I am thinking of doing an overhaul of the cabling in my system and would like to know if 47Labs OTA Cabling system might be right for my system?
First the sytem I will be re-wiring:
Modified B&K ST-202 (Star Grounding and connector pts.)
NEAR-M15 & M50 Speaker's(Crossover-Driver Pts)
FT Audio LW-1 Passive Pre-Amp(all pts. internally)
CDP=Phillips CD-60 with an ART DIO (IC's to LW-1)
All IC's and Spkr Cabling will be using the OTA system Cable.
Secondly I would like to use the Eichmann Connectors,if I can find them?If anyone has a website that sell them and how much they cost please let me know?
Thirdly,has anyone tried these connectors with the OTA Cable?
Lastly,is there anyone using this Cable with Metal Driver's?
TIA,ABEX |
I use the Eichmann Bullet Plugs terminating 47 Labs for IC's. I have never used the standard 47 labs connectors, but can say the Eichmann's are far superior to another set of RCA's which I used first to figure out whether I wanted to stay with the 47 Labs. For what it's worth, I sold a set of Silver Audio Silver Bullet 6.0's to keep the 47 Labs/Eichmann combo as I felt it was superior in pretty much every way. This is a very good combo. |
Hi Larry/Abex: The only thing to research as far as your system goes, IMO, is the passive preamp to amp run. I have not tried the OTA with a passive.
The OTA cable is not bright/thin sounding and should be fine with metal tweeters.
I have no experience with the Bullet RCA's, however can say that the 47 Labs RCA's are definately a part of their clear sound. If purchasing a complete kit, I would just use the supplied RCA's and then experiement with the Bullet's as desired. |
Well I Guess that settles that!My Cabling system will be the OTA Kit!
Thanks for the help!If you can add any advice please do!
Oh for the Passive I would need to know what the Capacitance of the Cable is?
Thanks again! |
Bullet Plugs -vs- OTA RCA.
DISADVANTAGES OF BULLETS: they will require soldering, whereas OTA RCAs do not. Thus the Bullets will introduce solder- and conductor-related impurities in the signal.
The Bullets can be kind of tight on certain RCAs.
The Bullet plug shells will need to be filled with some material to insure that the OTA will not wobble too much in the shell. (I used cotton)
ADVANTAGES OF BULLETS: they are cheaper than the OTA RCAs. The can be attached and removed from RCA plugs without risk of a break in the tip of the OTA wire. Sometimes the OTA wire breaks when put on and taken off a tight RCA connection.
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Hi All,
Just an update on the results of cryogenically treating the OTA wire.
First of all, treating them means they need to be broken in again. Once I got the inteconnects and speaker wires installed, I thought "where the heck is the bass". I left the system playing at a low level for a couple of days and the bass came back. The may have also had something to do with the Gaincard and Phonocube being unpowered for a couple of weeks - I do think they need some time to come back to their former glory.
The best news is that it didn't do anything bad - which was a concern at first. It defintely makes a difference with interconects and speaker cables - a bit clearer and a little more 3 dimensional. With power cables, I can tell no difference.
That's it. I'd recommend it. Maybe someone will try doing an entire gaincard.
Austin |
I got real lucky and got the Kit for less than 1/2 price.With the kinda recommendations I have read and people have written to me I am jazzed!
I have a pair of solid core Tara Labs,so I will have a slight comparative basis to go by.
Would like to know what other's experience has been using this stuff as a Digital IC or if you can use it in that capacity?I will look through the post to see if anyone has mentioned it. |
Abex:
I ended up with a very nice OTA digital cable (it slightly bested my Mapleshade Double Helix anyway - even less HF smearing which is what Mapleshade is all about).
The center (+) lead was 30" long and the outer (-) lead was 60" long. The longer lead was looped around the shorter lead by the means of 5-7 half knots (approx. 1.5"- 2" in diameter).
More and smaller loops close in the sound (though they further define imaging) while fewer and larger loops open up the sound while making imaging less precise. The trick is to balance this out to your liking (the cord is adjustable in the way).
Per the originator of this concept (Richard @ Vantage Audio in the UK), this will work best with total lengths no shorter than 90" (the one that I used) and no longer than 120" (I did not have enough cable left to try this length).
