Teajay,
Right on, no fussin and fightin, a fun, contributing, educational thread, way to go man.
Right on, no fussin and fightin, a fun, contributing, educational thread, way to go man.
Reference DACS: An overall perspective
There has been many threads the last few months regarding the sonic signature of some of the highest regarded reference DACS (Dcs,Meitner,Ensemble,Audio Note,Zanden,Reimyo,Accustic Arts) here on the GON. I have been very fortunate to audtion many of these wonderful pieces in my home or friend's systems. I wanted to share, in a systematic way, my impressions/opinions with you GON members for a two reasons: 1)That my experiences might be helpful to fellow members interested in audtioning these DACS. 2)Starting an interesting discussion regarding the different "sonic flavors" of these reference digital front ends. I totally agree with the statement, "if you have not heard it you don't have an opinion". Therefore, I have no comments regarding DACS from Weiss,Goldmund,Audio Aero and Burmester because I have never had the pleasure of audtioning them. I would love to hear from members who have and share their experiences with us. My overall impression is that these DACS(Dcs,Meitner,Ensemble,Audio Note,Zanden,Reimyo,Accustic Arts) can be grouped into two molar categories regarding their overall sonic signature. By the way, all of them can throw a large/deep soundstage with excellent layering in the acoustic space with "air" around individual players on that stage. However, than they start to part company into two major categories. Category #1) These DACS "flavors" revolve around pristine clarity, fine sharp details,speed,very extended top/bottom frequencies,and great PRAT. These DACS never sound "etched" or "in your face" but are more "upfront" then "layed back" in their presentation. The DACS, to my ear's, that go into this bracket are Dcs,Ensemble,Meitner. My personnal favorite in this group is the Ensemble, which I owned for two years. These DACS remind me of the sonic signature of speakers such as Wilson,Thiel,Dynaudio, Focal/JM Labs. Category #2) These DACS "flavors" revolve around a "musical/organic" sense, natural timbres,and an easy flowing liquidity. Their "less forward" presentation my give the impression of less detail, but I think in this case its an illusion fostered by their more relaxed/organic manner. The DACS, to my ear's, that go into this bracket are Audio Note,Zanden,Reimyo,Accustic Arts. I did find that the tube DACS did not have the top/bottom frequency extenstion and PRAT of the SS DACS in this bracket. For me, the Accustic Arts DAC1-MK3 gave me the best of both categories, therefore it is now the resident DAC in my system. These DACS remind me of the sonic signature of speakers such as Magnepan,Von Schweikert,Sonus Faber. Well, it's all just my opinion regarding these digital pieces, but I hope this post was at least informative/somewhat interesting and would lend itself to other GON members sharing their impressions, not about what DAC is the "BEST" in the world, but your personnal taste and synergy with your system.
797 responses Add your response
Teajay, This is excellent thread and it contain a lot of very usefull info about various DAC sound. I agree from the start with your #1 and #2 flavor groups and it seems to me like a good idea. But, some recent auditions of new gear showed me that some of DACs(or combos) are around #1.5 or even #1.8 sound. What does that mean? Simly they have all #1 sound quality but, add natural presentation without edge or britt in sound as well. Little bit of warmth also! I also find out that system synergy(here I go again!) is the key word! BTW, I am in the process of changing most of the gear in my system No.2... If few months more info. Current favs: Esoteric D-01/P-01/G-0s(#1 champ,in some systems too clinical) Metronome C-2A Sig/Kallista Reference(#1.8 sound, best tube dac that I ever audition, amazing combo) Orpheus Lab Heritage/Zero D(#1.1 sound, still break-in period but, already something special...) Accustic Arts DAC-1Mk4/Drive1Mk2(#1.3 sound, best value for the money but, still not in the class of three combos mentioned above) Audio Research Reference CD7(#1.9 sound, best tube cd player on the market IMHO) Krell Evolution 505(#1.3 sound, a must in all Krell CAST system, betters all player below $10K IMHO) More info in few week time... |
Music... Coltrane, Monk, M.Davis-usual Jazz. Mozart, Beethoven and Mahler-classic. Pink Floyd, RHCP-rock. Particia Barber, Diana Krall and Sara K.-female jazz. Sound-very big and powerfull sound. Best bass from tube dac so far, creamy midrange and very open but, not edgy highs. Sampling rate is depending more on recording. On RR recordings highest sample rate is the best but, on some non-audiophile recordings it was not. In-review in few weeks... |
