17 of 23 speakers in my studio and home theater systems are internally powered. My studio system is all Genelec and sounds very accurate. I know the best new concert and studio speakers are internally powered there are great technical reasons to design a speaker and an amp synergistically, this concept is much more important to sound quality than the vibration systems we often buy. How can an audiophile justify a vibration system of any sort with this in mind.
These are all essentially related so I will address as one unit.
Yes, the amplifier can be optimized to some degree, but for most active speakers, it is just an integrated solution of external boxes and moving the crossover. That is 1st/2nd generation active speaker design. Next generation designs employ more sophisticated amplification electronics that cannot be replicated by a simple external voltage amplifier and never with a passive crossover.
Missing from this discussion is not only can the amplifier be optimizing, but the driver that is used in an active design can be optimized for an active configuration. Drivers today are designed to be linear with voltage drive. That is not ideal for optimum performance but does make passive crossovers easier to design and performance more consistent.
A basic connection of the amplifier to the driver does not damp the voice coil perfectly. The resistance and inductance of the voice coil prevents that in a basic voltage drive implementation
More accurate than random amp / driver combos
I would not say that is an inherent advantage as most amplifiers will drive a speaker accurately when that amplifier behaves as a voltage source. The accuracy comes from the tight integration.
No speaker cables
Not touching that one
Amps designed for proper power handling of driver
Amps are more efficient designed for a smaller power window
Amps can be up to ½ the power (lest cost more reliability)
These are true to a point, but we also have multiple amplifiers, potentially increasing standby power. Do we have 1 power supply, multiple? Does it matter?
I don’t think it is the amp designed for power handling of the driver, but the amplifier knowing the power handling of the driver and can henceforth ensure it is protected from damage.
Comments are being made about the quality of parts built into active speakers versus external parts. I know this is a touchy subject, but when our higher end active speakers are considered, the quality of our internal DAC never enters the discussion for us. If we improved it, no one would know as the performance of the drivers is the limiting factor by a large degree. To meet marketing requirements, we are implementing the common consumer filters on some models which you may be able to hear if you feed it 44.1 or 48. Across the price range, the amplifier quality scales so that the driver is always the dominant sound unless you are driving them harder than they are designed for. The only time DAC performance is evident for us is on next generation and R&D designs as we need to grow our own. We need much higher conversion speed and less latency than integrated solutions.
Your setup a a good example of where an active speaker could provide benefit. A sub-woofer designed to compliment your speakers could use multiple drivers to create a shaped emission that matches your main speakers more closely. Could you do that passively? Perhaps, but it is much easier to do with DSP, and it is more flexible. There could be options for programming the listener distance to better shape the response as the speaker transitions from line source to other, etc. Similar to how external DSP can not fix all room issues, it cannot fix all inherent speaker issues either. At the penultimate, a sophisticated active solution could shape the drive signal for the panels to extend dynamic range.
@mijostyn, as for multichannel there are fewer recordings being made than in the past, as for Atmos it is snowballing. Atmos is OBJECT based, not CHANNEL based. It is a different category, not channel based at all. All you need to experience it is a set of the right headphones. Stop by the atmos music thread if you want to discuss.
@thespeakerdudeSomething we haven't mentioned is the nature of class D amps when they can be designed for a particular impedance of speaker they can be very good, this is why a class D Subs are not so much of a compromise it acts basically like an AB amp. With class D amps being designed for a smaller frequency window of driver the normal problem with class D amps is helped because impedance changes with frequency so the filter circuit can be much simpler. Thoughts?
@steakster, have you noticed that with the exception of small boutique brands, no one from any supplier obviously participates in audio forums with rare exceptions where maybe there is a supplier corner? There is a reason for that. No matter what you say, you will make 50% of the people unhappy. Most companies have either formal or informal rules against it for any of their customer facing or senior staff. That is the situation I am.
As well, it would be wrong for me unless I was a paid advertiser to advertise who I work for and hence our products.
@donavabdear, there are several ways of getting around the impedance issue that I am aware of, either include the magnetic components in the feedback loop or compensate for the impedance in software or hardware. Companies are building patent walls around this, or trying to. For the lowest cost the phase shift is there, but can be contained, as you control all variables, so that it is not an issue. At the high end, buy modules that don't suffer this issue, pay licensing fee, or build your own technology that will stand up to a patent lawsuit, or have a couple in your back pocket related so that you just cross-license.
