Just to clarify again, I’m saying all wire is directional. The wire in all fuses, the wire in interconnects, speaker wire, the wire in power cords, internal speaker wire, transformers, the wire in capacitors, you name it. That’s why I suggested all one has to do to test this theory is flip the interconnects around assuming they aren’t shielded. But even if they are shielded it might be worth a shot. Somebody, please, put this puppy to rest! 🐶
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I would not question your assertion that in some fashion, the drawing/manufacturing process results in (however minute) directional differences in wire. I do question (actually doubt) whether you, or anybody, can actually hear the result of those differences when the wire is used in an audio system, no matter how high quality the system. |
gdhal"Would you say that wire is directional? And, if you answer yes, would you say you could *hear* a difference if connected one direction or another?If you answer yes to both, I have a business proposition - directly related to this thread - for you (or anyone who answers yes to both questions for that matter). Broadly, the proposition involves either a blind or double blind test where it is my position that you *cannot* reliably hear a difference, and it would be your position that you could reliably hear a difference. If interested, and if the amount is worthwhile (low five figures?) we can have our attorney’s draw up the contracts, establish an escrow account and so on." Are we talking USD here when you reference "low five figures"" If so, would $25,000 USD be acceptable to you? I believe you are in the US so this would involve air travel to me you need to make this worthwhile I will probably donate my money to a good cause after I complete your test. We would each put this money as cash into escrow to insure payment! |
Once again, people are glossing over some things here. On another thread, someone posted that Pink Floyd sound engineers built a recording studio and it details what they went through to get it right. About 2/3s of the way down in the article, they tried reversing cables and all of them heard a different, and better direction. It was quite obvious. Then even heard a difference in the grounding cables direction. Why is it that some here only rely on what can be measured and not heard? You're invoking a rather backward way of thinking. One analogy that comes to mind is with our justice system. Any judge will tell you that circumstantial evidence carries every bit of weight as direct evidence. Without circumstantial evidence (like actually hearing) there would be no progress. It leads us to figure out, to backward engineer something so as to fit and validate our observations. To someone thinking outside the box, it's painfully obvious that what is presently being measured isn't fully being measured. Most likely due to the limits of the test equipment. Naysayers should be wearing robes and hold fast to their manual, armed with switches to punish those who'd dare disagree. All the best, Nonoise |
@clearthink Yes, I’m in the U.S. (Long Island specifically) and I am referring to U.S. dollars. $25K is acceptable, but my preference would be half that. Keep in mind you and I would incur attorneys fees as well, so I’d like to budget some funds for that. While I’m sure we could agree to terms, I’m not open to traveling abroad. Would you travel to my location? Also, there is a lot of minutiae you and I would need to agree upon before we really go further. If you’re not in the U.S., we can skype first, etc. Tell you what, send a me a PM. I’ll respond with my skype ID and shall be available later today. Let’s get acquainted, shall we? Parameters such as, but not limited to, wire brand and type used for test, number of attempts in total, number of attempts that must be passed (i.e. determined correctly by you), whom would witness, etc. need to be agreed to. Admittedly, the devil is in the details, and the contractual arrangements alone could take a while before you and I agree (assuming we do) to the terms. I’ll await your PM. EDIT: By the way clearthink, for the record, when we refer to blind testing, we are speaking with reference to information in this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment |
About 2/3s of the way down in the article, they tried reversing cables and all of them heard a different, and better direction. It was quite obvious. @nonoise I looked at the article. You’re referring to the statement "We listened to 20 different cables. We directionalized them all first, of course. Every cable sounds different in a different direction. It’s small, but it sounds different. ." Thing is, no where in the article does it mention they were able to hear a difference via a blind test. This is the reason for the blind test; to take any bias out of the equation and draw a distinction between what one believes/thinks and what can be demonstrated repeatedly. |
@gdhal When a group of people all hear the same thing, at the same time, in the same setting, and under the same circumstances, double blind testing would be entirely redundant. The only testing needed would be to determine why it happened, if they felt compelled to do so, and not at the behest of others. Double blind testing would only serve to dumb down an event which is in it's very nature. I think no one could argue that almost any event can be double blinded down to pure chance. It's like I've said before: a cheap parlor trick. All the best, Nonoise |
gdhalI’m in the U.S. (Long Island specifically) and I am referring to U.S. dollars. $25K is acceptable, but my preference would be half that. Keep in mind you and I would incur attorneys fees as well... I’ll await your PM. $25K USD is fine however you have issued a public challenge so all negotiations must be in public so that we can settle this matter for once and for all! I will travel to US at my expense well it will be your expense this is not a hard matter to prove even though so many scream snake oil! |