Branimir, as always good to hear from you and thanks for sharing your more recent ranking of digital front ends. I will take it as a compliment that you ranked the Accustic Art combo number four, considering that it costs almost $15000.00 less then the three others on your list! Now, here's my questions for you: 1) Do the higher ranked combos offer something that the Accustic Arts Combo qualitatively does not offer in it's overall sonic signmature? 2) Does the Accustic Arts combo offer the same sonic attributes as the better combos on your list, but just does not do them as well as the top ranked combos on your list? 3) If you would put in a precent rating the amount of "musicality" that the Accustic Arts offers compared to the other digital front ends. I will thank you in advance, it's always enjoyable for me to see what your informed opinions are regarding some of the highest regarded gear on the market today. |
Teajay, I will try to answer your questions: 1)Yes. Esoteric combo offer level of detail that is simply not present on Accustic Arts combo. Metronome is sounding bigger, fuller and excell on Jazz music. Orpheus Labs is better in bass depth and definition, also on overall soundstage size. In short all three top combos are class above Accustic Arts combo. 2)Yes again. Its sonic signature is like a small unity between Esoteric and Metronome. Orpheus Lab is different sounding but, it may be actually winner here for 90% of audiophiles... 3)Musicality... IMHO, this is truly subjective thing but, I will try to gave you % factor. For this thing I will use "Soultrane" from J.Coltrane: 100% Orpheus Lab 99% Metronome 99% Accustic Arts 98% Esoteric You see, with Jazz standard this is the ranking but, with different music different results! It will also depend very much on rest of the system. Im my experience speakers are the most important part of any high-end system. My new speakers(they are on the same level as Krell LAT-1000s!) are simply awsome and they are drawing me into the music more then any speaker before. I also found(for me!) perfect amps and preamps. Digital front end is the key element of my current search. Last comment about Accustic Arts combo. IMHO it is current class leader for digital gear up to $16K. Better sound is possible, but for a lot more money... BTW, two new speakers that I currently audition besides my Krell LAT-1000s are also USA made stuff. More on them soon, but just a little hint-they are both leaders, first one in true world class, second in $15K class. |
Branimir, very nice summary. I am reading in to your description of Metronome sound being bigger and fuller as being closer to lifelike bigness of sound as it is apparent in live jazz band. It is curious that you single out this description to Metronome sound and not others. Is Esoteric, AA and Orpheus have same big 'density' sound as compared to Metronome? I personally value bigness and fuller sound since it move a lot of air and hence approaches life-like sound. Also I will be curious to know if you have auditioned and compared these DACs sound to a well set up analog front end. Or if you have your own analog set up and compared to the best of the digital sound. Not to necessarily compare which one is better but the key differences that stands out. This is not a anlog v/s digital question or trying to hijack Teajay's excellent thread but to get a feel for what the best in digiatl has to offer in comaprision to best in analog. I hope Teajay does not mind this comparision. |
Nilthepill, Metronome combo is always sounding big and full, with all kinds of music. This feature is not always a welcome thing, with rock music for example(some rock recordings are pump up anyway!). IMHO this Metronome's sonic signature is also its biggest problem because not all recording are welcoming such a presentation. Esoteric, Orpheus and AA are little bit more neutral IMHO overall. More on Orpheus Labs Heritage dac is here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/orpheus/heritage.html It is long and pretty messy review, but I urge you to read it anyway. Metronome is maybe most "musicall" of all this combos, specially with Jazz and Classical music. Overall neutral champs it is not... Analogue front end... I have one ten years ago(SME30), but since I gave it up I do not plane to return! BTW, my best friend owns very good analogue front end(Brinkmann) and in his opinion some of digital gear that he audition in my house betters his Brinkmann by some margin. In all honesty I must say that the rest of his system is not in the same league as my systems... |
