kgturner,
I also had a hum issue from one channel with my Cab Dual, but effectively reduce it by turning down the gain on the amps. A futher reduction in hum was obtained by re-routing the two umbilical cords on the Dual. |
Abe:
I don't have a scope nor any access to one that I'm aware of. The hum sounds like a typical ground loop hum to me (60 Hz). I can try the shielded cable route, but I'd likely have to build it. What you're saying is connect the ground and shield at one end of the RCA and just the ground at the other end? |
Hello Kgturner,
I doubt it if the hum is cause by a tube. Do you have a scope? I ask because you can measure what freq your hum is. 60 hertz and it could be mechanical (tube or transformers vibrating) or filament supply voltage, 120 Hz. and it surely is coming from the rectified voltage of the B+. So which one is it and how much is the amplitude?
One thing to try is to have a shielded cable(shield connected at the preamp side only)from amp to preamp. Try it reverse also and see what happens.
regards,
Abe |
Marius:
Which tube out of the bunch would be the likliest culprit? The Cab Dual uses two 101D, two 6SN7, two 6H30, two 5881, and a single 5AR4. I'd be fairly pricey to completely retube the Cabernet as the 101D's aren't cheap. I figure I can start with the 6SN7 first to see. Any other opinions? |
Could be a noisy tube......
If you think it is ground loop problem (you have to be sure) fine a dealer and ask for loan of a Ground Zero made by Granite Audio. (if you are in tri-state area - let me know). I had a similar headache just a while ago. Turn out to be a "noisy" tube in one of my amps.
Cheers |
I bought a set of XLR-RCA adapters for the preamp output of my Cabernet to see if it would reduce a hum issue I was having. The adapters did eliminate the hum, BUT it ABSOLUTELY killed the dynamics, bass, and overall volume of the music.
The manual does not state what the xlr pinout is, but I did email Mick and he stated that pin 2 is hot, so I believe the Cabernet follows the USA XLR standard (Pin 1 = Shield ground, Pin 2 = Positive balanced signal, Pin 3 = Negative balanced signal). The XLR-RCA adapter was made to the USA XLR standard according to the maker of the adapter.
I'm connecting the Cabernet to a Yamamoto A-08S. As stated before, I wanted to try the adapter to see if it would effect the hum issue which I have. I had previously built my own RCA to XLR cable (Pin 2 to RCA Center, Pin 1 & 3 to RCA Ground) and I had the same problem with my homemade cable that I had with the adapters - death of dynamics, bass depth, and overall volume. I thought I just botched my cable job, but apparently the problem is different.
I'm guessing the problem is with the Cabernet. Before I received the Cabernet, I had the Yamamoto connected to a Denon receiver and did not have the hum problem that I'm having now. I haven't changed the RCAs, power cords, or speaker cables. The only change was the Supratek.
As far as addressing the hum before the adapters, I have tried floating the ground on just the preamp, just the amp, on both, and on my speakers (Von Schweikert dB99-SE). However, all the ground floating did nothing.
I reconnected the RCA to RCA this morning, but left the adapters still connected to the Cabernet XLR out. I noticed the same reduction in hum as well the constriction of dynamics, bass, and volume. Once I unplugged the adapters, the hum came back, but so did the "life" in the music. If anybody has any suggestions to reduce the hum, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks much. |
For the Cabernet Dual has anyone tried bi-amping using this preamp on a two-way pair of speakers that can be bi-wired.
I've just hooked up a pair of 2A3 monoblocks to the 101D section which feeds the ribbon tweeter on the speakers and a pair of 13E1 monoblocks to the 6H30 section of the pre-amp which feeds the woofer.
The sound is fantastic, but am thinking some of that mid-range magic is compromised. Any thoughts ? |
Fiddler, I thought it was that ;-) had to ask anyway.
Thanks DWR, I will have to follow up on the Orions one day.
Steve. |
Hi Steve
For what its worth I am also using the Linkwitz Orions with the Chenin pre. I couldn't agree more with Abe's description of the Oorions. I also was a huge fan of electrostatics and went from Martin Logan Ascent i speakers to the Orions and the Orions sound better by far than the Logans. I also use no sub. |
Stevem,
If you can't remember, it's already to late! Ask your wife, she'll remind you :) |
Oops! sorry Fiddler not loss of memory, just didn't see Clipsal's reference to Srajan's article the first time (you'll notice that my first post on the matter is 13 posts down from Clipsal's so I musn't have read them all).
