Regarding Apogee.
Just to clarify new Apogee speakers were not exhibited at rmaf for several reasons, the main ones being that all new product is exclusively made to order for specific clients, as we are in the unusual position of having many restored to better than new original speakers to offer throughout the installer network. These represent extreme value, sound per dollar.
Yes - new speakers are made, to order only.
Releasing new product at a show is saying "look at me!!!" - and involves large investment in a show sales stock you actually believe you will sell. This can be risky. Many well known and well intended companies have been in the unfortunate problem of taking home all or most of what they invested in building believing they would sell over the weekend, not to be. We didn't. Thank GOD for that in these uncertain times!
TSW Rich's demonstration as an installer was primarily to demonstrate to existing Apogee owners the benefits of re-investing in currently owned speakers, and just how well such meticulously rebuilt speakers compete against current new products offered in 2008 by other manufacturers. Feedback suggests this was achieved. Our company ethics are against waste and for solutions, and the made-to-order and restoration work adequately fills our time!
Lastly, the speaker design that we considered showing at the show is called ENCORE. In these unusual times it was considered that time would be better spent continuing to refine and develop this to be even better, so release will be delayed.
Take care - Graz |
Glory
Regarding Vinyl in our room. On Thursday, set up day, Kara Chaffee, of deHavilland fame, and I were really sweating. Trying to get the room to sound terrific. I brought three sets of speakers with the intention that we would play all three. We had two pair of amplifiers, the GM-70's and the new 50A's, and planned to play both. Vinyl would have pushed me over the top.. which wouldn't be that hard to do.
Kara in who's ears I trust, was joking about the look of the Playback Design, and not saying much about the sound. On Sunday however she was telling most listeners what a big part of the sound that player was and hoping to have one to take to the CES Show. She is not easy to win over, nor should anyone else be.
Understand that she did not immediately jump to that conclusion. Her electronics are nothing if not musical and the MPS-5 added to that.
I am running on here but in a nut shell I didn't want to ruin my David Bowie and Bob Dylan records.
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'Digital can make any system sound like Sh-t. =8^)'
I disagree. There is at least one system I know that is an exception rather than a rule. Sadly not my own.
'The Playback CDP was the only one that sounded good at RMAF IMHO'.
Are you saying only 1 cd player sounded any good at the show? If so, are you 100% sure that none of the 'loudspeakers' were not to blame at all, maybe.?
I think I heard Apogees at last years show, very nice indeed. |
Bless,
What system are you talking about "that is an exception"?
The Playback CDP just sounded different than the other players and that for the better.
If one is bringing in a new line of speakers, such as the EP CS1,then why would one run digital on them? The CS1 is ugly but it was one of the better sounding speakers in the show. It would have been nice to hear them with a TT set up. For the money and being SS, I must admit, it was a great sound for sure.
It was very enjoyable to go into rooms with a TT setup and get to hear the different TT, carts and arms being used. Heavenly sounds that made the show worth going to. |
I have heard one of the UK's most respected hi-fi reviewers personal system on more than one occasion and I must say it brought tears to a glass eye. I am now of the opinion after hearing his system that if any cd sounds bad then its not the cd but the ancillary equipment namely the speakers. The system sounded very uncanny and way way out of the norm. |
Gawdbless, I have to disagree with you, in general. Most CDPs do sound pretty horrid through even the very best ancillary equipment, IME.
I own a Playback Designs, but unlike Glory I think that there are other contenders, such as Emm, dCS and Esoteric that are excellent in many respects. So far, the PD is my favorite, but I could "live" with some of the others.
Lot's of people do put systems together to cover up the weakness of digital, IMHO. They try to roll off highs and homoginize the mids, but I prefer systems that transparency and accurate highs. Unfortunately, only the best CDP will sound good in such systems, IME.
Dave |
Step,
I have a Lector T3 and can live with it and it does have some exellent qualities about it.
The PD was my favorite CDP I heard at the show.
But they all pale when comparied to even a simple TT setup.
The Garrard TT smoked them all. When you consider the money one would spend on a Garrard 301 TT, TA and cart it would be less money or the same as one of these phoney sounding CDP would cost.