Hi Guys, I've been traveling this weekend, found this thread and wanted to make a few comments of the Metronome Kalista specifically and also the C2A DAC. Most, if not all reviews, have described the Kalista of being quite accurate in tonality, resolution, dynamics and in projecting what soundstage is on the disk. If it is a large band, then the sound is large. If it's a small acoustic performance, a similar image is projected. Obviously, different speakers can project different sized images. In a related vein, the Met Kalista/C2A has been compared to reference level turntables...it's that great! This has been my experinence with the Kalista and also with the other Metronome odels since they all use a similat modified CDM12Pro2 transport. And the difference between the Kalista and others designs is significant. btw, watch for a new review this week of the "entry" Metronome CD3-Signature in Tone Audio. Thanks, guys! Jim Ricketts/tmh audio jim@tmhaudio.com |
Jim, ARC Reference CD7 is wonderfull player. It is only short in overall detail level and soundstage size comparing to three reference combos from Esoteric, Metronome and Orpheus Lab. Differences, specially is soundstage size are not that dramatic, but it is not as wide as Metronomes for example or its depth is not hall like as Orpheus Lab. For tube cd player CD7 has excellent bass power and definition and is also pretty big sounding. As a matter of fact it is IMHO overall value champ. Just a warning-it is very warm running player. Placement on top shelf of rack is a MUST! Also do not use it with too warm sounding cables-you will get too much of "warmth". |
Great thread. nice to see some usefull exchanges without things falling apart. I would love input from this group on a decision I have been considering. I have owned a heavily modified Resolution Audio Quantum dac for some time now. Imagine the GNSC mods to an Opus but on steriods. I have really never heard a DAC with the old UltraAnalog dac set that I did not like to be honest. I have not at all cared for the recent generation of upsampling DACS and digital sources that I have heard. The only dacs that have had me curious are the AN Dacs. I have an opportunity here on Agon for the 3.1 that is listed and am tempted. I worry though that as has been written, I will give up a significant amount of extension and low end authority. I would not be surprised if my Quantum has some of the best macrodymanics and scale possible at any price it is that good. The only thing it lacks, and this is nitpicking, is that last bit of body in the midband, particularly on stringed instruments, less on vocals. Overall this dac is on the warm side of neutral but with an incredibly expansive soundstage and all the other good stuff. I recently borrowed a CD7 and felt I had the same overall tonal balance but with better extension and much better slam, if that lends any perspective. I've got Willie Nelson playing right now with all his great tone, and really nothing is missing. any thoughts? |
Petland, I believe what you are concerned with, losing extension on the top and bottom, to get maybe a little more "warmth/liquidity" in the midrange, would be the end result with the Audio Note 3.1 DAC. When I auditioned an Audio Note 3.1 in my system I found it to have a very musical midrange, almost like a SET tube amp, but lacked detail,dynamics, and extension, therefore it was not my sonic cup of tea. If you tried the AR CD7 and felt that your present DAC had the same tonal balance, but offered better dynamics and extension, I think you would not be enamored by the AN 3.1, which might offer a touch more of what you like in the midrange, but at the loss of the other sonic virtues of your present digital front end. |
Thanks for your response Teajay. Just a comment on low end "extension". It has been my experience that among other things one of the easiest ways I can identify great analogue from great digital is not in the deep bass but in the low / midbass. this is where I have found almost all digital to just be "off" most of the time. Funny thing is that the best digital is usually quite a bit more extended but almost in an unnatural way. Throw an old cassette player into your system for an experiement. The first thing you will notice is a foundation and pace in the midbass that just sounds right and propels the music. To me it is the easiest thing to identify when hearing master tape for example. I do not think I have truly ever heard this from digital, ever. And I have heard a lot (not trying to bark up another tree, just commenting on the "extension" I may lose if I switch Dacs) sometimes you learn the same lessons more than once about