So I bought the Willsenton R-800i
After I bought the Klipsch Cornwall IVs recently it became apparent quite quickly that to make it really shine it needs a tube amp to drive it. (For me at least.) After doing some (=endless) research, considering the options (budget, shops nearby carrying models I´m interested in, etc.) and also asking around on this very forum I decided to go for the Willsenton R-800i. None of my friends here shares my excitement for audio stuff or even has a comparable system, so what´s now in my living room is the one tube amp I know. And I´m delighted. Together with the speakers it gives the music the presence and glow that I so desired.
Of course I can tell that there´s more potential in this amp and I already exchanged some of the stock tubes. There are more on the way and I can´t wait to test them. For now my financial means are a bit limited so I´m not ordering Western Electric and Takatsuki 300Bs just for the sake of comparing them. In fact I´m waiting with those a bit and go for the others first.
Searching online I find a lot of information on English language forums. Somehow tube rolling is not discussed as much on the German forums I checked though – and out of curiosity (and because they were pretty cheap) I went for both West- and East-German ECC83s and a fairly random mix of other tubes from the US and the Soviet Union. I´m waiting for them to arrive and not being able to read about some of them it raises my curiosity how they will sound. Maybe crappy, maybe not so bad, maybe even very good. I´ll see. Tube rolling will take some time and I don´t mind. The amp is there to stay for quite a while.
There´s an exhaustive thread on the Willsenton amps and fitting tubes here but since I found people´s comments on this forum so helpful I´m looking forward to hear from you. I´m open for tube recommendations and would like to hear anyone´s experience with the Willsenton R-800i. Or maybe someone has questions?
As for the tubes:
805 – stock replaced for Cossor
300B – stock
6SN7 – stock replaced for Sylvania GTBs, waiting for Fonon NOS (Soviet, 1979, a bargain for 10€)
12AX7 – stock replaced with current Mullard model, waiting for West German ones from AEG and Telefunken, East German ones from RSD and Funkwerk Erfurt (both used) and also Sylvania JAN 5751 NOS (a military model)
5U4G – stock, waiting for RCA NOS black plate and Svetlana NOS „Coke Bottle“
Great to read your post @chmaiwald, I recently bought the Wellsenton R800i 805 as I needed a larger wattage than the 300B I have, I also thought the tube was 805 (A have a few pairs of GE and RCA NoS 805), only after I got the amp did I realise that the output tube was not the same. But everything else is top notch and the sound is at the desirable level. Lots of tube rolling also. Enjoying Tube Rolling again, after 10 years of remission.... |
@chmaiwald , I highly recommend REL's T line. Very persuasive, musical subs. |
@jbhiller I´m not using a subwoofer yet but I´m waiting for a reply from a dealer who is willing to send me two to compare (Rel T/7x and SVS PB 1000 Pro). The EQ I´m using is basically only to push the lows a bit. It also shows that the Cornwalls lack in that area (for my taste) but first and foremost it so much helps to give depth, just as you say. I´m hoping a sub will do that to an even bigger extent and that it will give the recordings I find (for lack of better words) crowded more room to breathe. I like Albini´s productions for capturing a live feeling and directness which does not automatically translate into pure sonics as can be found on recordings considered good by audiophiles. You said muddy... Maybe I myself have to listen to it with open ears again, I´m such a fan. As for Nirvana: I find it hard to tell which mixes I like better, the re-mixed versions of „Heart Shaped Box“ and „All Apologies“ are just so familiar, those are the version I came to like. Albini´s are also great, the roughness and all. As far as I know it´s just these two that were fiddled with, the rest is all Albini. |
@chmaiwald , Wow, I went back and listened to that Neurosis album. I wouldn't blame the amp for how this album sounds. The production seems intentionally nasty heavy. I don't listen to much metal or heavy punk though. Also, I'm in the minority camp on Steve Albini. I don't enjoy his production as much as others. I always found it interesting that Nirvana held back their two radio hits on In Utero from Albini. I think (sometimes) his engineering and production sound muddy and confused but that's just me. I understand, I think, what you are saying about stuff sounding better when music is simpler (less going on). That's kind of a truism for all systems on some level. Do you use a subwoofer system? The reason I ask is it can provide depth of soundstage and allow the highs to sounds more delineated and less harsh--just by filling out the lowest octave. The CW IVs are not really a big bass speaker despite their size. |
