I had 2 carts retipped- one by Soundsmith and one by VAS and I left it up to them. Both times they recommended replacing the tip only and they both came out great. So IMO, use a top-quality person and take their recommendation. They know what works and they want you to be satisfied when you get it back.
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There should be no concerns using Joseph Long, I have followed it for many years now. I also know a recent build carried out by him on a Kontrapunk C, where new parts are added, has blown the new owner/user of the Cart' away, it is claimed by the individual who informed myself, that it is now preferred in use over a much more expensive Cart'. His Work is going all over the World and here in the UK, the Boron Cantilever with a FGS is a recommendation that can be seen regularly and those that adopt it are very complimentary in their appraisal. I have become a fan boy of Ogura Vital Styli with a Beryllium Cantilever, I have heard this in comparison on same TT>Tonearm as a A/B to a similar Cart' but much more expensive from the same Brand/Family with a FGS added to the Cart' and I am more than happy with the choice I have made. I have also A/B compared my Cart' in the same manner as above to a Cart' from the same Brand, with a Boron Cantilever and Ultra Polished Replicant Styli, and again am very pleased with the choice I made. |
Sending back to Lyra is an expensive option, but you will end up with a Delos. Retipping with Joseph will cost $600-$700, but you will have a different cartridge. I have had more expensive cartridges retipped by VAS and to me it did not make a difference - it was good as the old one. A lot will depend on how much of a purist you are. |
An "upgrade" is nebulous because the cartridge was designed as a complex interplay between a very specific set of parts. A ruby/sapphire rod is a lot heavier than boron; I would avoid that for sure. The exact stylus cut is probably far less impactful than nearly DOUBLING the specific gravity of the cantilever material, and both Gygers are very good. As others pointed out, retipping on the existing boron rod might be a good way to go, but I don’t know if or how that might compromises the mount/bond (which IS important). Lyras usually use a very clean looking interface mount and I doubt that’s what you’ll get unless you do an exchange with Lyra themselves. |
My Lyra Kleos is currently at Soundsmith for the second rebuild. Instead of getting just a nude contact line retip like the first time, this one is getting a boron cantilever w/CL. I am not a puritan and I fully trust Soundsmith. Plus since I now mostly stream I don't care of keeping the Kleos in its original configuration in order to sell it down the road because it's gonna take me well over a decade to get a thousand hours on it. It used to take me less than two years prior to streaming. And who knows if I will still be kicking in 15 years... Can't wait to see what Soundsmith can do with it. |
@baylinor You have stated " I am not a puritan and I fully trust Soundsmith " As said by myself in a previous Post in another Thread about a Cart' Rebuild, ' to have a Trusted Workmanship is a Luxury '. There is nothing to suggest the returned Cart' will not be impressive, the Boron Armature will bring something new to the presentation. Will it be enough the put a 1000hrs of usage on the Cart' in a few years 😎 |
Just a reminder if you are considering retipping. All manufacturers use cantilevers and diamonds from only four manufacturers. Ogura (the major supplier), Namiki (now Orbray), Gyger and Nagaoka. I am not aware that Nagaoka supplies to any retippers directly, so a cartridge with a Nagaoka diamond is unlikely to be able to be retipped by a retipper unless the retipper purchase a complete stylus unit for a Nagaoka cartridge and repurposes it, say for an Ortofon moving coil (like the Quintet Black). Although as of this comment, I’m not sure if there is an off the shelf Nagaoka stylus that is boron/Super Shibata. Before one concludes that diamond and cantilever choices are made solely in terms of engineering merit, one should also consider the economics. Assuming the quality of diamond is all the same, as well as polishing, etc., Ogura is the least expensive, then Namiki (Orbray) and then Gyger. Why do so many high end cartridges feature an Ogura 3/30 micron PA diamond? I submit that it’s because it’s the least expensive line contact diamond on the market, period. Doesn’t make it the worst because there is no such thing as the worst. Every one of these manufacturers produce nothing but superior quality diamonds. Ogura diamonds are the only ones that incorporate a mechanical