I have an NAD C565BEE which sounds far more engaging than the Playback Designs....it's for the listener who want's to hear digits instead of music. |
Well I now have 350 hours on the Playback Designs player and the sound is much better. I still prefer the Modright Sony for it is more organic sounding. The Playback is leaning towards the dryer sound. We will see if 500 hours changes things. |
Mrtennis,
While I think your series of posts in this thread have been mostly mental masterbation, and thus unworthy of reply, one comment in your 3/18 post left what I think is a misimpression. My impression is the number who extol the virtues of the XA54000ES far outweighs that of those who highlight it's flaws.
Caveat: I'm a very satisfied owner of an unmodded XA5400ES.
db |
hi wesstborn:
i don't own a sony but have been considering a purchase. so far the lowest price for a new unit has been $1100. i am waiting to get lucky, and pull the trigger when one becomes avilable for under $1000,. i may not be so lucky.
actually a friend commented upon the fact that opamps in most stock cd players are not the best quality and replacing them can often improve the sound. the question is replacing the stock op amp(s) with what ?
i believe that the modwright mod includes a replacement of the opamps, but am niot sure. his mod is expensive--$1400.
this player has received many comments that extol its virtues, while others highlight its flaws, so i figure, if i buy the player, i would like to be protected by paying under $1000 for a new one, in case i don't like it.
i hope my comments are helpful. |
MrTennis,
Did your tech recommend an op amp to replace the existing op amps in the Sony?
I was told the the existing ones were of good quality.
Thanks |
Excellent points guys, regarding room issues....the room will get ya every time, if it isn't factored in and dealt with properly. |
Rgs92:
Headphone-based findings remove the room-related factors. and impose an entirely different set of factors. Kal |
Headphone-based findings remove the room-related factors. |
Yes, Zmanastronomy, that is the thing; on the Internet, no one knows that your room is a dog.
Kal |
Most of the time I read about how great this product is and how great that product is and I look at the people's systems making the review comment and they don't even have any room treatments in there music room.
How can they evaluate equipment when there room sounds like the Grand Canyon ?
If you have the best of everything in equipment and don't have a well treated room, your only half way there.
One can't hear much difference in power cords if there room isn't well treated.
I've heard the Sony in my room and it was a great CD player. Much better than anything I've ever heard.
I know that if it had the stock power cord on it it would have fallen short (shorter) to my ears compared to what it sounded like with a good quality PC.
I have heard some major improvments with PC's. I've also heard some major disapointment in them as well.
But evaluating a PC when every note is being echoed off of every wall is naive to say the least. |
Rfogel8, I've owned $4k power cords and $20K plus wires with many 6 figure systems over many years....my meager AC 1 has been around for years and the system I speak of is for my smallish sitting room. I did mention that what one hears is dependant on the individual, in other words, not everyone listens for the same things. Some aren't able to or simply don't put a priority on low level resolution or micro dynamic contrast...hell some wouldn't know the sound of a violin from a viola. Small improvements in a reference system are HUGE for the audiophile anyway! I've been to so called audiophile parties where the volume level barely reached that of a small am radio at 20 paces, and there was more hum in the system then musical content. Habits and priorities will determine alot of what is decided during ones evaluation of a given product. |
an inexpensive mod, i have been told by a tech, is to replace the cheap op amps in the sony.
i wonder what improvement will result, in absence of other mods ? |
Lula, JWM and I have made the same exact "upgrades" to our MW's as you; Audio Magic, new umbilical, NOS Mullard and Tungsols(black glass) and each change made for serious sonic improvements and were all worthwhile. That said, the "stock" MW still sounds fantastic.
You may well be right about the additional break-in time needed for the PD. It really does sound pretty ordinary at the moment but JWM has it running 24/7 and we're waiting to hear what happens. One of us will no doubt report back.
Dave_b, if your MIT power cord made a significant sonic improvement, that's great but in my experience and the experience of four 'phile friends who own very expensive systems, we're all in agreement, the sonic changes made by power cords are subtle at best and often not for the better.
All but one of us have dedicated 20amp lines powering our equipment. I have four; one for each mono amp, one for digital source and one for analog source. We've all tried various cords, some quite expensive, and often, we try them in each others systems. As I said, the consensus is, the changes are subtle at best.
