Shelf Material

Dekay, just to add that we have utilized MDF and found that anything less than 1" don't work so well. As you have two MDF sheets cut already, try mounting them with the off-center hole cut one on top of the solid sheet with a space between the two of approx 1" (use whatever solid footers you have to seperate them). Mount this arrangement on more footers or spikes and place a selected component on top. Listen and trial by varying the "air gap" between the two MDF shelves. If you find that it works for you, then you can start to experiment and fine tune by filling the "air gap" with different materials. BTW, applying a finish coat to the MDF will drastically alter the "sound" of this arrangement. If any of this makes sense and you try it, let me know what you find...?? Richard. www.vantageaudio.com

Dekay, My intent was a semi-controlled experiment to note the effects of reduced mass of shelving of the same materials, and not a comparison of hardwoods vs. mdf. I was expecting that your response would take a minimum of week or more because of the time it takes just to familiarise oneself with the character of different materials. I am not a proponent of mdf,btw and have intentionally stayed away from specific recommendations in materials in this most interesting thread. Best, Ken

I can report on experiments 131a and 131b. A friend who likes acrylic shelves told me they were best, not on spikes, but on a hardish damping sheet - some of which he lent to me. So if you recall I found the Corian to be OK on spikes if one used a soft footer or bladder product - experiment 131. So I tried the damping pads in place of the spikes and removed the soft footers and bladders - 131a. The result was better in this configuration 131a - and I was beginning to feel that this was a pretty good result. It was around about midnight, but I said "what the heck" and began experiment 131b. This time I used 300lb strain guage nylon (the 100lb stuff definitely stetched too much and the nylon coated steel rang like a steel string on a guitar) to suspend the Corian. Now it was getting late, and I was a bit tired, but first impressions were very favourable indeed. Experiment 131b rules at this point and the 300lb nylon cable showed absolutely no visible signs of stretch even when subjecting it to loads over 50lbs (after all I am suspending each shelf with four threads and so they can theoretically go up to 1200lbs). Resonance effects on the sound are now very low indeed, and I have some ideas of how to reduce them further. In conclusion, I think the suspension idea has considerable merit and that very thick nylon is better than steel. The Corian is a two edged sword however. It does ping, and I am sure there are still small vestiges of this in configuration 131b, but it otherwise has an excellent top end and bottom end, and the dynamics are very natural indeed. It may still very well be that if I find an ideal shelf material, that sitting on spikes may get closer to the results with suspension. This would get over the problem of the transport swaying after the CD has loaded, for example. But right now, suspension is sounding great - and believe it or not, my beautiful wife Sonia thinks it is "cute". For those of you that really love soundstaging - you have got to try this suspension thing - the depth of field is stunning.

Thanks for your kind thoughts on beaming me the slab Dekay. But 100lbs would normally cost about $US400 to get here, and that assumes they don't sting me for the awkward shape. I do actually have a cheaper way which is to get a NZ freight company to pick it up in the US. I am checking out the maple idea and seeing where the best prices are, but I am keen also to try the Neuance shelf which Caterham 1700 is kindly helping me with.

Caterham 1700. I have posted it off to you and it will get to you early next week - in fact the plane it is on arrives in the US today Saturday. The Caterham motors were lovely creatures. You may or may not know that when Lotus aborted the Lotus 7 Mark IV, it licensed it to various companies, including one here in New Zealand - Christchurch to be precise. With its light fibreglass body it was at the time the fifth fastest production car ever made for 0 to 60mph. Above that its poor aerodynamics slowed its acceleration and the front wheel arches - they were really just protruding pieces of plastic - waved alarmingly. They were not as graceful looking as the Europas, Elites, Elans and Esprits that I played around with, but they were one heck of an exciting (and occasionally wet) way to get to work in the morning.