BTW Fiddler, what's the first thing to go if memory is second ??
Cheers,
Steve. |
Stevem,
I guess this is why I am confused.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1016931418&openflup&3285&4#3285
The link that you provided is the exact same link we all discussed last time. You actually posted in the cap rolling discussion that several of us were engaged as a result of the article.
Memory is the second thing to go :) |
Hi Fiddler, yes caps were discussed earlier but now expanded upon by Srajan as a fullblown 6moons article which I haven't seen before.
Abe: thanks for the comments on the Orion, sounds like worth following up on. I too am into SETs and point source drivers at the moment, currently Lowther DX3 in OB or Martin King's MLTL box.
Steve. |
Stevem1960,
Did you just have deja vu?
Wasn't this cap rolling link just discussed, with you participating, just a little higher in this thread?
I don't get it. |
I noticed you have the Linkwitz Orion open baffle loudspeaker, what's your honest opinion of it? I've been interested to try it out, is it as transparent as the Maggies or is it just cones & domes doing their usual thing? Also, does the OB bass go low enough for you (I notice you have separate subwoofers)... Hello Steve, The Orions are the best speakers I ever heard! No other speakers that I heard off exhibits the same dynamics and bass impact what the Orions (4 x Peerless XLS subwoofers in dipole config)can do. Granted that I only heard a handful of the speakers through my audition but I can assure you, it will kill the Wilsons or VR's with a price tag of $8-10K in terms of dynamics no matter what amps you use for them. Hard to believe eh! I was an electrostatic die hard. Also was an maggie head. Even if you love SS gears, the maggies and the Martin Logans I own are easily bested by the Orions to my ears. I am now exploring the high efficiency/SET domain and to be honest, I really like it. No, I do not have subwoofers! Only for HT where I still have a Velodyne but there is no pics of it in my system page. I now have an Altec 604-8G's in OB. Bass cannot be compared to the Orions of course nor the "dynamic" impact where the Orions really excell. But knowing my limitations with power(SET)and damping factor which needs to be considered also, and the fact that it is single driver open baffle implementation, I cannot complain. I am happy of what I got and I know it can only get better. Besides, the Altec 604's excells on its ability to provide pin point imaging and not to provide very flat response across the freq spectrum. regards, |
This is interesting ...about capacitor rolling.
http://6moons.com/audioreviews/caprolling/caps.html
Regards,
Steve. |
Hello Abe, just checked out your system ...nice collection especially that Teres turntable.
I noticed you have the Linkwitz Orion open baffle loudspeaker, what's your honest opinion of it? I've been interested to try it out, is it as transparent as the Maggies or is it just cones & domes doing their usual thing? Also, does the OB bass go low enough for you (I notice you have separate subwoofers)...
Thanks,
Steve. |
Hello Paul,
I will never own a Cortese. Not because of monetary issues but I just do not need one.
I use a Chenin FF preamp with Mullard 8080 and Amperex BB's on the phono section. I have an Altec 604-8G's in OB and 612C Altec cabs, a Fostex MLTL, and a Bozak Rhapsody. They are 100dB, 95 dB, and 92 dB respectively. I am very happy about the synergy and the preamp does not hum even at maximum gain settings (per channel) of the phono and minimum attenuation (full) of the linestage volume.
Before the Chenin, I was using a Wright Sound WPP100C. The Chenin phono is much much better than the Wright! No comparison! Besides, you need very quiet tubes on the WPP100C or you will hear "tube rush" or hiss as you increase the individual gain pots on it. Not a problem with the Chenin. Very quiet!
After that, I went a little "pie tasting" if you will. I had the Pass Xono, Hagerman Trumpet, and a heavily modified Hagerman Cornet II. I do not care for the Pass, The Trumpet was very nice, and i can get very close to the sound of the Trumpet with the Cornet II. So I sold the first two and kept the Cornet.
