Jtinn,
How would the VSA VR9/lamm ML2.1 combination stack up againtst the VSA/darTZeel ?
andy |
I guess I'm someone who prefers to lean towards politically correctness. So when I see a strong statement that is so obviously subjective, I prefer to have it clarified. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with personal opinion.
But whenever I read something negative about an equipment's sound, I wonder what someone is judging things by. I do listen mostly to small group jazz ensembles in my medium sized room. So for something like a piano trio or jazz quartet, even though each instrument is pretty dynamic, even at realistic volumes, visceral dynamics and ultimate loudness almost never come into play. When musicians are listening to each other and playing well with each other, you'll be grooving and the impact of the music will naturally be there. Then there are music that are meant to be beautiful. You don't want anything to jump out at you or the beauty is ruined. A lot of music systems sound quite musical to me, only that they do things differently.
But even though I've never heard them, it's not hard to see why the VR9s are better at ultimate macrodynamics than the Kharma Midi-Exquisities. They sound to me like different speakers. So many tough choices in audio. |
Rumney510: I happen to have a pair of ML2's right now and I would say the ML2's are quite a bit darker and not as open. They are both dead quiet, but the clarity of the darTZeel is on an entirely different level.
Although I prefer the VSA/darTZeel combo, the VSA/LAMM combo is no slouch. |
To me the comparison of the Kharma(overpriced,but superb)vs the VonSchweikert stuff is like comparing the "DIGS" of a RAPPER on a show like "CRIBS",who would clearly love the dynamism of the VonS' stuff vs the Kharma's,which would appear more at home in the home of say a composer of classical music or art collector,living on Park Ave.
As for the Dartzeel,why the sudden over the top enthusiasm.Sure it's a fine product,but how different than say a Hovland Radia,at 125 watts per channel and 9500.00 US list.Parts quality must be superb,here too.
Does a review in a Mag have that much impact on the "easily manipulated audiophile" who simply MUST have the latest stuff.When,SURELY other great products exist at a more intelligent price?Even pricey,yet great competitors exist in the form of Rowland and Boulder,made in this country,so not subject to world economy.Seems to me there are always those,some on this thread,that have to have the "almost unattainable",whether rare,or overpriced,in order to have real satisfaction.I've met quite a few of this personality over the years,and there is NEVER a sense of long term satisfaction,from putting together an obviously fine system.Too many new,rare,hard to find NEW products coming to market each year.Sad,but if it makes one happy,where's the harm? |
Sirspeedy: I can clearly understand why you question the comparison of the Kharma and the VS as they appear to have completely different strengths and applications. But I think people are drawn to the unique strengths of such products. And they clearly want all of these qualities in one product. So they jump from warmth to neutrality and back to warmth and to explosive dynamics to the subtle and then back. Since we still can't have it all, I think many of us have the desire to live with the "other half" for awhile and then ultimately determine what fits best for us for the long term.
I went through exactly such a period where I just loved the Magnepan sound. A few years later I felt I needed a more dynamic speaker so I sold the Magnepans. Then I longed for the Magnepan magic so I got another pair. Finally I realized that I needed a speaker with the Magnepan magic but also a speaker that was not so dynamically limited. It was driving my family crazy as they felt I could not make up my mind. But I simply wanted it all. And after hearing so many speakers over the years from auditioning other components, I found that magic with Soundlabs. And today, I am much much closer to that "ALL"; I will be content with these speakers for quite awhile. But it took a lot of time and listening to many products to discover this was what I had been seeking. Fortunately I was able to do quite well at much less than a $50k speaker purchase!
The desires for people here to have the very best or most expensive is hardly a uniqueness to wealthy audiophiles. The same applies to virtually all material items.
There clearly are some very "well-to-do" Audiogon members, but rather than look at them negatively as people who must have the absolute best and latest, pay attention to what they write about products that cost far less but have great musical qualities. Since these people have heard the GREAT products, their comments on the lesser priced products can be of great value to us "deal shoppers".
As for the sudden attention on the DarTZeel amp here, actually there has been much praise on this amp for over a year in these forums. This was long before the recent Stereophile review. And if anyone got much value from that review, I'd be mightily surprised.
And to answer your question on the difference between the DarTZeel and the Hovland, only a direct comparison, in a system where both amps are paired with a speaker suitable to both, could answer that question.
John |
Great post JaFox. I'm struggling between warmth and neutrality myself. :D
Sirspeedy, that's why it is always recommended that one stay off the boards after their purchases. We all get the upgrade bugs. |
I could not disagree with these previous comments,having gone through plenty of upgrades over the years.I am FINALLY truly happy,though I do have an occassional repetitive dream about winning a lottery.That would really test me as to my contentment with my (rather pricey as well)system.All things considered,it is probably "the human element"in a materialistic society.
On a similar thought,do any of you guys take the same pride and attention to detail,in amassing a really FINE music collection?This will truly stand the test of time,regardless of component upgrades.Sometimes a new musical find can have a monumental impact on the soul,especially a rare or sought after title.I recently found a PROMO pressing of Shastokovich's symohony #5 on Mercury for less than 25 bucks.Stunning sound and dynamics.Quite literally made my weekend,and some of my pals threatened to steal it,it's that hard to find,and good.I have many friends who have been downright fanatical with their music collections.A listening session at some of their homes is nirvana on so many occassions.Though a good Merlot,or Chardonnay helps things along.Best to all of you!! |
Sirspeedy: What you seem to misundersatand is that the Von Schweikerts have higer clarity, greater musicality and real world foundation to the music (which the Kharma's do not do very well), while going down to 15 Hz flat in-room. The do it effortlessly and with extreme refinement.
