I have the def tech 2002tl's (5 1/4" mids vs your 6 1/2's, 12" lows vs your 15's), CLR 2500 and BPX rears. I also have an M&K THX350 sub (2X12"X350w). I have the def techs set on "Large" through the receiver and run the M&K with the LFE out (based on a reccomendation from a def tech tech I called). I use Sunfire's Ultimate Receiver to power the system. Everything is run through an Exact Power EP15. I demo'd separates vs the Sunfire and couldn't find anything (new) within $2500. of the Sunfire that sounded as good, separates included (although Outlaw is a direct marketer, so I couldn't compare one).
There are so many features the Sunfire has that aren't available with separates (automatically senses where a signal is coming from and turns the amp on and to that input, multi-function programmable remote, etc.). I went on Bob Carver's Sunfire site and found that the Theatre Grand II video processor (retail- $2500.) is used in the Sunfire, as well as the same technology in the amplifier section as used in his separates, although they do share the same power supply in the receiver. Bob Carver states on his web site that if you truly want the best sound, go with his separates, but, for the money, the Ultimate Receiver out-performs anything in its' price range, separates or integrated.
Do yourself a favor and demo one- your ear is the only one that counts.
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Consider the Sunfire Ultimate receiver if u go receiver route, it should rivals some low-mid price pre-pro. |
I guess I should have mentioned I am not a newbie as far as setting up my system in that I have many of the interconnects already, and the budget I mentioned above is for the Receiver or PRE/PRO AMP only...in other words I have everything else budgeted for ($6K for projector, $1.5K Screen, $700 2 Monster line conditioners, $1.4K for Center & surronds, $500 for Tech 1200 Turntable, wire and other things like it are included in my construction budget). Also, I may mention I was a DJ and have a BUNCH of vinyl that I will be playing even though it will be mostly a HT setup. I hope this helps clarify some things. I really like the Outlaw stuff. Any other answers to my #1,2,5 or 6 Questions above??? |
I hear what everyone else is saying, I still feel the best bang for the buck is the B&K 507 AVR, 7 x 150, and a great processor to boot. Also it is fully upgradable,and well within you budget. This is MHO, and yes I do own one. |
Separates.
B&K has lowered the price on the ref.50 to about 2k or less.
Still need an amp. Lots of options. |
I listened to the Deftec 7000 series with a Denon Receiver.Everything was powered like your setup. It nearly rattled fillings loose in my mouth! The Deftecs do just fine with a nice receiver for HT. You can get a nice Yamaha,Denon or Marantz sometimes on closeouts in the $1000.00 range..and put the rest of the money in your pocket. I think you will be happy for sometime to come!
Good Luck! |
The Rotel receivers are very nice.. |
Be aware of subjective terms and phrases. Its your money and you should spend it wisely. Find a local hi-fi shop and go listen to high end separates and some high end receivers. I think you'll agree phrases like "this blows that away" are bogus in 90% of the cases you read about. Yes, a $5000 preamp with a $5000 amp will blow away a $200 receiver. But I have been through this and can say with all honesty when you compare apples to apples, you'll find you may like the green apples better than the red apples but that don't make them better. This logic I feel especially applies to home theater as explosions and booms are less distinguishable than the subtle notes of an orchestra, or a complex musical recording.
Don't take my word for it; go do some listening of your own and you decide. |
Don't waste your money on a receiver if you think you will be using an outboard amp. Try outlawaudio.com
Personally, I would pick up an Anthem AVM-2 for about $900 and an Anthem 5 channel amp for about the same.
Not a receiver made that can touch it. |
Well, I'll be the devil's advocate for this thread.
With the importance of wire (interconnects specifically) I think your budget would be spread pretty thin if you bought separates. I don't think you should so easily dismiss a good receiver (Marantz, Denon, Yamaha) and as money becomes available, buy a separate amp to use with your receiver (your receiver in effect becomes a preamp). I think the separates you will be able to afford with $2500 (not including wire) won't be dramatically better than a quality receiver, plus you stated you are more into HT than music; I don't feel you will get that much more umpf from separates just watching movies. Also consider that once you make an investment of that kind, you want to protect it with a decent surge suppressor / line conditioner that wont interfere with the dynamics of your gear. That will be at least a $500 purchase used.
Now start thinking about good interconnects and speaker wire to get the most out of your gear. That will run you another $500 on the used market.
I started out as you did, and I bought a decent integrated amp and then a separate amp for my mains (I was into HT as well). Now Ive dumped my HT gear and own complete separates, 2 channel only. Basically what I am trying to say is you are on a budget and cannot afford to buy EVERYTHING you need with seperates, so dont. Look at this as a long term hobby and upgrade yourself as money allows. With that mentality, take your $2500 initial buy-in and get everything you need to get your project off the ground: speaker wire ($300-400 for all 5 channels), interconnects (remember you will need AT LEAST 5 ICs to run your HT, $300-500), a good receiver ($1000) and a good line conditioner ($300-500). We havent even thought about power cords yet. All the prices I listed are assuming you buy used.