My suggestion to anyone considering a power cord change, upgrade your power first. What I find interesting in your case, you spent more on your MIT power cord than on most of your other components. Some might find that odd.
|
I also own the Playback Design as well as the MW 5400. I have Dan's additional mods, Nichicon Caps, Bybees, Audio Magic pulse generator as well as the latest
umbilical cord. This adds about $1300. to the 2K standard mod. I've also upgraded the tubes with a Mullard rectifier and NOS Tungsol 6NS7s (I preferred these to Sylvanias), as well as after-market power cords. I have an after-market power cord on the PD as well. The MW is very good, extremely musical....the addition of Dan's umbilical cord was a surprisingly big improvement....more dynamics and vibrancy. However the PD just exceeds it in just about every way....the best digital I've ever heard and I've owned and heard quite a few of the "best". However the PD DEFINITELY needs 500 hours of burn-in. Read Fremer's review in Stereophile....a most unusual change in sonics during those 500 hours. I went through almost an identical series of sonic upheavals during that process....which actually made me doubt my ears! |
A great power cord CAN make improvements, but to what extent they effect ones perception of the sound is as unpredictable as the individual using it. An MIT power cord will address many aspects of powerline contamination, which will allow the component to deliver vastly superior performance in real world terms, such as better dynamics and dynamic contrasts, superior low level resolution and reduced distortion. Imaging and tonal accuracy are often discernible as well. Of course you don't have to believe ME...just arrange for an in home demo from Joe Abrams at Equus Audio online. |
I too am using a 14 gauge Belden on the MW and it sounds fantastic. I've always heard the benefits of upgrading interconnects and speaker cables but have never been impressed by power cords, and I've tried many.
Ain't no way a power cord is gonna cure what's wrong with the Playback Design. Maybe a couple hundred more hours of break-in but to suggest that swapping a power cord will somehow magically make the necessary sonic improvements strikes me as naive.
Like Dbphd, I see so many posts suggesting a power cord change to correct bad sound, it's laughable. Buy a component that sounds good in the first place and you won't have to worry about Anaconda sized power cords! |
I think the most common suggestion is upgrading the power cord. I have been a skeptic of this as an upgrade, but I added a cord recommended by my audiophile friends, a cord that looks more like a garden hose than a power cord. It may have made a difference, but not the kind of difference those who rave about such things would suggest. OTOH, changing to the XA5400ES from a DVP-S900ES made a big difference.
db |
It is time to update my digital (currently using an old faithful-heavily modded Pioneer Elite PD-65) with Michael Wolff carbon source power cord.
I am really considering the Sony unit, but would like to know if there are upgrades/mods available that are not an *additional* $2,000 - like the modwright?
With as much positive ink and as many pleased consumers as there are with the Sony unit, there seems to be very little info on less expensive upgrades. Maybe I'm just not in the [d-i-y community] know or I'm not looking in the [w]right place :-)
Can anyone suggest worthwhile upgrades/mods (and modders) in the $500 range? |
No I am using a Belden 14 gauge cord, but I am using the same cord on the Modright as well. |
Jwm.
Are you using the stock cord ? |
Rfogel is right. The Playback lacked body was two dimensional and brittle on top. I am putting the 500 hours on it and will report back. I have talked to several people who own the Playback and liked it right out of the box. This would be the first piece I had that went from bad to excellent. Never happened before we shall see. |
Dgarretson, great post!
I see this tread has been running for a while so I might as well jump in.
I'm one of those not so curious individuals who bought the 5400 and had it shipped direct to Modwright. I've heard several Sony ES players over the years and to my ears, for anything other than SACD, they just sounded OK. The 5400 may be a different animal but I doubt it.
I just decided I wasn't going to waste the time or additional shipping charges on a stock unit that I only purchased in the first place to have modded by Dan.
If you own a stock unit or some other brand that you think sounds wonderful, that's great but if you haven't heard the Modwright/Sony, don't assume it's just another decent sounding player to be compared with other $3-$4k players.
A good friend of mine who also happens to be a dealer(not Modwright), purchased a 5400 and had it sent to Modwright same time I did. He too is very impressed with the sound but like many audiophools, he's sometimes tempted by what he reads in the audio rags. In this case, he's been itching to hear the $15k Playback Design unit that's gotten a number of gushing reviews.
