Plinko,
I agree with your comments on the Mullard CV4004. Definately more resolution and less fuzzy sounding. More recessed soundstage compared to the stock Chinese tubes( also very good) or the Ei Ecc-83 Gray plates I tried. More punchy, deeper bass. I am using the Mazda Chrome Plate 12AU7 ca.~1963
I have some RCA 12AX7 c.1955 long BP's (not 5751) on the way and some very highly regarded Sylvania labeled Conn.12AU7ca.~1953 on the way to audition only from a good friend.( he wont part with them to sell!!)
If you still read this thread...let us know where you are in your tube rolling on the PL2.
Regards,
Ken |
About $180 for each pair. I got the Platinum Grade from Upscale on the Mullards - that jacks up the price quite a bit. Amperex 7316s seem hard to find. Good thing is both these tubes are supposed to last forever. |
Plinko, for a tube rookie, what is the cost on the tubes you mentioned? |
Well, here are my short comments on tube rolling so far. I have tried the Mullard CV4004 and the Amperex 7316. Both very expensive tubes. I'll probably keep them but I figured I could sell them if I don't like them (but, I do like them, oh yes). Finally, one doesn't really need to tube roll this amp as it sounds great with the stock tubes.
Mullard CV4004/12AX7: If you could draw a picture of the sound, then the Primaluna prior to this tube would have fuzzy edges. The edges are now clear and precise. Sexy? Yep. Kevin Deal's recommendation on this tube is right on point. I love the tonality of this tube. Most noticeable was what it did to the bass...so much more to hear from the bass.
Amperex 7316/12AU7: Still way to early for comments but I do notice that pairing this tube with the Mullards leads to a tighter sound with more punch. The bass sounds lower and fuller to me but with the same amount of definition I gained from the Mullard (good!). Soundstage seems moved back a little bit. Both tubes made the soundstage less forward. I definitely hear a lot more 'energy' in the music than with the stock Chinese tubes (also good!). I need to play this tube a bit more to get a real impression, however.
Next up will be some less expensive current production tubes.
I listened to Tim Buckley - 'Happy/Sad', Joni Mitchell - 'Blue', Air - 'Talkie Walkie', Echo & the Bunnymen - 'Crocodiles', Bill Evans 'Explorations' SACD, Sarah Vaughn - 'Sarah Vaughn', and many others. |
Mikemarv, the audiophile aps did not improve the sound anywhere near what a component change would do. It improved the bass more than I thought possible, other than that the improvements were subtle. Overall it did make my system more satisfying to listen to however if I spent $2200 on this I think I would feel disappointed. But that is a personal call. The money could be spent on more music or a major upgrade for a primary component. I have both the PL and Arcam plugged into it. The folks at audiophile aps said there is no need for separation of digital and analog components with their product. From the little bit of testing I did I would say they were correct. |
Jval17, congrats on your win! I am using a Hydra 2 with nice results. I'm sure there is room for improvement, but the Hydra 2 seems to be in line with ny system in terms of cost. I would love to hear a product like the aps700 in my system, but then I would be left with - how do I pay for it??? ;) |
I think I will email Upscale and ask about the possiblity of preamp out option. Right now I use small monitors full range with a pair of subs. I may have to change speakers before I would try the Primaluna. My plan includes selling one of my two preamps and keeping my SS power amp so I can play with both set-ups. I will ask him to post his answer here, if he does not, I will report his answer here. |
Jval197, I am envious of your good furtune having won such a fine pc. Do you plug your source into it, or just the amp? Did you happen to audition any others? I have the Prologue I with SuperTjoeb CDP Upsampled, and am presently thinking about adding something along the lines of a Blue Circle Music Ring, Equi=Tech or perhaps an Audio Magic Mini Digital (all around $800ish). I tried the DeZorel G2 and, although there was a slight positive difference, it wasn't on the order of a component upgrade. |
Fellow Primaluna owners. I have the PL One. I happened to win a audiophile aps 700 ac power regenerator. I wasn't expecting much but I figured, what the heck, it's free, and it probably can't hurt having clean power so I hooked it up. After a day of use I am very impressed. The bass in particular is much more dynamic and with more punch. It is now very close to the bass I was getting out of the Krell integrated I was using. The highs sound more natural without any shimmer. Overall it's a very nice improvement over what I felt was pretty awesome sound from my system. It's a pretty expensive item, given the cost of the PL's, but my experience with this type of product has been very positive in case any one else here ever wondered about these things. |
Anybody pair the Prima with GMA Europas> |
Hey guys while we are on the topic of the 2. I have been recommended this unit for my shanling modded cdt100 cd player to run with my martin logan ascents.Anyone have any experience with the ascents, is it powerful enough to drive the bottom end as well.I tried an original mc275 and found it to be too bright with the logans so i am looking for a good match.Any help would be much appreciated. |
Just a quick comment on the PrimaLuna ProLogue Two. I borrowed it from a friend and have been listening now for about three weeks. Its a terrific intergrated,smooth sounding....never tiring.Hats of to Kevin Deal at Upscale...you have an excellent product. And at its price...hard to beat.For people looking for an excellent,compact intergrated amp....check this one out first !!! |
Paul, I look forward to your thoughts on your new tubes once you get a chance to listen and respond.
