I don't think it's the amp running out of juice. I've had the same Bryston 4BST driving other speakers including the Charios with the dark thick midrange. The Amatis are very efficient speakers, and if anything should require less power. There are a handful of songs which does sound very nice on the Amatis, in fact the songs which sound good sound sublime! And with those songs you can drive the very loud indeed. However with 90% of my music, it just dosen't sound right at all, there just seems to be a huge lack in midrange.
One thing is clear from everyone's response though. That the Amatis are more or less a faultless speaker especially in the midrange, so the problem I'm having lies somewhere else. Looking for that somewhere else is the tricky part. |
At the moment I'm finding the midrange in the Amatis very thin and light. I'm not sure if they are meant to sound like that or not. Especailly at higher volumes They are not meant to sound like that. If anything, you should be getting a slight prominence in the lower mids /midbass and the upper mids (hence yr perception that there is "LESS/LACK of" vocal midrange) It reads like your amp is running out of juice or s/thing else upward in the chain or all of the above... At low or moderate volumes the Amatis actually sound alright. Amplification matter, clearly. Just borrow another amp with higher output specs and try it out. Cheers |
My Thiel 7.2 is not lean at all with great midrange and full body. It can sound very thick, depending on the gears you have. I suggest tube preamp and high power solid state with the Thiel 7.2. So have you tried anything yet to tweak out the Amati? At the moment I'm finding the midrange in the Amatis very thin and light. I'm not sure if they are meant to sound like that or not. Especailly at higher volumes. I recall my brother used to have a system with SF Extrema driven by Krell KSA300, Levinson pre, and Wadia cd, and the sound was exceptional. I'd had hoped the mid of the Amatis would be the same if not better. My main point is if the Extrema can work so well with solid state, then I shouldn't have to move to tube with the Amatis. I know it's stubbon, but there are enough speakers out there that I'm sure I can find one which works the way I want with solid state gear. However it sounds like neither the Amatis or the 7.2s match those. I have tried positioning the speakers as others have suggested, but it made a difference to the imaging, but not really the tone. I think I also have a problem with the room. At low or moderate volumes the Amatis actually sound alright. I just want to play it very loud, which I recall the Extremas were able to do. I guess I'll keep looking. I quite enjoy the road to finding the ideal system. |
My Thiel 7.2 is not lean at all with great midrange and full body. It can sound very thick, depending on the gears you have. I suggest tube preamp and high power solid state with the Thiel 7.2. So have you tried anything yet to tweak out the Amati? |
Could try one of the Pass X.5 or XA amps. The friend with the Amati will be coming to check out my X350.5 this week. He had contemplated about buying a X250.5. Will see what he has to say after he gets a chance to hear the X350.5.
FrankC |
Positioning, room treatments and other tweaks are not going to get you to what you have asked for. Why not just borrow a good tube amp, try it and report back? At least you would know whether you are giving up the type of sound you may be asking for in exchange for solid state. I've heard many solid state amps and although I'm sure a musical one exists, as a generalization IMHO what you are asking for is associated with tubes. |
Henry_chinaski: I set them up myself. I should've made it clear that I bought them used here in New Zealand. I have tried different positions, but hasn't helped. Adjust speakers according to midbass energy (if you haven't already). Start by bringing them close together (~35% of room width, centre of woof-to-woof) until you hear bass energy, not muddiness. Then start playing with toe-in carefully focusing on upper-midrange reproduction quality. (i.e. if the sound is "hard", spitting, hi-end ear-piercing, you're off.) Normally, you should be able to get a reasonably seemles sound with some low-mid /upper bass prominence. The spkrs go loud with low distortion -- but NOT very loud (distortion starts setting in + the required energy fm the amps is high). The 7,2 are nice spkrs -- but I heard them on the fly, and certainly not in comparison to the SF. Can't say much. They weren't playing very loud either, I assume by owner's choice rather than ability... Cheers |
Henry_chinaski: I set them up myself. I should've made it clear that I bought them used here in New Zealand. I have tried different positions, but hasn't helped.
Sounds like the Amatis really need a tube amp. I have a big dislike for tube amps. Sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone, but personally I much prefer a SS amp to tube. Having said that, if this is the case with the Amatis, then it looks like I may have bought the wrong speakers. But from the replies, it looks like the Thiel 7.2s would actually make things worse not better ... Audio bliss is hard. |
Puunda,
one thing that Amati's are famous for are the Midrange!