Well, last week he took delivery of a used Playback Design he found on the 'gon for a measly $9700. Such a deal! I went to his house Friday night for a listen, wondering as I drove there, what if the Playback Design sounds a lot better? Would I be willing to ante up for the improved sound? Probably not; I really can't find any nits to pick with the Modwright.
I get there and his system's all warmed up, both players feeding his VAC Sig. Mk2 preamp via balanced Siltech cables and the Modwright's making beautiful music. We listened to 5 or 6 tunes then switched to the Playback Design. Oops, the whole soundstage shrank. The sound went from 3-dimensional organic images to something that could only be described as 2-dimensional, lean and analytical. The music lost it's magic and all I could think was, the $15k player sounds like good digital but not at all believable.
I'm thinking, something's gotta be wrong here. I ask my buddy, how long's your system been on? A couple hours. How many hours on the player, is it broken in yet. He says he's the third owner but the guy he bought it from says it still needs breaking in. Hmmm.
So, after a few more hours of listening and going back to the Modwright, we both agreed, either the Playback Design needs a LOT MORE break-in or the audio rags have lied to us again!
I've been living with my Modwright/Sony for a couple months now and I'm still shocked at how good it sounds. I'm also shocked at how average the Playback Design sounded in comparison. I read a couple of the reviews and they do say it needs 4-500 hours to sound it's best but with my friend being the third owner, you'd think it would sound better than what we heard. Another friend of ours stopped by for a listen a couple days ago and while he really likes the Modwright, he was less than impressed by the Playback Design unit.
Now, I'm not saying the Modwright is the best player out there but in my experience, you're gonna have to spend a lot more than the $3300 or so for the Sony and the mod, to get anything near the sound quality. I'm so impressed, I'm looking into a spare laser, just in case! Dan tells me, it's about the only thing that's likely to ever go bad. |
Just a sidebar here, I owned the 5400 and then Modwrighted it...just great! Recently I picked up an NAD C565BEE for my sitting room system...I'm blown away! Very fleshed out and sexy sounding with weight and authority..sweet highs. If SACD is not a priority then this could warm your soul for redbook! |
It would be interesting to line up the XA5400 against the $1000 Marantz SA8004 (which just got a rave review in TAS), and say the new Oppo 95 when it comes out. in general, I find shootout type reviews (i.e. line up a few contenders in a component/price class) more intersting than single component reviews. It seems single components 75% of the time are assessed "the best I ever had in my system" at this pricepoint, while a shootout forces the reviewers hand. |
WOW, I don't come look at the digital section here much lately. Pretty intense group. Mostly been reading at the vinyl forum. I'm trying to decide which way to go with my vinyl, or just dump it and move on, time will tell. To many hobbies and not enough time or money. But the best CD/SACD player in the world for me is my NAD Master Series M5, as it's the one I own now ! Are there better most likely, but if it's not here I don't speculate or care. I know secretly there are many people who love thier Master Series M5, so I know I am not alone in thinking it is a decent sounding machine. World beater who knows who cares.
To show I can be crazy, intense, and can add food into an audio discussion, I am going to BW3 for wings (wild sauce second hottest) and chips with cheese. And I am doing this against my and my Doctors better judgement. |
if you want an orange, why eat an apple ?
the stock sony soes not have the facility to alter its sound, so there is no value in listening to the 5400. |
I think the best analogy is Pizza, because it is an "upgradeble" dish. Say you love Pizza quatro stagioni. So you find this Pizzeria Danielo which has stellar online reviews and four Zagat stars to boot. Of course, on a first visit you order the $20 quatro stagioni. You would not dream of trying the undoubtedly excellent $10 pizza margarita first to see if the base, cheese and tomato sauce is to your liking. |
"you want to go out for a Italian dinner on a $50 budget and are thinking of getting saltimbocca at Restaurant "Mama Sonia". Would you order their $20 pasta dish first to make sure their cooking is OK, and get the saltimbocca on a second visit? No. You order the saltimbocca and if you don't like it you never come back."