@donavabdear, one area of ATMOS you could probably enlighten us on is the relationship between microphones and ATMOS objects works. When you are mixing, i.e. creating, you can place a sound wherever you want. However, for what you are doing I assume there is an aspect of capturing it as it happens. I would love to hear your perspective on that.
@steakster: it’s definitely him. Cin Dyment. He is trying to sound different, and nice, but he can’t. Venom prevails with him. Sooner or later it will be pretty clear and obvious. It’s just a matter of time. Watch the space
@jerryg123: Yeah I am right. I have dealt with the human equivalent of malware here for more than 15 usernames of his over almost three years. I know the dude very well. His evil character and deep hatred and ridicule for the hobby is unmistakable
He is likely creating a brand new username right now only to post my real name and threaten me with all kind of things. Sad creature. Here is the full list of his usernames:
There are no internal powered speakers that can compete in amplification, or loudspeaker design sonically , these are average quality class D amps
I have heard several respectable class D amps but they all start around $5k
genelec is a good powered studio monitor for the monies, but cat compete with same Bricasti amps,preamps withB&W 801 speakers these are elite studio setups ,
for-the money genelec is very sound ,but no where near at Reference level.
genelec is a good powered studio monitor for the monies, but cat compete with same Bricasti amps,preamps withB&W 801 speakers these are elite studio setups ,
for-the money genelec is very sound ,but no where near at Reference level.
But genelec have been measured by audiosciencereview and found to have perfect results. I have not seen other speakers do this.
@audioman58, by what definition do you define reference level? Popularity? Lots of write ups? Many many people do not like B&W speakers, not even the 801. As a speaker guy, there are some excellent things about this speaker, however, I always feel like they got it to market before they finished it as they always seem uneven in the upper treble. Maybe in a few years I will no longer care as I can't hear it.
What do you think Bricasti amplifiers do that cannot be done in a power speaker. This is where @donavabdear's comments come in. A class- D amplifier can easily keep up with the Bricasti for the bass frequencies, and then a good quality A/B amplifier would have no problem matching for the mids and high frequencies, both perfectly matched to the drivers they are connected to.
The 801 has almost too wide a dispersion for many home installations. It has a lot of energy off axis which can result in it being viewed as bright without adequate absorption. This is a common complaint. The Genelec is tuned to be near ideal for many installations. Most Genelec would require a sub to compete for bass frequencies and level. I expect the distortion of the best Geneiec equals or is lower than the B&W Bricasti combination. Less distortion, less lost details.
Bricasti amplifiers and preamplifiers are substantially better in tone , micro detail, bass capability ,accuracy and tone and depth of instruments totally on a much higher level and their drivers and cabinets far from ideal and vibrate ,and drivers
are average quality by any Audiophile standard. B&Wwas just an example but their latest models and Diamond costed tweeters are far more accurate measurements
by a large margin ,in theunder $5 k range Genelec are good , a solid C class speaker amp combo ,you get what you pay for , if you can afford it
just lookin TAS magazine many great products out there .
Bricasti amplifiers and preamplifiers are substantially better in tone
What does that mean? The best Genelecs have near perfect frequency response and very low distortion. How could an amplifier like Bricasti which is neither flat in frequency response with many speakers, nor low in distortion at high frequencies create better tone?
, micro detail,
The Bricasti is not low in distortion. If you are not low in distortion then you cannot be better at detail, micro or otherwise. I don't see how you justify this point.
bass capability ,
The Genelecs will need a sub so I will accede this point. However, a good subwoofer is likely to be better than the 801 in deep accurate bass. It will be an active subwoofer.
accuracy and tone
Back to the Genelec has near perfect frequency response and low distortion. The room will influence tone and the Genelec is likely to provide a superior result in most rooms due to better dispersion. It also lacks high frequency errors that the B&W has.
and depth of instruments totally on a much higher level
I do not know what this comment means so I cannot comment.
and their drivers and cabinets far from ideal and vibrate ,and drivers
How can you make that claim. The distortion figures implies the drivers and amplifier are very high quality, near ideal over a wide frequency range. What evidence do you have that the cabinets vibrate?
are average quality by any Audiophile standard. B&Wwas just an example but their latest models and Diamond costed tweeters are far more accurate measurements
I think this is supposition. If the B&W is superior, why does its frequency response have a good sized dip? Have you compared the two speakers side by side (adding the appropriate sub to the Genelec?). B&W quote 0.3% THD, 100-20KHz, 90db, 1W/1m. The available data I have for the Genelec is 0.4% at a similar power level. You will need to roll off to subwoofers to match the bass performance as I have noted.
by a large margin ,in theunder $5 k range Genelec are good , a solid C class speaker amp combo ,you get what you pay for , if you can afford it
just lookin TAS magazine many great products out there .