joint in the construction as well. The other two manufacturers are glued on. While the joint is a welcome quality feature, I’ve considered that the only real benefit to such a strong joint, however is that in reality retipping costs often are higher because Ogura cantilevers usually end up breaking while Gyger and Namiki simply break the diamond loose. A retipper who can replace just the diamond should charge less just to replace the diamond. As for diamond selection, a good retipper should keep all brands in stock and available. I love Ogura diamonds, but I don’t really think that a cartridge manufacturer is choosing a stock diamond from a diamond manufacturer’s standard catalog of options based on what sounds best or even works best. An Ogura 3/30 is the shortest line contact you can actually call a line contact. Air Tight, who installs it on their $15,000 Opus 1, calls it a “semi-line contact.” There is more to the equation of choosing a diamond than manufacturer, or type. Mass is also an important consideration in preserving the original sound, if one wishes. In that case, I simply always recommend to stick with the original manufacturer’s choice. Many retippers don’t carry a wide selection of diamonds, so if you want to preserve original sound as much as possible, go with the original diamond or one of similar mass. The lower the mass, the lighter and more delicate the sound, generally speaking. Ogura diamonds are not, generally as found in the wild, the lowest mass diamonds available. But they are available in many sizes. Their stock sizes offer a nice balance between bass and treble, which is also why they are so popular with manufacturers. Much of high end Denon sound comes down to their use of extremely tiny special order Ogura diamonds. These are special products that aren’t exactly available to retippers, but other very low mass diamonds work just as well, such as the Micro Ridge being only 0.08 x 0.08 mm square. I can order Ogura as small as 0.1 x 0.1mm square—same as the Namiki (Orbray) Shibata III and elliptical. I, personally, recommend Gyger options often in my work because they are extremely high quality and offer the longest contact edges in the industry at 100 microns for the FG 2 and 120 microns for the FG S. These are expensive diamonds compared to the competition, which is probably why they are seen less often on brand new cartridges. This is pure speculation on my part. The only major manufacturers that I know of that uses them are Goldring and Ortofon. But Ortofon uses some odd sizes that aren’t available to retippers. According to Gyger, Gyger only makes the two diamonds that are available to me with the contact edge lengths noted. Yet Ortofon has Gyger diamonds with contact edge lengths of 70, 80 and 100. Under the microscope, the first two look the same as the Gyger 2 and the last one looks like the Gyger S, so the closest I can get to original would technically constitute an improvement. The other manufacturer, of course, is van den Hul and perhaps, parenthetically, Expert Stylus. These are made to the same formula as the Gyger diamonds under a shared patent for vDH and a license agreement with vDH respectively. I have seen lower mass vDH diamonds on legacy cartridges (old Sumiko MC like the Talisman series) which appeared to be Gyger 2 formulas but on diamond blocks as small or close to as small as a Micro Ridge. This would be a very desirable diamond. I have not seen these lower mass vDH on anything recently and so something like that, I would replace with most likely a Micro Ridge. A client can also choose whatever diamond they like. There are other considerations to cover. The Micro Ridge is a great diamond, but I don’t really think it’s for everyone. Considering that it first really appeared on light tracking, high compliance cartridges, the suspensions of which could absorb much of the shock of a mishandled and dropped cartridge, I haven’t decided for myself whether I really think it truly belongs on a relatively low compliance moving coil cartridge with a stiff cantilever that cannot retract with little force into a protective tunnel like Shure or Stanton or Pickering (I know the Micro Ridge never was OEM to Stanton or Pickering, but for argument’s sake. If I have a client who has broken a cantilever or knocked a Micro Ridge off the cantilever because of a drop, I ask them if they might like to try a Gyger 2 as it is, in my opinion, a bit safer in terms of causing damage to grooves in the event of mishandling. I have never experienced a Gyger gouging up a groove like I have with a Micro Ridge, and I think that’s a factor that should be considered when retipping, on a case by case basis.