If you are in NY for the show in April at the Hilton, please come by and listen. We will have the VR9SE's and the darTZeel amplifiers. It should be fun. |
SirSpeedy, I hear you. The Kharma 3.2s sure provide me with clarity, musicality and tremendous satisfaction, so that I have ceased to look elsewhere and will not. The quest for audio nirvana needs to end at some point for each of us and AS 2.2/Kharma will be the end of the road for me unless one blows up. |
Jtinn,I happen to "UNDERSTAND"completely.I appreciate your comments,but I have my own set of musical preferences.It happens that I own neither product,but understand their different musical presentations.One can critique virtually all products!One thing seems to be obvious,to me.The VS stuff is fairly priced,though more in line with,what seems to be the Wilson school.The Kharma stuff is more in my taste neighborhood,but are INSULTINGLY overpriced,to someone who already owns overpriced stuff,already(ME).I'm sure the lucky Kharma owners will jump to the SELFISH IMPORTER's defense,but will never convince many,that I know,that these fine products could have come in at a lower cost.Euro vs dollar or not!!I will see you at HE-2005,hope NOT to get the 5 minute demo of last year. |
Springbok,you SHOULD be thrilled to death that you own such a fine speaker.IMO,the finest in the line,phony reviews(reviewers scoring said products,for mentioning,endlessly,brand names,in non-stop awe of higher priced models,review after review)not withstanding.Please!75K for a pseudo schmaltzy watt puppy.Now the CHINESE MADE vs JR IS lokking like a bargain at 4K.I remember paying 5 grand for the 4 piece Infinity RS-1.A long time ago,but the designer stuff pitched so heavily is for the "Have to have it"crowd that is priced way to high,even taking inflation into account.When do you think a responsible reviewer,wanting said product,for semi-permanent loan,will step up and declare that the stuff is WAY overpriced?Ha!Ha!I'm ready for the barrage. |
Sir Speedy, I am indeed thrilled to death to own such a fine speaker. I do not, nor will attempt to, defend their price point. What I posted for is to state that to my ears they are "perfect" and, as my 3rd speaker investment -1977, Alison Ones, 1990 Wilson Watt Puppies, 2004 Kharmas - in 28 years, they are probably the end of the line, that is how good I think they are. My post was not to make a point of price, but simply quality. I have no idea how the prices are arrived at, but as a 15 year investment, I was prepared to bite the bulllet. I have no idea how much von Schweikerts cost, nor do I care. This is not about elitism or buying the most/least expensive speakers, but what one is prepared to spend for long-term audio satisfaction. Period. |
Springbok,
Since I got my Kharma MidiGrands/Lamm M1.2/emm labs combo in Feb. I have been so busy listening to music (primarily alternative rock, rock, alt-country) that I have not been able to keep up on Audiogon and I have missed this thread grow wildly.
Now, I am upset to read that my Kharmas can't rock. I guess I better put them up for sale on A'gon, and get my ass to Montreal this weekend to listen to the VR's. |
Keep your ass at home with the Kharmas. But then you knew that. |
Springbok,I was definitely NOT alluding to you,or the 3.2's in my post.I think the little(only in size)3.2 is one of the most "musically convincing" and enjoyable speakers to come along in some time.Also,can be placed in a variety of differing rooms.I think they are a bit pricey,but so were my Avalons when I bought them.
What I was speaking to, was,and is,the endless mentioning of anything Kharma, by a well known reviewer,who just so happens to have these pieces for what appears to me and quite a few others,in the hobby,as an almost "you constantly mention how great the line is,and you can live with your dream speaker for as long as you like"arrangement.This is SO rediculous,as to be almost laughable.Here, this snob reports from CES,where there is virtually a ton of great speaker systems.He pays lip service to a couple that he hopes to review(God forbid,even one would be under 20k),and then,as is almost getting to be TOO predictable,he goes on "ad nauseum" about how,naturally,his new (megabuck Kharma)was the best sound at the show.With the little 3.2 as a leading contender!Keep pitching,Mr V.
I have no problem touting such a fine speaker like the 3.2,as 21k is not that out of the ordinary,and it fits into so many differing environments,but I HAVE heard the MIDI-Ex model,and although it is a beautiful speaker,can't touch some competitors for significantly less.Yet the power of advertising and the desire of a few lucky owners have pushed the pricing envelope the way Vinyl records headed in the mid eighties.
Ex:MIDI-EX at 75k vs Dali Megaline at 42k,or TAD model 1 at 45k,or Nova Utopia at 37.5k,space permitting the Grande Utopia be is still in the MIDI's price range.Not to mention a speaker like the Genisis 200's at around 45k which would smoke the Midi EX,as would any other I've listed here.No wonder Von S is killing the competition.More power to him!!
I have no real vendetta,but would like to see a sense of sanity restored to both the hobby,and audio press.I'm not holding my breath. |
i've gone back and forth whether to respond to 'Cinematic Systems' regarding his interpretation of mine and other posts as some sort of dismissal of Kharma in favor of Von Schweikert. i guess some response is in order.
first, no one has had a chance to directly compare the better Kharmas with the new VR9SE as of yet. until that happens any actual comparitive opinions are just that.....opinions. does the VR9 equal Kharma's coherence, Kharma's ability to disappear, Kharma's mid-range clarity? those are questions.....of which answers can only be guessed at.....some can even make educated guesses.....and some have.
i have loved Kharma's for the last 4 years and i still love them. they have a certain magic and will continue to have it. like any speaker, there are some design trade-offs. the Kharma doesn't plumb the depths of deepest bass, the Kharma is not the most macro-dynamic speaker. the Kharma is all about getting out of the way of the event......and having a great balance.
the VR9 may just equal the Kharma at the Kharma's strengths......if so it actually may be that 'speaker without compromise'.......since it definitely has the dynamics and deep bass thing down pat.
any Kharma owners should be secure and confident in their speakers. nothing has changed. we just have a few poster's that like to over-simplify things......if a Kharma owner (me) choses another speaker due to dramatically different room challenges......all of a sudden Kharma has slipped a notch......that's a bunch of bull.
the reason we have lots of Kharma owners is due to the very special performance of those speakers. this special performance has never been about the best anything. it has been about being real. when anyone tries to break down the Kharma into pieces he completely misses the whole point of the speaker.
people change speakers and amps for a host of reasons. sometimes it is that the SOTA has moved on, sometimes it is a desire for more bass or dynamics, sometimes it is a desire for a more intimate and non-hifi sound. i have changed for all those reasons at one time or another. there is even changing due to non-perfomance reasons.