Hi Redkiwi; Are you calling me Garfield? Recently, to audition a tube amp, I pulled my McCormack DNA-2DX amp out of its usual position on the bottom shelf of my large, heavy, all welded steel stereo stand. It has Melamine MDF shelves. After finishing with the tube amp, I put the DNA-2 back in, and over the next couple of days was generally disappointed with music quality which was vaguely irritating-- bass was sort of muddy, mids congested, and upper mids and low treble were slightly bright and even wirey-- but hey, I had been listening to a tube amp for several days (I was also breaking in a fairly new AC cord). It finally dawned on me that one thing I had neglected to do was re-set the DNA-2s vibration grounding spike. The DNA-2 amps have six sorbothane decoupling feet and a coupling grounding spike at the bottom, center, rear of the amp. This spike is threaded directly into the bottom plate of the amp. It's purpose is to couple the amp to the material it sits on. Yes, I know this sounds contradictory,ie to have both decoupling and coupling mechanisms built into the same component, but it REALLY works. After I screwed the "spike" down to the point where the two rear amp feet were just off the shelf (this is what McCormack recommends) I played some music and VIOLA' the music came back-- bass became deep, tight and solid, mids became more clear and well defined, and best of all the brightness/wireness of upper mids and treble went away. BTW, years ago when Stereophile reviewed the DNA-1 amp, the reviewer commented that the soft feet AND the "spike" were a contradiction and the reviewer didn't think they should "work together", but according to Steve McCormack-- not so, ie they DO complement each other; and hey, S. McCormack invented the famous Tip Toes. I have two points here: (1) this dual approach system really does work on the DNA amps, and (2) So why wouldn't it also work with other components-- at least those that don't have to be perfectly level such as DACs and pre-amps. It would be easy enough to check out, all that would be needed is two Sorbothane feet such as Audioquests Big Feet (or Little Feet), and a sharp metal cone foot (for a tripod arrangement). I don't have either yet, but think I'll round some up to try. Steve McCormack certainly has to be one of the masters of vibration control in stereo components. He is at www.smcaudio.com should you want to contact him. And he is a very nice guy. The above ramble is not about shelf materials, but I think it is certainly germane to your subject. Cheers. Craig.

Caterham: Both shelves (whole and with a hole) were cut from the same piece of MDF, there were no other shelf materials involved. I did not power down the system or move my source, so the comparison was quick and easy. Their was no noticeable difference between the two, though both sounded bad. The shelves were used on my amp only and not the source. The next time I will try 1" MDF with and without the hole. The 3/4" MDF is definitely too thin for the 24" stretch. I have Musical Fidelity X gear (the funny shaped stuff) which limits what I can do. I am really dependent on the platform as I cannot change the feet on the components. I also do not have enough clearance left in the cabinet to add more than 1/2" to the sandwich. I had to power down this morning to add my new dual mono power amp (which has a bad hum in both of the channels past 9 O'clock on the gain) so I will wait a few weeks to try the 1" shelf. I already requested a call tag for the amp and hopefully it can be repaired as it is the only one available. I already tried switching polarity, isolating cords and the power supply, etc., so it is something internal most likely in the separate power supply as both channels are humming. Anyway, the reduced mass theory is sound - the materials in their application were just not up to par for a decent evaluation. Aside from function I have been thinking of how rewarding it would be to design the form of equipment racks as I have yet to see a stock one that I would want in my living room. We have very diversified tastes that range from a late 1800s black lacquered bent wood settee to the original umbrella chair, but none of the racks cut it as far as I am concerned.

I'm going to try one of Caterham's Neuance shelves under my CDP as soon as it gets here, and hope it clarifies the top octave without changing spectral balance. Mark (Redkiwi)...I'm not sure how a suspension would be very different from an air bladder re horizontal microdisplacement. You like it though, eh? Does it jiggle clockwise or downunderwise? Cheers! Ernie

