Shelf Material

Subaruguru, just think of how good it will sound if you getyour hands on a few clamps. Tongue firmly in cheek.

I bought a Neuance shelf, but have been too lazy to install it, so simply "stored" it on TOP of my Rotel CDP (which sits on an inner tube). I'll be damned if the top octave isn't cleaner!! Okay...no controlled A/B yet, but this appears to be a remarkable, VERY well made, and overly-well packaged product. After the holidays I hope to try it UNDER the CDP. I don't mean to have tongue stuck too deeply in cheek here, but I've been too busy LISTENING to music for once, instead of screwing with the gear. Appears that the Neuance is vetting cabinet vibrations off the Rotel, I suppose?

Redkiwi, for butcher block material check Professional Cutlery Direct at www.cutlery.com. The only blocks in the current catlogue are 16x16, but they can probably hook you up with any size you want ro have something cut to your specs. I would think that the "end cut" blocks would to the best job. If it doesn't work for audio purposes, you still have a nice cutting board.

Sol322, I am in two minds over the suspension thing. It isolates a shelf from a rack pretty well, but whatever you use to suspend the shelf has a sound of its own, a bit like a plucked string. I did have success with the Neuance shelf as well as damped Corian. The Neuance shelf is very promising, but with just one in the system, it is competing with the sound of four other shelves and so it is a little difficult to tell. So I am going to jump in the deep end and buy a set of Neuance shelves and play around with how best to support them. The Neuance is very light and rigid, yet damped and WAY outperforms MDF. You can get details at www.neuanceaudio.com.

Redkiwi: Any updates on your findings? I had a computer breakdown and lost this thread. Guys EXCELLENT information and posting!!!!! Has triggered new areas to explore. I did some attempts to hanging equipment but wasn't as committed to audio at that time compared to now. I have now my amp on an airbladder sandwiched between two MDF pieces and noticed bass gain and definition. After reading this definitely I'll revisit the suspension alternative

Redkiwi's shelf saga pulled from the depths for reference purposes

Redkiwi,Subaruguru.My regular mailserver has been down since Tuesday.I am able to receive but not send email via a secondary address-greaterranges@flashcom.net.Let me know what's been going on in your platform experiments via the later.I'll respond back a soon as I have service.

Sorry about this late posting, just saw it tonight. Looks like you're almost done experimenting so I'll throw something new into the fire and see what burns! An earlier posting mentioned Maple butcher block and I thought I had seen something in an audio site. At www.audionut.com, in "Products" and "Control Vibration" tabs, they carry a 1 3/4" x 17" x 12" maple board (doesn't look like butcher block) for $50 to be placed on top of your component(!). Hmmm!?! They are also carrying an isolation foot called the Aurios, which I first noticed this summer, that seem intriguing at the very least. Might be a b*tch with large power cords, as the feet have to balance in all directions and not "pull". Neither product has been tried by anyone I know, so FYI and have fun!

Dekay, right now they are still suspended and I prefer them that way. Yes the Vibrapods are sandwiched between the Corian and the component. Ghthirteen, I have tried the Vibrapods with other shelves made of glass, marble, perspex and mdf and found them to be inferior to using Townshend Seismic Sinks every time, and even when not using the sinks I have preferred BDR cones over Vibrapods with mdf. But BDR cones do not work so well with shelves like marble, perspex or Corian. [I actually have other cones from Walker, Golden Sound and others but these posts are long enough without describing them as well.] This is the first time I have liked the Vibrapods over everything else. In other applications I have considered them good value for money only. You may be right in suggesting massive and dead and then use the Vibrapods. I think massive and dead works best with a concrete floor, but that light and rigid is best with a floppy floor ie. wood. Kitch29 - I hope my offence isn't extraditable. I actually had no problem drilling holes in the Corian (for the suspension trick), but cutting is probably a whole other matter. I got mine by making it plain my application was an engineering one, not to make my own bench tops, and enquired about off-cuts - but I know what you mean about licensed fabricators. Garfish, I have tried mdf with a veneer that is half way between melamine and formica. It was not bad and worked well with cones. But in anyguise I have never been thrilled by the muddiness of mdf.

Thanks Kitch29 and Redkiwi for the discussion of Corian-- sounds like it's a bitch to work with, and probably best to get it pre-cut to size by the pros. Has anyone used plain ol' formica on MDF? And maybe with formica also on the bottom of the MDF? Cheers. Craig

RedKiwi: Are you using the 'pods under the component, or under the shelf? IF under the component, this leads me to believe that you should (sorry) try the same combination of 'pods that you have found to be optimised to your gear with the other shelf materials, if you want to be sure that the shelf is playing as large a role as you believe. It's just the scientist in me, baby. IF you are using the 'pods under the shelf itself, wouldn't it be possible to build a really dead and heavy rack (what we all need, with our gear strewn about the floor) and then use the pod scheme to decouple the shelf and component from the rack?