IOW, there are ways to improve a cartridge for the specific needs of a user that don’t hurt the performance of a cartridge. Deviating from an original cartridge’s diamond and cantilever formula can bring benefits and improved listener experience.
If you retip it and you don’t like it, (hasn’t really happened, but for argument’s sake), I am open to making changes. I haven’t ever really had someone come back to me and say, “Wow, this doesn’t sound at all like something I want anymore.” Quite the opposite, in fact. Why? Because there really aren’t any bad diamonds. They will all sound good. The next question is where and when a diamond will sound good and for how long. This inquiry also feeds into choosing, say, an elliptical or a line contact. What if you want an old school nude .2 x .7 elliptical? Does your retipper offer that option? What about an original Shure hyperelliptical? What about a Grado “Grado Type?” Nude 1 mil? But I could go on and on, so I’m just going to stop here. All I wanted to do was brush on some considerations to think about when choosing a retipping strategy. I hope this has been helpful. |
Dear @jorgestevesilva : Tes, to retip a cartridge Joseph Long is the best option but Lyra directly . Manufacturer always is the best first option for several reasons but to retip JL and yes I know him and here you can talk with him:860 338 0153.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
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Third Party Cartridge Services that Retip, Refurbish, Bespoke Rebuild, as outlined by @needlestein, can offer to a Customer an increase in options on how the Cartridge being offered for a work to be undertaken, can be returned as a functioning design. As suggested in the past, a Manufacturer in many cases, is most likely to restrict their work to using equivalent parts when receiving a Cart' that needs new parts to achieve the Refurb. Parts used at the time of Manufacture are potentially no longer stock items. With the above being a most likely outcome, I can't see any reason not to speak with a Third Party Service and draw on their experience of available materials and works undertaken on Cart's to discover if a Cart' can be offered that seemingly will be an attractive prospect to ones own preferences. I was assured an Ogura Styli / Beryllium Armature (not used on any of the Cart' Brands Products) along with an upgraded internal Damper, etc, (used by the Cart' Brand) would be a worthwhile combination to get the Sound I was describing from a Cart' I was offering as a Donor Model. I have never shown a disappointment, I have only been thoroughly impressed with the Technicians work and this rebuild. I often wonder if it can be maintained when the time comes. |
@needlestein This is great information, thank you. For retipping I’ve used both Andy Kim and Soundsmith and have been pleased with both, the former having a quicker TAT. TBH, I’ve never really thought about how and where they source their cantilevers and diamonds. I am also okay with having a "Frankenstein" non original cart as long as it sounds great and tracks well, which has been the case every time with a retip or "recantilever". I retipped my previous Delos with Soundsmith using their TOTL retip option, and the Delos was returned to me and worked flawlessly. Edit: Speaking of Gyger, I am currently using a Stanton 980 LZS with a stylus retipped with Gyger S. Sounds absolutely fantastic and tracks like a beast! |
@rauliruegas Yes! In fact, it was @needlestein Jesph Long that retipped this Stanton stylus (sent by the previous owner I believe). Didn't put 2 and 2 totgether. Thanks Joseph, this D98 Gyger retipped stylus is perfect for this Stanton 980. I also have the original D98 Stereohedron and I swear the Gyger is better at the inner grooves for treble extension and utter lack of any IGD traces. |
Dear @gakerty : He has several retip options that other retipers do not handle in their catalogue list. Even he can recoil that's a task that almost the other retipers just don't do it. He is a trusty and friendly gentleman. Recomended.
R. |
As there is not a Thread dedicated to listing Cart' Refurb - Rebuild Services, I am adding to this thread a Service available in Europe that offer a FGS retip and other Styli as well. It seemingly makes sense that a Thread is produced that consolidates all the Contacts for Services that are to be found referred to in a multiple of Threads on this forum.
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