Is it necessary to use the same brand and model of power cables for the amp and pre-amp? Any thoughts about mixing and matching? I know it all comes down to how they sound, but would love to hear your inputs or tips to guide me in the selection.
wmarkhall "Oh, dear..." Indeed! For sure, I never intended to start a filter capacitor power-reserve competition but alas, that might be what I have done? I am so ashamed... * And not only that! I see that my speaker cables are ’backwards’ - the printing reads [left to right] from speaker to amplifier. Oh No! But, at least both channels have the same "fault"! ;-)
elizabeth, please keep us posted how the Pangea PCs perform as they age. There were a number of reports from the field that in contrast with most other brand cords the Pangea cords tend to get "worse" as they age. I've been using a couple of their AC14SE MKIIs in my digital source components for a couple of years and can't hear a difference as they age. They seem to be very well made but a bit rigid for tight spaces.
Power cords DO make a difference. I have gone through several. I wonder now if I was just trying to adjust for my room deficiencies? By this I mean, room acoustics.
I've been focusing on room acoustics for a few years. I find this aspect of "system building" is more rewarding and lasting, vs. the power cord of the week.
wmarkhall Re. Sagging capacitors... But if one is "listening" with the level control at Ten, there will be no headroom remaining for the drummer to deliver the ’Coup de grâce’ to your eardrums. ;-)
“It would be silly to pack an 18 gauge power cable with a McIntosh, so they get a cable that at least "looks the part" and maintain their credibility”
My McIntosh MC2200 (200 wpc into 8, 4, and 2 ohms) has a stock and captive two prong power cord that is just about as “heavy” as the cord on the lamp sitting on my end table. Go figure.
Yes, that's how it works. I'll provide a link. If an amplifier is correctly designed, "sagging capacitors" amounts to a cable marketing blurb. If you think any substantial amount of juice for your volume control is coming directly from the cable you paid a lot of $ for then you're not following the design topology and you're listening to music with your wallet.
"the mains is only directly in use 5 to 10% of the time since the power supply system’s inherent design is to fill capacitors that provide smoothed and constant direct current for the supply rails that ultimately amplify the signal"
Then, once the BFCap's are charged to peak voltage, only a "trickle" charge is needed to sustain my 150Watt amplifier? Are you folks nutz? At very low volume level my Adcom 545II breaks-up into heavy distortion and dies completely in only one or two seconds after switching off power. The only ones "not knowing enough about electricity" are those buying-in to concepts like this!
P.S. The power cable can not "assist" in delivering more AC current than the amplifier’s power transformer is capable of delivering once its iron core is magnetically ’saturated’ and the reservoir capacitors are sagging!
@wmarkhall - as stated in my first post - components with large, well designed cords do not show as much in the way of improvements, compared to those components with smaller power supplies, such as source components.
WRT ...
explain to us how this makes a single iota of difference when in an amplifier’s linear power supply the current through the mains is only directly in use 5 to 10% of the time since the power supply system’s inherent design is to fill capacitors that provide smoothed and constant direct current for the supply rails that ultimately amplify the signal.
Alas I do not have the equipment that would allow me to ascertain an exact reason why... - but I have observed that even an amp with a well designed and built power supply, such as Ayre and Gryphon, will show some improvement, but the improvements will be more subtle in nature - I found that the acosutics of recording venue in live concerts sound more realistic and more noticeable and the image was bigger and more open. . I have tried the helix and braided power cables on amps from $350 - $10,000. The brands vary - Yamaha, NAIM, AYRE and Gryphon as well as a couple of tube amps and they all yeilded improvements in sound quality.
I will add that the improvements were more noticeable when the entire system uses the Helic IC’s and speaker cables also.
As @geoffkait said...
It all seems ludicrous until you try it and hear it yourself.
As for me - I can only pass on what I and others have observed and try to make some sense of it.
Improvements in sound quality on every system that employed these cables were reported by their owners.
But even after lots of threads dicussing this topic on Audiogon we are left with three "camps" ... - Those that have observed improvements - Those that have not observed improvements - Those that choose to believe that quality, well designed cables make no difference
I have no issues with peole from any of those groups - I’m just passing on some of my observations and thoughts.