Redkiwi: I.m shocked, shocked and dismayed that you would flaunt the advice of E.I. duPont deNemours in your cavalier treatment of their material. It should come as no surprise to you that I have already given your name to them. Please, no protestations, you have brought the consequences upon yourself! And if you can resist the temptation to sit on your countertops, errr, shelves, I'm glad to hear they can take the weight.

Redkiwi: Are the Corian platforms still suspended (hanging) or are they on stationary supports? I am losing track at this point. Also, whether stationary or suspended are the Pods sandwiched between the Corian and your components? I do not know how much time Craig at Vibrapods has to spare but I will let him know about this thread as he may want to play as well.

OK - I know I have gone around in circles on this, but can now conclude my findings until some of the stuff I have ordered from the US arrives - probably two weeks time. Suspension - much less resonance than conventional supports, but need to use a non-resonant wire for best effect, heavy guage nylon fishing line is good - forward images are more forward, plus greater depth and 3D images, bass region is very clean allowing mid-bass to propel the music, everything is a bit more present, and resolution is enhanced. Corian - is a bit like other heavy supports like marble, perspex etc in that its bass is very strong, but that there is resonance across a wide band (ie. not peaky) throughout the midband which sounds like grain - this can be reduced by using pads instead of spikes to support the Corian, but is even better if suspended on wire - this resonance effect can be almost totally eliminated by selecting the right footer. After much experimentation I have concluded that Vibrapods are the best with Corian. I found that the use of soft rubber footers was plain muddy. I found that using cones or hard rubber footers was OK but had a slightly dead quality (referred to by Recres above), shades of what I hear in spades with sand boxes. Last night I got a bucket of Vibrapods and painstakingly selected the best model and placement until I had optimised the sound. The result was fantastic, and much better than my first attempts with Vibrapods when I was using higher model numbers than I wound up using last night. There is NO vestige of the dead quality now and the music is highly involving - that bass just propels things along beautifully. I have performed some more experiments with the Corian in terms of its ability to support heavy equipment and find I cannot agree at all with Kitch29 above, but my Corian shelves span 19 inches, not 24 inches of course. My shelves have no trouble supporting my 130W valve monoblocks and do not sag at all. For very heavy amps I guess you could be better to bond two pieces together. I am not saying Corian is ideal, but the combination of suspension, Corian and careful selection of Vibrapods is giving a result that is light years ahead of conventional glass or MDF shelves. I expect that the Neuance shelves, Polycrystal shelves, and Maple butchers are capable of even better results - but right now my shelf obsession has abated somewhat. I will report on these other shelves in a few weeks time when they arrive.

My understanding is that Corian is made of very dense acrylic polymer. It is a good deal heavier, harder and more rigid than perspex, and comes standard in 12mm thick sheets. I am spanning about 19 inches supporting a 40 lb CD Transport and there is NO sign of any bend in it whatsover - and this includes when I support the front of the Transport with a centrally located footer. I have played some more and tried damping the Corian. This means using cones is now best for footers. But I am not sure the sound is significantly better, just different. I do not want to hype Corian, but I probably have. It is certainly not ideal, I am just having fun exploring its capabilities and I am getting some good results. I am beginning to feel it has some of the characteristics of sand boxes - terrific firmness, extension and articulation in the bass, but a slight deadness creeps into the mids and highs - a slight absence of presence - hence whay I am feeling the need to play around with ways to remove the mid-band resonance with damping, either direct or by way of footer. Corian is used as a CD puck in CEC belt-drive turntables, and also as part of the cabinets in some very expensive speaker systems (eg. Pipedreams). I would only rate it 7 out of 10 for a shelf material, but better than anything I have yet tried. I would rate the suspension idea as more like 9 out of 10 so far.