Garrard TT $4000.00
TA $2000.00
Cart $4000.00
RC $400.00
Big ass CDP $10,000.00/$15,000.00 EMM,Esoteric. |
Dcstep, there has been an ongoing argument about digital versus vinyl for at least twenty years. while I certainly would agree about the best of vinyl reproduction being better than the best of digital reproduction, I find there has been a very great improvement in digital in the last several years. I suspect, however, that there is little agreement as to which companies now represent the best digital and even whether the best digital is to be found in CDPlayers or in music servers. I personally am a recent convert to digital off hard drives. There is also the question of sacds versus redbook. Here I still favor sacds, although I find there is a tradeoff between greater dynamics on redbook formats such as XRCD and a great sense of realism in the soundstage of sacds.
I also recent heard a demonstration of mono records at the RMAF that resulted in my buying a mono cartridge and mono versions of some classics that were originally available in both mono and stereo. I already have about 200 mono recordings, somewhere. Yet another format to have access to.
Finally, the Tape Project pulls me back to having tapes as a source. Here I will not give in. Tapes are the best but are just too much of a pain.
I suspect that very soon we have access to many recordings in 24/96 or even 24/192 are higher and that this may further improve digital.
When I first entered audio, ones choices were fm or vinyl. It was years before I heard a quality tape recording. I rejoice in my choices although storage and equipment are an issue. |
A lot has happened in 20-years Tbg. Digital is finally maturing, with upsampling strategies and hard drive server-based systems. I haven't done hard drive yet, but I will within the next year or so. Playback Designs will soon have a separate DAC and ADC. I expect to use the ADC to convert my D2D LPs to digital and move my high rez digital to a server with terabytes of storage. The next generation of HDs will likely close the gap.
I've got CD, SACD, DVD-A and analog and find that they're finally converging in quality.
Dave |
Dave, I just can't believe that the only cd players worth their weight are ones that cost $10,000+ and that there are only three that make the grade. If your ears say so then, that's ok by me. I just know, to my ears there a plenty of much much cheaper cd players that sound excellent, the Arcam T192 for Instance.
I would love to hear your player if only to drool over a cd player that is for me unobtainable. |
I have heard one of the UK's most respected hi-fi reviewers personal system on more than one occasion and I must say it brought tears to a glass eye. Gawdbless, Out of curiosity - What were the components in this system? |
Shadorne; I have mentioned this before in other posts, the speakers since 1989 have been Impulse H1's made by the Same chap that makes the Aspara Acoustic speakers, the H1's have been (I believe) been modified a number of times over the years, but remain constant with the addition recently of the Townsend Ribbon tweeter, and two small Rel Q subs, all the other ancillaries I have no clue as to what was plugged it was like a treasure trove of exotica, and down to earth stuff also. I can only attest to quality of sound I was hearing whether it be any cd played or vinyl, simply music. In my old system I used to blame the cd's for sounding terrible, then as I said I heard this system and what it could do with cd's, I changed my point of view that if a cd sounds bad then its the speakers or other items in the chain. Only my view, but I have heard with my own ears.
I would wager (If I were a gambling man) that his systm with a middle of the road cd player like the Arcam 192T versus
say the VA Mahlers with a 10,000+ player this would be no contest, I have heard the Mahlers and they for instance are not in the same league H1's, to my ageing ears, all IMHO, naturally.
Interestingly Shardorne your Speakers cost $14,500 and your cd player cost $480, whereas Dcstep's Speakers cost $3,500 and his cd player cost $15,000. Two diverse schools of thought there in heading for hi-fi nirvana.
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For the record, my CD/SACD player costs $10,000. You've got the speakers' cost about right.
Dave |
Dave sir, all the figures should be correct as I copied them from your 'system' as listed. 10k or 15k are still incredible amounts of wedge to pay for a cd player. Well out of my league by a huge stretch.
Anyone manufacturer should be able to make a cd player for $10,000 sound good, the art and skill is to do it for say a $1000. |
Gawdbless, are you arguing with me about what I paid for my Playback Designs MPS-5??? I paid $10,000 and it's still available for that price.
No one's made a great sounding CDP for #1,000 that I've heard.
Dave |
Gawdbless,
Interesting. Thanks. I'll swing by Lindfield (beautiful place) one of these days and have a listen to Impulse.
FWIW on "philosophy" - it depends on experience and needs. I have big spaces to fill and a passion for totally realistic dynamics and accurate (not copious boomy) bass. Despite what anyone will tell you - this does NOT come cheap in any speaker. My subwoofer alone is $10K - almost as much as both main speakers. The system custom soffit speaker installation was as much again. I could easily spend twice that on a CDP if I wanted to - but why bother - (do you really think I have not tried?). I do find digital to differ (slightly). Indeed I do prefer my Benchmark DAC1 to the analog cheap Sony megachanger output or the DAC in my preamp but it is not "night and day". While I do get "night and day" differences from speakers - although mostly in the bass and lower midrange when you go to greater expense (massive woofers/cabinets) and to custom installs (including room treatments). So like anything I guess my "philosphy" comes from both experience but also partly different goals/needs.