as far as amps, while i think the world of the DarTZeel the Tenor is still on the same level to me......different but equal. both amps have their strengths.....and both likely have their ideal speaker match.
sorry for the rambling......but this whole 'better and worse' thing is just wrong. |
sir speedy; i heard all the speakers you mention at CES and in other places......as well as the Midi Exqusite's at CES.
first, i was NOT impressed by the Midi's at CES......and if you based your opinion of the Midi based on CES i would understand your comment. the same for the VR9.....there were times when it did not sound satisfying (other times magnificent).
i have now had the Midi's in my room for the last 2 months......and what i hear is on a higher level than those other speakers in terms of refinement, coherence, and simply getting out of the way of the music.
none of those speakers 'smoke' the Midi's to my ears......although if you focus on particular aspects of the sound you can make any case you want.
the Kharma's aren't cheap.....but this level of precision never is. |
Sirspeedy, I am in no position to comment on what is behind a reviewer's endless mentioning, but I do know that many audiophiles, including reviewers, can be excited and genuinely are in love with certain products. So I actually don't have too many problems with people who rave here about products they own or heard. We all have our individual biases and I find that learning them kind of puts me closer to these audiophile friends that I've never met but may one day meet.
I hate the Kharma pricing. I thought long and hard before spending pretty much all my savings buying my pair of 3.2s. But here in Canada, unless I buy Canadian, there's another importor/distributor taking a cut on the Sonus Faber and Wilson speakers that I was looking at at that time. I wanted the Puppy 7s and Amati, but couldn't afford them. The Guarneri and sub combo cost almost as much as what I got the 3.2s for, which I was convinced to be even better than the 7s and Amati. At that time, Jtinn carried nothing better, and his experience and service, as well as his proximity to me, provided me with tremendous value. There's no one carrying the Dali Magalines locally anyways, and the Utopia Be's, like most other speakers, would cost me around 1.6X the US retail price if I was to buy locally. Like Mike said, I think a lot of products are pretty close, and being able to drive down and pick up something from a dealer I trust, is enough value added for me. I'm not so critical that I would find many equipment not enjoyable, so back to the Dartzeel, I would have no hesitation buying it. |
Mikelavigne: I do not necessarily agree that a direct comparison has to been done. I do not believe that the systems need to be in the same room at the same time for a conclusion to be made. This is not to say that the room is not extremely critical. However, if everything else is constant, it should be easy to tell the differences.
I have had the Kharma Exquisite 1a Extended Reference Enigma, Midi Exquisite 1a Diamond Enigma, Midi Grand Ceramique Enigma, 3.2 Ceramique Enigma Reference Monitor and have listened to them with the same exact equipment and cabling as I have with the VR9SE's and I have no doubt that the Von Schweikert VR9SE's complete a package that the Kharma's do not. As far as the VR9SE's disappearing like the Kharma's, they do. They also, in my opinion, have a larger soundstage front to back, left to right and have much greater resolution, control and depth in the bass. As far as midrange, I find that there is a more natural midrange in the VR9SE's, but the Kharma certainly is no slouch in this area. Prior to hearing the Von Schweikert's, I had not heard better than the Kharma's other than a prototype speaker a local company is building. Another area where the VR9SE's better the Kharma is in the highs. Even compared with the diamond tweeter, the VR9SE's tweeter/super tweeter offer greater realism with more air on top.
Certainly Hooper and Mes share my experience and have had both Kharma and Von Schweikert speakers in the same room with the same equipment.
I have to say that I re-read this thread and do not see where anyone tried to "break down the Kharma into pieces". I believe everyone here acknowledges how special the Kharma line of speakers are. I just think that the few people who have had both prefer the Von Schweikert's. They really do most of the same things, but where the Kharma stops, the Von Schweikert goes further. |
Can I accept that "Jtinn" actually posted the message on 4-01-05 or was that an April fools joke somebody pulled?
He's not really that shameless? |
I TRULY respect those of you who have responded like gentlemen to my comments,but I firmly stand by them.I own a business,that manufactures products.My pricing is based on my costs.There is NO WAY anyone is going to convince me that the Kharma line is priced on manufacturing costs.Importer cut or not. The pricing of Wilson,and my Avalons are beginning to look cheap,in comparison.Other overseas mfgrs. as well.Suddenly,the Sonus Faber Strads don't look so pricey.Fact is,as I see it, the Kharma importer has a GREAT little set up going for himself.
Ex:Want to update to a Diamond TWEET,20 grand.Now take a look at the B&W Diamond updated product pricing.PLEASE!
Look,openmindedly,at the MIDI GRAND CERAMIQUE.Not overtly heavy as Mikelavigne's previous speaker,so shipping is not as high.Cabinetry is high density fiberboard.Very good drivers,and crossover,with a nice paint job.56k.Let me repeat 56k.Do any of you really think this is a fairly priced product.Come on Mike,I,ve seen pics of your room,and know you love Kharma,but lets get real.Even you admitted you lost bass,when you redesigned the new room.You like rock oriented music,as I believe I have read,so why go from a SUPERB speaker,like you had(exquisite REF)to a smaller internal chambered cabinet,with one more bass driver?You are still NOT going to drive your,superb,room unless you add the Kharma sub(or other subs,but you will definitely stay with Kharma,in this area,from my impressions of your product tastes).I hope you are only reviewing the Midi Ex,and will not replace your Ex Ref,with them.After all is said and done,why not add a stereo pair of Kharma subs to the Ex Ref.I realize the Midi Ex is the speaker,here,but,used the Grand Ceramique as an example,for pricing sanity.
I know my comments may seem extreme,and I'm sorry,but in the case of you mr Lavigne,a Genisis 200 would blow away any Kharma you care to rationalize,in a FAB room,as you have.