Corian is available, mainly by catalogue and online in what dupont calls "hobbyist sizes". Dupont actually licenses fabricators, going to their shops and determining if they have the expertise to fabricate and install. It is sold through home centers only on an installed basis. Check the back of Fine woodworking, etc. for ads. As it is an acrylic based material in 1/2" thick sheets, there is no way it would span 24" with a load of 30lbs or more and not sag or even break. As a countertop it is bonded to 3/4 particle board. When the combination of corian and particle board is extended more than 10" beyond a cabinet side, for example as a breakfast bar, the fabricator is required to furnish supports at a minimum of 24" spacing. You may be able to purchase suitable sized pieces from a fabricator, just as you would buy small pieces of granite or marble, but keep in mind the necessity for the use of a substrate, the particle board. Working corian requires carbide tipped tooling for the router of at least 2 1/2 h.p. and the tablesaw, at least 5 h.p. The material safety data sheets stress the use of dust masks and dust control in confined (indoors) spaces; it makes a hell of a mess, extremely fine dust. At one time a dealer friend of mine was using corian as a replacement deck for the vpi hw-19 table with the encouragement of harry weisfeld, i.e., harry was selling him parts. The sound was awesome.

At the risk of asking a really dumb question........I am not familiar with Corian. How does it compare to Formica (over MDF) as used here in the USA for counter tops etc? Thanks. Craig

Give that man a cigar! :^) Neuance has been described as a "Box filled with custard". This, of course, is not perfectly accurate as I prefer firm meringues instead. ;^) Best, Ken

I don't know much about youngs nautilus or caterham's, but i do know kevin from muse is pretty smart and his post reminds me of what we joiner's, (that's cabinetmakers to you) call the torsion box. To create a dead flat work surface, you take 2 layers ofsheet goods, mdf, ply, osb, etc and join them with accurately cut strips of the material. Pin and glue the strips to both layers so you wind up with a "shelf that's as thick as the two layers plus the width of the joining material. I'm thinking of 2 pieces of mdf, 3/4 X 30 X18 with 3/4 mdf cut very accurately to 18 X 2. 6 pieces spaced 6" apart would be good and the voids between them could be filled with sand or marmalade or whatever damping material you like prior to glue-up. The resulting box would be 30 X 18 X 3 1/2, incredibly stiff, and dead flat. You could trim it out with your sitka spruce, kevin. Remember coming to my place in florida, giving up on grounding and sheilding away the hum in my muse one pre-amp and sending me another with a whole new internal grounding system? You are the man!

I have played around with the hard rubber footers and Vibrapods a bit more now and my vote is now with the Vibrapods. The hard rubber footers are a bit dark sounding, and may explain Recres not liking Corian. Corian is definitely not perfect - there are probably better shelves, such as from Neuance or the Maple butchers block. I am just saying that if decoupled from the rack (in my case by nylon fishing line) and if decoupled from the component with Vibrapods, I get a good result. The most positive aspect of Corian is a thumping and deep bass, that is fast and agile, but the tendency to mid-range grain rules out spikes or cones.

Thank you Caterham for not calling me dim. I have seen Corian on "This Old House" but did not make the connection. It is much easier to source than Persimmon.

Dekay, DuPont Corian is a readily available material used for countertop installations and can be ordered thru most home improvement centers.You should have no troubles spanning 24 inches.

Where do you purchase Corian? If it is readily available and stiff enough for a 24" stretch between supports I may want to try it for my second amp/preamp shelf. I do not mean to drive anyone crazier, but the best sound for my CD player so far has been Vibrapods resting on the "Persimmon" wood that my cabinet is made of.

Megasam, you are right that the range of footers have a wide range of effects on the sound, but if significant vibration is getting to them then all they do is move the problem around the spectrum. But as my quest continues and I am reducing audible resonance through rack/shelf strategy, it is noticeable that different footers begin to sound more and more similar. Footers are an important part in the equation, but to obtin high resolution through concentrating mainly on footers, is not the best way to go IMO. Kdmeyer - I will follow that one up, it sounds very interesting indeed.

Thanks all for an interesting thread. There is a product for telescopes that might have an application here at a relatively simple level. Celestron Vibration Suppression Pads are designed to slip under tripod feet--picture a concave hockey puck composed of a center disk suspended in a ring of relatively mushy material, suspended in a ring of relatively hard material which rests on the ground. Typical applications place maybe five to thirty pounds on each pad. Not sure what the engineered upper weight limit is. They've been around for years and really do work to damp visually observable vibration in whatever sits on them. VSP's are sold in packs of three for about $44. After reading all this I'm considering putting my rack on them. I can't picture spikes in my wood floor. For a picture see www.celestron.com/access/tri.htm. One dealer is Anacortes Optical at www.buytelescopes.com.