@jbhiller First of all: Thank you so much for your elaborate description of the characteristics of the amp and its pairing with the Cornwalls. I´m lacking both language skills and ways to put into words in my own to properly describe what I´m hearing. What you write very much reflects my impressions. And I´m very happy to hear that the R-800i holds up well compared to other amps. Most importantly though it´s good to hear that you are having a great time with it and that you find your money was well spent. Right now I´m away from home for almost two weeks and can confirm that this amp makes you want to come back and enjoy it. I can´t wait to listen to it again playing music I like. Personally I find the volume jumps when using the remote totally ok, but that may be because with the Rotel I had before the jumps were even bigger. As an obect it feels a bit too clunky (metal, heavy, just three buttons), but then again I stopped counting how many times I lost the tiny remote for the Apple TV – something that never happened with this one. I assume you have not started tube rolling yet, right? This can add yet another level of sound quality. And another question: To me the sound becomes a bit (for lack of better words:) crowded once the music gets dense and more wild. Like when I play some rock music with crashing drums and lots of distorted guitars. Sure, it may be because of the recording, but the difference is striking. Maybe the amp is just too good at reproducing material where there is not too much going on soundwise (ambient, jazz, folk, etc.), I don´t know. Do you have the same experience? Or is that normal? If you know a rock record that also sounds nice when the action is on please let me know so I can compare. (But please no 1971 dutch first pressing or anything like that, when it comes to music buying I´m not that audiophile.) |
Status Update - I'm 3 weeks into owning this amplifier. It's a problem; on the days I'm not in the office or on the road (which has only been 2 during the holiday period), I'm getting little work done because I'm constantly listening to music! I'm going to estimate that I'm 150-175 hours into this amplifier and things should be fairly run in by now. Please note that I'm in a fairly good size room (23' long x 16.5' wide x 10' tall). I use efficient speakers (Klipsch Cornwalls--modified crossovers (only upgraded). I've had a few amazing late night vinyl sessions (Technics 1200GAE, Benz Micro LPS/Kiseki Purpleheart/Dynavector X20 or something, Manley Chinook). But, most of my listening has been using a Roon endpoint (Intel NUC) feeding a Marantz Ruby DAC/SACD player voiced by Ken Ishiwata. The amp reveals details that I haven't had in my room with other tube amps. Even my Elekit 300B (with Lundhaul transformers and VCaps) doesn't do what this guy can do. One of the particular characteristics of the sound with this pairing is the size of the sound image. It is downright massive. I've never complained I needed more holography or a bigger picture. Sure, who wouldn't want more? With the Willsenton 800/805 the height of the sound seems to reach up towards the ceiling. With certain production, the sound can start to wrap around me a bit from the side walls. It's quite something to experience. The low end is so nicely defined and plump that I can easily tune my two REL subs right into where the Cornwalls start to drop off (probably upper 30hz if I had to guess). As a hobbyist musician, I have developed a decent ear figuring out songs and tones. This amp allows me to walk right up to the RELs and dial in the crossover and volume so easily and the resulting sound sounds seamless to me. Seamless. So I should qualify, if you believe the above is possible and can sound great (the subs do NOT sound like separate instruments), my opinions of the amp are probably bolstered in the favorable direction because I've never been able to tweak the subs this well and I'm confident they were dialed in pretty nicely before. The midrange clarity can make my head turn like my dog's when she hears something unexpected. It's caused me to listen more and more and more again. I honestly could not be happier with this amplifier. I'd pay twice the price for it. It's taken a bit of the Cornwall's watercolor-level of detail and tightened it up --yet not to a level that sounds like boring hifi. It still sounds like live or the real thing...just more so. The power of the amp is a really sweet match for my room and setup. I've never been happiest with low power SET amps and these speakers because even though I don't usually listen all that loud, I have had trouble getting an 8 watt 300B amp to make them open up. I had a Primaluna Dialogue HP integrated that sounded best with KT150s and these speakers but it never romanced me (great amp though). A Carver Crimoson 275 did a better job of adding some harmonic magic. I adore a Ken Ishiwata voiced Marantz Ruby (shocked me as it is Marantz's own Class D topology), which sounds lovely and brawny with the CW IVs. But alas, the Willsenton R800 has been the ticket for me. I don't know if I could otherwise afford to get to this place without it. Would I be looking a Shindo, Jadis, Triode Labs? Soooo pricey--maybe someday. I really thought that I'd be itching to upgrade the power supply filtering film caps and the coupling caps. I doubt the Willsenton re-badged caps are junk and I'd bet they are something fairly decent. Whomever voiced this amp did a wonderful job. I cannot recommend trying this amp out enough for yourself. I wish I had more speakers around right now to play with so I could report differences. I only have a pile of electronics right now in what my wife calls "the museum." Nonetheless, I'm content to just keep listening. I want to shake the hand of the engineers and people who made this amp. I have just one nit to pick-- the remote, while I love it's feel and simplicity, makes too big of jumps in volume attenuation or increase with the motorized pot. Oh well. If anyone is in the Chicagoland area and doesn't have Craigslist-Killer sensibilities, you're welcome to PM me to swing by for a listen. |