I too,had a room built for my system.I did not have the capital on hand to go extreme,so I called Avalon,and asked for the ideal size to drive my speakers.I still had to add a REL STENTOR sub.For acoustics,I had my large record collection built into mirrored sidewalls,for diffraction,with general room treatments added as time went on.I am FINALLY truly happy,but being so enamored with this hobby,I admit to getting a bit too passionate about aspects of it,that bring it down a bit.Not the hobbyists,but too many underhanded industry types.Why should so many of us be such easy prey.Oh,yeah.Because we can!! |
Sirspeedy; if you look at the price issue of any Euro product......it has taken a hit in the last few years......the Kharma's more than some. i am not going to judge the current importer.....he can either make the case for value or not. i would only say that Kharma's still do most things better that are important to me than most competing speakers at ANY price point. Charles von Oostrom is an artist at designing speakers and IF you love what he does then you may want his speakers. i would also say that Kharma's have as much refinement in their speakers from the bottom to the top of their price range as any other.
i would agree that Kharma is not the best bang for your buck speaker......if that is most important.
i currently do not own Kharmas.....the Midi's are loaners while my Von Schweikert's are being built. details of my speaker journey are on my system thread if you are interested. my Kharma Exquisite 1D's, the Midi Exquisite's, and the VR9's are three different speakers which are all easily justifiable in my mind.......and i could live with and love any of them.
as you can see; i have no ulterior motive to promote Kharma. i just happen to really enjoy them and their way of playing music. but they are not the answer to everyone's taste, or everyone's priorities, or all rooms.
my previous smaller room would have been 'overwhelmed' by the VR9's......my Exquisite's were quite good there. if i had stayed with a medium sized room i would have never even thought of changing speakers.
i do expect that the VR9 will ultimately get me closer to my musical nirvana than any other speaker that i have heard could......but that is a story for a future day when it is in my room, broken in, and properly set up.
i reserve the right to come to whatever conclusion that presents itself at that time. |
Why didn't Wes compare the Dartzeel amp to his Conrad Johnson Premier 350 solid state amp. |
What about the VR-7? At 20 K less are these really not close to the VR9's? |
Mike,thanks for not getting too hot headed towards my comments.I will tone down my act.I have a friend in NY,who is unmarried,and very wealthy.He goes through megabuck equipment like golfers go through putters.I hope you do not fall into this category.He also,never gets the performance from his stuff that the equipment is capable of,since he really gets off on "The Latest Stuff" and is quick to turn around his purchases.Yes,it is NONE of my business,but,when you post pics of such a fine custom room,it is human nature to analyze what may or may not be best served.
Since I do feel that the Exquisite REF is,not only a fabulous speaker,but a work of art as well,I simply cannot believe anyone dumping them for anythimg else.I suspect you like to have equipment come and go,and it is your own decisions,but you do pass yourself off as an "experienced and capable hobbyist/reviewer"so you become subject to scrutiny.To me your decision to go towards the Von S seems to try to move closer to your Rock Music tastes,and I understand that.I am surprised you didn't want to try adding the subs.
When you posted a review of your "WONDERFUL" room process on Positive Feedback,both I and my friends felt you could never live with the Kharma's,based upon the comments made about you losing bass.We also were surprised,since you seemed to love the Ex Ref,that you didn't build a slightly smaller room to allow those speakers to pressurize it better.
When all is said and done,since I too went through my own set of decisions when driving my own custom room,it is only your business what you do.I appologize,in advance if I seem to question your process and decisions.However if you put it out there,this is what good critical audio discourse can be about.Anyway I wish you the BEST and hope you,and all other "Thinking" hobbyists enjoy your music!! |
Twilo,in response to your amp comparison question,I think you will find your answer at--High End Audio.com |
"We also were surprised,since you seemed to love the Ex Ref,that you didn't build a slightly smaller room to allow those speakers to pressurize it better."
Just so it is clear JTinn's description of how Mike's room interacts with the Kharma Speakers and the bass has nothing to do with the Kharma's ability to produce bass, nor is it remotely correct. Infact if 25hz cannot pressurize the room how can smaller wavelengths pressurize the room? You would think someone with 45 years experience would understand basic room acoustics.
His bass problem currently has to do with his amplification choices and the fact that to make a room the size of Mike's room flat in the bass something has to be done with the lowest frequencies. After seeing the specs on the Dartzeel it is not a good match for the Kharma's for making bass. And the perceived dynamics likely has something to do with the overshoot that creeps up in the square wave as the amplifier is pressed, which explains why JA only measured the square wave at 55 watts. To drive those small Etons effectively more power is needed. |
CS,sorry,but I was referring to Mike's own comments,in the past,no one elses.Also,mine is soley an opinion,and entitled to be wrong,as in my opinion, is yours, in this matter.Unless the 200 page set-up guide that came with my speakers is totally wrong(I doubt it)the room absolutely affects bass,as does an amp.Ever hear of room loading?I don't care what the actual low frequency cuts off at,and am not worried about the actual lowest frequency limit.I have heard some set ups that cut off about 45hz that have "better perceived" bass than the low bass systems that you may enjoy measuring.I'd rather just listen,and get a sense of a full range sound,in itself.What I do is listen to a very wide variety of "Classical and Popular" recordings,that I know to have "convincing" low frequencies.If I get a good sense of balance,then it is "Right".Few systems really are,regardless of the measured lowest frequencies.Try putting away your fancy test equipment and use your ears a bit more,you may be able to save some potential customers some money?
If you feel the need to measure is that important,as opposed to critical listening,usually with a group of other experienced hobbyists,then knock yourself out.But,please don't condescend as to how much listening years I've had.I don't know where you got the number "45 years" from.Did you read THE DA VINCI CODE? |
Cinematic Systems, you forget that Mike also has the Tenor 300 hybrids and I think Mike has had guests bring over amps to audition as well. It's hard to believe that a different amp can help add that much extra bass. Nothing I've read/heard tells me that the Tenors and Dartzeels are chumps in the bass department.
Sirspeedy, I believe the dimensions are arrived at by Rives, perhaps you should take it up with him. Honestly, I too think it makes more sense to buy speakers that fit the room rather than the other way around. Mike had a chance to build the ideal room, making sacrifices to the room just so the rest of his equipment will work better seems rather silly considering the cost of the project. From the little I know about room acoustics, I believe that a smaller dimension would at least be in some ways a compromise. It's a lot easier to change your gear than to change your room.