what you sonically prefer. It seems like an easy thing to pin down but that is not always true. One of the interesting things for me in the past six months is that I have been searching for my first real full range speaker which by default bumps me into a three way. I have demoed some of the most highly regarded and have not wanted one of them. The take home message for me personally is that I love the coherence, particularly in the midband, of a great two way and am willing to live with the limitations that come with that design. This applies indirectly to my intial post as in some ways the best "type 1" dacs are striving to include it all that digital can muster, at full scale, often at the slight expense of the best possible in the midband depending on someones taste. I know for certain the 3.1 will have tradeoffs and I'll bet I'm pretty accurate as to where they will be. What I am not sure of is whether I will care or not. I may just have to give it try. |
How would mating a Accustic Arts Dac 1 Mk4 with a ML 31.5 transport work out? Is this a good combo? The ML reclocks the bits to eliminate jitter as does the Accustic Arts Drive 2 according to the descriptions. Would each component lose some performance because they are met to team up with each mfg.'s complimentary component? |
Sabertouch, at one time I had the ML-31.5 as my reference transport, but it was replaced by an Ensemble reference because it offered better performance in my system. However, the ML-31.5 is still a great transport and very competitive with other transports on the market today. My hunch is that the ML-31.5 with the Accustic Art DAC-1 MK4, will sound very good indeed. However, in my system the Accustic Arts DAC-1 MK4 with the new Accustic Arts Drive 1-MK2 offered a higher level of refinement/synergy then with my Ensemble transport. I believe Accustic Arts mainly came out with the Drive-1 MK2 in order to get the ultimate performance out of their new reference DAC. It will be interesting to see what Exlibris experience will be in his system. |
New digital gear: Accuphase DC-801 DAC Accuphase DP-800 SACD/CD transport Accuphase DP-500 CD player Esoteric X-01 D2 SACD/CD player(it seems to use AD1955) and Wadia 971(rumor reference SACD/CD transport as companion for 921/931) New version of X-01 is a big suprise and will make a lot of X-01/X-01LTD owners not too happy... |
Garyk, I did receive it and it is wonderful. It did everything for the Zanden that it did for the Attraction DAC. Everything sounds fuller, deeper, and more spacious. It isn't a matter of flavour, it just sounds more right and more real. It is my belief that getting the timing right in the digital domain (reducing jitter) will lead always lead to these attributes. I believe that the thinness and lack of bottom end in many digital products is largely the result of jitter. A couple of very critical listeners who are vinyl aficionados have heard my system through its various progressions and right now they really like what they hear. Teajay, I fully agree with your hunch. |
Exlibris and Teajay, thanks for your replies. I will be anxiously awaiting the results of your comparison, Exlibris. I am confident the move from my ML 360S to a Mark IV will be signicant. I am less so from a move from my 31.5 to the Drive 2 even though component synergy is an issue in the equation. |
Al, New Esoteric X-01 D2 could be revolutionary player! Big difference is that it is using DUAL(!!) DACs for PCM and DSD. PCM1704 is used for CD playback and AD1955 is used for DSD(both in balaced configuration). But, you can also upsample PCM to DSD or DSD to PCM as well. There are 3 types of DSD modes also. New X-01 D2 is using further updated VRDS-NEO transport and is pretty much very complex machine. Release in Japan in December, USA Januar 2007 and EU March 2007. BTW, also new is EMMLabs CDSA CD/SACD player without preamp function. |
I did a google search for Esoteric X01 D2 and found the following info (translated from japenese) Price is 1,417,500 Yen = $ 12,000 4th generation VRDS NEO using ceramic ball bearings Dual DACs using PCM 1704 and AD 1955. 3 "mode" types : DSD mode = SACD Multiple bit mode = PCM using 1704's 1 bit mode PCM using AD 1955's Also "reference" mode. Automatically changes mode "depending on source" Better channel seperation Higher signal to noise ratio Incorporates Xo1 ltd features ( wire,signal path upgrades,next gen's etc.) Sorry if some of this doesn't make sense but it gets a little murky in the translation. - Jim |