Like you, I played vinyl almost exclusively. Hell, check my equiptment page and you will see that I am telling the truth. Besides, now that I am on the SET/High Eff camp, hum issue is a no no to take advantage of the speakers high efficiency in order not to mask the small nuances that contributes to the listening experience.
My experiences in the context of my own system only of course!
regards,
Abe |
Hi guys,
I previously owned a Sauvignon which I loved but sold when I got into vinyl. My listening is now 95% vinyl and I want a new preamp with a world-class phono stage.
I am not sure if I would want to spring for the Cortese or not. The raves over the Chenin are rather impressive. Who has heard both relatively recently and could comment? How much difference is there?
I have heard that the Cortese circuit (linestage part at least) is far more complex. IME, simple circuits with very high quality parts usually do all things well, if noise is kept down.
Noise is paramount as I use 100 dB speakers. Any comments on noise between the two? How about liquidity of midrange - that's probably goal #1.
I would like to read the whole thread but that will take awhile... |
Sorry - scratch my last post guys... I was browsing thru this monsterous thread and came upon Timchen's post and responded to it thinking it was recent. Its like from 2002 ...yikes . This thread has been around for so long...unreal. I gotta pay better attention.
good listening. |
Timchen
"what I am saying is why should I trust these users?"
I don't think anyone here wants you to trust them. Most could care less. This thread IMO has evolved into more of an information forum about Suprateks by people who have taken the 'risk' and have questions about the units. That said there are plenty of 'independent' reviews on the web to illustrate how good these preamps are. Also the fact that this thread is over 3000 should speak for itself. Finally the few that sell here on audiogon, sell for about 80% of their retail so the risk factor is relatively low if you end up finding it just doesn't float your boat at the end of the day.
|
Zachzdb,
I think everyone here would welcome comparisons of the Supratek to any other preamp if the poster has actually compared the two, but to just come in and try to hijack the thread by rambling about another product is a different kettle of fish. |
Unfortunately any long running owners thread develops a "circle the wagons" attitude toward unasked postings. Personally,I'd just as soon hear direct comparisons made if there's a complete rundown of equipment used/room set up to estimate system/hearing differences and to figure where differences(if any) could originate.
There are ways to hopefully keep the flames down. Perhaps if owners of differing high achievers would start out by asking first if any of the regular posters have made any comparisons,or heard first hand the differing piece in question,maybe the window for "rightous" anger would be a little less wide open.
I would hope we all would still be open to new things mentally. Doesn't have to mean that you'd even be interested in changing anything. Just be open to hear about new products,if posted respectfully.
Would any of us here have been so interested in Supratek if there weren't many comparisons to other pres made,especially in the early days of this thread? |
Don't feed the monster. It only encourages off-topic posts when we respond to the irrelevant intrusions. |
why do other people try to latch onto to this thread to pimp other brands preamps? i'm sure the h-cat, audio horizon, and dodd preamps are excellent in their own right, but this is a supratek discussion thread. Exactly! Don't waste your time, jealousy is very difficult to understand. Honestly, I heard the "battery" powered preamp mentioned by the poster above. This is not new as it has been on the threads at Audio Circle for a long time now. In fact, I recall, it was launched there. All I can say is that to each his own. I have a Chenin for 4 years now! I am happy, and that's what really matters to me. regards, Abe |
If battery power was the be-all and end-all solution for audio, then all your portable CD players, ghetto blasters and car CD decks running on 12v batteries etc would be reference sources?? Which they are definately NOT ...
I've owned a tricked up battery powered esoteric Pioneer CD player and the N.E.W DC-33 battery powered Class A amplifier. Nice sounding equipment, but a pain in the a*s charging and replacing batteries when the time comes.