Take them or leave them - we all have our own beliefs AND a forum to share them on - thanks Audiogon :-)
There is no doubt in my mind that power tweaks (circuit, outlet, cable, conditioners, etc.) do make a difference to the sound of the amp. And the direction of improvement is always toward the higher priced tweaks. I can say this from personal experience. This is not delusion yet it makes no sense ... to the pragmatic audiophile ...nor, I suspect, to the design engineer of the amp or the tweak. I think we just don’t know enough about electricity (nor reality). Personally, if we are living in a simulation, some alien joker coded: IF {’snake oil audiophile fix added’} THEN {’make music sound better in brain of listener’}. That’s my guess.
Considering you can get everything you need to build a custom 2m, highly conductive, heavy duty power cable, including high grade, 10g or 8g pure copper, insulated cable and quality silver or gold plated ends, for about $45.00, from any of several industrial, electrical supply companies - the idea of spending $2,000.00 or even $200.00 for a power cable seems a bit ludicrous The idea that manufacturers like ARC, Ayre, Cary, VAC, etc, etc would build $10,000. amplifiers that wouldn’t/couldn’t sound really good unless the buyer replaced the stock fuses and power cord with special blue fuses and a magic $2,000.00 power cord - is even more ludicrous......Jim
Great. Now that you've written all of that, explain to us how this makes a single iota of difference when in an amplifier's linear power supply the current through the mains is only directly in use 5 to 10% of the time since the power supply system's inherent design is to fill capacitors that provide smoothed and constant direct current for the supply rails that ultimately amplify the signal. Unless your contention is that the current provided by a scant meter or less of cable has somehow conditioned the wall current in such a way for storage in the system's res capacitor(s) that it is improved in some way that impacts what exits the system to be reproduced by cones. That's one magic sonic loogey you got there!
@wmarkhall - I’ll attempt to address your questions in order, but some answers overlap...
what part --specifically-- inherent to the "advanced" power cable enables it to allow more power from the station / to the pole / over the lines / into your home through the walls after going through its own short run of wire?
An advanced power cable is generally constructed by using the best possible quality copper or silver plated copper - this provides better conductivity, which improves the dynamic perofrmance of the cables. - it allows for a faster response to the components "request" for more current - a component’s circuitry draws current and when it cannot get enough current to satisfy it’s requirements the circuits internal voltages dip and distortions in the signal occures
And (b) what part of the PSU system within the component senses and allows more current than what it is specified to engage
The PSU senses nothing - it simply tries to deliver the amount of current requested by the internal circuitry of a component, as it tries to accomodate the demands of the ausio signal - and transient spikes are the most demanding. - Again - if the transient spike requires more "power" (i.e. current) than the PSU of the components can deliver, the voltage dips and the reproduction of that transient spike is less than optimal and sound quality is effected. However, the PSU tries to draw that excess power required from the mains supply via the power cable. - An advanced PC will assist in that transfer - a standard PC will not be able to convey the current in a "timely manner"
a timely conveyance of it, as you say, to increase audio transients?
If you can build "the perfect power cable" it would allow a component to process a transient spike completely. - if the cable is not capable of conveying the power (i.e. current) required frpom the mains, then the amplified transient spike will look and sound quite different.
Finally (c) what makes this wire magic so expensive that it is not within the cost/benefit analysis parameters of the manufacturers to include it with their mid to higher priced products if the difference is so easily heard?
Modestly priced components are designed/built to a specific "price point" - they get the cables that the company feels "does the job at the price point"
More expensive audiophile components come with "reasonable" power cables, but the companies that make them believe that the customer will simply replace the included power cable, because that is what many audiophiles do - so why bother investing the time and energy when according to the consumer there is a better power cable out there. It would be silly to pack an 18 gauge power cable with a McIntosh, so they get a cable that at least "looks the part" and maintain their credibility
But n addition to your questions I would like to address the geometry of the cable again, because this is the area that is currently being investigated by cable manufacturers... - most conventional power cables are noisy - it’s what happens when you place three conductors in parallel inside a sleeve - noise is induce into the neutral, and vice versa when the polarity changes. - Most of this noise is dealt quite effectively by large power supplies, that’s why large power amps sound so good. But in components with less than optimum power supplies this noise has an impact.