The 801D4 is $35,000. I expect compared to say the 8361, which is $10,000 / pair, they are made in lower volume. The cabinet for the 801D4 is an expensive complex wood laminate. Isn't the finish 20 coats? The base is expensive. There is a lot that goes into the construction that makes the speaker look nice, and contributes to cost, but does not help the sound. From what I have read, the dealer markup on B&W is a significant step up from professional sound products. The difference in shipping alone would be substantial. The Genelec will also require 2 subwoofers to compete fully on bass. Those are not cheap, $6,000 - $8,000 / pair, or $16,000 - $18,000 combined.
I would not be hasty to make assumption that the B&W /Bricasti is substantially better or is even better, in a typical room, setup properly, and equalized to match basic frequency response.
@thynameI noticed your system photos seem to show no vinyl source??
He is likely creating a brand new username right now only to post my real name and threaten me with all kind of things. Sad creature. Here is the full list of his usernames:
How many active speakers have you auditioned in your own space?
No one in this thread has claimed that you can't get a great system with either passive or active. Given the SAME budget you will get better performance from an active setup.
"I came up with a way of addressing this question. When people listen to one of my Debut speakers, they don’t ask, “I wonder what this would sound like if you used this SEAS tweeter or that Vifa woofer.” They just accept the choices I’ve made. In an active speaker, I’ve gone one step further in adding another component. But now I have all the benefits of an active design. So [they] just accept them. With passive speakers plus a single amplifier, I couldn’t have achieved that performance at that price.
Each amplifier is matched to the driver, and only has to operate over a limited frequency range. It’s operating into a simpler impedance, so it’s not going to have high-current demands. Also, the temporal characteristics of music change with frequency. High frequencies require very little average power, but have a lot of peaks. Bass requires much higher average power, but has far fewer peaks. You can match the amplifier to those characteristics as well."
How many active speakers have you auditioned in your own space?
No one in this thread has claimed that you can't get a great system with either passive or active. Given the SAME budget you will get better performance from an active setup.
Really?
At some lower budget level a passive can be cheaper and better.
@audioman58, this also is a matter of taste, you like Bricasti amps, you should use them, you will be happy, NP.
For the $20K of a Bricasti and I could get the JBL M2 active speakers, would you consider those reference level?
If you wanted to use Bricasti amps, NP, just don’t buy the Crown amps they are usually packaged with, get the speaker,the external crossover/DSP and you have an active speaker driven by whatever amp you choose.
Don’t like JBL you can do the same thing with Bryston Actives, buy the speaker, the BAX crossover and BYO amp.
@holmzit is possible I guess, but for a beer budget of $200 this is tough to beat. Look at all the controls on the back of it as well, you can tune it for your setup and no need to buy speaker cables saving more cash:
I was blown away by their sound. Open, rich, tremendous separation of instruments and placement, sound stage wider than the speaker distance, deep yet tight punchy bass, clear highs. Tastes can differ, but these suit Me.
And I like their philisophy ... keep the sound digital until the very end where it feeds the loudspeaker. The speakers feature 4 internal amps and a DSP, via which tuning to your liking is possible, also via a room acoustics measurement system.
I thought they are fun to listen to, and will probably be fun to tinker with.
Big plus ... no discussions on the effect of cheap or expensive speaker cables ... there are no cables. :)
@sokogear, They are a powered recliner just like any Lazy-Boy. They are not specifically designed for theater use although I use three of them in a theater set up. There is a second row behind up on a platform. It uses a Stessless love seat. I am going to have to get creative to make a foot rest for it as there is no room for ottomans. The problem was that I could not find any theater seating that could be made with the kind of leather I wanted. Most of it is not built very well.
@donavabdear, I am agreeing entirely. The only difference is I prefer to be the one to choose the amp. I use two types of drivers, ESLs and subwoofers. Never is a long time but it is highly unlikely I will ever use anything else. Both types of driver have very specific requirements and are demanding to drive. The ESLs are very reactive being nothing but large capacitors with very low impedance at high frequencies. Then there are the subwoofer drivers that have huge magnets and 4" double layered voice coils which throw enough back EMF to light a city. Although there are some amps capable of driving both types it turns out the best amp for driving the ESLs is not good at all for subwoofers.
Another point is that the room is an essential part of the loudspeaker system. I use microphones and computer programs to measure the result and apply digital equalization to get what I want.
