Question on Denon DL-103 retipping options and preferences

Better value is MM or MI with user replaceable stylus, mid or high compliance, advanced stylus profile and the sound like a master tape with any genre of music including rock. Some nice MM cost no more than $700, but what is your budget? I like Grace cartridges (for example).

With any cheap MC you have only 600 hrs - this is more or less a life span of the elliptical tip (and you can’t replace the stylus yourself, so add re-tippers service fee, you already know it's time consuming process, in the end even "cheap" MC is not cheap, so many limitations). I like MC cartridges, but mine are expensive. There are no direct preferences when I compare some of the best MC and some of the best MM/MI. It's better to have both types!  

The real question is how do I stay an audiophile while going through a divorce and no longer have the budget I once had.  Some days I wish I picked a cheap hobby 

You could get a cartridge like the Ortofon 2m Bronze and then upgrade the stylus to a 2m black down the road. If I recall, you can do the same thing with some lines of AT MM cartridges that share the same body. 

Chakster how many master tapes do you own.  What groups are they and and which albums.  What equipment  where  these tapes made on and what equipment did they play them back on to finalize  the finished product.  Also what  play back equipment  did you use in your  home to ,play the  master tapes back and what equipment  did you use to play your album on to know  your choices in cartridges  sound the same?

Also  on your reference system at home  does a Decca,  grado,  ortofon, AT,  grace,  denon,  sound like the master tape.  How about your  room at your house same condition  as the studio.   I am assuming  you have the same  speakers/ headphones as tape studio and equipment.  That just reminded me  all the studios did not  use  same equipment  so I assume  you have  list of the  studios equipment  which produced  the master tapes you own, so you can  set up  the right equipment  to AB to the cartridge  which is identical  to the master tape.

Are you using your 2 stage 2a3  SET amp to make these comparisons.   For the record I had a grace f9e for over 20 years  a nice polite  cartridge.  For rock and roll the denon will wipe the floor over the F9E.  A grado sonata will  beat up a F9e in rock and roll and was  never design  for that.  But maybe you do not  own a master tape with rock and roll on it.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

PS  I forgot to ask about the pressing  facilities and their equipment.   I have 3 different  labels for some of my favorite   albums . Quess what they all sound different.   Do not know which one sounded like the master , but I do have preferences  in my system.

Justin  you might want to talk to Jeff at audiomod.  I built the 1st or 2nd kit  he had years ago.  He made  head shell weights for the  the arms for  the 103.  Ask him about rock and roll and jazz with the denon 103.  I pretty sure he has used or heard them.  Also you  might  google  103 and 103r and  see what the of the world has to say.  I always  find  this statement  humorous.   Well it  did not do this or that but boy was it musical.  Also if  you use  103 or 103r experiment  with the loading.  I can use any loading  in 1 ohm increments  and have found lower than 1 to 10 Golden  rule to be better with denons.

Enjoy the ride 
Tom

Are you using your 2 stage 2a3 SET amp to make these comparisons. For the record I had a grace f9e for over 20 years a nice polite cartridge. For rock and roll the denon will wipe the floor over the F9E. A grado sonata will beat up a F9e in rock and roll and was never design for that. But maybe you do not own a master tape with rock and roll on it.

Tom, I have many amps, but not a 2a3, if you’re talking about my Yamamoto A-08s SET then my choice of tubes are 45s (not 2a3). I slowly upload images on "my audiogon system page" everyday, but at the moment there are stuff I’ve been using before 2019.

Did I even mention F9? I said I like Grace, but I have nearly all Grace cartridges (in my collection of the best MM) from F8 Custom to F14, including F12, LEVEL II and even a signature Grace Asakura ONE (this is LOMC). If you ever heard about any of them (except for F8 and F9) let me know. The F9E is not the best Grace. There are much better Grace cartridges with LC-OFC coil, Beryllium, Boron, Sapphire, Ceramic cantilevers, LineContact and MicroRidge styli. This is what I like from Grace.

I forgot to ask about the pressing facilities and their equipment. I have 3 different labels for some of my favorite albums . Quess what they all sound different. Do not know which one sounded like the master , but I do have preferences in my system.