Thanks Sam: I did not realize that the Pods would raise the X gear enough. I have a set here (right under my nose) and yes they work like a charm. I guess that the SS preamp section is then more succeptable to vibration than the SS power amp. I use wheelbarrow tubes under our two box mini system and the improvement is startling. It makes a cheap little system very listenable in the main bedroom. All that I have ever done to the mini system other than the tubes is to use Kimber 4VS cable and upgrade the speakers to Polk RT15's ($90.00 a pair on closeout). I will always keep it around (due to it's tape decks) to listen to old Disco tapes as well as Bio-feedback tapes that I use.

Dekay I set X series amps directly on shelf no isolation. X series preamp I would put 4 #2 vibrapods directly under body, there is enough height to clear stock feet, I would try this also for X-A1 integrated. For X-ray CDP definitely go with 4 vibrapods, needs a fuller, richer sound IMO. With full size components I prefer partially inflated inner tube to vibrapods if you want a fuller, richer sound. For leaner more detail go with cone solution, for nuetral more detail go with Aurios MIB or Rollerblock.

Sam: What have you used sussecfully under the "X" components? Have you found a way to get around the stock integral feet, or do you use the stock feet in your formula? I am just playing with the amp(s) for now but may pick up the X-Ray (used) and later add a DAC as you suggested.

To all the speculation about suspending shelves and the effect on sound, Arcici Suspense Rack uses air bladders in combination with suspended shelves, $2000+ many good reviews but price is high. I would recommend reading some reviews to understand how this appraoch works. For more info on what a shelf does, and the theory behind proper construction go to Symposium site http://www.symposiumusa.com/index.html My approach which preserves visual integrety and financial sanity is to purchase a reasonable priced rack system like Target, Polycrystal and use stock shelves and fine tune with cheap isolation tweaks, cones...vibrapods....bladders etc. Isolation tweaks have more effect than shelf thickness and what type of wood/plastic you use.

Sorry Craig (Garfish) - slip of the tongue. I have indeed come across and experimented with the single spike idea as Theta have used it in their transports, and I have owned a few of those. I have found that the best footer for an application is very dependent on the shelf used. With something like MDF you can be best to use damped cones like BDR, but spike and soft footers together is also good as you say. But I still don't rate MDF highly. Since my last post I have persevered with the suspending of Corian shelves from a steel rack using thick nylon wire, and tried various footers. (The biggest pain is designing a means of levelling the shelves without introducing vibrations.) The best (after trying several different types) is to use a very hard rubber footer, and Vibrapods work quite well too. Cones are too hard with the Corian, and spikes are definitely out of the question. The use of either (including up-pointed spikes under the shelf) result in a severe resonance adding grain and edge to the midband. The results I am getting are now very very good indeed and much better than MDF or the particle board I had been using which was only a bit better than MDF. While I am very happy with the results, I will not be able to rest until I have tried some of the other ideas posted here, especially the Neuance shelf and the maple butchers block. Ernie (Subaruguru), I am sure there must be microdisplacement, but in any vibrating system there will be microdisplacement. In a suspended system the displacement is larger, but slower moving - whether this is better or worse is for the ears to decide. I hear suspension as sounding very different from the bladder products. To put it in a nut-shell. A shelf sitting on a rack tends to add resonant peaks to the music, damage harmonic structure and reduce depth. Using different compounds just moves the resonance around and some are better than others, but none that I have heard reduce the resonances down even close to inaudibility. Placing a bladder product between shelf and component tends to fix each of these problems pretty well, but adds a new one in that it tends to cause a suck-out somewhere, usually in the mid-bass or upper-bass, destroying rhythm. Suspending a shelf can have various results depending on the wire used, but with thick nylon wire resonances are much reduced compared with sitting the shelf on the rack, with none of the suck-out problems of bladder products. Resonance is not totally eliminated and you can still hear the differences between shelves and footers. In addition to this I have discovered that Corian shelves, used with soft footers, can give terrific results, particularly if you want more power (and I mean a lot more) and articulation in the bass.

I'm going to try one of Caterham's Neuance shelves under my CDP as soon as it gets here, and hope it clarifies the top octave without changing spectral balance. Mark (Redkiwi)...I'm not sure how a suspension would be very different from an air bladder re horizontal microdisplacement. You like it though, eh? Does it jiggle clockwise or downunderwise? Cheers! Ernie