The concept is loosely based on a design that Vantage either uses, or has used, in the past, though their formula (as it was described to me) is far more complex/precise than the cable that I made.
If you do not feel like going to all this trouble, just make the (+) lead 42 " and the (-) lead 48" and separate the cables along the run by approx. 2". This is not as good as the looped design, but it betters equal length runs as the sound is more articulate and open.
Short versions (under 42") did not sound good with my DAC's (Bel Canto 1.0 & 1.1), but some people seem to like them and this may vary with the equipment used. I do use 8" OTA IC's from preamp to phono preamp with super results, but these are analog cables running to dual/mono phono sections with but 34 dB of gain.
I also do not hold to the concept that 75 ohm coaxial designs are the best digital cables as these cables have been my least favorite so far. |
It is an intresting read though.I will try somethimg else.I tend to agree with the 75ohm theory becuase I am at present using CANARE 75ohm cable and it's just ok ,but not as revealing as I know it could be.
I have been on a cable quest of late and have a variety of cables coming and on hand so I will be able to give a fair eval of how my system will jive with the OTA's,but if It only works well in my system as speaker cable I will be happy.If it works well as a replacement of all cables excluding the Digital cable I will be overjoyed!
Synergy is a big issue with me after getting out of the reciever stage in my life many moons ago and becoming a more critical listener.
Thanks for the reply! |
Abex:
Where did you "get lucky"? I gotta get some of this stuff. I am not very excited about using it as an interconnect unless I can solder it to my RCA jacks. I am not keen on using Delrin, or any plastic in my system at all. Just as the EnjoyTheMusic interview says, I am in the camp that says we can't kill resonance. My entire system is built around this idea, and I have nothing in my system that dampens at all. I am not about to ADD plastic. Plastic will make vibration bounce back into the component and thereby making it harder for the vibration to drain properly.
Anyway, I do want to try some. What's the best place to get it?
Thx!
B |
Excellent cable!I just hooked it up and ran a few of my test recordings and it works just fine for me.
I only ran into 1 snag which I have not figured out yet and that is I could not get my CDP to work using the OTA.Will have to try something else to see why that is.
The best thing I can say is that the innerdetails shine on through at low vols. which is something I have been waiting for in a cable.The recording I use has chimes at the beginning and it always bugged me that I would have to turn the Vol. up in order to hear them.Not the case now.
I have heard that OTA a similar in design to Kimber Select and I do not have any ,but I can believe it.Vocals ,soundstage and Bass are phenomenal
Another issue that was critical was the Capacitance of the Cable.I am using a Passive Preamp.Out of the batch of cables I have and knowing that the Canare is around 20pfd this cable is alot better.
Thanks again for this thread as I just happend to get this cable due to another person having synergy issues using a SET amp with highly efficient speakers.I do not know why ,but his lost and my gain I guess! |
Abex,
Regarding your CDP, some female RCA's only have one or 2 contacts for the male RCA's pin.Try rotating and reinserting the OTA connector in a few different orientations just to make sure that isn't the problem.
Ken |
I agree with Dekay on his last statement. I am using Alpha Core silver micropurls as digital cables. And, these are the best digital cables I've heard so far. |
What are you using for a transport & DAC?
What other's have you tried?
I was leaning towards Mapleshade Double Helix Plus,but I am trying to narrow the feild down and that Digital IC is 1/2 the price.
Thx |
I have a Phillips CD-80 CDP and was wondering what IC I could use if I cannot get the OTA cable to work with it?
It still will not send the signal through.I also have an ART DAC unmodified that I am using and have to upgrade the Digital IC.Any suggestions are helpful.
Right now I am using AQ Rudy and Canare COAX as my digital IC.
TIA |
I recieved these cables from a person who had a 5w/ch. amp with Horn speaker's.He preferred DIY Ratshack Cables.I think that his low output from the amp might have been the reason why his system did not take to the Cable.
The cable works great in my system!Everything that i tried today sounded much better.I cannot see how people can say they cannot hear a difference in cables.It's baffleing to me. Maybe they just do not have sensitive equiptment.