True, but isn't the vast majority of recordings available on Tidal and/or Qobuz nowadays? In lossless format, or sometimes even as a digital source in higher quality than LP or tape can ever offer?
@kota1It is not a contest. It is about achieving the ultimate sound. It's not about achieving tolerable or OK sound. I have owned and listened to every type of speaker driver made. I even had access to a set of Hills Plasmatronics for a month, nitrogen tanks included. I have the sound I am looking for in my head and I know the path to that sound as I have been on it for close to 40 years since I got my first pair of ESLs in 1979 , Acoustat X's which were active speakers by the way! They had their own special high voltage amps in back. The problem for Active speaker designers is that the room is an integral part of the system. You have to be able to measure the speaker in the room and have a means to respond to the discrepancies. The only other path to the absolute sound is shear luck. Using Room control for the bass only is not good enough. You have to use it full frequency. Then you have to make sure the frequency response of both channels is exactly the same or imaging will suffer. No two speakers are exactly alike. When you place them in different locations they can become vastly different. This is why the speakers have to be tested in place. There are some products that do this, it is becoming more popular in subwoofers. The very best way is to get your own USB measurement mic and the right computer programming. But, you have to be able to respond to amplitude errors and group delays. Without digital signal processing you are stuck with acoustic treatments and wishful thinking. However it is important to note that DSP has it's limits and appropriate room acoustic management remains very important.
@mijostyn, we are in complete agreement on your last post. I have an all out system in my HT, and "good enough" systems in other rooms all connected via DTS Play-Fi app. I wish more people that bought receivers/preamps with DSP understood that they are limited in what they can do. Even the head panther at ASR eschews acoustic treatments. Why bother dropping big money on components and then choking them in all that reflected sound bouncing uncotrollably around?
@rudyb, WOW, congrats, that looks like a great system and love how they built in an upgrade path. Have you tried after market power cords yet?
Together with the built-in amplifiers and digital signal processors, the powerful woofers operate down to 17 Hz. This is not possible for traditional loudspeakers.
They must bring the thunder and have built in DSP to dial all that bass into the room, sweet!
You have been at this a while! I too have listened to Hill Plasmatronics and they were amazing. I've heard almost every Accustat, Maggies, KEF, Dahlquists, Time Windows, Advents, double stacked advents, and a LOT of conventional speakers. I ran a high end store in the late 70s, then was a hi fi rep out of Chicago in the 80s.
You say "The problem for Active speaker designers is that the room is an integral part of the system." This is the problem for EVERY speaker designer, active passive or any design between. This is the mystery sauce behind so many radically different opinions/posts about a given model or brand: "I tried that, it was awful", then "Hey-I own that, it's marvelous". It's all about the room, making a speaker wonderful and awful at the same time. This is the confusion of speaker demos- you aren't demoing speakers, you are demoing the room.
@kota1, that is a strange conundrum, faithful to measurements, but untreated room. Dr. Toole had his omnidirectional speakers in an untreated room too, but his room was very large. That works in a large room where the reflections are delayed. Amir's room is small. Too each their own. His focus is on signal integrity including what comes out of a speaker and debunking.
Together with the built-in amplifiers and digital signal processors, the powerful woofers operate down to 17 Hz. This is not possible for traditional loudspeakers.
@kota1Well, I take that kind of marketing babble with a grain of salt, but they did go deep and they stayed controlled, not boomy. What they can also do is change the bass level depending on volume. Like we used to have a loudness switch on an amp in the old days. This now is a fluent change, lower volume, gradual lifted bass. It really makes a difference.
@kota1, Atmos may be cool for cinema and gaming but not for an ultimate two channel system, they just do not need that kind of help. All you are doing is adding more distortion. My system sounds better, much better without it. If your system sounds better with it you have work to do. I HATE headphones. I use special Etymotic ear buds to protect my hearing when I am mowing the lawn, cutting down trees or riding the motorcycle. Music is a visceral experience you feel the music as well as hear it. Headphones cut off 1/2 the experience.
@lonemountain, you are absolutely correct. This concept applies to all speakers. Theoretically, you can get any speaker to perform at it's best in most rooms if you are given free rein and have enough processing power. Back in the day the tools we had available were awful. I managed he problem by picking the right speaker for the room. I used a lot of Maggies because they caused less room interaction and my typical customer was not interested in high volumes.
It was fun just to sit and watch the Plasmatronics glow. We did not sell any. Did you miss the Levison HQD system? That was really nuts.
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