Caterham: Both shelves (whole and with a hole) were cut from the same piece of MDF, there were no other shelf materials involved. I did not power down the system or move my source, so the comparison was quick and easy. Their was no noticeable difference between the two, though both sounded bad. The shelves were used on my amp only and not the source. The next time I will try 1" MDF with and without the hole. The 3/4" MDF is definitely too thin for the 24" stretch. I have Musical Fidelity X gear (the funny shaped stuff) which limits what I can do. I am really dependent on the platform as I cannot change the feet on the components. I also do not have enough clearance left in the cabinet to add more than 1/2" to the sandwich. I had to power down this morning to add my new dual mono power amp (which has a bad hum in both of the channels past 9 O'clock on the gain) so I will wait a few weeks to try the 1" shelf. I already requested a call tag for the amp and hopefully it can be repaired as it is the only one available. I already tried switching polarity, isolating cords and the power supply, etc., so it is something internal most likely in the separate power supply as both channels are humming. Anyway, the reduced mass theory is sound - the materials in their application were just not up to par for a decent evaluation. Aside from function I have been thinking of how rewarding it would be to design the form of equipment racks as I have yet to see a stock one that I would want in my living room. We have very diversified tastes that range from a late 1800s black lacquered bent wood settee to the original umbrella chair, but none of the racks cut it as far as I am concerned.

Hi Redkiwi; Are you calling me Garfield? Recently, to audition a tube amp, I pulled my McCormack DNA-2DX amp out of its usual position on the bottom shelf of my large, heavy, all welded steel stereo stand. It has Melamine MDF shelves. After finishing with the tube amp, I put the DNA-2 back in, and over the next couple of days was generally disappointed with music quality which was vaguely irritating-- bass was sort of muddy, mids congested, and upper mids and low treble were slightly bright and even wirey-- but hey, I had been listening to a tube amp for several days (I was also breaking in a fairly new AC cord). It finally dawned on me that one thing I had neglected to do was re-set the DNA-2s vibration grounding spike. The DNA-2 amps have six sorbothane decoupling feet and a coupling grounding spike at the bottom, center, rear of the amp. This spike is threaded directly into the bottom plate of the amp. It's purpose is to couple the amp to the material it sits on. Yes, I know this sounds contradictory,ie to have both decoupling and coupling mechanisms built into the same component, but it REALLY works. After I screwed the "spike" down to the point where the two rear amp feet were just off the shelf (this is what McCormack recommends) I played some music and VIOLA' the music came back-- bass became deep, tight and solid, mids became more clear and well defined, and best of all the brightness/wireness of upper mids and treble went away. BTW, years ago when Stereophile reviewed the DNA-1 amp, the reviewer commented that the soft feet AND the "spike" were a contradiction and the reviewer didn't think they should "work together", but according to Steve McCormack-- not so, ie they DO complement each other; and hey, S. McCormack invented the famous Tip Toes. I have two points here: (1) this dual approach system really does work on the DNA amps, and (2) So why wouldn't it also work with other components-- at least those that don't have to be perfectly level such as DACs and pre-amps. It would be easy enough to check out, all that would be needed is two Sorbothane feet such as Audioquests Big Feet (or Little Feet), and a sharp metal cone foot (for a tripod arrangement). I don't have either yet, but think I'll round some up to try. Steve McCormack certainly has to be one of the masters of vibration control in stereo components. He is at www.smcaudio.com should you want to contact him. And he is a very nice guy. The above ramble is not about shelf materials, but I think it is certainly germane to your subject. Cheers. Craig.

Caterham 1700. I have posted it off to you and it will get to you early next week - in fact the plane it is on arrives in the US today Saturday. The Caterham motors were lovely creatures. You may or may not know that when Lotus aborted the Lotus 7 Mark IV, it licensed it to various companies, including one here in New Zealand - Christchurch to be precise. With its light fibreglass body it was at the time the fifth fastest production car ever made for 0 to 60mph. Above that its poor aerodynamics slowed its acceleration and the front wheel arches - they were really just protruding pieces of plastic - waved alarmingly. They were not as graceful looking as the Europas, Elites, Elans and Esprits that I played around with, but they were one heck of an exciting (and occasionally wet) way to get to work in the morning.

Thanks for your kind thoughts on beaming me the slab Dekay. But 100lbs would normally cost about $US400 to get here, and that assumes they don't sting me for the awkward shape. I do actually have a cheaper way which is to get a NZ freight company to pick it up in the US. I am checking out the maple idea and seeing where the best prices are, but I am keen also to try the Neuance shelf which Caterham 1700 is kindly helping me with.