Like many people here and on AA, I've followed Mike's journey for a little while now. He owned his old speakers and amps for more than 2 years I believe, and other stuff a lot longer. Is that considered a fast turnaround? You're right that considering the size of his investment, I really don't think he's the type to live long with compromises. If the VR9s doesn't do it for him, I don't think he'll stick with it for long. It's not like he needs industry accomodations or whatever, so I really do believe Mike is after better reproduction of his music. |
Howie: Cinematic_Systems is attempting to create controversy and be obnoxious. This is his history. He does not know what he is talking about and is not worth your time and effort. |
Jonathan,
Cinematic_Systems has more experience than probably anyone I have been associated with in the past and is not "just a salesman". There is value and logic in what he states and it helps move people forward in determining where each of us want to be. Most of us we are just in search of the truth and as an engineer myself it is great to understand how things work. Not go by just what ones stated opinion is. |
Cinematic Systems is not trying to stir the pot, he's basically trying to ( reasonably politely ) comment on the design of Mike's room and the selection of gear. The fact that Mike has been dealing with Jtinn as both a dealer and consultant for the selection of gear obviously brings him into the equation. Jtinn's dismissal of Cinematic's comments and observations is directly related to trying to protect his own reputation as he tries to cast aspersions on Cinematic's reputation. Since i have nothing to gain by discrediting either point of view ( i am not a dealer as the two of them are ), here's my take on the situation. As is usual, this is simply my point of view and i try to remain as honest and impartial as i know how.
The size of the room will affect nodes, low frequency extension and spl capacity. Whether or not the speaker can effectively pressurize the room has to do with surface area that it has to offer ( size and excursion capacity of the drivers ) and the "loss ratio" of the room itself as frequency varies. It is possible to have a "rigid" ( non-lossy ) room at higher frequencies, but have it act like a sponge at very low frequencies. This would introduce a non-linear frequency response into what one hears, even though the system itself may be quite "flat" outside of room contributions.
Even though the physical size of the room may support the longer wavelengths that are created at lower frequencies without creating as many nodal related problems, the construction material itself may end up absorbing those low frequencies if they aren't rigidly anchored. The air-borne low frequencies are absorbed and converted into vibration within the construction material itself, which acts as a thermal loss. This reduces both the linearity of the room itself and the spl capacity that the room can sustain at lower frequencies.
If one was running a relatively "linear" system i.e. one that measured relatively flat, it would sound "weak", "thin" or "lacking in extension" in such a room. The end result is that one would need to create a non-linear sound system i.e. bass heavy in order to compensate for the non-linear absorption losses within the room itself. The end result would be a relatively flat presentation in this room, but in any other room, the added bass would be noticeable to one degree or another. That would depend on just how lossy the second room was at low frequencies.
The same things can occur in the mid and treble region with listening areas that are over-damped i.e. the need for a "hotter" sound to compensate for all of the high frequency losses within the room itself.
Obviously, this is a very tricky area and most rooms aren't actually "done" when the initial construction is finished. That's because reality often doesn't follow theory to a "T", so additional work is required in order for form to follow function with a closer relationship. Sean
> |
I'm sorry if I seemed defensive at any point in any thread.Mike,I truly wish you the absolute best.You should do as you please,afterall who am I to judge anyone,as I've gone through the merry-go-round quite a bit in the past,and I've never even been in your room.My intent was more like the kind of advice I'd give my son,in order for him to save some money,on something.I only opened my big mouth because I obviously loved your component choices,and questioned alternatives to allow such fine equip. to stay with you.Best of luck,though you won't need any!!
PS: You showed real class by not commenting,as I was trying to bait you a bit(though in a friendly way).I doubt if I could have risen to that level. |
sirspeedy, as Howie mentioned.....i am not one to change gear willy-nilly. i had owned to Exquisite's for almost 4 years.....and had no particular desire to change until the new room came along and gave me a reason. i've had the same cables for 4 years, the same passive pre for 3 years, and other aspects of my system are pretty stable too. the reason for building the room is that i realized the limitation of gear......after i had tweaked and tweaked over a few years to wring all i could from my gear and previous room.
we agree on the 'art' aspect of the Kharma.....yet.....it's simply not the issue. aesthetics are obviously important to me; but not at the expense of performance. a few years back i switched from the Linn CD-12 to the emmlabs......from beauty to the beast.....but the beast was better. and over the last three years my decision to switch to the emmlabs has proven correct FOR ME. there have only been 4 sets of VR9's made so far and there is limited exposure of the product.....i am not looking to make a popular decision......i want the right product for my situation.
i do have one question; where do you come up with my 'Rock Music Tastes'? my personal viewpoint is about exactly opposite and has been stated numerous times. i would never want what i refer to as 'one-note bass' or 'rock-show bass'. i would take the bass performance of the Exqusisite's in my current room 1000 times before i would want boomy bass energy for the sake of itself. bass performance needs to serve the music.....and never be an end to itself or prominent. my perception of the VR9 is consistent with that viewpoint and if that proves to be untrue when i have them in my room i will go another direction. in fact, the main reason i did not go for a separate subwoofer with the Exquisites was my fear of incoherence and boomyness in the bass.
i asked my designer to design the best room he could; and not the best room for the Exquisites. i knew the Exquisites did not have the deepest bass extention and the most visceral dynamic performance......i didn't know how they would actually work but i wasn't surprised by what happened.