Regards,
Steve. |
Arkio, on one hand the dc power from batteries is a good thing for clean power. But here is something to seriously cosider, with a 16 hour charge life on the battery pack that means on a day like yesterday when I had my system on from 7am thru 2 am which is 19 hours I would have had to get up and change the battery pack at 11 pm or shut the system down and recharge the battery. As you said, I think I'll just stick to my Chennin plugged into the ac for as many continuous hours as I would like. |
I've had my Chenin for about two years and have enjoyed it. Unfortunately, about two weeks ago, I turned on the preamp and my solid state power amp at exactly the same time. The tube in the power supply seemed to get really bright like it was about to explode. I then turned off the unit. When I turned it back on all the tubes lit up, but no sound came out of my system. Mick told me to replace the tube, but that has not helped. Anyone else have any ideas as to how to fix? |
A Preamp on batteries. Sounds interesting. Can't help to think battery powered anything will eventually need replacing or will degrade over time as it charges and expends...(hell, I am on my 6th rechargable battery for my phone and it drives me nuts) What do you do 5 years from now when you need a new battery, spend another $3500? What if Dodd ain't around. Thanks but I'll stick to my Supratek...I have compared it to numerous preamps costing in excess of 7K and it still holds my attention. And there ain't no battery! |
No you are not over reacting and you are not the only one. Posts like the one you are refering to are part of the reason I don't post on here very often at all, its just not worth it. And it bseems to be getting nothing but worse. |
why do other people try to latch onto to this thread to pimp other brands preamps? i'm sure the h-cat, audio horizon, and dodd preamps are excellent in their own right, but this is a supratek discussion thread.
if you've compared the h-cat, audio horizon, or dodd preamp to a supratek preamp and want to share your experience, then by all means post away. if you're just trying to shill for the other companies, there are other threads already going for this.
i suppose the thread title is what confuses people. can we change it to "Supratek - Preamp Deal of the Century"? maybe i'm just over-reacting to this. am i the only one? |
The Dodd audio pure DC power preamp is so detailed and with a black background and no noise from AC to disrupt the signal, these 3 gel cell batterys you get over 16hrs from a charge and 3 hours to recharge and they last for at least 3-4 years .A great preamp and completely made in the U.S and Vacuum tubed with 2-6922, a beautfull curly maple.p.s all batterys now run in series ,the Bass is superb and with over 100amps available it is better than any pre at up to $7k I compared this to at $3500 a steal! |
Blindman,
Here's a separate thread regarding the Joe Chow preamp:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1142509250&read&keyw&zzaudio=horizons
|
Hi all,
Well, just chiming in here. What about this Audio Horizons preamp from Joe Chow. That's supposed to be good stuff too. |
you could try reprogramming it. according to the manual:
"hold down the code key and press power, the red light will flash, enter 1 1 4 1 4 and the red light will go out if correctly programmed."
be sure you're aiming the remote toward the center of the cabernet as that's where the IR "eye" is. i've heard that sometimes the volume knob sticks due to the tight tolerances mick uses. good luck. |
I just hooked up a new Cabernet Dual, all's well except I can't get the remote to work. I emailed Mick but in the meantime does anyone have any ideas? Thanks! |
06-26-07: Amandarae
Hello Sorlowski,
My Chenin is #238 and it has an Auricap (1uF) at the output for both channels of course. Are you sure you are looking at the output caps? Maybe Mick change it who knows but just want to be sure you are looking at the right caps.
As for the teflon caps, after installing mine (Sonicap Teflon) for two weeks, I conclude that in my system although it produces additional "details" or maybe I am just expecting it to happen, I have to put the Auricap back. I do not know but for me, I noticed something regarding the "weight" of the presentation as in different "ambience" on the recording I am very familiar with. Hard to describe! Maybe it is not for me. Maybe my set up is not on par with "Teflon caps" capability.
BTW, the caps have atleast 400 hours on it since I used it on my SET amp before.
regards,
Abe Same here! As I posted way back(see above), the Teflon cap is not my cup of tea. I really want to like it, but when listening to live recordings on vinyl, the ambient noise, venue noise if you will, sounds different to me. Not good! Life is too short not to be honest to yourself.... regards, Abe |
To be clear, just because I happen to share Mick's personal preference for the Auricaps now that I have compared them to the VCaps doesn't mean (nor should it be inferred to mean) that those who prefer the VCaps are off their rocker -:)
Nor would Mick make them available if people didn't like 'em. Just as you pointed out, tube rolling (and cap rolling) are simply after-the-fact voicing options for the end user and Mick's hard-wiring scheme makes experimenting with cap swaps a lot easier than circuit board mounting -;) |
Agreed Fiddler, and a lot what you say makes sense and different tubes *do* sound different. However, you'll notice that what Mick proposes with tube swapping is changing the type of tube to alter the sound, say from a 45 to 300B rather tube rolling within the same type.
