The Amperex 7308 PQ US White Label or ( USN-CEP) are extremely close to the 6922 PW's, a little "fuller" in all ranges. The 6922 PQ White Label is also" fuller" in all ranges but seems to be less detailed with a bigger mid range,I don't find it as evenly balanced as the other two.
No marketing machine here just different perceptions and equipment.
Mr S- The tubes manufactured for the German telecommunications industry had to conform to certain performance specs. Kind of a parallel of our Mil Spec Standards(once upon a time). The CCa was a specially selected 10K hr, low-noise/well balanced triode ala the ECC801S, 802S, 803S. If Amperex made and exported the tubes for that application, they would have been a higher grade of the standard PW. I'd like to hear those myself.
I understand there is a 6922 type "Pinched Waiste" CCa Phillips" label tube,that is supposedly "The Holy Grail" of PW's.From what I have read.
Being that the CCa's were made for German Tele companies,is it possible that "these" Phillips labeled PW/CCa's are the same as the "non CCa" 6922 PW tubes made by Amperex,only labeled with a CCa for shipment to Germany(and having the same characteristics)?...They do command a much higher price.....
I wonder if the Phillips CCa PW's are any better,sonically,than the Amperex PW's(not labeled CCa),which are SO sought after,and rare?A particular "seller" claims they "are" better.
From all of the "amazingly interesting" info I am attempting to gather(thanks to many of "you" great hobbyists)my intent is to see if I can attempt to get a "bit" more from my phono reproduction chain,which has just gone through another significant update/mod,from Great Northern Sound(V-Teflon caps,and a new P/S mod).
I was already very happy,but since I have already gone through multiple comparisons of cabling,and almost anything I could come up with,I "assume" the new updates will move me to an even higher resolution.So my phono section should be "even that much more sensitive".
Basically(and I know I am getting a little "nuts",but that is the hobby....No?)I am very happy with my Siemens CCa's,BUT due to the high prices of actually buying,and trying many quality tubes(I have done that too,but still have unanswered questions about some varieties)I am simply trying to get as much good info(from guys like you)and filing it away,until I feel comfortable shelling out the moola!
John...EXTREMELY NICE OF YOU!!!!!...but I am not the type to accept an offer "that" generous!!!
I am getting the Huntley/GNS modded pre/phono next week,and "still" have to burn in the new Teflon caps(which take forever,from what i hear) so any comparisons I do will have to wait.
I'm also, supposedly, getting my new Phantom this week,and will have some work to do,with set-up...I'll need alot of time with "VTA" -:)....(just kidding)
I DO have a very dear friend who can(and will,with little prodding from me)lend me his Amperex U.S.6922 PQ's,and "they" are very low noise.Some time down the road I guess.
Anyway,I cannot express just how nice I consider your offer to be.
You're lucky I didn't pitch you to loan me the Hyper-phono -:)
Sirspeedy - I will be out for a week starting next week so I can let you have a listen to the pair of Amperex 6922 PQ PW white label I use in the Aria WV phono stage. Keep in mind, the tubes here are used in the MM stage as the WV uses SUT's for its MC input. But the WV phono playback is dead quiet with this tube pair. I can drop another pair of tubes in the WV and check the noise level of the Amperex in the ARC MCP-33 and get back with you on the results.
I wonder why no one has mentioned the Siemens E188CC/7308 as an alternative. The high end is just slightly relaxed(ala the PW), but the tube still retains the liquid/3D midrange of the CCa. A slightly more controlled bottom(but no loss of extension)compared to the PW. I've a pair of these as my "back-ups".
Tvad,well I don't know why you seem to be ruffled by my comments.It is not to criticise anyone.But you do appear to be irritated.Sorry!
I still don't see anyone(including you)who has made any thorough,or meaningful comparisons.Enough good input,to make someone spend the kind of money these tubes command.
You basically say, "they are both microphonic,and you would stay away from both".But,you prefer the PW's.
Sorry,but that just is not much of a comparison,and I am not trying to be a smart-ass!It is just not much to go by.
Hence my comments,which basically was meant as a lament,for the lack of "enough feedback"(besides the "I like A vs B" one liners,which seems to be the extent of info on the subject).