Interesting! I'm still getting familiar with the amp. I've been listening to gear for decades so I'm pretty humble--I know that I need to really know the gear before I can truly say what's going on with real confidence. I think the tubes they ship this thing with are very, very good. The Russian 6sn7 are pretty great. They have big, deep and well defined bass. The cost of 300Bs and 805s is making me think it might be better to upgrade the capacitors in key locations. That said, you cannot tell what make they are due to the wrapping Willsenton puts on them. Many manufacturers do this. And, it's not always a sign they totally cheaped out. I'm thinking that dumping $200-$500 on the two caps linked to the gain stage/6sn7s will make the most difference. That's a reasonable figure compared to upgrading the driver 300bs. For now, I'm still running this guy in and enjoying every minute. This is a special amp indeed. I have an audiophile buddy coming over tomorrow to let him have at it. I respect his opinion. My ears are telling me this is a near reference level amp. Even with reduced labor costs, I don't know how Willsenton's margins can be that high given the parts quality. |
Thanks for pointing that out. For whatever reason on the website you link to I´m onlyn shown three Linlai 805s, while it even says there are 4 results. Strange.
Here I found the 805 I think you are talking about: |
@jbhiller I´m not at home at the moment, so I can´t say with a 110% certainty, but I´m pretty sure they´re not Linlai. I haven´t noticed the star shaped thing at the top and as far as I remember the socket is golden – just like the PSVane Hifi. I´d also be surprised if they put in a 450$ pair instead of a 140$ pair. Retail prices of course, but still. Maybe they couldn´t get hold of the PSVane and to fulfill the order took Linlai for yours? If so, congratulations! |
Chmaiwald, I'm wondering if the stock 805s in the Willsenton R800i 805 are actually Linlai tubes. The reason I think that is some Linlai tubes, and their 805s, have a star shape at the top of the tube structure. Take a look at the photos here of Linlai 805 offerings and there's a star at the top: https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/product-category/shop_by_tube_model/805/ Do yours look this way? |
@jbhiller Yes, I think you are saving money not buying the Cossors. And the PSVane Acme really shine but they do cost a lot. Luckily we won a court case this year about a faulty installation. It dragged on for years but in the end the decision was in our favour and the other side paid in time. Otherwise I would´ve had to save much longer for these and the even more expensive 300Bs. My limited experience now is in line with what I read elsewhere: The expensive ones do stand out. So far I have not read about a cheaper secret contender. That´s different from the 6SN7 and 12AX7 positions, where even I could name some that can make you very happy for cheap compared to the expensive holy grails of (usually) NOS tubes. Thank you for passing on the info on biasing. That´s really helpful and I will try it out as soon as possible. I never bothered to try other values since I thought that 120ma is the only one I should aim for. Improving tube life and (possibly) the sound at the same time – irresistable. |
@chmaiwald , GREAT write up. Thank you very much. I know everything is system dependent and subjective but I'm going to pause on buying Cossair 300Bs based on what you say--may not be worth it. Also, fyi, I run two subs with CW IVs. You are correct in that CWIVs are not bass monsters despite their size. I love the sound of two subs tailored into the lower octave only. Finally, I heard back from China Hifi today. They said that 120ma is the maximum you should bias the amp. They have no recommendations on what's ideal. They said that 100 ma (where mine maxes out with full bias) is fine and you can go lower. As such, 120 ma is the limit. Your mileage may vary, but you may want to turn your bias down from 120 to (a) see how it sounds) and (b) avoid running the power tubes so hot to save life. My Carver Crimson has a recommended top end bias of about 100 ma, but Bob Carver says he likes the sound best at around 80ma. Interesting. At any rate, the manual uses ambiguous language and I have now confirmed that 120ma is not the recommended bias setting but the maximum bias setting a user should use. |
Finally I found the time to do some tube rolling. It really started bugging me when I wrote recently that I didn´t properly compare the new ones I´m using with the stock tubes for example. To cut a long story short: The tube combination I was running before still sounds best to my ears. Still some things I heard surprised me.