I used a run for my Sub which at first did it not work.I the looked at the cable and found that they were not ringed through the small holes .After that I was able to use the cable on the sub.I then inspected the lines I used for the CDP ,but they still would not work.
If anyone knows of cables\IC's that I can use for my CDP that will not cost alot I would appreciate it.I am using a Phillips CDP and an ART DIO DAC that will be modified.
I guess I will try the Alph Core Digital IC that someone suggested unless it will not work with the ART DAC,The IC I need will go between the Ouputs on the DAC to the pre-amp.
TIA for the help! |
Abex: If you have enough of the 47 Labs cable, terminate them with Eichmann Bullet Plugs-you'll be out about $30 for the Eichmann RCA's, and the combination has been quite good for me. |
IS there a real noticable difference when using them and should that solve my CDP connector problem?
I will order a set to work with if I can find the vendor's addy again.I had saved it in my favorites.
I also am experimenting with PC's.Just generic stuff like Coleman,Carol, and American Cable to see weather there would be a difference in sound with my system.
Thanks for the tip I had forgot all about them. |
Abex: I can't honestly say whether there's a difference because I've never used the 47 Labs RCA's. But if you've been using any normal RCA terminated IC and they've been working, it may simply be, as Ken Lyon stated above, a compatability issue between the 47 Lab RCA's and the female RCA's on your CD player. For what it's worth, I sold a set of fairly expensive ic's to use the Bullet Plug terminated 47 Labs. I also used a cheaper RCA on the 47 Labs, and the Bullet Plugs are audibly superior. |
Do not know why it is I can get these connectors to work sometimes and then other times I cannot.It's like a hit or moss thing.I tried making a few sets with the example plugs as my guide.At one point I had one channel going for the CDP then I could not get them to work .
Anyways I wrote to a dealer to order some Eichmann's.I am sure they will provide the right contact.I do think the Plastic Connectors are kinda chezzey!I also think what they are asking for them is outrageous,but I did not get the kit new and I got it for below 1/2 price so I'm not gonna bitch about it.The guy that sold the kit to me was almost ready to pay 47labs a visit it seemed.He was glad to get rid of it.
I am waiting for a response back from the supplier.Thx! |
I have been informed that there is a way of Braiding OTA in order to get better performance and to use it as an Digital IC.
Does anyone have a copy of the way to Braid it they could send to me or what are your experiences with Braiding it?
I will also read past post on the subject.
TIA |
There is a new article that mentions OTA Cable that should be of intrest to people here.I could not copy it so take a look! |
I asked Audio Eng. what type of Spades he would use on this stuff?His advice seeing that it was so thin was to wrap it around the WBT Posts I have to both the Amp & Speaker's(3in.).He was correct!
Everything opened up after that.
Great advice.I was just using 1 small strand before that.I did not think about it. |
I am going to send a few short runs off to have Cryo treatment done to see what effect it might have on it.
(I will put Eichmanns on 2 pairs of exact lenghts .One will be cryo'd and the other will remain untreated to be inserted between my DAC to Pre-Amp.
Of what I have read there shall be a difference in sound,but the Q will be will that effect be positive or negative. |
I can't get my CDP to work at all either using these RCA's. Any tips? I tried reinserting, re-terminating. . . nothing. .at all.
B |
I had one side working on the CDP ,but I tried myself several times to get it to work correctly .No go!
I just put Eichmann Connectors on and they work great.Sometimes my IC to my Amp goes also.I imagine it's the conntect area of the wire itself.You can try twisting the Plastic connectors to see if they get the contact.
Just get some Eichman Silver Bullets and some Cardas Solder or 4% Silver Solder and make up an IC.I made up 2 last night .One I am sending off to be Cryo'd to do a test to see if there are positive results.
BTW I did not get the Silver Bullets,I wish I had.I got the Goldplated standard types.Either way they are probably the best on the market.