At the asking price of NOS PW's,for an individual to find out for themselves,I was hoping to see a bit more.....That's it!Why so peeved?
So I stand by my comments which "only" reflect my remorse,for the lack of meaningful input!
This has been a subject(the original posting question)that has interested me for years!Yet,even with all these responses,I feel I still am in the dark regarding which is ultimately the better tube(all things being equal).
I've had good success with Amperex 7308,Ediswan 6922's(CV 5358 and 2492),and now some primo CCa's( I keep the CCa's in my phonostage as of now)....The older dreck I've tried,I won't even mention.
My friend(with almost identical equip)has gotten ripped off with dreck Teles,and we were both underwhelmed with the low noise/good testing Mullards we tried.He also has superb Amperex 6922 PQ U.S.,which I think we should A/B against his current fav,the CCa's.Might be interesting,now that he's made equip changes.
BUT....
Back to the original post question....I wish these were some folks who could "reliably" make the "comparison" of the CCa's against the PW's!
I now live with superb CCa's,but the "aura" of the PW does exist,and there really does NOT seem to be a reliable comparison,other than Joe's Tube Lore(a fun read)who uses a digital based system for his opinions!
In my case,I have a three tube phonostage,and am always wondering if I could get more with a nice threesome(I know where some are,but very expensive)of PW's,if I was to switch from the current CCa residents.
Mine are very quiet and I like them,but the reputation of the PW still fascinates me.
Btw,I have six(two additional/seperate back-up sets for my phonostage)very low noise Ediswan 6922's purchased years ago from Upscale Audio(before you "HAD" to buy equip too,in order to buy tubes).They are very good substitutes for my CCa's,and I keep them in case my 10,000 hr(supposedly) tubes go down.The Ediswan's I have are quite good."PLatinum Series" with much better low-noise numbers that Upscale Audio has been selling in the last few years.One reason I keep them.
Yet,I DO wish there was more feedback regarding the CCa vs PW,based on BOTH being in tip top shape,and just comparing the characteristics of sound!
The Siemens CCa for sale on the Gon by Stance 1 I bought. There are some pics of the tubes on his ad. Is this the tube you speak of?
Tvad, You are a very helpful member in this community of audio nuts. Your thoughts on this tube are spot on from what I am hearing in my system.
I did have this tube at one time but my system is no where the same as it was back then. I was running it in a Audio Note dac ( God help me ) God did help me snap out of all that mess and entanglament. I am free, free, free alast, Oh, sorry I got carried away with my dileverence.
A very different sound than the Amperex WL GP PQ 6922 D getter. It takes the top end to the very limit of being to much of a good thing. It my have its toes over the line at times but you are rewarded with a very open and clear sound.
For some reason these tubes seem quiet and non microphonic. I only got one hour with them so maybe they will "break in" some.
Mr G- Sounds like a no-risk deal. He must be confident of the quality of those tubes. The $$ seems high, but I've not been tracking the cost of CCa's for a few months. Listen to them and judge if they deliver the value in music. Personally- I couldn't do without them in my present system(they spoiled me).
Mr G- Yes: The tubes that my-baby-world is selling are the right ones. Unfortunately: no readings are given for them. The two pair with the $306 buy-it-now price are clocked in the pics so as to hide the shield below the getter support. I would send the seller an e-mail requesting better pics of what he is purveying.
Mr T- I couldn't agree more about the risk involved buying NOS CCa tubes, or any others for that matter. Finding someone that has the right tester, knows how to correctly use it and is honest about the results is becoming increasingly hard to do. And(like any other commodity) as the price increases, so does the number of crooks. Most of the tubes I've purchased in the last few years came from Germany, Argentina(lots of Germans down there) or Australia, and those have all been excellent. Perhaps the people in those countries have a stronger moral code or something. Still- I've found myself grilling sellers before purchasing anything(I hate having to feel that's necessary). You may have noticed me ending a few posts with, "CAVEAT EMPTOR!"
TVAD, I agree 100% with everything you said about Andy. I was wondering if you could recommend another reasonable, reliable tube source, with a more extensive inventory, for those tubes that Andy doesn't carry.