Bob Marley & The Wailers – „Natural Mystic“ Lee Morgan – „The Sidewinder“ Bastarda & Sutari – „Tam nad puszczaj“ Zbigniew Wodecki with Mitch & Mitch – „Wieczór już“ Phoenix – „Tonight“ (feat. Ezra Koenig) I left out rock music because I wasn´t in the mood today. Also Guided by Voices, which I was tempted to include just to see how well a decidedly badly recorded piece of music is handled.
The source was my old Rotel RCD02 CD-player, I took the EQ out of the chain. Speakers as always Cornwall IVs. 805 Cossor – instruments more seperated than with others, sound a bit sharper (quicker transients it seems) 300B stock Willsenton (I think PSVane Hifi) – slightly boomy and muddy compared to Elrog 6SN7 PSVane CV–181 T2 – very good, but sounds maybe a bit too thick, less laid back, nice highs and lows Next up will be another round with the 12AX7/ECC83s, maybe the rectifier too, but I´m done for today. Further observations: |
Hey @chmaiwald , I've been there! I had a Primaluna that could take a host of power tubes. I rolled, and rolled, and.... I got so lost but in the end I did figure out the takeaways. One thing that I learned was to listen to each tube swap and give them a fair chance. It's easy to like something because it cost more or is highly reviewed. But everything is system, room, and listener dependent. I have a lot of 6 Cifte 12au7s (French military) that were very pricey--~$120 a tube. They are amazing, yet in my system at that time I didn't need more air on top and things got to be too much. Great tube to waken an overly warm or too thick tube system. I learned this again with my Manley Chinook phono stage. There's nothing wrong (and soooo much right) with Electro Harmonix 6922s, which Manley uses in the stock units. For several years I neglected those tubes and created a stock pile of NOS stuff. When I went back to the EHs a couple years later, I realized why Manley selected them--very quiet, full spectrum equality, and so on. As to the Willsenton, my early opinion is the 300Bs are of great quality. They are drivers too so they aren't going to be as noticeable to most of us. The 805s--I'm not sure on these. The Russian version of 6sn7 are good but pretty bright and highlight the midrange focus of the amp. In my system, they are a touch too much. So, the only current "roll" I have going on is Philco- Sylvania 6SN7GTBs. They sound great! |
I must admit that I still have to find the time to put the stock tubes back in. I started rolling more or less right away when I got the amp so I can´t say for sure if the Cossor is better than the factory 805 (now I´m using PSVane Acme 805s). It´s really on my list to check again how the stock tubes and some others I used for a while hold up against the combination I´m using at the moment. It´s been giving me great pleasure for months now so anything that may be a step back takes time I prefer to spend otherwise. I´ll get to that at some point. But here´s two things I did do recently: Before I realized that the stock tubes are 6H8C too I bought two pairs of the same for cheap online and put them in. One was really good and I during the past couple of weeks I double checked: It´s difficult (for me) to tell them apart from the Sylvania GTBs I also own. Both very sweet. The other russian pair seemed bland in comparison. But that´s what I heard about old russian NOS: Sometimes the quality is really good, sometimes not so much. For $10-15 a pair it´s definitely woth taking a shot. Now I have to put the stock tubes back in to see how they hold up. Only today I received a JJ EC803S which I´ve been listening to for a while now. I´m curious because I heard praise for the ECC803S and that JJ is using the old Telefunken production machines. Sure it´s not broken in properly yet, but it sounds very nice already, less linear or analytical than the Telefunken it replaced. Let´s see how it will perform in the long run. As you can tell, I´ve been tube rolling rather impulsively. I should sit down and take notes like I did in the beginning when I tried the first few 6SN7s and 12AX7/ECC83s. Now that the 300Bs and 805s are properly broken in it´s high time to roll back and compare. I can be more helpful for the discussion then. |