As for the KT88 vs. EL34, the EL34 are Svetlana's, and yes they are smoother. I'm not sure how much 'punch' they lose vs. the KT's, but I am hoping to comment on them more thoroughly in the near future.
I've had the EL34's in the Prologue Two for the past two weeks, and I'm ready to switch back to the KT88's again to hear the differences between them. I like to have some time for both the tubes to 'break in' and also time to acclimate myself to their presentaion vs. A/B'ing them in one listening session. I'll post my thoughts after I spend some more time with each in 'my system'. I'll be sure to notify you when I do.
As for the dedicated circuit, my father and I worked on that. My father was a building equipment manager for Bell Atlantic his whole career before retiring, so he is very handy to have around for those types of projects. I terminated the circuit with a PS Audio Power Port (cost-$50), and the cabling was maybe $25? For $75 and the time invested, it was WELL worth it! If you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself and end up paying someone else, your probably still under $200, and at that price it is still a very worthwhile tweak!
Jim |
oh well, wish there was a delete function. this was supposed to go in my 'system. sorry. please ignore. |
Jh2os, if I can get a hold of someone's digital camera, then I can get some pics up here. Pics are most enjoyable. When this happens, you will see the problems with the layout (27" TV between speakers, flimsy audio rack, etc...). Sometimes I wheel the TV out of the room for listening.
Did you do the dedicated circuit yourself or have someone do it? Cost?
Paul |
Jh2os, I've got a pair of Mullard CV4004/12AX7's and a pair of Amperex 7316/12AU7's on the way. I'll be sure to post my thoughts.
I also plan to try other tubes later on this summer. My "discretionary spending" is maxed out for the time being although I probably will pick up a few inexpensive tubes for comparison. :-)
What EL-34s have you tried and what are the differences? Less punch more smoothness? (this is what I tend to read usually) |
Kevin, do you have any specific 'favorites' in the 12AX7 / 12AU7 roles in the Prologue Two? Anyone else care to offer an opinion?
I'm still experimenting between KT88 and EL34. |
Yikes I lost this thread! The 12AX7 will play the most important role. And don't assume you have to spend a lot of jack. It does not run any of the tubes hard. Suuuuper easy.
the 12AU7 tubes you can use tubes that are quiet but they do not have to be low in microphony. This means you can pop in some sexy Mullards Siemens Radiotechniques or whatever for low $$$$. You don't need the top grade.
On the topic of power tubes...was there any questions? |
I am using Axiom M60s with the Prologue Two. I could not be happier. Can't wait to upgrade tubes. |
Using Dunlavy SC-III's with incredible results. |
Using Audio Physic Yara floorstanders with Prologue I, and am really enjoying the combo. I auditioned the Prologue with Sonus Faber Concertos, which is a superb speaker. |
I'm using the One with my Martin Logan ReQuests. Makes the ML's sing!! |
Dont look now, but some of the 'Cheap Chinese' stuff is embarrassing the 'Big Boys'. Im thinking of giving the PrimaLuna a shot. Whos using what speakers?....cheap Chinese might be just the thing for this cheap American. |
Kevin
With all the respect,I had a crack when read your comment on the "cheap-o-stuff".What should we call the Primaluna?
Made in the People's republic of China.What about the cheesy name?LOL.
All the best
George |
Question for Kevin Deal:
Since the 12AX7 has "a more important role" sonically, does that mean it does the voltage amplification? I'm confused because at first you said 12AU7 is the driver tube....