There are opinions, and then there are facts. Siemens made no CCa's with shiny plates and internal date codes in the early 60's. From the 50's through 1965 they had the dull grey plate(electrostatic shield) under the getter support. From 1966 to the 80's, they had the shiny silver/chrome shield and internal date code plate(and a major difference in sonics). Once one hears those two iterations compared, without any other variables, no argument remains. That's given a system that is capable of resolving the differences(easy), ears not attached to a head convinced of preconceived notions(not so easy) and a mind able to admit the truth(even harder). Then again- No doubt there are systems so muted in their high frequency reproduction that they can use a boost there. As always- Whatever works for you is fine with me. Happy listening!
At least you're at the top of the digital ladder. No doubt about analog(done right)though. I SO miss the days when direct-to-discs, original master/virgin vinyl, 1/2 speed mastered, MFSL, Sheffield, Crystal Clear, TELARC, JVC Soundstream, Nautilus, CBS Masterworks, ET AL were inexpensive and plentiful. Technology does march backwards at times doesn't it?
I am using E81CC Mullard/Valvo '66 & CBS 7728 in the Lector T7 MK3. For digital it is, at times, good sounding
When I was running the Lector for two weeks because of changes in my vinyl setup I really did think it was sounding GREAT. Boy was I deceived as I saw the light when I got the TT back up and running.
He that has ears to hear let him hear what the analogphiles have to say. And some having ears to hear hear not.
Andy thinks the people that know about the older CCa's are nuts because all he has to sell are the later ear-hair-burning versions. Not hard to figure out: Ignorance is bliss, and profitable too. Enjoy whatever you settle on.
Sam has the mismatched sections and Andy has the date code and shiny sheild.
Andy thinks people are nuts about the dull/shiny shield. Never did like talking to him.
VV Tubes Now there's a guy that knows how to use the F word. F this and F that. F Joe's tube lore. FFFFFFFFFFFF AND SOME MORE FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF'S No thank you.
On the 'Gon there is a Amperex 7308 WL GP Sheild. Is it as good as the 6922 WL GP Sheild?
Brent Jessee has been fine but his prices are going up^.
Keep up the crusade Gerrye! Neither eBay, nor Paypal are there to protect the consumer, but rather- to make LOTS of money. Good info, and much homework with regards to tubes are our only means of defence against this type of fraud. As I always say, "Caveat Emptor"!
"Did realjazzcat(aka tubemuseum) rip you off too Tvad? he's the only one I've been stuck by in 5 years of tube buying there."
Realjazzcat has ripped off MANY people. He would take standard tubes, gold-plate the pins and then pass them off as genuine factory premium tubes (Mullard 10M, 6922s and ECC803S).
He was the only one selling gold-pin Telefunken 12AX7s that did not have frame-grid plates. When confronted about this he made up all sorts of explanations including that they were a special military issue. When we further exposed his scam, including the fact that he purchased small quantities of gold bullion on eBay, he stopped selling them. Of course no one else ever sold them again.
He currently preys on tube newbies and foreigners (check his recent feedback) who can't read past the hype, BS or outright lies in his auction descriptions. Since they don't know better, they leave him positive feedback.
Many of you know that I have led the campaign to expose this scammer and I will continue to do so. His claims are outrageous and his prices are high. He's a CON MAN that is good at his craft my creating perceived value where none exists. Don't support this SCAMMER!
Gerry P.S. He was also caught many times shill bidding his auctions. Of course eBay did nothing about it even though plenty of evidence was given. If you know anything about eBay, this is no surprise as they always support people who make money for them.
Mr G- The Lector is one of the only CDPs that I'd consider trading in my VK-D5 for(the Linn CD12 being the other). I was wondering- What tubes are you using in your 7T? Have you tried any of the 6201's in there? You might find that digital sucks less with a good tube in the mouth of the beast(so to speak). I'd be forced to find some Siemens E801CC's or Tele ECC801S's for it.
Did realjazzcat(aka tubemuseum) rip you off too Tvad? he's the only one I've been stuck by in 5 years of tube buying there. Mr G- I would pass on those CCa's. That one weaker triode section will cost you in balance, imaging and sound stage. Generally CCa's are much better matched(triode to triode)than that. Look up 'audiotubes_de' (http://myworld.ebay.com/audiotubes_de) on eBay, and contact him. He doesn't have any CCa's listed right now, but may have some in stock(West German seller and very dependable).
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