@chmaiwald , Do you think the Cossor 805 is better than the factory 805 ? |
That is strange indeed. I hope it’s not the amp. Did you swap the other tubes? Today I exchanged the beautiful Svetlana 5U4G for a RCA. Whenever I started the amp recently there was a little blue flash in the Svetlana. Maybe that’s ok but I took the opportunity to swap. Do I hear a difference? I liked the coke bottle look better than this puny tube now, so the Svetlana felt better. That’s all I can say. |
@djspinner, you're welcome to pop by if you are in the Chicago area! |
@chmaiwald , thank you!! I should note (for whatever it might be worth) that I "upgraded" the crossover networks in the Cornwall IVs, damped the horn mid and horn tweeter, and installed proper binding posts. Some may hear a difference some may not. I used high quality Cardas solder, VCap ODOM caps throughout, Path Audio resistors, and some decent binding posts from Partsconnexion. I did not change any values/tolerances with the swapped parts. Also chmaiwald, I think you are spot on about the bias setting. Strangely, biasing it at ~90ma, as opposed to 120ma, did not result in things sounding sluggish, slow, or out of place. @charles1dad, you are wise. I have always enjoyed your feedback and guidance. There are folks on here that seem to want to litigate everything--you seem to be the opposite and are always helping and sharing knowledge! Thank you! @djspinner , you are correct! I hate to admit it. I'm guilty of making too many lateral moves. Maybe I just sell all these amps and buy a Jadis or Japanese tube amp! But my goal is not to have a big collection but rather find different pieces to allow different "sonic meals" if you will. No piece of gear is really ever perfect so I like to experiment and have different presentations.
Last night's listening session went way too late! 2:30 am. |
Getting familiar with the sound and character of the new amplifier and exercising patience, agree. Once you have established a good feel for your amplifier then you can decide what it is you want to sonically modify or tune via capacitors and tubes. At this initial stage you already like what you are hearing. And based on your description this is a solid and well-built amplifier, with a good foundation for future upgrades. You’ll be able to transition from good sound to very good/excellent sound with wise capacitor and tube changes. You’re in a good place.😊 Charles |
@jbhiller Good to hear that the amp arrived and is leaving a good first impression. As I said before, I have nothing much to compare it with and it´s good to hear already that the sound it produces is nice right from the start. Also: You also own Cornwall IVs, so that´s even better for me when you talk about all the sound details. Some of the tubes it comes with are really good. I have to roll back so to speak to really compare, I started exchanging very early. But from what I hear the JJ in the 12AX7 slot is really good, and from my own experience I can say that russian produced NOS 6SN7s can produce sound equally pleasing to the Sylvania GTBs I also own. But the quality varies and I hope yours came with a good pair. Both pairs of 300B and 805 should PSVane Hifi, so not bad either. The sloppily translated manual says: „805 adjust bias data refers to: 120mA“, I took it as a recommendation to have the 805s running at 120mA. It´s not been a problem to turn the screw to get them there. Apart from that there are also no other problems or signs that tell me I shouldn´t.