I can report on experiments 131a and 131b. A friend who likes acrylic shelves told me they were best, not on spikes, but on a hardish damping sheet - some of which he lent to me. So if you recall I found the Corian to be OK on spikes if one used a soft footer or bladder product - experiment 131. So I tried the damping pads in place of the spikes and removed the soft footers and bladders - 131a. The result was better in this configuration 131a - and I was beginning to feel that this was a pretty good result. It was around about midnight, but I said "what the heck" and began experiment 131b. This time I used 300lb strain guage nylon (the 100lb stuff definitely stetched too much and the nylon coated steel rang like a steel string on a guitar) to suspend the Corian. Now it was getting late, and I was a bit tired, but first impressions were very favourable indeed. Experiment 131b rules at this point and the 300lb nylon cable showed absolutely no visible signs of stretch even when subjecting it to loads over 50lbs (after all I am suspending each shelf with four threads and so they can theoretically go up to 1200lbs). Resonance effects on the sound are now very low indeed, and I have some ideas of how to reduce them further. In conclusion, I think the suspension idea has considerable merit and that very thick nylon is better than steel. The Corian is a two edged sword however. It does ping, and I am sure there are still small vestiges of this in configuration 131b, but it otherwise has an excellent top end and bottom end, and the dynamics are very natural indeed. It may still very well be that if I find an ideal shelf material, that sitting on spikes may get closer to the results with suspension. This would get over the problem of the transport swaying after the CD has loaded, for example. But right now, suspension is sounding great - and believe it or not, my beautiful wife Sonia thinks it is "cute". For those of you that really love soundstaging - you have got to try this suspension thing - the depth of field is stunning.

Dekay, My intent was a semi-controlled experiment to note the effects of reduced mass of shelving of the same materials, and not a comparison of hardwoods vs. mdf. I was expecting that your response would take a minimum of week or more because of the time it takes just to familiarise oneself with the character of different materials. I am not a proponent of mdf,btw and have intentionally stayed away from specific recommendations in materials in this most interesting thread. Best, Ken

Dekay, just to add that we have utilized MDF and found that anything less than 1" don't work so well. As you have two MDF sheets cut already, try mounting them with the off-center hole cut one on top of the solid sheet with a space between the two of approx 1" (use whatever solid footers you have to seperate them). Mount this arrangement on more footers or spikes and place a selected component on top. Listen and trial by varying the "air gap" between the two MDF shelves. If you find that it works for you, then you can start to experiment and fine tune by filling the "air gap" with different materials. BTW, applying a finish coat to the MDF will drastically alter the "sound" of this arrangement. If any of this makes sense and you try it, let me know what you find...?? Richard. www.vantageaudio.com

Caterham: I finished the MDF shelving yesterday and had two shelves cut. One with an off center hole and one solid. I could not hear a difference between the two though neither sounded very good with my Musical Fidelity amp resting on them with its stock "integral" feet. I am not very articulate at describing sound so I will just say that I lost HF shimmer and a little LF definition as well. The amp was previously resting on the Persimmon wood of the cabinet and this combo sounded much better. I tried mystery adjustable speaker spikes (free from a friend) between the lips and the shelving which also made very little difference. I suspect that the problem is that the 3/4" shelf is 24" in width and I will try 1" thick high density board next. My lumber yard did not charge me for the MDF or the cuts which means that I am probably due for a shave and haircut. I will keep my ten year old T-shirt and shorts though. The CD player is still resting on its original layering system below so it is just the amp shelf that muddled up the sound. I may try terra cotta and other ceramic tiles under the amp(s) (my second one arrives this morning) as I have never used these materials and they are dirt/clay cheap. I was also able to free up 2" of space below the source to try the Mapleshade cones which I will order today. Since I will be burning in a new amp and cable I will not be able to experiment for a while as there are too many variables to account for. If tiles or other thin layers do not work with the MDF the amps will be going back into kitty territory for the time being until I try a 1" shelf of MDF or another material. I only have a 12" height to work with in the cabinet which severely limits my options. I will save the good materials (2 1/2" maple and marble) for a freestanding rack that I will build when I am more active. The freestanding rack will allow me to have normal cable runs and better speaker placement but will have to wait until the spring/summer at the earliest. I can barely move after putting together this simple shelf and my wife is not very supportive of any more construction projects for the time being. I will be certain to copy this thread for future use and will add comments in regard to the Mapleshade cones, etc., when the accessories arrive and settle into the system. I wish that I had a way to "beam" my maple slab to Redkiwi, it must weigh at least 100 pounds.