It is a mistake to order steak in a hamburgher joint. When gauging any restaurant except for the very best, I try to find out what they do well, which is usually something modest. In this sense the stock Sony is a hamburger and should be enjoyed as such. However at a better restaurant like Casa Dan Wright the Sony is just an ingredient. One is inclined to trust Dan's experience on this a priori. |
why do the most expensive cd players and dac (Esoteric, dcs. EMM, etc.) in the world not use tubes? I love tubes, have many, but for some reason the best players I have heard don't seem ti use them - and yes, I do like them. |
ss and the classic tube sound do not sound the same. if i prefer a certain coloration, i am confident that the sony doesn't have it.
i would be willing to do a test comparing the stock sony 5400 with the modded sony and bet that i would prefer the modded sony.
in life when making choices it is too time consuming to listen to all products.
there have been very few solid state prodducts i have heard that i would want to own. thus my confidence is that the sony would be bought and modded, without listening to the stock version.
kal would you take me up on my wager. i happen to prefer a tube flavor using nos tubes. what is the purpose in listening to the stock sony ?
i will be able to criticize its flaws but that is a waste of time. i can't think of anything that i would learn that is of great value.
back to the garlic situation. i did not say every food should have a garlic flavor, only broccoli.
nor did i say anything about recordings.
obviously a classic tube flavor is like a tone control. changing the tubes changes the sound. you can't change the sound on a stock sony unless you make some change to the player. |
I'm with mr Tennis on this one. He is not necessarily buying the "mod". He is in the market for a tube player and has a budget of $3,500. So you look at the contenders in this space and a modded sony is one of them. He is not interested in a $1,500 solid state player.
In food analogy; you want to go out for a Italian dinner on a $50 budget and are thinking of getting saltimbocca at Restaurant "Mama Sonia". Would you order their $20 pasta dish first to make sure their cooking is OK, and get the saltimbocca on a second visit? No. You order the saltimbocca and if you don't like it you never come back. |
I'am a Master Gardnener and there are quite a few different types of Garlic and they all taste different.So unless you grow your own no way to know for sure what you are getting.Even if you grow only one type changes in the amount of sun and water it gets will change the flavor.
So how can you predict how it will taste/sound?
I have a Sony on the way and I will for sure listen to what I just purchased before even considering any other option. |
My older Simaudio Eclipse (2002 model) sounded more larger and dynamic. 5400 has great midrange, compared to Sim, its thin sounding. For the price 5400 good, but more expensive players better.
Even CD on Sim sounded better to me than SACD on 5400. Just my opinion. This is a subjective opinion. Others may feel differently.
Bill |
And, now, of course, this interface prevents me from editing or deleting my posts despite being logged in. So, I guess, both posts will remain despite some redundancy.
Kal |
Well, now we are getting to some gnarly stuff. There is no way you can be certain that a particular device sounds one way or the other without listening to it. You may say that you know it has no tubes and that is sufficient. However, I maintain that it is not.
There are ways to "voice" a component to sound one way or not if the designer so chooses. Bob Carver demonstrated that he could make a SS amp sound like a tube amp. Conversely, the SF Line3 and Power3 that I once owned sounded more like SS than tubes.
In addition, to go back to the garlic analogy, you are assuring that every disc you play on this modded player will sound a particular way which, although you may like that flavor, will obscure the subtler differences among your many recordings. Sort of like having the garlic obscure any other flavors that the chef might be inspired to create. Of course, you can say you don't want to taste anything but garlic. If so, that's a limited palate. |
Feh. I just wrote a lengthy riposte but the clumsy interface here erased it while I looked up some other info. So, let's leave you with your last word and the taste of garlic in your mouth. I'd rather let the chefs (performers and recording engineers) ply their art than eat the same thing all the time.
Kal |
hi jylee:
i was only talking about sauteed garlic. no where did i say that i liked garlic on everything.
my point was to answer kal's suggestion to listen to a component first, before modifying it and i suggested that if i wanted a tube sound, via a buffer or gain stage, e.g., there would be no need to listen to the sony.\
that is, if i was trying to create a flavor which a component does not have , there is no need to listen to it to determine that it does not have the flavor. |
Do I think the Sony is the best SACD player under $10k? No.
But, I have heard one in my system and it sounded very good. It out performed my current CDP and I'm going to buy one soon. |
Your analogy suggests because you like sauteed garlic on your broccoli, you'll put sauteed garlic on everything, like on chocolate and ice cream, before tasting them first without garlic. Yuck. |
hi kal:
if i want sauteed garlic on my broccoli there is no need to taste the broccoli if it has not been sauteed in garlic.
with respect to the cd player, if i want a tube flavor, and i realize that a cd player has no tubes, there is no reason to listen to the player. ss and tubes do not sound the same. |
aqua_bleu_one 88.7% Positive feedback formerly ("Papi Chulo"), on E-bay is still ripping folks off, for one simple reason...