Good luck! |
Hi everyone,
I'm new to this thread. I am using OTA for speaker wire and interconnect for my Flatfish/Shigaraki dac, Fi super X amp and Avantgarde speakers. I made a special set of speaker wires that is a long single run to the midrange horn and a jumper to the tweeter and another from the midrange to the bass boxes. The wire is superb. I replaced JPS in my system and other wires such as Alpha Core silver. I've made a special power cord out of .65mm OTA with a single male plug and 2 sets of power wires and 2 IEC's[like a bi wire set] for the power supplies of my Flatfish and Dac. This is also a great tweak. I will be making another power cord for the amp and a Y preamp soon. I'll keep you all posted.
Happy Holidays. |
Cryo treated Cables have not returned as yet,but I did get to use the Eichmanns in place of the Plastic Plugs and that works fine.
Would have liked to have gotten the newer Silver Plugs ,but they were not available yet.Cost being another factor,they were something like 3x the price of regular ones.
Satisfied so far ,but I did notice the cable can be all over the place in the Freq. spectrum with the Mids falling out as has been mentioned.Waiting on a better Digital Cable also.
Happy Listening! |
Anyone who wants the best from the OTA, please use the supplied RCAs. This is part of the magic and design of this plug. Why go through a pin, solder when you can go wire to connector. Use as intended or you will never know what this wire is capable of. |
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I have to agree given that is the opinion of other's also.The Plasic gives the most direct contact to the post.
OTOH,I was forced to use a connector for my CDP.For some reason I could not get them to work so I tried Eichmanns whch seem to work fine.
I will be doing some test using Cryo treated OTA .That shall be very intresting.I will have enough to run Treated with and without Eich Plugs and using the Plastic Connectors. |
I agree with Brulee and Ivo on the sonic superiority of the 47 Labs plug over the Eichmann. In the end, I use the Eichmann on only one set of IC cables, and that is located on the TV!
I do not know if it has been announced already on this thread, but 47 Labs has recently started shipping a new speaker cable, and has announced new IC and digital cables, whose sonic superiority over OTA has already been documented by at least one contributor here. I think we should start a new thread on these new cables, since they have a new construction, and probably new set-up requirements. I personally do not have these new cables yet (I still run OTA), but hope to have them soon, otherwise I would start the thread myself. You can see a picture of the new speaker cable on either the sakurasystems or the konusaudio web-sites. |
Slawney, I was thinking about the new thread on the 47 labs new cables. But, isn't it too early for that? Shouldn't we wait for some time until the others get chance to listen to these cables?
Regards,
Ivo |
What is the difference in the new version?
I am trying to have some regular cryo'd to see if there is a marked improvement in it,but it has not returned as yet.I think at the end of nest week it will be here.
In the process of having my speaker crossover's reworked,new Binding Post and using the OTA for internal speaker wiring.The X\Oer's will be outboard also.The Binding post will give me the capability of Bi\Verticle Amping. |
Abex:
Have you considered changing the RCA's on your transport/CD player?
I have done this on my vintage amps as the stock female RCA's do not work @ all with the 47 Labs RCA's. The female RCA's on my old Musical Fidelity amp did not work well either come to think of it.
I however used inexpensive female RCA's which look to be the same as the ones @ Triode Electronics (they come with supplied with Teflon washers). |
I have not wanted to screw with my vintage CDP(Phillips CD-80) as the player is 12yrs. old and I was not concidering messing with it.Afraid I might mess it up and it's built like a Tank which I use for a transport.
I am now considering changing the Binding Post to my Amp and and will probably have my speaker's reworked using Cryo Treated OTA,New Outboard Crossover's and New Binding Post.
Any suggestions? |
Abex:
If the RCA's are directly mounted to a board it can be difficult changing them out, but if they are connected with wire's there is not much to mess up.
Anyway, if you ever get around to it the only other thing to check is if the RCA's use the chassis as a ground (otherwise they will have a non conductive barrier between them and the chassis/case, usually plastic washers on both sides -w- modern gear). |
I recieved my Cryo Treated OTA cable to try as IC's and will be having it installed in my new speaker's if testing goes well for the cryo'd IC's.
I also have tried the Eichmann Plugs with it and I would say unless you are forced to use them don't!Stay with the Plugs that are supplied.
My initial impression of the Cro'd IC I believe can be said to improve in three area's.They are Bass,dynamics and vocals.There are also things I did not hear in recordings before.The thing which changed also was the forward to back plane in the soundstage.Deeper and not as forward as before,but still clear with no veiling.