That said, I suppose it is common knowledge that some tubes within the same type are better than others, the Western Electric 300B being a good example of a universally praised 'best of' 300B. With Mick's preamps all I'm saying is that they leave the factory sounding pretty good, and a lot of us have found for example that his chosen EH-6SN7 seems to sound just as good (if not better) than the drawful of expensive Kenrads/Sylvania VT231's some of us have ended with!
In the end, I do agree with you that you need to trust your ears and if tube rolling or cap swaps give a perceived better result - then thats all that matters.
Regards,
Steve. |
Here's what I don't get. It seems that some here think that one shouldn't change caps, pots or even tubes in Suprateks simply because, "Mick didn't build 'em that way."
I think that is just so much nonsense. As much as I respect Mick's work, he's not God. I clearly happen to disagree with him on the DACT and the V-Caps. That's okay with me that we disagree, I still respect his opinion, I just have a different one.
Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere also has a different opinion. He offers an expensive cap UPGRADE on his preamps to guess what ... V-Caps and I think Ralph has a pretty good reputation in the business.
I find it ironic that while some believe that Mick's preamps "shouldn't be tinkered with", Mick offers this on his website:
"The Cabernet Single uses 6SN7 and 101D tubes , but can also be ordered with your favorite DHT tube. Choose from the 45,300B or 101D (standard) or if you would like to hear the lush smooth tones of a genuine 1930's NOS tube we can supply the single with 6SN7 and 33 tubes..."
Well, what the hey! That's some major tinkering.
To some it's heresy and just short of a crime to change to a cleaner, clearer, better defined, more musical cap (V-Cap or Mundorf) or better attenuator (DACT) because, "That's not the one Mick uses." However, I'd bet these same people would find it perfectly okay to change to a 45, 300B, 101D or a lush 33 all in the same preamp simply because Mick says it's okay on his website!
Hey, sorry for the rant, but it's silly to think that four different tubes can be chosen for the same preamp to alter the sound to one's preference, but heaven forbid one should change a stock tube, cap or pot!
Don't get me wrong. I think Mick's preamps are works of art, but I'm still going to trust my own ears no matter who may have a different opinion. |
I'd just like to say welcome to Srajan, your input to this forum is greatly appreciated.
As to tube rolling and cap swaps, I'm one of the Supratekies who doesn't believe in upsetting the apple cart and listen to my Grange preamp as the maker intended - with Auriecaps and the tubes as it left the factory. Living near Mick here in Western Australia and having known the guy for over 15 years, you get a feel for the way he thinks and the pride he takes in 'tuning' the sound of his preamplifiers before they are delivered to customers.
That is not to say I am not a tweaker as you can see from my many ramblings and playing around with my hi-fi at: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182&view
So IMHO, its best to leave well enough alone and just enjoy the Suprateks as is.
Regards,
Steve. |
SWEET!
I thought you got a single?
Enjoy the Bliss! |
well...after many months of waiting, my cabernet dual has arrived and is burning in as i type. i'll reserve judgement on it's "sound", but what i'm hearing straight out of the box is VERY impressive. if i had pick one word to describe what i'm hearing right now, it would be detail. loads and loads of detail without the slightest hint of harshness or grain. lemme take two words and say effortless detail.
being the nitpicky person that i am, one thing i would prefer the cab dual have that it doesn't is gain controls for the 101D section. the 6H30 has a gain control between the tubes, but there is nothing for the 101D. not even the high-low switches next to the 6SN7's that my old chardonnay had. unfortunately, i sold my chardonnay so long ago, that any audible comparison between the two would be an exercise in futility. of course, this is only a matter of functionality and not sound quality. if i had my druthers...
as with anything bearing the supratek name, the fit and finish is beyond reproach. i still marvel at how mick can sell such visually and, more importantly, audibly beautiful preamps at such a low price point. packaging is extremely sturdy. it's almost impossible to pry the preamplifier from it's packaging. i was worried i would scratch the piano black finish pulling it out, but everything appears tip top.