To sum it up I guess I expect percussion ( a drum set ) to sound like the real thing. I have never heard percussion that sounded realistic on a small speaker - period. However, even a cheap CD player can do a passable job at reproducing drums although the crash, ride and hi-hat can sound a bit grainy on a best-buy type player. |
Dave- are we not being a tad pedantic and frivolous?, but thanks for clearing that up with us, the whole Gawdbless household can now get back to a normal sleeping pattern, the dogs can rest more calmly now, the horse has had a good night also.lol. To clarify because you are being so defensive, I did say your gear cost x amount of $$$, I did not say YOU paid x amount of $$$.
Shadorne, where did you get Lindfield from? We maybe talking about the wrong speakers, if you can hear a pair of Impulse H1's (sold around 1989 in the UK)you'll be lucky as there were only 19 pairs made, to big and costly for many UK audiophiles, due to the average apartment, house size being rather small compared to the US. Hey you got a Roland V kit?,very nice. I got the older TD-8 kit (in storage), always wanted to play drums (to amuse ones self with headphones of course, connected to a cheap player like the Playback Designs MPS-5 with AC/DC being played, 'Thunderstruck'....).lol
Your kit is really nice though, I would love the TD20.
Funnily enough the reviewer chap really rates Sony cd players especially the cheaper ones, there was one that he said go and buy like now a few years back before they sell out it was a 761es European model, it sounded excellent way above its price, although probably not listenable to Dave's ears. I too like to hear a drum sound like a real drum if possible, I can forgive things in hi-fi speakers but I do like to hear the kick drum have a real kick.
Relax Dave its only hi-fi forum banter.Nothing personal.
I did check their website playback designs to see if there are any dealers local to me so I could go and have a listen for myself. If hi-fi gear gets praised, then I always want to hear for myself.I only comment of gear I have heard myself.
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The PD now (October 2008) costs $10,000, just in case Gawdbless has confused anyone.
BTW Gawdbless, what's all this talk about drums?? Have you got drum-envy or something? It seems to be a recurring theme that you intertwine in many conversations. I hear live drummers every week (real drums, not that synth stuff), in either my right ear or left ear, depending on how the band stand is set up. (I carry earplugs in my guitar and trumpet cases, for those "special" drummers that hurt my ears).
I do agree that reproduction of drums and other percussion are a big part of any good system. We all have different priorities and mine lean toward accurate midrange with stress free, musical production. Maybe this is why I prefer my CDPs to be free of glare and haze, while others don't find this particularly important.
Dave |
Dave; Its not a question of envy, everything has a value ie how much value is it worth to me?. If I wanted to buy a kit like Shadornes or the top of the range TD20, then I would purchase either one of them, I am not a drummer so It would be pointless spending money needlessly as I would not do either of them as much justice as a proper drummer, as I only bang a beat to amuse myself and pretend to be 'Moon the loon'. I do not envy anyone, like wise with hi-fi gear If I want something that badly then I will strive to get the money to purchase it, whether it be new or second hand.
I am sure your cd player is bringing out the best in your speakers, but are your speakers bringing out the best in your cd player? Just a thought.......no offence intended. |
I am very anti glare and haze as well.
I prefer balanced and clear. |
Dave
You are on your own on this one...Though I am convinced.