Perhaps you could describe the different stages of this amp a bit.
Thanks |
Kevin, I want to personally thank you for your input in this thread.
I was quite curious about the ability of the larger amp to accept EL34 tubes, and you answered my questions. Normally, the bigger tube (6550/KT88) amps will take the smaller EL34 tubes, but not usually vice versa.
Personally, I have always tried to buy amplifiers (Jadis, Granite) that run the larger tubes, but give me the flexibility of running the EL34. If I had to choose a tube, however, it would be the JJ KT88.
Stupid question - Can the Prologue 2 run 6L6 tubes? Not that I am a fan of them, but some people like running them.
Thank you again for this information! |
Vincedog3:
I highly recommend the SuperTjoeb 4000 (with upsampling) especially with upgraded tubes from Kevin Deal's secret stash, e.g., Ediswans. You'll love it!
Best wishes,
Lou |
For those of you who asked about tube rolling - I have had a One for 2 months now and have changed out the EL34's, the 12AX7's and the 12AU7's, trying various combinations. They all make a meaningful, and readily apparent change in the sound of this unit - you really can tune it quite easily to get the sound you would like. I'm sure this would work for the Two as well.
My suggestion for those of you with limited tube experience - before you get caught up in buying expensive NOS tubes do some research on the tube types and the sound attributed to the various current production brands. Its a cheap way of getting some valuable experience - eventually you can move on to some NOS stuff but I think some of you will be surprised at how good these units can sound with good quality new production tubes. Audio Asylum's tube forum is a good source of info as is Job's Tube Lore in the AA FAQ's. |
Thanks guys for all the kind words. I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see the reaction from people that really feel like they got something for their money.
Tube rolling:
The manuals I think are pretty nifty (I wrote most of it for the English market). The ProLogue one is best to stay with EL-34. We don't want to represent going to 6550/KT88 is OK.
The ProLogue Two can go to EL-34 should you decide to. In fact...the Adaptive AutoBias is so "smart" that if you broke a KT88 and did not have one, you can use an EL-34 until you get a replacement! It adjusts!
In the 12AU7 position, you do not have to get the highest testing tubes as they are the driver. So if you want...save some bucks.
The 12AX7 has a more important roll, so a low noise tube is preferred for best performance. But because it has a nice quiet filament supply, it won't be as picky as some cheap-o stuff I won't mention. (The cheap-o stuff costs 2.5 times the PrimaLuna price by the way)
You may want to try the 1961 Sylvania 12AX7. They are nifty and reasonable. Want sexy? Try Mullard CV4004.
The message it you can scale the heights...but if budget conscious there are no worries. The tubes are run easy. No components, including tubes, are stressed. It is fuse protected.
Lastly...giving an honest opinion is nice on chat or better yet review forums. It helps us keep the price low. I ask a lot of folks to take the bottom plate off the amp to see how it's built. I hope you do.
Cheers to all of you
Kevin Deal |
Any comparisons to a dynaco St-70 stock or modified as I have both and I am thinking of a primaluna |
Vincedog3,
Just ordered my Primaluna Prologue Two today. Any breakin
suggestions, or were you impressed out of the box?
I'm also thinking about getting the Njoe Tjoeb 4000 cdp.
Any thoughts on that plan?
Thanks, |
Hi Just got my Primaluna Prologue Two, and have to say worth every penny. My Maggie MMGs' love it, and that bass punch and smoothness is very engaging. I have to go to bed sometime, but this amp makes me just listen and listen and listen. Way recommended. Happy listening. |
The Prologue One is my first foray into tubes. I'm not even sure what tube rolling is. |
Thanks for those comments. Now on to the next part: Have any of you started rolling any of the tubes? |
I own the prologue one. Which I love. These words are from Kevin Deal @ Upscale audio in an email he sent me:
"In a nutshell, the ProLogue Two will have a little more dynamic and punch than the One. It will also have a smidge more clarity and detail, due to the upgraded capacitors and fast-recovery diodes. The ProLogue One is smoother sounding. "
Hope this helps. |
Did the Two lose any 'musicality' that the One may have possesed? What speakers where you driving when making your comparison? |
Prima Luna Two is slightly more detailed. The sound has bit more punch (dynamics) but remains very sweet. I prefer the Prologue Two even with the price difference of $250 retail. |