My plan gets you up and running with very good sound, and also allows you to upgrade yourself as you can.
m- |
I put together a modest system for under 1,500, buying mostly used and/or closeout. My speakers/sub are NHT, and the receiver is a Technics SADA10, that is not bad considering it is made by Panasonic. The dvd is the venerable Sony 7000, and I am completely happy with the results. Certainly not perfect, but see no need to change anything at this time. good luck
Cody |
For the money, the outlaw is a no brainer. I just hooked up an outlaw pre/pro and amp the other day for a friend. It's amazing what they can do for $2200.00.
Good luck, |
You're getting good advice. I bought a receiver and now I'm out looking for new amps, and wishing I had started with separates to begin with. Interesting thing about multi channels, some of them do not use individual power supplies for each channel. I don't know if that matters or not, maybe somebody has some experience with these arrangements. |
Thank you for the feedback. I have a few follow-up questions: Again I would say I will be 65/35 HT/Music...and speakerwise the HT will have 3 fronts, 2 sides and 2 rears.
1) Would you suggest using multiple amps to drive the 7 speakers or perhaps look at using---for example 7 Outlaw M-Block's?
2) Do the Pre's mentioned above all up-convert to component? I will be running a Sharpvision projecter and it would be nice to be able to run a single set of component video cables to it?
3) I found a site on the internet selling the B&K Reference 50 Pre NEW for $1549....how would that compare to those mentioned above....although it would take more of my budget up....I imagine me upgrading my amps later on and would prefer to have a better Pre initially.
4) I just bought my Def's 2000's (wife fought me on them cause of $$$)and that is what I will have as far as my speakers go for the next let's say 5-10yrs....based on that I want to spend only where I will get bang for the buck and be able to notice a diference. I kind like the idea of 7 Outlaws with the Outlaw Pre would put me about $3K....can I do better?
5) I will need a rack, but again don't want to spend much on it. I would like something super simple that I can mount INTO the wall with a glass front. Any suggestions on where to look. Ideally I would like to be in the $250-400 range.
6) Can someone explain to me what bass management refers to? I think this is something everyone should know...yet I don't----can you believe I use to be a DJ in college? For you youngins---do you know what Virgin Vinyl is? :) |
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Agree with everyone above, seperates at your price range. Receivers fall more into the "anything is better than nothing" school of thought. Flexability is key to long range satisfaction and is more cost effective over the long run.
Dave |
I would still do separates with a budget of $1k or less - let alone $2k. No question, not an option. Unless you get something that works well together like a NAD receiver and spendor speakers. I lot of it has to do with the amplifier sections.
Plus doesn't it suck to have to REPURCHASE your amplifier sections EACH TIME you upgrade you receiver? I would think that would get cease to be amusing after one or two upgrades. |
Sean is not so far fetched in his post. Really, at that budget, you should do separates, hands down. Even the mighty Denon 5803 and smiliar aren't as good as good separates. And, yes, the amp sections are the largest part. But dynamics, signal to noise, and overall purity suffer in the preamp section there as well.
Also, the gear your mentioning is not that special really! I know, I sell it. IT's "OK" stuff, but with athat budget, you could do much much better. The Yam 2400 is farily plain sounding, especially when you use the parametric EQ inside. The Marantz amp also, just ok.
I'm exteremely familiar with those 2000tl's and center/sub. I've sold them for several years now.
If you're looking used, the Parasound amps gererally do very well i balancing the sound of the Def's! A used HCA1206 or 1205 would suffice just fine, and compliment the sound. Def's are usually a bit cool and slightly hollow sounding (kinda like Yamaha receivers in general), if a bit tipped up(although your 2000t's are better balanced than others in that line) and grainy in the trebble. The Parasound is a bit warm boddied,and forgiving on top, which mates well with the Def's indeed. Also, more expensive Classe and Aragon amps. But I think you'd like the Parasounds just fine...I've owned/sold all over the years.
For pre/pro's, if your looking for 6.1, the Outlaw is going to be hands down the best deal you'll find! There are more dynamic out there. But for what it offers, for $800 new, it's the deal!!! That said, you couldn't go wrong doing all Outlaw separates, as the amp (100wx7 or 200wx7 will put you under your $2400 pricerange too!.and that's all new!!!!
As for other pre/pro's, depends on what connection options you need. The outlaw at $799 has superb DAC's for digital connections, pure analog bypass for better 2 channel, and lots of nice bass management flexibility options(your center channel should still be set "smaller"!!!!!...even though it's powered!..you'll distort it at high bass levels otherwise).
There are lots of great pre's out there, but sometimes pricy used. About as cheep as you'd find otherwise in 6.1 for quality is the used Classse SSP30, Anthem AVM20, Maybe Sunfire Theater grand II/III, and similar with good sonics for decent used pricing. I think. Hummmmm....
Anyway, my vote for a "no lose" is the Outlaw separates.
I say that, and I've sold Everything imaginable from 6 audio stores over the years! The Outlaws is great value and a good match with your 2000tl's |
I know that this is going to upset quite a few folks that think that they have tall cash tied up in their HT system, but for that kind of money, NO receivers. NOT optional. Buy used separates. Most receivers, even the expensive ones, are built like junk compared to separates. This is especially true of the amplifier sections. Even if you don't need the amps to do bass, you do need them to deliver large voltage and current swings as needed within various parts of the audio spectrum. Most receivers fall on their face into 4 ohm loads because they are gutless wonders. Sean
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