Al, regarding price my guess is $15K in USA. Since new X-01 D2 is really most exciting new digital player I am more then interested to audition it ASAP. Also, my guess is that Esoteric will release updated version of flagship D-01/P-01(D-01 D2/P-01 D2???) pretty soon as well with further in-depth involvement with dual DACs(PCM1704/AD1955)... BTW, price for new EMMLabs CDSA is $10K in USA. |
Esoterix X01 D2 seems very very interesting, Branimir I guess you'll be one of the first who will hear it, so you know you have to let us know. Btw this weekend I've heard the new Horning Sati digital set: top loading transport, tube dac with 2 6sn7 and tube psu total 3 pieces, minimal design. The system was LAmm 1.2 and Verity Parsifal Ovation. THis new digital gear seems intersting and this maybe the first piece auditioned. I'll keep listening this again to be sure of sonic signature |
Branimir, Have you got any updated views on the Krell Evolution 505 yet? I'm probably just about to buy one, and I've auditioned it for just over a week and I'm very happy with the detail/soundstage/treble/bass/sweetness blend, but my dealer doesn't stock much else in the price range, and SACD is (unfortunately) important to me due to my investment in the format! I'm being forced into an upgrade as my old Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista SACD player broke down, and all that MF could offer was a cobbled together repair, from spare bits, and with no warranty! The cheek of that company means I'll never deal with them again. Thankfully my dealer has given me a great deal on the broken TriVista which I need to make the most of. I'm happy with the sound of the 505 after a week, but I guess I'm just after some assurance that I'm making a decent move. The rest of the system is old Krell 250a & 250p pre/power, Sounus Faber Elector Amator II speakers, and Transparent cable & power condition. Any thoughts from anyone out there would be very helpful. Great thread! Daren |
I have just read another, about the third, superlative review regarding the non-upsampling Audiomat Maestro DAC that is made in France. I know that Exlibris likes the sonics of non-upsampling DACS, so I was wondering if he or Branimir, who lives across the big pond, have ever heard this DAC and what their opinion is of its sonics. I also know that the importer for the US is located in Canada, were Exlibris lives. |
I just want to share my experiences regarding auditioning the Accuphase DP-78 CDP. Years ago I had the reference Accuphase digital front end gear that was quite good in its time era, but had not listened to an Accuphase piece in many years. This piece had gotten very good reviews and so I was interested how it would compare with my own reference the Accustic Arts DAC1-MK2/DAC1-MK4 and many other digital front ends I have had the pleasure to listen to. The system that I listened to the Accuphase DP-78 was a fine system, which had the following gear, Audio Research Ref 3, Plinius amp, Kubala-Sosna wires and Sonus Faber speakers. The other digital piece used in the audition was the Esoteric X-01 Limited, which I have heard before and have great respect for its overall sonic performance. Well, I guess the Accuphase DP-78 is not my "sonic cup of tea", at best it had a nice euphonic perspective, but lacked details, had no slam, lacked extension both on the top and bottom. The Esoteric X-01 made the whole system come alive, but was still very musical/natural with details, slam, extension. I could see if someone's system was overly bright/forward or if they were used to a hot/harsh digital sound that the DP-78 would be a blessing, however pleasing as we know does not equal accurate and musical. So, I would not give this piece a "thumbs up" as I would to many other digital pieces discussed on this thread. |
Teajay, your impressions of DP-78 match exactly my own on the older DP-77. Definitely sweet. . . but very euphonic. While I have commented elsewhere that the faithful reproduction of live music is a pipe dream at best, and that the best gear aims much more at hyperrealism than at pure realism, nevertheless, music reproduction attempts to capture or glorify the essence or 'soul' of a performance or of an instrument. Conversely, I found the sound of the Accuphase DP-77 to be a delightful yet arbitrary fantasy over what instruments do for living, almost slightly cartoonish in its glossy appearance. |
Hello, to everybody who still follows and participates on this thread. I was wondering if anybody had had the chance to audition yet either the brand new Meitner EMM Labs single box player or the other just released EAR Acute player which is the offspring of the talented designer Tim de Paravicini. Both, have been given superlative reviews and the claims are that they offer reference level performance for far less money then DAC/transport front ends. As always, I trust the ear's of my fellow GON members more then reviewers, on such matters, so if anybody has really listened to either piece it would be great to hear from you. |