ps: Only yesterday I learned (= read online) that JJ is using the old machinery used for producing Telefunken ECC83s. So that´s a good sign. |
@chmaiwald , Where are you biasing those big kid 805s? The manual is vague with nebulous statements about biasing. I'm no stranger to hifi gear coming from China so this is not my first go around with translating Mandarin (likely) to English. Do you you have your 805s running at 120 ma? It scares me to crank them that high. Currently, I'm at 90 and the sound is big and fat with enough definition to sound live. Granted my speakers resolve well to sound like live music but not state of the art. |
The R800i 805 arrived today. What a big amp! Here are just a few initial thoughts. Moving this amp in the box is a two person affair. It is a beast Moving It. My friend had to bolt so I had to move it out of the box and onto a 36" tall space where it would sit all by myself. I was able to lift it solo, but I wouldn't want to move it across the room by myself. Something to note and think about. Build Quality. The first thing I noticed was the build quality. I used to own a top of the line Primaluna Dialogue HP integrated. If anyone is questioning whether the unit looks hokey or cheap in person, throw that aside. Same thing if we question whether it feels solid--it feels amazing. Everything about the build quality look, touch, sensory is as good or better than the Primaluna. (My personal opinion is I like its look better and it feels better). Note: I haven't opened it up yet and won't for a bit so I cannot comment on what's inside. The VU meters remind me a bit of Cary tube products--a lovely darker blue. The power, volume and control source switches are beefy and have a nice tactile feel feel when you move them. Sound Quality. I have only had it running under an hour. The first 30 minutes or so it sounded good but strained a touch in the midrange. Oddly, I thought the midrange is where this guy shines though. After it warmed up for about a half hour, it came into a nice stride. I'm only playing CDs right now during break in. I'll retook up my Roon NUC streaming situation for high res digital later. I'll also hook up my Manley Chinook phono stage and Technics 1200 GAE turntable with Benz Micro LPS cartridge later too. My first thoughts on sound is clarity, presence, and space. It does a great job of making a holographic picture, which keeps enlarging as I warm it up/break it in. As I type this, my head pops up to hear some great holographic soundstage, warmth, and (again) clarity. The midrange is very seductive to say the least. Another initial thought I'm having, after it got a good 45 minutes under its belt, is that the instruments have that "more instrumenty" sound I get with the 300B. Yet the 300B runs out of gas sooooo quickly. Operation. I'm a bit confused about the biasing of the big 805 power tubes. The manual says the following: "How to adjust the bias of 805A and 845? 805 adjust bias data refers to: 120ma" Yet the 805s came biased at about 105. I bumped them up (with no source and volume at 0) to 110 and it started to feel that the bias adjustment screw was running out of room. I "think" the manual may be saying to keep the 805s biased <120ma. At any rate, I turned the bias down to 90ma even and the midrange smoothed out and bass came on with more tuneful authority. I guess I will leave it at 90ma for now. I'm very intrigued by what I'm hearing. I've owned tube amps before and have built a few. I hated to sell the Primaluna but it just didn't match with my Cornwall IVs as well as other amps (Elekit 300B, Carver Crimson 275, Marantz KI Ruby). I know some love that pairing, but it always felt a bit bloated and the holography was not there. This amp has that in spades. Out of the box it's better (in this system to me) than the more expensive Primaluna. I recall that I reluctantly sold the PL because it just didn't win my private shootouts either on a short or long term basis. Loved that amp and the company though. So, like all of us I can be a victim of confirmation bias or warming up to a new sound signature. That said, I try to be very honest with myself and trust my ears. This amp sounds like it's going to be winner. It also looks super cool in my space. I may not leave the house for a couple of weeks!
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My knowledge of it is limited to what’s on their website.It uses different driver and rectifier tubes from the Frankensteins mono blocks and share a power transformer. My gut feeling tells me it is very good however. Israel Blume won’t present a new product unless he believes that it is worthy. Charles |
@chmaiwald , DHL just texted it will arrive 12/19! Early Christmas gift. I should get some great time to listen to it over the holidays. I'll hold off on rolling or mods for a good bit. Very excited! |
@mlsstl Even considering that 1970s $2.70 is about $20.70 in today's money, that´s quite an increase. I guess I´m far from alone wishing I had started getting into this a long while ago. @jbhiller Congratulations! It´s a nice piece of gear, that is inviting you to get the most out of it. I´m curious what your experience will be, rolling tubes and changing caps. |
Thank you @charles1dad . I'll try to hold off on tube rolling or cap swaps until I get it fully broken in and so that my ears acclimate to the sound first. |
Great thread with open minded and insightful comments. I had to do it! I just bought one of these amps. I’ll be posting about it once it arrives and I can break it in. I’ll most likely upgrade some critical film caps. I’d like to examine the filter caps on the B+. But all that should wait until I put it through its paces. I am very excited to try this amp out. I’ve had some nice tube amps in my room over the last 8 years so this will be fun. |