Cinematic Systems; i must disagree with your opinion that different amps might make huge differences in my bass extention. the truth is that the anachoic bass performance of the Exquisites is not too different than what i get in my room. the rear port just can't do enough in my room to support the 40hz to high 20hz range that it will do in most rooms. this is a speaker/room issue, not an SPL issue. it was down over 15 db from 20hz to almost 40hz.....so another amp is NOT the issue. another amp may add a sense of weight or presence, but it won't measure differently......and would come with unacceptable trade-offs. it is POSSIBLE that i am wrong here......but not too likely.
i have had many amps in my previous room (maybe 20 SOTA amps) and i never had one that seemed to significantly effect bass EXTENTION. they might allow better control, better articulation, or a sense of foundation......but they won't make 40hz extention.....22hz extention.
the Tenor 300 monos have lots of bass control and were equal to many high powered amps when i had them in my previous room. these were the amps my new room was measured with. |
thanks sirspeedy for the good wishes. the attention (good and bad) my postings attract is of my own doing. if i don't want the feedback i should just keep to myself. mostly i enjoy the discussions and relationships that result from my choice to share my experiences. many directions i have eventually gone have resulted from advice i initially rejected......i try to stay open-minded to any possibilities.
since this is all just fun for me anyway.....i typically don't get too riled over any comments.....i leave that sentiment for business.
best wishes to you too. |
There are design aspects of the VR 9's that i really like ( sealed cabinets ), but for the money involved, i'm thinking that they could have made some very simple yet sonically important changes to them. The use of Solen caps instead of something a little higher grade, the 80 Hz crossover frequency for the single subwoofer driver, which is mounted on the rear of the cabinet, etc... are all things that i would have done differently. Then again, i'm not a professional speaker engineer, so what do i know. I just hope that Mike is happy with his purchase and that it delivers what he wants within the confines of his own personal listening room. He's tried damn hard to achieve absolutely phenomenal results and he deserves to get just that : )
I do have one question for Mike. That is, if he doesn't mind. I would be curious to see if he's applied any type of loudspeaker placement computer modeling to his installation? If so, how have the actual in-room results compared to the computer based predictions? Have you modeled the VR's to see how they'll work in this specific room? Sean
> |
Mike,
I appreciate the clarification, JTinn stated quite clearly that your room did not suck out or better word (I should have used originally) attenuate the frequencies below 30hz and clearly it does. And based on your demands it should, to offset room gain. So based on JTinns comments on your room, I could not understand why you couldn't get any bass.
I'm trying to understand but I keep getting conflicting reports back and forth and although I believe everyone's experience to be valid I am trying to correlate semantics and such. I can not find anechoic measurements of the Midi exquisites, are they on the web?, because low frequency measurements are hard to do, and the ones I measured had a slight shallow dip from 40 to 25 hertz where there was a bit of a peak at 25hz. But unless I took the speakers outside I can't really trust my bass measurements and seperate the room from the speaker. I'd be real interested in the anechoic measurements since my client will be moving his midi's to a new room. Can he get them from Kharma?
Howie;
If you read the thread carefully you will see a great deal of conflict or contrary information. This why I keep asking.
Sirspeedy,
LOL, hey you are free to guess at it if you like, but my clients don't pay me for perception, they pay me for the real thing. You and your buddies can kid yourself all you like about how well you hear and how its good to just walk away with a memory. I walk away with documentation.
Critical Listening is the easy part, anybody can do it.
Thks Sean and Stenrsr |
Cinematic Systems, critical listening is NOT the easy part. Bill Evans once said "I do not agree that the layman's opinion is less of a valid judgement of music than that of the professional musician. In fact, I would often rely more on the judgement of the sensitive layman than that of a professional, since a professional, because of his constant involvement with the mechanics of music, must fight to preserve the naivete that the layman already possesses."
The better of a musician I have become, the more judgemental I am of musicians and of their music. I try to hear whether the musician does anything to make him/her special while others with no musical background are trying to "feel" whether the musician gives them that special feeling. Music is all about perception. You may hear a good player when others may simply hear a copycat. Putting science to music has always been wrong to me. |
Cinematic Systems, you are confusing my Exquisite Ref 1D's with the Midi Exquisites. i have only throughly measured the big Exquisite Ref 1D's in my new room. these are now sold and i am using a loaner set of Midi Exquisites.
i am 'guessing' on my anachoic comment......but it makes sense that if the 1D's only went to 40hz in the new room that this would closely resemble what they would be anachoically.
in my old room the 1D's were flat to about 30hz and 3db down at about 28hz. you could barely hear them at 25hz. that room pressurized very easily and the 1D's had a real grip. if i plugged the rear ports they only went to around 38-40hz in that room.
one of the previous Kharma importers that is very familiar with the all the versions of the Exquisite Reference told me that they only went down into the 40hz region in any large room.
so my conclusions based on all the evidence is that this is a speaker/room size issue and not a problem with my room or with the speaker per se.......just that speaker in that room.
regarding the Midi Exquisite's that i now have......i have only done a rudimentary measurement with the Rives Test CD2 and my Rat Shack meter (using the test tones equalized for the Rat Shack meter). the Midi seems to be flat to 40hz, down slighly at 31.5hz, and down about 7db at 25hz.
when you compare the Midi's rating by Kharma as down to 22hz and the 1D's rating as down to 25hz this doesn't compute. my conclusion is that the 1D only truely goes to around 30hz in a typical room......which seems consistent with my observations and comments of the previous importer.
all this is not to disparage the 1D, which is a fantastic speaker and wonderful.....but i'm not going to worry about my room......it was the speaker.
another interesting thing was the 'hole' or 'suckout' (-5db at 80hz) that i mentioned in my room article is non-exisitant with the Midi. the Midi is flat at 80hz. |
Howie,
First of all I am not in the music business, I am in the music reproduction business. I design speakers and music playback systems.
I am not applying science to music I am applying science to music reproduction. And because I care a great deal that the artist intentions are preserved I'm not so arrogant to believe that what I think feels right is good enough! A conductor once told me that " the creative process stops when the CD is caste. Your equipment can not make my performance better it cannot interpret the music...if you're lucky you might actually hear what I intended but that's only if the system is good enough and you're educated enough."
Your argument does not apply to me and is simply a way to elevate yourself into the creative process. As if selecting the correct component somehow makes you enlightened and that a "musical" system is some magical beast that only the "enlightened" can appreciate and own. Can we not measure the beast? In your mind no...because it is your fantasy and not a reality. A Unicorn
Some how my methodology seems to offend the "enlightened" because it scrutinizes their decisions and holds them to a standard that they are offended to be measured against. And I'm not implicating anyone in particular, this has just been my experience. And being held to a standard is problem for those who are too intellectually lazy to attempt some personal education to actually grasp the technical strings that helps them tie them to the recorded performance. No trial and error is the methodology of choice for the "enlightened". They engage in alchemy and consult wisemen for guidance and yet they may have been to the promised land yet weren't educated enough to know they were there. And no measurements left behind to help them find their way back if they realized they've gone to far.