First about Krell Evolution 505... It is IMHO one of the best players on the market in this price class. In all Krell CAST connected system it betters even more expensive combo like Weiss in most areas(but, this is my subjective opinion!). Teajay, I did not audition Audiomat gear, but I recently had a chance to audition Zanden combo and did not like it at all! To euphonic and old fashioned for my taste. Midrange is good, but its presentation is not my cup of tea. EAR Acute is interesting machine! But it is not in the same league as ARC REF CD7 or Krell Evolution 505. And EAR build quality is not very best. For people that are seeking good tube cd player EAR could be a nice choice. Only one thing-home audition here is a must! |
Exlibris, were you ever able to demo the Accustic Arts DAC with your 31.5 as you posted you were going to do in Oct?. If not, are you planning to add the DAC to your system sometime in the future. I listen to mostly vinly myself, but still want the best in CD reproduction. Do not want to replace the 31.5 if it will give me almost as good sound with the AA dac as the AA transport. A distant friend of mine who is a big vinyl guy bought the new AA dac 3 mths ago and was bowled over by it's sound. He's waiting for the AA transport at present. |
Sabertouch, I was going to demo the Accustic Arts DAC with my 31.5 because someone in the industry here in Canada wanted to hear the DAC. My search for a DAC ended with the Zanden. I was going to demo the Accustic Arts transport with my Zanden to see if it sounded better than my 31.5. I can understand why your vinyl-loving friend would like the AA DAC. I listened to one of their older DACs and it has some of the softness, fullness, and warmth of vinyl. Who knows, maybe the demos will still take place. If they do I will be sure to post. |
Henryhk, I certainly did consider the Zanden transport. I just can't justify the cost for this piece. To be honest, if I could find all my favourite music on LP I would sell my digital frond end and my CD collection. I haven't listed to a CD in over a month. Unfortunately, only about half of the albums I want will ever be available on vinyl so I will have to keep my digital equipment. Once I get my vinyl playback to the level I want I will probably start looking at making my digital better and you are right, the way to do this is to get the Zanden transport. I don't want this to devolve into a digital vs. analog debate but I do want to make one point. One of my reservations about going into vinyl was the fact that many of the albums that I buy are recorded digitally. Why on earth would I want to playback a digital recording on vinyl rather than CD? I have no idea why it is but I can tell you that the digital recordings that I own sound much better on vinyl than they do on CD. A case in point is Iron and Wine's "Endless Numbered Days." The realism, soul, and humanity on the vinyl are so much better than the CD. The difference is not subtle. It is so profound that I can almost say that until you hear the vinyl, you really haven't 'heard' this record. Another case in point is Beck's "Sea Change," though I can't state for certain that this one was recorded digitally. I've owned "Sea Change" on SACD (played through EMM Labs CDSD and DCC2) on CD (played through EMM Labs, then Altmann, then Zanden) and now on vinyl. Again, listening to the vinyl is like hearing the album for the first time. |
Fair enough. Though I only listed to digital, a well set up state of the art LP system does sound "better" to my ears, I acknowledge. The thing for me that leads to digital is primarily driven by functionality (can downlaod to PC for IPOD or wireless distribution to other rooms), storage (I have about 3000 CDs....if they were LPs..!)...etc. So I go for the best digital to my personal preferences which has been Meitner in my limited experience. I think there are quite a few like me in this regard. These reasons are also why I am quite curious with Nova Physics Memory player which is getting some hype...have no idea and probably will not available here where I live to audition for at least a year. A shame. |
Esoteric X-01 D2 now has a web page: http://www.teac.co.jp/av/esoteric/x01_ux1/x01d2.html The list price in Japan is Yen 1,400,000. Upgrades of X-01 & X-01 Limited to X-01 D2 are also available in Japan: http://www.teac.co.jp/av/info/v_up.html According to the Audiotechnique magazine in Hong Kong, Esoteric has already sent them a X-01 D2 for review. The review will be published in their Jan issue. |