I will mention something else that might be relevent.I recieved 2 duplicate digital cables ,one cryo'd the other not.They have some impact on what I am hearing.Before I was trying Canare LV77S Digital to try with poor results.They veiled the vocals alot.I still need to switch back the Canare to see what happens.That might be more accurate from what I had been listening to up till recently.Infact one thing I did do was replae the amp-pre connection using the canare because the plastic plugs kept losing theirconnection.I did not like the sound so I inserted the Eichmann plugged OTA (not cryo'd) into that connection which cleared the veiling of the Canare cable I was having . Eichmanns are not better than using the straight wire when using it between my amp-Preamp(Passive).What I noticed when switching it out was that bass was aittle less defined than before.
These are just initial impressions which were done last weekend and have not had a chance to really have them settle in yet.The last test shall be when I get my speaker's which will have OTA cable running thru them.The speaker's will be the most advanced set of NEAR M50's which are no longer in production,but are still used by Manfs. that I have talked with as a reference.I imagine they shall not be broken in for 1-2 mos. after recieveing them.
Hope that is clear enough to understand
Till then regards and happy listening! |
Is anyone using the new 4719 speaker cable? How does it compare to OTA?
- Ken |
What is the 4719 speaker cable you are refering to.I would not be best to give a response.
What I can tell you is that the OTA Cable is FAST!I have had other's state they have had good results using it for internal wiring of speaker's which I will be trying.The only link in my system I am using something other than the OTA is the Digital IC.I am using a Cryo treated Belden run for that link,but in the the future I will try something else.
I got tired of mixing and matching wires and wanted to try something different.OTA was an option and other's have commented that is on par with Kimber Kable that is as expensive as the OTA Kit.I cannot verify that,but thus far I am satisfied with it for the price.
One guy that is in the Biz replaced $2800 worth of cable which gives some validity to the cable.That being said it must be at the very least good!It might not be the best,but then you have to think of synergy issues and such.Cards Golden Hex is suppose to be better ,but look at the price to do your system with it.
As for myself I bought the kit for $300 through a private seller and he preferd Belden DIY cable hooked into a SET amp so that might be an option to look at for far less $$.
Another thing is that I am trying Eichmann Plugs which need breakin time and are expensive.Once the wire is fully broke in again things will change.
Cryo treatment is used by Jack Bybee to cut down breakin time.If it enhances wires to be on par with ultra expensive stuff that is fine by me.The jury is still out on that.
Happy Hunting! |
At CES 2003, 47 Labs introduced the Model 4719 New Speaker Cable
http://www.sakurasystems.com/news.html
" The conductor is a 12mm wide, 0.1mm thick OFC. When converted to a strand of wire, it corresponds to 0.62mm diameter in cross section and 7.64mm diameter in surface area.The surface of the wire was polished then covered with a very thin tubing. Comes with a pair of scissors to cut the end to fit to the connectors of your component."
8 ft/pair $600, 10 ft/pair $750
(add $75 for each extra foot) |
Georgia2k--I will read the address you had given,but I would not give out that much $$ for any speaker cable.The only reason I got the OTA was the sweet deal I got on it(below 1/2 the list price)and the feedback from other users.
Might run circles around other speaker cables ,but it is to pricey for myself.If I need anymore cable ,like for my surrounds, I will DIY them to save $$.
I think that my system is starting to breakin again after getting the Cryo treated wire back and the results are becoming more positive BTW. |
Something I find of intrest is the speaker's he has designed
because he is using Aluminum cast driver's.My speaker's are of that pedigree and I am having a great ime using them with the OTA cable.
I do not think they could be driven by SET amps ,but they sound like nothing I have ever had and they go down to around 32Hz. before needing support.My new speaker's will go even lower and have the same type of driver technology.