Greed. And the "subjective" truth.
Audio is so much "subjective", the correct written review, of
a product, sends the Audio world running like the "bulls" in Spain.
The Sony 5400ES is such a player,it got a few "flowery" reviews, and the next thing you know, 4 pages later, and folks are still arguing that it is the greatest Sony Player ever made. NOT!
Sadly, my XA-7ES, simply walks away, when it comes to making "music", the 5400ES, is ALL "hype", but as I said, let a few people "blow smoke up your butt", and you start thinking, "maybe there is some truth to all the talk".
aqua_bleu_one(a.k.a. Papi Chulo) still manages to get idiots to fork over funds often in excess of $180k, in 12 months, 9 Negative feedback,3 in the last 6 months, 1 in the last MONTH! Why would any human risk sending a dime to this crook?
The "chance" of possibly owning a piece of Audio, that is "touted" as awesome!
I know a guy that is guilty of buying a 5400ES, only to be so pissed off, he is beyond the ability, to write of his shame, from listening to the "hype".
He fell for it when Adcom first came on the scene, I bought an ES integrated amplifier, that laid waste to his Adcom.
He tried to drive 16ohm Electro-Voice speakers, the Adcom shut down, my Sony drove them with ease. But Adcom, was claimed to be the greatest thing since "sliced bread".
The Sony ES integrated amp. is still going strong.
If Audio, was "objective", he would have never fell victim to the "hype", I tried to warn him, he even admitted my XA-7ES sounded better, (actually that is what was the last straw) when a product is Newer, by over 10 years, you expect it to sound better, WRONG! Not in Audio.
If we were talking cars, and speed, that is "objective" a Saleen Mustang, will smoke a Stock Mustang, no surprise there, but Audio, is not at ALL "objective", most people will weave a clever tale, about a piece of equipment to sell it, knowing full well, it is not ALL they say it is.
2 well known magazines, have sold zillions of issues, pushing stuff that failed to live up to what they claimed it was. Why?
Because many Audiophiles, are "greedy", and are always thinking that "the grass is greener", instead of being satisfied with what they have.
Everyone in this forum, has sold something that they wished they had back.
But they "heard" this, or that, is the "bomb", so they rushed out, and sucked it up, only to be very upset.
I like ladies to listen to stuff, because they rarely lie.
Most, just call it as they hear it.
We compared my XA-7 to the venerable 5400, and the ladies, were in 100% agreement, the XA-7 just made "music", the 5400 is just, well... the last player Sony sent us. Sorry.
Listen with your "ears" instead of with your "eyes", and you will enjoy music much more.
I hate seeing a grown man cry.
Oh, and my Marantz SA-11S2 with the Level 2 Underwood Mods.
is in another league all together.No comp.
I Love Music! |
I think the analogy does you a disservice in that it clearly implies applying that particular color/flavor before tasting the dish.
Kal |
hi kal:
consider the food analogy.
if you prefer a dish with a certain flavor, you don't tate it without that flavor. rather, you ask for the flavor.
in audio, if you prefer the flavor of tubes, there is no need to listen to the stock player before sending it out for modification. |
I would have thought that one would want a decent period of experience with a product before even considering a modification.
Kal |
Kr4, "I've never understood that"
I would have thought you burn in the stock unit first,that way you do not to subject the tubes to the added hours? |
Kr4, "I have never understood that."
Amen! |
(note: i never heard the stock unit...it went straight to MW)
I have never understood that. Kal |
He's busy listening to music. |
i've purchased the 5400, and the modwright mods.
i've since purchased the service manual and four spare laser assemblies.
i believe it will be staying a while...it replace an EMM CDSA-SE
(note: i never heard the stock unit...it went straight to MW) |
hi prsnccarty:
are you objecting to thinness in the redbook mode or the sacd mode ?
or are you suggesting that in both modes the player sounds thin ?
you may be saving me a purchase by voicing your comments.
then again, a modwright mod might solve your problems. |