Sorry Craig (Garfish) - slip of the tongue. I have indeed come across and experimented with the single spike idea as Theta have used it in their transports, and I have owned a few of those. I have found that the best footer for an application is very dependent on the shelf used. With something like MDF you can be best to use damped cones like BDR, but spike and soft footers together is also good as you say. But I still don't rate MDF highly. Since my last post I have persevered with the suspending of Corian shelves from a steel rack using thick nylon wire, and tried various footers. (The biggest pain is designing a means of levelling the shelves without introducing vibrations.) The best (after trying several different types) is to use a very hard rubber footer, and Vibrapods work quite well too. Cones are too hard with the Corian, and spikes are definitely out of the question. The use of either (including up-pointed spikes under the shelf) result in a severe resonance adding grain and edge to the midband. The results I am getting are now very very good indeed and much better than MDF or the particle board I had been using which was only a bit better than MDF. While I am very happy with the results, I will not be able to rest until I have tried some of the other ideas posted here, especially the Neuance shelf and the maple butchers block. Ernie (Subaruguru), I am sure there must be microdisplacement, but in any vibrating system there will be microdisplacement. In a suspended system the displacement is larger, but slower moving - whether this is better or worse is for the ears to decide. I hear suspension as sounding very different from the bladder products. To put it in a nut-shell. A shelf sitting on a rack tends to add resonant peaks to the music, damage harmonic structure and reduce depth. Using different compounds just moves the resonance around and some are better than others, but none that I have heard reduce the resonances down even close to inaudibility. Placing a bladder product between shelf and component tends to fix each of these problems pretty well, but adds a new one in that it tends to cause a suck-out somewhere, usually in the mid-bass or upper-bass, destroying rhythm. Suspending a shelf can have various results depending on the wire used, but with thick nylon wire resonances are much reduced compared with sitting the shelf on the rack, with none of the suck-out problems of bladder products. Resonance is not totally eliminated and you can still hear the differences between shelves and footers. In addition to this I have discovered that Corian shelves, used with soft footers, can give terrific results, particularly if you want more power (and I mean a lot more) and articulation in the bass.

To all the speculation about suspending shelves and the effect on sound, Arcici Suspense Rack uses air bladders in combination with suspended shelves, $2000+ many good reviews but price is high. I would recommend reading some reviews to understand how this appraoch works. For more info on what a shelf does, and the theory behind proper construction go to Symposium site http://www.symposiumusa.com/index.html My approach which preserves visual integrety and financial sanity is to purchase a reasonable priced rack system like Target, Polycrystal and use stock shelves and fine tune with cheap isolation tweaks, cones...vibrapods....bladders etc. Isolation tweaks have more effect than shelf thickness and what type of wood/plastic you use.

Sam: What have you used sussecfully under the "X" components? Have you found a way to get around the stock integral feet, or do you use the stock feet in your formula? I am just playing with the amp(s) for now but may pick up the X-Ray (used) and later add a DAC as you suggested.

Dekay I set X series amps directly on shelf no isolation. X series preamp I would put 4 #2 vibrapods directly under body, there is enough height to clear stock feet, I would try this also for X-A1 integrated. For X-ray CDP definitely go with 4 vibrapods, needs a fuller, richer sound IMO. With full size components I prefer partially inflated inner tube to vibrapods if you want a fuller, richer sound. For leaner more detail go with cone solution, for nuetral more detail go with Aurios MIB or Rollerblock.

Thanks Sam: I did not realize that the Pods would raise the X gear enough. I have a set here (right under my nose) and yes they work like a charm. I guess that the SS preamp section is then more succeptable to vibration than the SS power amp. I use wheelbarrow tubes under our two box mini system and the improvement is startling. It makes a cheap little system very listenable in the main bedroom. All that I have ever done to the mini system other than the tubes is to use Kimber 4VS cable and upgrade the speakers to Polk RT15's ($90.00 a pair on closeout). I will always keep it around (due to it's tape decks) to listen to old Disco tapes as well as Bio-feedback tapes that I use.

Thanks all for an interesting thread. There is a product for telescopes that might have an application here at a relatively simple level. Celestron Vibration Suppression Pads are designed to slip under tripod feet--picture a concave hockey puck composed of a center disk suspended in a ring of relatively mushy material, suspended in a ring of relatively hard material which rests on the ground. Typical applications place maybe five to thirty pounds on each pad. Not sure what the engineered upper weight limit is. They've been around for years and really do work to damp visually observable vibration in whatever sits on them. VSP's are sold in packs of three for about $44. After reading all this I'm considering putting my rack on them. I can't picture spikes in my wood floor. For a picture see www.celestron.com/access/tri.htm. One dealer is Anacortes Optical at www.buytelescopes.com.