Redkiwi, Caterham Motors ,the factory authorized service arm for Lotus Components that supplied your motors purchased the manufacturing rights and tooling of the Lotus Seven after Colin Chapman bored of it.They produce to this day a highly refined but direct descendant to the Series III Super Seven. The lightweight 250hp Jonathan Palmer Evolution(JPE) is capable of 0-6omph times of 3.5sec,0-1oomph in 8.3sec,0-100 to 0 in 12.5sec and roadholding of 1.1 lateral G without benefit of ground effects.Way cool.Still saving my pennies for the more streetable Caterham Seven SuperSprint 1700(135hp). I still do some autocrossing(gymkhana) with a B-Stock Mazda Miata MX-5R when time allows and formerly road raced a Crossle Formula Ford, Lotus Cortina and karts. I actually was pretty good at it but gave it up after an incident at Sears Point Raceway,CA. in the 80's when I managed to cut my F-Ford in half with an aerial summersault atop a long stretch of steel barrier at a pretty good rate of speed. :^) Best, Ken

Playing around with the Corian yielded some good results. I have the Corian shelves sitting on up-pointed spikes, and don't have any plans to try any alternative means of support. But sitting the components directly on the Corian is not great, as previously indicated. Using BDR cones is better, but still not liveable. But using soft footers like Vibrapods gives very good results - something I have not experienced before - I almost wish I hadn't given away so many of the things in the past. Interestingly the Vibrapods were much better than using bladder products under the transport, but the bladder products were a bit better (very close call - perhaps it will change after a recount) under the other equipment. Currently the sound is pretty damn good, but with some small vestiges of whitening and grain in the midrange. The huge bonus is a very powerful, fast and articulate bass, regardless of which footer is used. This may be what I live with for a while until I get to try a Neuance shelf from Ken (Caterham1700 - is that the racing car engine Ken? I used to race Lotus Europas and a S2 Seven, some of which had Caterham engines.), and get a good freight deal on bringing some Maple butchers block into the country. I have also begun to design what I am deducing is an ideal rack for putting the "stereo on a string" concept into practise properly, but I expect that to take some weeks before I will have a result to report on. One of the advantages of living in NZ is the low cost of getting stuff like this made up.

It is a long time ago that I used the Torlyte shelf Ken and it was under a Linn Turntable, which was just an ideal match. By memory the Torlyte was great with light components - say under 15 lbs, but sagged with anything heavier. Also spikes pierced its surface. It sounded fast and agile, if a little light in the bass. There was a slight thunk to the middle of the midrange and a slight crispness to the top end. Not nearly as bad as the crispy crunchy stuff of my current board. That Torlyte board I had would have trouble with my heavy Theta gear. I have been listening to the Corian and hear none of the dynamics or other problems that Recres reports above - this may be due to either the racks being different or the footers used. The Corian is not perfect - there is a slight recession of the mid-range, a slight flattening of images and a bit of grain. But it has wonderful bass and hardly any smearing of highs. Selection of the right footer or damping of the Corian may give decent results. But right now I would say tantalisingly close, but without some improvement in harmonics in the midrange, it would be hard for me to live with. A bit like marble or perspex, it has something going on in the mids that lets it down, but it is definitely better than either marble or perspex.

lol.damn keys keep movin' late at nite. (RATA & Neuance) Ken

Redkiwi, You mention that you once had a TATA Torlyte(assuming Russ's original design).Could you elaborate in more detail what you remember of it's sonic character for my own information?It might give me a better handle on the specific "sound" you are after.I have a small range of voicing capabilities with Neaunce that might possibly be applied. Best, Ken

Dekay, I tried using a very thin steel wire, coated in nylon, with a breaking strain of 90 lbs. I did this roughly first - as per my nylon experiment, and then used it to suspend a shelf properly. The results were fine except for the Transport, which needed a soft footer between it and the shelf or it sounded hideous - and I mean unlistenable. Finally I have found a use for the Vibrapods! I will have to experiment further, but I can tell you there really was a very significant difference between the nylon and the nylon coated steel. There is certainly an advantage in that the steel wire did not stretch at all, so I will try and make it work if I can. Garfield - I have found in the past that a welded steel rack is very important, and so employ one in both my systems. I find thick guage steel like 3mm is better than the flimsy store-bought racks. I also find that if you have a concrete floor (as in my beach house) then filling the stand with sand and lead shot (or something else) is a good thing, but if you have a floppy floor (as I have at home) then leaving the stand empty is preferable. So I have followed both of these in the present. It is in the area of shelves and footers that I don't feel I am getting it right. The best shelf I have come across is a low density board with a very hard veneer. It is very light and rigid and is fast and detailed, but sounds a bit crisp and crunchy - and it is not unlike how I remember the Torlyte shelf I owned many years ago. If using this board, I prefer using cones rather than soft footers, else the sound gets muddy. The other strategy I use is to put bladder products on the same board. This gets rid of the crisp and crunchy sound, but has a suck-out that tends to fall in the bass region somewhere, depending on the mass of the component and the bladder product used. Either way the suck-out tends to take away some of the propulsion that bass instruments provide to non-classical music, and therefore the rhythm suffers. There is also a slight impact on pace - probably due to the mass of the bladder products. Currently I use combinations of the board I refer to, Townshend Seismic Sinks and cones from Walker and BDR. I own soft footers but do not use any of them. Vantage audio, I have tried all kinds of ideas with MDF, including using a thick and hard lacquer, without success. One possibility is that our locally made MDF is just not the same as you use in the US. I once had a pommie rack and its MDF shelves were harder and denser than what is made in NZ. The Corian has finally arrived and I slipped a piece under each of my monoblocks - and I kind of liked it. It will take me a little longer to figure out what it does with the line level components given the gantry it is now all suspended from, but will report back soon. I have a feeling it will work better at the beach house sitting on a damped heavy rack, because this Corian stuff is very heavy indeed and has a ping a bit like marble and is more 'live' than perspex. Garfield - maybe it is the floppy floor at home that has caused me to suffer extreme structure borne vibration, and hence an obsession to deal with it.