Wasn’t the test basically blind since nobody knew which direction would be the preferred direction, for each cable tested? Even the person reversing the cable didn’t know a priori. Unless the cables are marked for direction you can’t tell by looking at them. If they were marked, they wouldn’t have had to test them, no? Looks blind to me. 👀 |
When a group of people all hear the same thing, at the same time, in the same setting, and under the same circumstances, double blind testing would be entirely redundant.... Double blind testing would only serve to dumb down an event which is in it's very nature.... @nonoise It's okay if we agree to disagree. All good :) To my way of thinking, the fact that the group all heard the same thing is precisely the reason for the blind test; to do away with "bias". The blind test would serve as confirmation or further evidence. It doesn't dumb it down, it smartens it up. So given your position on the matter, under what scenario should a blind test be used? |
geoffkait"An old philosopher once said, never go test something at someone else’s system. You might not like what you hear" I am unafraid I will test cable directionality no problem and donate my $25K USD winnings to charity lets see if gdhal means business or is just another winkly dinkler! |
@gdhal I would think that with something in the nature of designing a product for consumer use, along with the safety implications, preferences for consumption of a product, etc. Double blind tests would be of great value in narrowing down how a consumer chooses. Educators already use it (in a different form) and even in politics, with people unaware as they participate, in group surveys and focus groups (they unwittingly reveal preferences in which way a phrase or word is used). That was an extreme example but it's done all the time. I just resent it that it's always hauled out in these threads as the answer to all differences and does nothing, really, to further discourse and enjoyment. But in the end, like you said, it's all good. 👍 All the best, Nonoise |
$25K USD is fine however you have issued a public challenge so all negotiations must be in public so that we can settle this matter for once and for all! @clearthink If you read and understood my post, the "proposition" aspect was/is public. I went on to write "If interested, and if the amount is worthwhile we can have our attorney's draw up the contracts, establish an escrow account and so on". I don't think it's a stretch or unreasonable that you and I take this offline and discuss our agreement in further detail. I have examined some of your prior posts throughout the forum. You question everybody and treat all others as though they're wrong. Your mannerism is such that you clearly have an ax to grind. Frankly, I don't really care. Be couth. I don't appreciate your aggressive tone. If you would like to do business, the first step in that process is to speak with one another. I'm glad to do this - today - via skype. |
TO: @clearthink CC: All Interested Parties To further show my good faith, I’ll spare you the PM back-and-forth. My skype account is "gratefulhal", no quotes. *Please call this evening*. Note I do not leave skype on 24/7 or every day for that matter. Therefore, alternatively and as I asked previously, you should PM me anyway so we can exchange email address, etc. and arrange a time if we can skype, should we be unable to this evening. Signing off Agon for now, only because I’m getting ready to sit down and - you guessed it - listen to some music! |
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gdhal this discussion regarding your $25,000 offer is to be conducted here under the protective umbrella of the forums participants and moderators when we progress to a set of mutually agreed upon terms actual specific naturally private details will be exchanged privately but within the Audiogon private message system for everyone's protection. We can settle these absurd snakeoil everything sounds the same claims for once and for all but this will be a public process including the actual test itself for the benefit of the audiophile community. |
gdhal this discussion regarding your $25,000 offer is to be conducted here under the protective umbrella of the forums participants and moderators... clearthink, I thought we already discussed the matter and were to proceed to the next step. My attorney will create the necessary protective umbrella for me, and presumably your attorney will create a protective umbrella for you. As of 11PM EST, my skype phone hasn't rang, nor have I received a PM. I'm shutting skype down for now. |
This is really going too far. It's like when Romney held out his hand and said "I'll betcha $10K" on whatever it was he was upset about with Rick Perry (take your pick). It's like splashing the pot in poker. This will not end well and won't prove a thing. Stroke one's ego maybe, but beyond that....... All the best, Nonoise |
a couple things......from 1793 to 1837 a cent was pure copper from 1837 to 1857 a cent was made of bronze (95% copper and 5 % tin and zinc) from 1857 to 1864 a cent was made of 88% copper and 12 % nickel from 1864 to 1962 a cent was once again made from bronze ( 95% copper and 5% tin and zinc ) ,*with the exception of 1943 when,due to WWII, a cent was zinc coated steel* from 1962 to 1982 a cent was made from 95% copper and 5% zinc (no tin ) from 1982 to present a cent is made from 97.5 zinc and 2.5 % copper ......... as far as directionality....the faces on all coins face left except for**** ( drumroll ) Abraham Lincoln a copper coincidence? as for my two cents I'm with tommylion |
All that you have to do to alter the sound of your cables is to disconnect them for a couple of minutes then plug them back in. Then you go aaahhh sounds better! And there is a good chance it WILL!!!! First you just cleaned your connection by some friction . 2nd you let any static charge bleed out. The 2nd one is a Direct TV trouble shooting protocol for 75 ohm cables. |