This is the review I found of those speaker's.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/47lab/shigaraki3.html |
Abex:
Check out carolinaaudio.com for similar speakers (same Jordan JX92s drivers, I think). |
As I’ve been listening to the 4719 speaker cables for some time, I'll try to put some light on this Junji Kimura's new design. The new cables are 12mm wide, 0.1mm thick OFC ribbons "dressed" in a very thin tubing. You can cut the ends of the cables with scissors to shape them upon the connectors of your amp and speakers. My cables came already prepared for the Gaincard /Konus Essence terminals. The only thing I did was to make them 2mm shorter in order to avoid their contact with the Gaincard's body. The cables are very soft and it's easy to cut them. But they are not as brittle as the OTA cables. With careful handling you can terminate these cables to the amps and speakers many times with no trace of damaging.
IMO, these speaker cables are superior to the OTA in every respect. My concern was how the 4719 will act in the terms of speed (accuracy), rhythm and timing because we all know how the OTA is good in these areas. No, the 4719 don’t fall behind the OTA. I have to say that 4719 kept all attributes of OTA but lifting most of them on a higher degree.
Regards,
Ivo |
Hi, Ivo!
Nice to hear from you again! What about the price? How does it compares to the OTA cables in that respect?
Now...I got curious. The 4719/20 look pretty similar to the Alpha Core Goertz cables which the OTA bettered (as many others) according to this thread. Then they must be much, much better than such very similar designs? I mean the OTA were praised as some of the very best (and to some perhaps "the" very best!?) cables. It's a bit confusing to see that a similar design to a design that was "beaten" by the OTA now takes the "crown" from the OTA. I can easily believe that the new 4719/20 are better sounding cables than the OTA, but then a question apears: was the OTA praised to high for their good? Just asking...
You didn't sound too enthusiastic (to me at least) about the new cables either. Perhaps a few more words from you and Sead could give me/us a better perspective. Thanks!
Cheers! |
I guess I will have to live with the Regular OTA Cable and if I hear a drmatic difference I will have it all cruo's.
My new speaker's will be wired with OTA so i will know more then.I sent the designer both treated and untreated which he will decide whats best after running test.
You could buy the speaker cable and use the OTA for IC's.
Thanks for the info! |
Hello David! I have never listened to the Alpha Core Goertz speaker cables so I cannot judge them. OTA replaced Yammamura speaker cables and interconnects in my system and I could only say that the OTA surpassed Yammamuras easily. No, the OTA is not praised too high.
I already wrote a few words about 4719 cables so I will repeat them. Not the big thoughts but it could be useful for the others:
"From the first moment it was clear that we have a winner here: 4719 is a better speaker cable than OTA. Better in every respect. From the deep, full and well-controlled bass to the full-bodied and smooth midrange and treble, the new cable is superior.
4719 has rightness and coherency in the best OTA manner. Timing and rhythm accuracy was also well preserved from the OTA. The sense of ease and smoothness prevailed during my listening sessions with 4719 cables but not at the expense of dynamic shading or slam.
4719 speaker cables present the most challenged musical information effortlessly with no trace of strain or congestion. There's more authority in sound: it seems that everything is presented more .
Tonal colors are more distinct with 4719, with more contrasts in the instrument timbres. Example: cymbals now sound more metallic (but smooth) or acoustic guitar has more body with clear distinction between strings (plastic or steel) and wooden body. Everything sounds more natural and real."
I think that the price of 4719 is OK. The prices of other "high end" cables and interconnects are not OK.
Best wishes to everyone! |
Hello again, Ivo!
Well, I've got nothing to say against your words as you are representing your thoughts honest as always. Thanks for repeating the short "review" of the 4719 (I've missed it somehow earlier). When having these words in mind it must have been a real and significant step up in sound quality!
Sadly, I won't be able to "lay my hands" on the 4719 cables for a while, but it leaves me the second "winner" the OTA.
I've "experimented" with "Impedance Matching Audio Transformers" (a European version similar to the Paul Speltz ZERO Autoformers) to a great result. So for the short Speaker cables i might use the OTA (which never leaves my mind entirely).
I wish you many happy listening sessions with your system!
Best Regards!
|
I saw a pic of the back of 47Labs new speaker hooked up with OTA and Spade Connectors.
I cannot find the pic again and has anyone tried this?
I have my wire wrapped around the binding post as was suggested to me by Steve Nugent of Empirical Cable.
TIA,ABEX |