IMHO you should get 1) Tube preamp, caryslp05 mentioned before is a good choice among others and 2) Yter speaker cable made from Sonus's master Franco Serblin. Then experiment with the room and placement a bit. Finally in the future if you can upgrade to a better digital source.
As for the Ursa major you mentioned, theese are by far dark, veiled, hollow sound speakers very romantic and a good match with razor solid state amplifiers on the other hand Amati is hall of fame speaker for life (IMHO).
So the message is ----> fine tune them a bit and good matching, start with the pre unless you use your theta processor as pre then upgrade to tube amplifier(Cary 211, Bat, CJ,....etc). |
Did you set them up, or the dealer? The reason I ask is that proper placement really makes them shine. Sumiko, the importer of the sonus faber speakers teaches their dealers how to how to set them up according to the room they are in. It takes a little while, but is well worth the time. If not, give Sumiko a call. I can speak from experience. They really dialed mine in. Good luck. |
I listened to the Amatis in a dealer set up. I think Air-tight tube amps were used and the sound was quite good with actually very nice midrange as well. It wasn't thin at all. I guess you just have some system matching issues.
That said, I am currently using 7.2. Thiel 7.2's sound is different. Overall, it is a very balanced speaker. It has better dynamics and bass impact IMO. Yes it can sound analytical depending on components upstream as it is also a very revealing speakers.
I agree with others that you should try different electronics first and dont' buy the Thiel without audition. You either love or hate Thiel sound, but not in between. |
Hi
I had demo session with the amatis and the really seem to be very picky with the components that is used to drive them
with my former STOCK tact millennium the sound was unbareble.
Also heard it with gryphon solid state amp and it diddent sound very good eather.
The amatis like tube amps or maybe somthing like class A accuphase amp.
I think with the right amp the can bring you to tears to the eyes
the have been in my mind ever since i heard them.
The amatis a not very forgiven in the higs thats for sure .
If i where you i would try them with a good tube amp before selling them.
eny way just my 2 cents.
regards |
If a balanced, seamless, presentation with clean and very detailed (never thin in my system) midrange is what your after the 7.2s would be worth keeping on your list. |
Puunda,
I've heard the Amatis many times and I own the Guarneris. I believe FrankC is right on the money. Sonus Fabers are capable of wonderful midrange. IMHO, borrow a really good tube preamp and amp and perhaps a different source and report back. I realy don't think Thiel will get you in the direction you are asking for and I'd look at the electronics before the room. Also, Cardas Golden Cross is not the right cable. If you want to try a Cardas cable, try the golden reference - it is much better. But, you may not need the cardas as a tone conditioner with a good amp and preamp, which the Amatis can really make good use of. |
Thanks for the reply guys.
I'm currently using a Bryston 4B ST, Theta Digital Casa Nova Processor, and Theta DaVid Transport.
I used to have a pair of Chario Constellation Ursa Majors, and using the same electronics, that had a dark rich warm mid range which I really liked. But the imaging was not there for me, and clarity was very lacking. On the other extreme I had a pair of B&W N802, and that had amazing clarity and imaging, but the mid was very thin to me.
The Amatis have been the best balanced speakers I've had a chance to listen to. But after some comments, it sounds like I might be barking up the wrong tree with the Thiel 7.2s.
I guess I'll keep my Amatis and will look elsewhere for my problem. |
I'm a Thiel 1.6 owner and I think the 7.2 produces almost faultless sound (with about 400 clean watts/side).
In your case I'd experiment with digital corretion or room treatment. If that doesn't work, try the Thiels. |
Don't know anything about Thiel speakers but my Amatis produce mid-range "to-die-for". I'm using Cary SLP-05 pre-amp, Cary 306 SACD and a pair of Cary V12i Monoblocs...all tube gear. |
A friend of mine has a pair of the Amatis and I don't find them to sound as you describe. I am fairly familiar with them. My first thought reading your post is that it might be a system synergy issue. As per Brunogolf, what's in your system? My friend power his with a Sonic Frontier Line3 SE & a BAT VK-75.
I have been listening to Thiel speakers for over 12 years, first with the 2.2 and then 3.6. If anything, I think the Thiels would have a more analytical sound than the Amatis, everything else been equal. So swapping out your Amatis with a pair of Thiel 7.2 might not be the right direction.
FrankC |
what electronics are you using? You might use Cardas golden Cross biwire to warm things up a bit. |