Megasam, you are right that the range of footers have a wide range of effects on the sound, but if significant vibration is getting to them then all they do is move the problem around the spectrum. But as my quest continues and I am reducing audible resonance through rack/shelf strategy, it is noticeable that different footers begin to sound more and more similar. Footers are an important part in the equation, but to obtin high resolution through concentrating mainly on footers, is not the best way to go IMO. Kdmeyer - I will follow that one up, it sounds very interesting indeed.

Where do you purchase Corian? If it is readily available and stiff enough for a 24" stretch between supports I may want to try it for my second amp/preamp shelf. I do not mean to drive anyone crazier, but the best sound for my CD player so far has been Vibrapods resting on the "Persimmon" wood that my cabinet is made of.

Dekay, DuPont Corian is a readily available material used for countertop installations and can be ordered thru most home improvement centers.You should have no troubles spanning 24 inches.

Thank you Caterham for not calling me dim. I have seen Corian on "This Old House" but did not make the connection. It is much easier to source than Persimmon.

I have played around with the hard rubber footers and Vibrapods a bit more now and my vote is now with the Vibrapods. The hard rubber footers are a bit dark sounding, and may explain Recres not liking Corian. Corian is definitely not perfect - there are probably better shelves, such as from Neuance or the Maple butchers block. I am just saying that if decoupled from the rack (in my case by nylon fishing line) and if decoupled from the component with Vibrapods, I get a good result. The most positive aspect of Corian is a thumping and deep bass, that is fast and agile, but the tendency to mid-range grain rules out spikes or cones.

I don't know much about youngs nautilus or caterham's, but i do know kevin from muse is pretty smart and his post reminds me of what we joiner's, (that's cabinetmakers to you) call the torsion box. To create a dead flat work surface, you take 2 layers ofsheet goods, mdf, ply, osb, etc and join them with accurately cut strips of the material. Pin and glue the strips to both layers so you wind up with a "shelf that's as thick as the two layers plus the width of the joining material. I'm thinking of 2 pieces of mdf, 3/4 X 30 X18 with 3/4 mdf cut very accurately to 18 X 2. 6 pieces spaced 6" apart would be good and the voids between them could be filled with sand or marmalade or whatever damping material you like prior to glue-up. The resulting box would be 30 X 18 X 3 1/2, incredibly stiff, and dead flat. You could trim it out with your sitka spruce, kevin. Remember coming to my place in florida, giving up on grounding and sheilding away the hum in my muse one pre-amp and sending me another with a whole new internal grounding system? You are the man!

Give that man a cigar! :^) Neuance has been described as a "Box filled with custard". This, of course, is not perfectly accurate as I prefer firm meringues instead. ;^) Best, Ken

At the risk of asking a really dumb question........I am not familiar with Corian. How does it compare to Formica (over MDF) as used here in the USA for counter tops etc? Thanks. Craig

Corian is available, mainly by catalogue and online in what dupont calls "hobbyist sizes". Dupont actually licenses fabricators, going to their shops and determining if they have the expertise to fabricate and install. It is sold through home centers only on an installed basis. Check the back of Fine woodworking, etc. for ads. As it is an acrylic based material in 1/2" thick sheets, there is no way it would span 24" with a load of 30lbs or more and not sag or even break. As a countertop it is bonded to 3/4 particle board. When the combination of corian and particle board is extended more than 10" beyond a cabinet side, for example as a breakfast bar, the fabricator is required to furnish supports at a minimum of 24" spacing. You may be able to purchase suitable sized pieces from a fabricator, just as you would buy small pieces of granite or marble, but keep in mind the necessity for the use of a substrate, the particle board. Working corian requires carbide tipped tooling for the router of at least 2 1/2 h.p. and the tablesaw, at least 5 h.p. The material safety data sheets stress the use of dust masks and dust control in confined (indoors) spaces; it makes a hell of a mess, extremely fine dust. At one time a dealer friend of mine was using corian as a replacement deck for the vpi hw-19 table with the encouragement of harry weisfeld, i.e., harry was selling him parts. The sound was awesome.