Your Bill Evans example only proves my point, critical listening can be done by anyone. Its the easy part. Its easier to have an opinion than it is to be educated on the subject. The subject being music reproduction.
|
Interesting Mike,
Yeah I'm trying to get my ducks in a row, I was definitely turned around about which speaker you were talking about.
The Midi Exquisites should give you some bass extension, I suspect that the effort made to keep your room flat will work against a speaker designed to work in a "normal" room. You have a falloff where a normal room would have gain.
That 80hz suckout probably was minimized due to the 2 woofers per speaker being in different locations. The single woofer on your 1B's would give you a more focused dips about the room.
The Dartzeels won't be a problem on the VSR's for obvious reasons but I suspect they are struggling in your environment, due to the complex impedances of the speaker and the room. In room the Midi Exquisites seem a bit boomy to me. And should give you some sense of extension. But the impedance of the Kharma in the bass could be below three ohms and swing to 70, The Dart doesn't have the current to get on top of that."
Midi's rating by Kharma as down to 22hz and the 1D's rating as down to 25hz this doesn't compute. my conclusion is that the 1D only truely goes to around 30hz in a typical room......"
Depending on the bass loading of the port can rolloff very steeply and bass can disappear very quickly and maybe even sound a bit stunted. The Midi seems to have a true 4th order port which gives a more gradual decay of the bass, infact the port seems tuned very low as to create a shallower bass rollof, which is why there is a slight dip in room from 40 to 25.
Thanks for the response. |
Stenersr: Your personal experience with C_S is not really the point here. I have no doubt that in a personal relationship he might be entirely different. Especially if he is trying to make a sale. If you look at his past posts he has a real history of attacking everything and usually provides nothing positive. Most people are here to share their experiences with equipment. That I respect. When someone denegrades equipment all the time, that is obnoxious and controversial. Some people feel "God like" when they are typing on a keyboard. As a matter of fact, he has been described to me as a complete lunatic who I should not waste my time with by a mutual friend of ours.
You are an engineer and hence measurements are important to you and I completely understand that. Sean and C_S throw measurements around as if those are the only reasons to buy equipment. How many times do we read a review where the measurements were poor but the reviewer loved the product, or the measurements were outstanding and the sound was not to the liking of the reviewer? Bob, would you buy something just because it measured great without ever listening to it? Or, would you buy something that you heard that sounded great without ever reading how the measured?
My basis for responding to C_S was that he was taking pot shots at Hooper and his system. He talked about the Jena Labs cables as if he had them in his system many times, which to my understanding, he did not. He and Sean both make irresponsible comments about "stranded cables". C_S states; "Smearing the leading edge, it's an old cable tactic, perfect for overly bright edgy audiophile systems." Sean states; "Any multi-strand braided cable is going to have some amount of smearing to it".
To imagine that a cable capable of extending from DC out to beyond 30 Mhz could smear frequencies that low in the bandwidth is ludicrous. The cables "measure" brilliantly. There are cables that, through the use of resistors, roll off certain frequencies, but these resistors do not exist in Jena Labs cables. I have never heard Jena Labs cables "smear highs". I have used them with 100's of amplifiers, preamplifiers and source equipment. I have had more brands of cables through here than I care to count and cannot ever recall hearing a cable that showed the "old cable tactic" that C_S accuses Jena Labs of using.
C_S and Sean have never heard Hooper's system, nor do they have an idea of the sound that Hooper has. C_S heard the prototype darTZeel amplifier in a show with equipment he probably did not know and came to a conclusion on the product. It is no better than walking into a room at a show and listening to a system one has never heard and saying, "Wow, those power cords sound great, but the speakers are bad".
Sean makes statements about what the amplifier sounds like, without ever hearing it based on what he read somewhere that said something about "quality of parts used" without actually mentioning what those parts are and what he percieves the "design parameters" to sound like.
Sean also mentions:
"There are design aspects of the VR 9's that i really like ( sealed cabinets ), but for the money involved, i'm thinking that they could have made some very simple yet sonically important changes to them. The use of Solen caps instead of something a little higher grade, the 80 Hz crossover frequency for the single subwoofer driver, which is mounted on the rear of the cabinet, etc... are all things that i would have done differently."
Sean how many speakers have you built? Any critically acclaimed? Who are you to pass judgement on someone like Albert Von Schweikert and his design without ever listening? Have you heard the speaker? Again, you attempt to show everyone how much you know and try to impress them with capacitor name dropping or repeat something you read somewhere. You did this with the darTZeel amplifier, Jena Labs cables and know the Von Schweikert VR9SE's. Solen caps are excellent in the right application. Maybe the best around. In other applications, maybe there are better choices. Cost of parts had absolutley no influence on what was used in the VR9SE's. This was a "no holds barred", "cost no object" design. The fact that there is a Solen cap in the speaker reflects that it was the best capacitor for the use it was intended. There are also other much more expensive caps used in different areas. It only depends on what sounded best.
Attacking me through Mike Lavigne's post and impuning his credibility, shows how desperate you are with your "conspiracy theory".