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Hey Dcstep,
I believe that Gawdbless found the $15,000.00 price for the PD player on your System page. You do have it listed for the above-mentioned amount...maybe you should revise the price posted on your System page. If everyone is paying no more than $10,000.00 (anybody less?) for the PD, then the $15,000.00 is not the list price. Just an obvious marketing scheme to imply a sense of urgency that appears to be misplaced. You know, lets mark it up so we can appear to offer a discount. |
Gawdbless, where did you get Lindfield from? Impulse Electronics used to be in Lindfield, Sussex. I did some digging and it seems they are in Cornwall now (Aspara Acoustics). Sorry, my bad. got the older TD-8 kit (in storage), always wanted to play drums (to amuse ones self with headphones of course Good for you! It is a lot of fun but do take lessons as you need to have a goal each week otherwise you simply won't progress. The TD-9 has very good sound. Although not nearly as dynamic as the real thing but pretty good for an electronic set - darn realistic in sound. No positional sensing so I am also considering a TD-12 or TD 20 one day in the future. (Actually I many wait to see if Roland upgrade the rest of their line - the TD-9 only just came out so perhaps in a year or two a new TD-12 will appear?) The mesh pads are simply brilliant - great feel. I use the famous sportcasters headphones and they work great - Seinheiser HD 25 pro. Not quite as nice sound as my trusty AKG 240 headphones but you really need a bit of acoustic isolation when playing electronic drums and as you may have guessed - these headphones are the most dynamic I could find! (Yes my taste for dynamics is insatiable!) |
I thought the Kaiser speakers had great potential, but the room they were in was an echo chamber. I could hear my own voice echo even at normal speech levels.
Rooms I liked in no particular order.
Oswald Mills
Soundlab
Classic Audio Reproductions in the large room
Lansche
YG Acoustics large room
Scaena
Von Schweikert VR9 and Unifield 3
Wilson Bensch
Vienna Acoustics The Voice
Merlin-Joule
I liked the Acapella Trios but they were a little shouty. |
Sarcher30, did you mean Vienna Acoustic "Die Muzik" or "The Music" instead of "The Voice"?
Dave |
"The Voice" is a cartridge by Soundsmith (I bought one).
Dave |
Sarcher30, I cannot understand how when you say, "...great potential, but the room they were in was an echo chamber," you can also say you liked the sound in the large YG room. That room was being used by the company who did the sound treatments in the Acapella room for the demonstration of treatment's benefits. I could not stand it for more than a moment or two. On the other hand the YG small room sounded quite good.
I would agree with you about the Lansche sound, but that is it. I thought the Acapella Triolons sounded pretty good, but the amps were insufficient for the loudness they were asking of them. The image also was too big.
All of this suggests how little we all share opinions on sound. It make all of this posting seem superfluous. |
>>It make all of this posting seem superfluous.<<
Out of the mouths of babes.
Nobody does it better. |
Aren't horn speakers particularly sensitive in the sense that small differences in the system driving them and setup in the room can have a larger effect on the sound in general than less sensitive speakers?
Given this, I would think it hard to take a pair of good horn speakers and set them up in a strange room effectively to sound their best in comparison to less sensitive designs. Isn't this why it's harder to get horns set up correctly in general than less sensitive speakers to the extent where they sound their best?
Assuming this to be the case, I would be more forgiving of a pair of horns that sound "slightly off" in a show environment and wait to hear them when things are truly set up optimally. |
Dave, Yes I meant The Music. |
Mapman, I think you are right, but this is also true about setting them up in your own room. The Acapella room was heavily treated and was quite big. The YG room was also big but poorly or untreated. |
All these auditions were only about 15 mins long. So its hard to come to any meaningful conclusion.
I had a 3 day pass and still missed some stuff I wanted to hear.
Also its near impossible to get the best sound out of a system in such a short period of time.
It can take me months of fiddling around to get a new addition (speakers mostly) to sound its best.
Alot of systems were not done justice because of the rooms they were in.
Tbg, I did go to YGs small room on the first or second day and could not listen because they were not happy with the sound and trying to work on it. Yes it is funny to read other peoples posts about rooms I didn't care for. That's why it so important to hear for yourself. |
Tbg,
If it were me, I think putting my system into a new room, particularly if using horns , could well lead me to change other components assuming that only so much can be done with most rooms to change the way they sound practically. |
10-20-08: Sounds_real_audio
The CD's...Most that folks brought in not only did not highlight the capabilities of system. I think I only hear a couple that I would have used myself. I suppose that is to be expected.
I try to play music that actually breaths life into the performance.
'did not Highlight the capabilities of system'?, I think it highlighted the Incapabilities of the system.
Sounds rather Unreal Audio to me.
I certainly hope no-one got their check book out for a cd player that makes cd's sound bad. |
Did anyone get to check out Tyler Acoustics offerings. |
With regard to GAWDBLESS's remarks about the IMPULSE H1 horn speakers, I have to add that there is a good website on the whole range of Impulse speakers.
www.acoustica.org.uk/impulse/impulse.html
Reviews of the H2 - which is a little smaller than the H1 - indicate that it was the best of the whole range....having used these with many amps from flea power to Krells I agree that they take a very good speaker indeed to better them. Also there were many more of them made! |