I guess your post is trolling.

Ok, I do not have a master tapes at home, but I’m in the music industry for over 25 years and I traveled a lot in pre-covid era, I was taking pictures at some of the best independent analog studios in Europe, the closest is Timmion Records in Helsinki (linked files below are from my 35mm film)

They got tons of vintage studio equipment and instruments (this is hammond organ for example), their live band is The Soul Investigators, this track (recorded in Finland) was in Barack Obama playlist. I

I was in the studio at the recording sessions several times. They got this Neumann cutting lathe with "12 inch SME tonearm and Stanton MM cartridge, this huge Studer multitrack and some other equipment to die for. They cut lacquers (master disks) for many labels, they also cut lacquers for myself. I’ve hear fresh masters before and after pressing (Pallas Pressing plant in Germany - one of the best pressing plants today in Europe). I was an executive producer of 8 records pressed in Detroit on Archer’s pressing plant.

Sorry, I do not listen to rock’n’roll, except maybe for a few The Doors albums, I prefer ’70s Funk & Soul music and related stuff.


*** Regarding MM vs MC and the master tapes, I will post this once again for you to read, maybe you will find names you can trust in quotes from the article below:

Another interesting article in the back issue of TAS (The Analog Sound, Issue 40) magazine called "Assessing the State-of-the-Art in Storage Media". In this, J. Tammblyn Henderson reports on a listening session comparing digital master tape, analogue master tape, direct-to-disc lacquer and the "live" mike feed; the report consists of a long conversation among J.Boyk, Keith Johnson, Doug Sax, and J. Tammblyn Henderson himself.

What cartridge could have the "lowest distortion of all," "uncanny" resolution, better than master tapes?

Kavi Alexander, auteur of the remarkable Water Lily Acoustics series of analogue vinyl discs, is monitoring disc production by comparing test pressings to the master tape. What cartridge is he using? Another moving magnet, this time the TECHNICS EPC 100 mk4. But he describes the AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-ML170 as very similar, and very close to the actual sound of the tape. In this comparison, he says, virtually no moving coil does so well; most have seriously apparent coloration.

The contrast between these views of moving magnet cartridges and usual audiophile opinion is striking. On the one hand, we have assurances from these leaders of the High-End recording industry that the best MOVING MAGNETS are very close to the master tape (or live mic feed, for direct to disc) and that they are capable of "uncanny" resolution. On the other hand, we have the prevailing perception, amounting almost to a shibboleth, of the High-End listening community, that only MOVING COILS are realistic in some sense of that word and that moving magnets are incapable of sonic truth.

As ASP pointed out in TAS (Issue 70), the audiophile consumer and dealer community is massively arrayed against MOVING MAGNETS cartridges. But experimentation is interesting, and in this case inexpensive. If your audiophile friends give you a hard time, you’ll certainly have a pat answer: you can say if it’s good enough for Kavi Alexander, Jim Boyk, and Doug Sax, it’s good enough for me. The AT-ML170 has tip resonance at 40 kHz, and hence response that extends to that frequency at least. Flanders again: "The ear can’t hear as high as that. Still, it ought to please any passing bat." Seriously, though, such ultra-extension does seem to be associated with exceptional top end clarity.

Everyone is entitled to personal tastes, but truth is truth. If you want to hear something like the truth, I still say-no matter what everyone else is using-that you should buy a flat-top cartridge like the AT-ML170 and avoid all MC cartridges with a rising top-end. If the sound of live music is your goal, why would you want to hear a sound which is not only untrue to its source but also is something you are "seldom conscious of live".



**** P.S. I bought all the cartridges from that TAS article and they are all amazing! As I said I like LOMC cartridges too and I have many of them, but I can always recommend an exceptional MM for lower prices than my favorite LOMC cartridges (FR-7fz or FR-7f, Miyabi MCA or Miyabi Standard, Miyajima Kansui ... they are all very expensive). Cheap cartridges like Denon 103 or 103r can’t compete even with cheaper MM, you have to invest another $500-800 to a conical DL103 (and it will be completely refurbished) to make it listenable.