Sean, if you have any direct experience with any of the equipment mentioned in this thread, share it. That would be productive and worthwhile. But, constantly targeting me and those who have dealt with me is getting tiresome and is highly unproductive. Most of us are adults here. I do not believe anyone voted you "defender of all". Audiogon has moderators to chime in when they feel it necessary. As I stated earlier... get a life! |
Cinematic_systems writes: Some how my methodology seems to offend the "enlightened" Your methodology does not offend. Regards, |
gentlemen,
the twists and turns of this discussion have truly been amazing!
stepping outside the debate, i can truly attest to one obvious conclusion: you all, to a man ,deeply love music! [as do i ]
therfore,do not belittle yourself with accusations,rude remarks, supposed conclusions, etc...
this forum benifits from discussion, but not at the expense of civility! [no matter how cleverly concealed"between the lines "]
as a musician and layman i would just remind you all that your goals are the same; your path on how to get there is indeed your own, and the happiness derived from this will be different for each of you in your on "musical reality"!
i have had the good fortune to correspond with jtinn and mike lavigne and found them both beyond reproach and gentleman at times when they had every reason not to be! as for the others on this ever evolving thread, your points are well taken and provide additional insight as to framing the "gestalt" of this hobby.
that said, let's all take a step back and remember a simpler time in each of our lives when ALL these items mattered less then just the honest pleasure of listening.... |
This is one great thread! One could write one synopsis of all the possitive points and approaches being made to reach our listening goal and one of all the perspectives by which we approach communicating the goal. Obviously, these are the two dynamics of what is being said. There are some great lessons here and hopefully we can accomplish this to move forward. |
is there a filter available so i can read and learn something new on these forums (which i value highly overall) and DUMP
all of the personal stuff in the trash? stereophile and
the abs.sound is hit and miss, mostly miss. so, when i ask someone what they REALLY THINK without introducing any monetary motives, i don't think that's asking too much. i have a system which i like alot, even though it errs on the side of richness instead of accuracy, and i would like to hear something that is significantly better SOUNDWISE. and, i like to upgrade once in a while, but i don't have a box full of $100 bills just sitting around for that purpose. so when someone has a speaker that costs over $30,000 i have to wonder- 1.did he/she get it to move a lot of air or do they have a very large room, OR 2.does the product have a certain finesse that you can't get for $10k-$20k. i have some well-founded doubts about #2. for example, wilson audio says that compared to the $125k alexandria, everything else sounds "BROKEN". indeed! as far as i'm concerned, they simply lack the engineering expertise to build a speaker for $30k or less that offers the (best they know how to make) accuracy and musicality in a normal (15x20 or 12x18) room. and that example goes for any number of companies out there. is $75k really necessary to get all the info off a vinyl record, or can a smart designer do it
for $10k? does a preamp have to come in three boxes to reduce noise, or can you do it in one box with partitions made of special materials? in other words, tell it to me like it is, let me hear it, and then i'll buy it. or at least i'll try to save up for it...! oh, as for the dartzeel amplifier- i'd love to HEAR it one day- but, is it as good as my DK ?!....(no, i don't have the freaking dk)... |
JTinn,
I think think these three ditti's says it all about you and your philosophy.
NUMERO UNO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"How many times do we read a review where the measurements were poor but the reviewer loved the product, or the measurements were outstanding and the sound was not to the liking of the reviewer?
So I'm supposed to believe Rick Gardner who's entire equipment review history is equipment he bought from you?
I'll take the measurements, thank you very much!
Numero Dos; As a matter of fact, he has been described to me as a complete lunatic.
This lunatic fixed his system for free (clearly proof that i'm crazy), how much more equipment and cables would you have sold him before you would have said I think something's wrong with your system? Sometimes the truth is bad news for a client and people who post here.
Numero Tres;
"To imagine that a cable capable of extending from DC out to beyond 30 Mhz could smear frequencies that low in the bandwidth is ludicrous. The cables "measure" brilliantly."
First of all you make an assumption and you'd be wrong and just because they measure well doesn't mean they sound good. How many times has a reviewer said something that measures great sounds not so good? I know what I heard and that's what really matters not some measurement.
Now do you see how stupid that sounds when it comes from my keyboard?
Later. |
French Fries.
no
#1. yes, maybe
#2. yes
#3. unfortunately, yes
#4. no, not necessarily
#5. probably, what's a DK?
have a nice day. |
Whoa Cinematic_Systems, can you even read my post before you start barking? Where did I give you the impression that I was trying to "elevate" myself into the creative process? All I did was quote Bill Evans. I find his comments enlightening but I surely never claim to be enlightened nor do I believe that I am. And you misinterpreted the quote. The quote is meant to tell you that critical listening isn't an easy process because personal biases and emotions can get in the way. Because of this, Bill Evans himself may not have been a better judge of a jazz pianist's performance that either you or I.
For some, the creative process may end when the CD is caste, for others, the creative process end with the last note played or sung by the musicians. Many musicians simply have little control or influence over the music reproduction process. Any instrumental sound that goes through a mic already changes the sound. The sound engineer frequently changes the sound to better reflect for example, what he/she thinks a saxophone should sound like. A conductor is only one authority. Perhaps he rightfully should have full control over interpretation. But like many authors, there are many artists that will never tell you what his original intensions are. They want you to freely interpret his music and become involved.
It's easier to have an opinion than it is to be educated on the subject of music reproduction. But it is also easier to have an opinion on music reproduction or music than to be educated in music.
When Lester Young goes on stage, he doesn't care what chord the song is in. He wants to know the lyrics. He's interpreting the sound, the sound reproduction engineers are interpreting his performance, and the listeners are interpreting Lester Young's performance. Ah but you can have a crappy record, transcribe his solos, and still analyze Lester Young's performance. It's not like any of us who has never heard him live knows what he truely sounds like anyways. |
Cinematic systems,let's just say that my "Buddies" really don't "guess" at anything.They are skilled and experienced hobbyists that have been at this longer than you,or myself,most likely.I believe that they would find your condescending comments humorous,as we are pretty adamant about how sensitive the "average" ear becomes,once you have been at this hobby awhile.
Since we attend many live events,the signature sound of what real music should sound like is obvious.It really is not hard to learn how(assuming you have enough experience,which your customers may not have,if they must be so reliant on your measurements)to listen to and set up a fine "FULL RANGE" system after you have been at it as long as I have.I do make it my business to get out there,and hear different audio systems as well.This is a helpful guage to me.
I don't doubt the importance of measured results,but know that great results can be had with a wide variety of "known" program material,and this is NOT "GUESSING".If you cannot set-up to a high degree with your own ears you really should consider a hearing test.I'm not trying to be rude here,but your comments,to me,clearly seem to be an attempt to bait me.Hey,we're just having a good debate.No animosity intended.
I do believe that when one has the intimate knowledge of living in a home,for a while,they can navigate it in total darkness.When you "know something" you just "know it"!!Experience is a powerful ally!! |
