks spending alot on their systems - I mean I spent $8k on a cartridge for god’s sake!  I’m also contemplating a pretty serious outlay ($50k or more perhaps) when I purchase my “end of days” speakers.  I guess my one dogma though is that crazy audiophiles like me should be advertent with respect to our purchase decisions, not delusional.  If you acknowledge you bought something for its looks and exclusivity, that’s fine.  Just don’t try to convince yourself , and others more importantly, that you had to spend that amount for performance.  To wit, my Koetsu was an emotional purchase - it was hand painted with Urushi lacquer and Koetsus were originally voiced by Sugano on his personally modified Garrard 401.  I mean, of course I had to have it, lol!

mdalton,

Again, value is determined by every individual. If you don't think you need to spend  "x" amount for a streamer/server, it's pretty simple...don't. I never said, that you or anyone had to spend a certain amount of money to get to a certain level of performance, so I hope your not directing your comments to me. I simply don't believe in judging people for how they spend "their own money".