All that you have to do to alter the sound of your cables is to disconnect them for a couple of minutes then plug them back in. Then you go aaahhh sounds better! And there is a good chance it WILL!!!! First you just cleaned your connection by some friction . 2nd you let any static charge bleed out. The 2nd one is a Direct TV trouble shooting protocol for 75 ohm cables. But try hearing a difference disconnecting and reconnecting if that were performed blind :) Seriously folks, I appreciate everyone's interest, whether you agree with my position, clearthink, or that of your own. But the bottom line is the offer I've made herein this thread is that of my own, so it stands to reason that so too are the terms. Apparently it's too much to ask that I be contacted privately. I'll let you guys determine in the court of public opinion who means business and who is "just another winkly dinkler". |
gdhal"I thought we already discussed the matter and were to proceed to the next step. My attorney will create the necessary protective umbrella for me, and presumably your attorney will create a protective umbrella for you." This is completely not true the next step is to design the means by which the test will be conducted the place the test will be conducted the associated equipment that will be used with the test to be conducted the proctors to the test that we will have conducted and how the public will both be able to participate in the test to be conducted and/or witness for themselves the test to be conducted those are some of the preliminary matters that remain to be resolved and these will be reviewed, discussed, negotiated and agreed upon here in public or otherwise your $25,000 USD offer is ovbiously not sincere and you have undertaken the means to extricate yourself so which is it. Do you want to discuss this plan here or move it into the shadows and darkness where you can "chicken" out and then blame the outcome on someone other than yourself? |
A couple of things if I can be so bold. All cables used in the test should have at least 200 hours of break in. Preferably using a break in machine but break in using music is acceptable. All connectors should be cleaned and wiped dry. The test system used should be checked for correct Polarity using XLO Test CD, in phase and out of phase track. Preferably the source(s) CDs or whatever should also be checked for correct Polarity. The source should be familiar to the listener. The system should also be familiar to the listener. He should perhaps be allowed to use his own CDs for the test. At a minimum the listener should be allowed to familiarize himself with the sound of the test system prior to testing. Kind of like warm up pitches in baseball. Loudness should be controlled. Time of day should be controlled. Early morning on weekends is best, or late at night. Testing during bad weather should be avoided. The number of consecutive tests that must be passed should be minimized. The number of people allowed in the room should be kept at a minimum. |
This is completely not true the next step is to design the means by which the test will be conducted the place the test will be conducted the associated equipment that will be used with the test to be conducted the proctors to the test that we will have conducted and how the public will both be able to participate in the test to be conducted and/or witness for themselves the test to be conducted those are some of the preliminary matters that remain to be resolved and these will be reviewed, discussed, negotiated and agreed upon here in public or otherwise your $25,000 USD offer is ovbiously not sincere and you have undertaken the means to extricate yourself so which is it. Do you want to discuss this plan here or move it into the shadows and darkness where you can "chicken" out and then blame the outcome on someone other than yourself? @clearthink The idea of meeting with your first via skype is so I can gain a sense as to whether or not we could ever attain an agreement. Essentially saving myself the time and effort of needing to endlessly respond to your posts. Also, keep in mind that even if we do agree to terms, our attorneys need to set it to legal language. And, if your in another country that in itself can be an arduous process as laws are different. But in absence of skype meeting, I of course remain interested in reading here on the forum whatever else you can propose. |
I am currently testing the cable "loom" of Monoprice ($7 for two USB, and a pair of gold plated ICs) My hypothesis is that they will do what are asked of them. The data will travel from Computer to DAC, and the analog signal will go from the DAC to my receiver without error or coloration. I am willing to risk $7 for the sake of Science. I am sure that the Nordost Valhalla Reference speaker ribbons sound better than lamp cord. They were a gift, so I am not influenced by the $5600/meter pair price. |
gdhalThe idea of meeting with your first via skype is so I can gain a sense as to whether or not we could ever attain an agreement. I am increasingly developing the sense here that your proposal to discuss via skype now is in truth an attempt to escape from your $25K USD offer to test my ability to detect wire directionality in a scientifically controlled test. If the purpose is truly to determine whether we can ever actually agree on the protocols for the test then that is a conversation we can have here under the "protective umbrella " and watchful eye of all here on Audio and including Audiogon itself. We will each I am confident have specific requirements and preconditions for this test and it will be up for each forum participant here to conclude for theirselves whether such requirements are prudent and/or reasonable or an attempt to escape our committments as previously expressed here in the forum. As facts presently stand we have only your offer of $25,000 USD on the table and increasingly your adding additional preconditions onto your previously open offer. Everyone here should know that I am willing to travel to your country and accept your offer of $25,000 USD to detect this directionality but of course I will need assurances that the test will be conducted in a scientific way and in public so that others can witness what transpires. |