one thing i noticed right away is that this thing is super high gain! paired with my yamamoto a-08s (using EML 45 solid plates), i can't turn the volume knob past the 8 o'clock position without blowing myself out of the room. standing next to my von schweikert dB99 SE speakers with nothing playing, i can hear some hiss and hum. however, i can't really hear it at my listening position and it doesn't interfere with the music at all. this may be due to positioning and/or vibration control. the cab dual is sitting on top of a salamander synergy stand with the yamamoto directly between the preamp and power supply.
well that's enough, perhaps i'll post some more later, but for now, i'm gonna go listen. and as always, a very special thank you and debt of gratitude to slowhand for introducing me (and us) to these amazing preamplifiers. |
When I ordered my Sauvignon Mick installed the V-caps. They certainly do not sound brittle and harsh IMS.
I can't compare, though I never had the Auricaps might be something to try in the future.
Everybody hears differently what somebody dislikes might be the other person cat's meow.
On second thought with the stock EH 6sn7's instead of some good NOS I rolled in, the sound is a little less smooth. |
It's clearly a matter of taste. I can see how what I like about the AuriCaps, someone else might relate to as fuzzier.
I think Mick started to use VCaps because customers asked him to. I didn't like the change and asked him what he thought. After he'd put on 400 hours, he disliked the VCaps and went back to the Auris. When I asked about Audience's new Teflon caps, Mick said they were expensive as sin and he'd only recommend those to people who don't care about money (which ain't me).
Just speaking for myself, I'm thrilled to be back in the AuriCap reservation. At the end of the day, it was a great exercise to hear just how much a simple swap of two parts (one per channel) can affect the outcome of a finely calibrated circuit.
I'm sending my VCaps back to Mick so he can use them for one of his customers who wants 'em -:) |
I would like to second Fiddler - in my cortese the V caps gave bass extension, detail and cleaned up the "fuzz" - I don't see why detail and musicality are mutualy exclusive -often when resolution is improved it exposes other challenges in the system - my experience is that vibration control and room treatment need to be developed at the same time as the rest of the system |
Hi Powers,
I've got two v-caps in my Cabernet Dual as well as a whole bunch of Auricaps. Mick did say the V-Caps in mine are in the position that make the most difference. I'm also considering removing them as I don't find the Cabernet Dual as musical as the Sauvignon, I had earlier. A lot more detail yes, but maybe not as musically satisfying. The detail is probably more due to the 101D section of the pre-amp then the capacitors. |
Not my experience at all with V-caps. I love them, but who am I to argue with Mick.
I find the V-caps get rid of a lot of fuzz. Yes, they do seem increase detail, but I would rather describe them as more invisible. And don't forget, the upstream components have a lot to do with what one may hear from their Supratek.
As much as I respect Mick, he is one opinion. There are a lot of high-end manufacturers that have gone exclusively to V-caps.
So I guess to each his own, but I can't stand the fuzz of the Auricaps nor the haze of the Alps pots. I believe both components add a more diffuse sound to my Supratek and I don't like it. I prefer cystal clear detail that is still musical. And I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. If the V-caps were brittle or harsh in my system I would take them out in a heartbeat (since I was the one who put them in). I just haven't found V-caps to be a negative in any way in my system. But I do have a Forsell Air Reference Transport (noted for it's analog sound) and an Audio Note DAC in front of my Supratek.
Clearly, the system as a whole has to be viewed in the context of what one component may do to the sound. If your system is smooth, I believe V-caps will give you more smooth, if there is any harshness anywhere in your system, I believe V-caps will help expose that. YMMV |
I spoke with Mick about 5 months ago about the V-Caps, and he said he needed more time to form a final opinion. He only had about 50 to 70 hour on them. I contacted him recently and he said after putting 400+ hours on them that he did not like them and would not recommend using them. I continue to stand by my opinion that Mick got my Cortese right from the start. It sounds great to me in stock form. I have no desire to change tubes, volume control, or caps. I just continue to enjoy music!
Kgturner,
Glad to hear your Cabernet Dual is on it's way to you. I hope you enjoy it. I am sorry the Malbecs did not work out for you. |
I asked Mick about the V-CAP and he replied same as Zarco stated. |