Caterham: Thanks for reminding me, I knew that there was something that I had forgot. I use 3/4" MDF which should still be tuff enough with a 5" hole. The hole is to be random and not on center, is this correct? I have been told that the shielding that I was going to add with an aluminum sheet will deteriorate the sound (resonance wise) more than the shielding will improve it, so a hole is now not a problem. If I still loose sleep over nastiness from my source's power supply bothering my amps it will be easier to place a shield inside the CD player. I own it and it's out of warranty. We are tidying up with a back hoe at this point and I have located my scroll saw and power drill as well as a bubble level. My finishing saw is still under the surface somewhere. The lumber yard cuts to order even on scraps, so this is not a problem and is the easy way to go. I have to pick up my additional Kimber Kable this week (I decided to stick with the 4VS until I can shorten the runs) and the shop should have a supply of spikes to choose from. I would like to try brass if they have them. I am also going to try the "best" cones from the Mapleshade website ($110.00) under the CD player as well. I had less than good results with another cone manufacturer and have been close minded on the subject, now it's time to get over it and try something else other than the Vibrapods. If I have time I will make notes on the various isolators as well as the mass reducing hole.

Dekay, Since your mdf shelf on spikes is a temporary setup, would you do a little experiment and report back here your findings? Just use your mdf shelf as planned for a while till you get a pretty firm handle on it's qualities.Then cut the 5"-6 "(larger if your mdf is in excess of 3/4" thick) hole as I recommended in the related CDP isolation thread to remove mass.Thanks. Best, Ken

I just finished a very informative telecon with a manufacturer that feels that hard maple is one of the best platform materials. I will not speak for him in detail and would just like to note his reccomendation in this thread. He sounded very busy with many calls but hopefully he will have the time to visit this site and elaborate. Suspended platforms for home use also got a thumbs up. I will be putting in a MDF shelf poised on spikes for now as my new amp arrives this Friday and our houseguest ,my stepdaughter, the following week. I am really just throwing this together for her benefit (and to show off a little). Otherwise it could have waited at least another week or so. LOL.

Redkiwi; I love this kind of gritty obsseviness-- makes me feel right at home. But my therapist thinks.......! What kind of shelves/rack do you actually use in your present system? Also what kind of floor do you have, and anything else relavant to the vibration control problem? A couple of years ago I decided to go with "mass" and made a 200+ lb. stereo stand-- concrete in the corner posts, well braced, MDF shelves,spiked to floor, etc-- works good, but can probably be critisized in some areas. Concrete in the corner posts was not the "absolute best" choice, but decisions had to be made if I was going to have music within a reasonable period of time (BTW, Sound Anchors Speaker Stands uses concrete in their stands, which are used by Vandersteen). Many other materials and design decisions had to be made if I was ever going to finish my project. So, I'm really curious as to what you've actually been using. Cheers. Craig.

Regarding the use of MDF for shelf material, experiment with two MDF pieces cut to suitable shelf/support size, try one "plain" and get the other one either hand lacquered or two-part spray lacquered in a piano black finish or similar. Use some type of "footer" above and below the MDF whilst you experiment. You may change your mind about using MDF. If you can try this and find that something is happening that you like with just this single "shelf" then let me know and I will let you have some drawings for a very cost effective support platform (we make our own similar, platforms but once shipping overseas gets involved they do not become cost effective - bit like shipping large loudspeakers all the way around the world, you end up paying to ship "air"). Hope this helps..?? Richard, vantageaudio.com