My suggestions are independent of brand of cable. Great. Then your suggestions/recommendations should be moot. Please note that we are speaking here of subjective listening impressions, not objective technical measurements. All else can remain constant. Meaning all gear (amp, speakers, music, volume level, whatever). It could even be conducted in an environmentally controlled room, or not. Let’s not over complicate matters. The only thing we need to do with the belden speaker wire is disconnect it from the speakers binding posts, disconnect it from the amps binding post, physically orient the cable in the opposite direction, reconnect to speaker and amp binding posts, play the same music passage and then have clearthink state, “yes, you have reversed the cable” or “no, you have not reversed the cable” and compare that statement to what actually just occurred with the cable. Seems to me he/she should be able to do this 100% of the time, just like if you played Amy Winehouse, then played Bod Dylan and asked if the music changed. It should be that simple and recognizable, according to clearthink (and you, Geoff). |
You’ve not done much testing before, have you? This is what always happens in these $$$ challenges. One side wants to minimize the chances of success. That would be you. The other side should wish to maximize his chances of success, no?. That’s why Randi never lost a bet. It’s the art of running a blind test. 😛 People assume they can just walk right in and do it, easy as one, two, three. |
Randi’s testing regimen was looked at by people who design scientific testing regimens. It was found to be so badly built, that if it was applied in real science and real proofing procedures, that ... not one single drug or substance would ever be made available to humanity---- as all being tested would fail. All. The test was not even remotely properly built. That’s what you find when you look under the hood of the challenge. Surprise! It’s all this looking at the surface of things, combined with accepting the first answer, or deciding on the first formulated question, etc....such is the mindset that dooms the average person from ever reaching satisfaction in understanding the world. ’Good enough’ does not apply in researching any aspect of advanced understandings which might go beyond the common and mundane. As for any $25k challenge: it would only apply to two people: those two who are involved. Outside of that, it would be a waste of time and money. |
Big deal. No one ever suggested there was a standard for directionality. Recall directionality is sound related only. Duh! There are no technical standards for Polarity, for soundstage, for realism, for room acoustics, for speaker placement, for vibration, for RFI/EMI, for Noise, for Distortion, frequency response, dynamic range. Yet somehow we are able to find our way. Well, sometimes...fortunately, directionality is often the easiest to get to the bottom of. All you have to do is reverse the cable or fuse, whatever. Fortunately some companies control directionality, even for power cords making it pretty much a no brainer. No comment. I wouldn’t hold my breath for a MIL STD for directionality any time real soon. 😡 |
@nugat It’s not a concern for their particular forms of use. @Geoff As for Randi’s lack of validity, that is easy to find on the interwebs. I cannot immediately find the web link for the ’scientific regimen’ test designing dude’s report on Randi’s test, but here’s quite the bit of damning evidence in just one article out of what is likely to be more than a few. https://weilerpsiblog.wordpress.com/randis-million-dollar-challenge/ |
Sorry, that article you linked to is completely inaccurate. Randi’s education foundation is/was loaded to the gills with technical folks who helped Randi develop his test procedures. Randi had precious little to do with it. He did not get involved with discussions with potential challengers either. He had a committee that dealt with all that. Randi was neither technical nor an audiophile. He was a magician. |
I was merely providing a research pathway, as there is no simple answer, only complex ones that take time to discern. As well, as you might and probably do know, there is no way to communicate a complex long form answer to a question..to another..that those individuals will have to put the work in themselves. The end game is that entrenched positions of individuals as compared to a group....simply do not bring about change en masse. The given entrenched position changes one person at a time, like grains of sand on a beach. Which is why any $25k challenge will be a waste of time, for both parties and for anyone else outside of a few given potential attendees. for example beyond all the complexities of the quality of the test, and so on....there is something more problematic. Something a layer deeper in or down. Something that is most difficult to swallow, or deal with is that objectivity has been scientifically proven, through and by hundreds of vetted tests, to be a non existent thing. This is now coming at us, as a group, from multiple directions in finished works and cutting edge physics revelations. Point being, that an ’objective test’ now has to be modified to deal with the new understandings of the fundamentals around the now falsified idea of objectivity. Otherwise the regimen as it stands ---is likely to be found as invalid. Getting the people involved to understand that new emergent fundamental (objectivity being falsified), is going to be tough sledding at best. How does one get objectivity in science to reform itself? Fundamentally? It’s a human ego/emotions/hind-brain problem, not just a complex and deep question of logic and data. The problem has never been the logic or idea of logic, it has always been the human filter and carrier. As usual, it is more complex than it looks. |