My understanding is that Corian is made of very dense acrylic polymer. It is a good deal heavier, harder and more rigid than perspex, and comes standard in 12mm thick sheets. I am spanning about 19 inches supporting a 40 lb CD Transport and there is NO sign of any bend in it whatsover - and this includes when I support the front of the Transport with a centrally located footer. I have played some more and tried damping the Corian. This means using cones is now best for footers. But I am not sure the sound is significantly better, just different. I do not want to hype Corian, but I probably have. It is certainly not ideal, I am just having fun exploring its capabilities and I am getting some good results. I am beginning to feel it has some of the characteristics of sand boxes - terrific firmness, extension and articulation in the bass, but a slight deadness creeps into the mids and highs - a slight absence of presence - hence whay I am feeling the need to play around with ways to remove the mid-band resonance with damping, either direct or by way of footer. Corian is used as a CD puck in CEC belt-drive turntables, and also as part of the cabinets in some very expensive speaker systems (eg. Pipedreams). I would only rate it 7 out of 10 for a shelf material, but better than anything I have yet tried. I would rate the suspension idea as more like 9 out of 10 so far.

OK - I know I have gone around in circles on this, but can now conclude my findings until some of the stuff I have ordered from the US arrives - probably two weeks time. Suspension - much less resonance than conventional supports, but need to use a non-resonant wire for best effect, heavy guage nylon fishing line is good - forward images are more forward, plus greater depth and 3D images, bass region is very clean allowing mid-bass to propel the music, everything is a bit more present, and resolution is enhanced. Corian - is a bit like other heavy supports like marble, perspex etc in that its bass is very strong, but that there is resonance across a wide band (ie. not peaky) throughout the midband which sounds like grain - this can be reduced by using pads instead of spikes to support the Corian, but is even better if suspended on wire - this resonance effect can be almost totally eliminated by selecting the right footer. After much experimentation I have concluded that Vibrapods are the best with Corian. I found that the use of soft rubber footers was plain muddy. I found that using cones or hard rubber footers was OK but had a slightly dead quality (referred to by Recres above), shades of what I hear in spades with sand boxes. Last night I got a bucket of Vibrapods and painstakingly selected the best model and placement until I had optimised the sound. The result was fantastic, and much better than my first attempts with Vibrapods when I was using higher model numbers than I wound up using last night. There is NO vestige of the dead quality now and the music is highly involving - that bass just propels things along beautifully. I have performed some more experiments with the Corian in terms of its ability to support heavy equipment and find I cannot agree at all with Kitch29 above, but my Corian shelves span 19 inches, not 24 inches of course. My shelves have no trouble supporting my 130W valve monoblocks and do not sag at all. For very heavy amps I guess you could be better to bond two pieces together. I am not saying Corian is ideal, but the combination of suspension, Corian and careful selection of Vibrapods is giving a result that is light years ahead of conventional glass or MDF shelves. I expect that the Neuance shelves, Polycrystal shelves, and Maple butchers are capable of even better results - but right now my shelf obsession has abated somewhat. I will report on these other shelves in a few weeks time when they arrive.

Redkiwi: Are the Corian platforms still suspended (hanging) or are they on stationary supports? I am losing track at this point. Also, whether stationary or suspended are the Pods sandwiched between the Corian and your components? I do not know how much time Craig at Vibrapods has to spare but I will let him know about this thread as he may want to play as well.

Redkiwi: I.m shocked, shocked and dismayed that you would flaunt the advice of E.I. duPont deNemours in your cavalier treatment of their material. It should come as no surprise to you that I have already given your name to them. Please, no protestations, you have brought the consequences upon yourself! And if you can resist the temptation to sit on your countertops, errr, shelves, I'm glad to hear they can take the weight.

RedKiwi: Are you using the 'pods under the component, or under the shelf? IF under the component, this leads me to believe that you should (sorry) try the same combination of 'pods that you have found to be optimised to your gear with the other shelf materials, if you want to be sure that the shelf is playing as large a role as you believe. It's just the scientist in me, baby. IF you are using the 'pods under the shelf itself, wouldn't it be possible to build a really dead and heavy rack (what we all need, with our gear strewn about the floor) and then use the pod scheme to decouple the shelf and component from the rack?

Thanks Kitch29 and Redkiwi for the discussion of Corian-- sounds like it's a bitch to work with, and probably best to get it pre-cut to size by the pros. Has anyone used plain ol' formica on MDF? And maybe with formica also on the bottom of the MDF? Cheers. Craig

Dekay, right now they are still suspended and I prefer them that way. Yes the Vibrapods are sandwiched between the Corian and the component. Ghthirteen, I have tried the Vibrapods with other shelves made of glass, marble, perspex and mdf and found them to be inferior to using Townshend Seismic Sinks every time, and even when not using the sinks I have preferred BDR cones over Vibrapods with mdf. But BDR cones do not work so well with shelves like marble, perspex or Corian. [I actually have other cones from Walker, Golden Sound and others but these posts are long enough without describing them as well.] This is the first time I have liked the Vibrapods over everything else. In other applications I have considered them good value for money only. You may be right in suggesting massive and dead and then use the Vibrapods. I think massive and dead works best with a concrete floor, but that light and rigid is best with a floppy floor ie. wood. Kitch29 - I hope my offence isn't extraditable. I actually had no problem drilling holes in the Corian (for the suspension trick), but cutting is probably a whole other matter. I got mine by making it plain my application was an engineering one, not to make my own bench tops, and enquired about off-cuts - but I know what you mean about licensed fabricators. Garfish, I have tried mdf with a veneer that is half way between melamine and formica. It was not bad and worked well with cones. But in anyguise I have never been thrilled by the muddiness of mdf.

Sorry about this late posting, just saw it tonight. Looks like you're almost done experimenting so I'll throw something new into the fire and see what burns! An earlier posting mentioned Maple butcher block and I thought I had seen something in an audio site. At www.audionut.com, in "Products" and "Control Vibration" tabs, they carry a 1 3/4" x 17" x 12" maple board (doesn't look like butcher block) for $50 to be placed on top of your component(!). Hmmm!?! They are also carrying an isolation foot called the Aurios, which I first noticed this summer, that seem intriguing at the very least. Might be a b*tch with large power cords, as the feet have to balance in all directions and not "pull". Neither product has been tried by anyone I know, so FYI and have fun!

Redkiwi,Subaruguru.My regular mailserver has been down since Tuesday.I am able to receive but not send email via a secondary address-greaterranges@flashcom.net.Let me know what's been going on in your platform experiments via the later.I'll respond back a soon as I have service.

Redkiwi's shelf saga pulled from the depths for reference purposes

Redkiwi: Any updates on your findings? I had a computer breakdown and lost this thread. Guys EXCELLENT information and posting!!!!! Has triggered new areas to explore. I did some attempts to hanging equipment but wasn't as committed to audio at that time compared to now. I have now my amp on an airbladder sandwiched between two MDF pieces and noticed bass gain and definition. After reading this definitely I'll revisit the suspension alternative

Sol322, I am in two minds over the suspension thing. It isolates a shelf from a rack pretty well, but whatever you use to suspend the shelf has a sound of its own, a bit like a plucked string. I did have success with the Neuance shelf as well as damped Corian. The Neuance shelf is very promising, but with just one in the system, it is competing with the sound of four other shelves and so it is a little difficult to tell. So I am going to jump in the deep end and buy a set of Neuance shelves and play around with how best to support them. The Neuance is very light and rigid, yet damped and WAY outperforms MDF. You can get details at www.neuanceaudio.com.

Redkiwi, for butcher block material check Professional Cutlery Direct at www.cutlery.com. The only blocks in the current catlogue are 16x16, but they can probably hook you up with any size you want ro have something cut to your specs. I would think that the "end cut" blocks would to the best job. If it doesn't work for audio purposes, you still have a nice cutting board.

I bought a Neuance shelf, but have been too lazy to install it, so simply "stored" it on TOP of my Rotel CDP (which sits on an inner tube). I'll be damned if the top octave isn't cleaner!! Okay...no controlled A/B yet, but this appears to be a remarkable, VERY well made, and overly-well packaged product. After the holidays I hope to try it UNDER the CDP. I don't mean to have tongue stuck too deeply in cheek here, but I've been too busy LISTENING to music for once, instead of screwing with the gear. Appears that the Neuance is vetting cabinet vibrations off the Rotel, I suppose?

Subaruguru, just think of how good it will sound if you getyour hands on a few clamps. Tongue firmly in cheek.