Of the simple geometries I have tried/built... - braiding, because the three conductors are not in parallel, their ability to induce noise between them is reduced and sound quality improves by about 40-60%, - the Helix design - where the neutral and ground conductors are almost at right angles to the live wire - the result is very little noise and much improved sound quality is achieved.
If you have a really noisy mains power supply (i.e. from the street) - then a good power cable will will simply convey that noise - but with more precision.
Another interesting point - people look at the mains supply and figure "it’s just 50/60 Hz - why would I need power cables capable of conveying the entire audio spectrum" - I thought about this when I first read it posted here on audiogon - Granted the voltage has a frequency responce of 50/60 Hz
BUT - what about the current that is drawn??? - as the audio signal is processed the component draws just the right amount of current to process it. - if a loud bass note is processed a large amount of current is drawn - if a quiet passage is processed much less current is drawn
So based on that - isn’t it reasonable to assume that the current drawn (i.e. over time) would in fact resemble the audio signal ? - most of the time the components power supply does an adequate job of satisfying the demans of the connected circuit, but when those large transients come along, most power supplies will not deliver the required current in a "timely manner"
If that is the case, then for me, power cables with high quality conductors (as in the rest of your system), makes perfect sense.
I hope this answers your questions
BTW - I have no actual proof that any of the above actually happens - it’s just my early electrical education being applied in areas it was never really meant for and it’s also based on my "experiments" with different cable geometries over the last 5 years
Power Cords! More Power Scotty! ...to add my own HiFi thought...Every Component can make a Audio Difference. Personally I love Cables...and for the investment the Silver Resolution AC Cords from Signal Cable are insanely “good!” However...as always, the selection of components...from the Wall Outlet Receptacle to the Cartridge will/can affect the Audio Quality.
...remember, just because one person has a Negative Opinion - does not mean you have too. Make your HiFi fun.
“Me”...Before I upgraded AC Cords, I upgraded the Outlets First...that was a big deal.
CT221933 - Have you received any useful responses amidst these 'cable wars'? (I assume it's not helpful just to hear that some posters don't believe A/C cords make a difference, and read the ensuing rebuttals.)
There is no reason you cannot mix-and-match A/C cords in your system. If you have different ones, try them on various components and listen.
OTOH, once you find a cord that you especially like, you may find that it sounds better than others throughout your system.
Sincere apologies for keeping this one going, but so many posters in cable threads are talking entirely through something other than their mouth when they make claims about "demanding" audio transients requiring something from a power cable when anyone with amplifier 101 knows the mains are decoupled from the circuit practically the entire time thanks to capacitors.
The standard power cable provided by the maunfacturer is not capable of responding to the immense demands of tranient signals. More advanced designs allow the conveyance of enough power in a timely manner such that an amp can perform up to its full potential and reproduce those transients more faithfully.
I loathe to ask, but (a) what part --specifically-- inherent to the "advanced" power cable enables it to allow more power from the station / to the pole / over the lines / into your home through the walls after going through its own short run of wire? And (b) what part of the PSU system within the component senses and allows more current than what it is specified to engage .. a timely conveyance of it, as you say, to increase audio transients? Finally (c) what makes this wire magic so expensive that it is not within the cost/benefit analysis parameters of the manufacturers to include it with their mid to higher priced products if the difference is so easily heard? Thank you.
Wow. I am sorry I wasted 5 minutes reading this. I agree with what jimf42 says plus you should add the wires from the transformer in the street feeding your house :) The aftermarket power cable thing is pure science fiction when you consider the whole ecosystem.
Just make sure the wiring in your power cord is thick enough (14AWG - 12AWG). If you are concerned about noise, such as with a Class D amp, get a shielded cord. And no, they are not power chords, those went out of fashion in the 80's with the hair metal bands...
Hey, remember that time when some of you guys were talking about that new amplifier from that new company that everyone was talking about and then all of a sudden one guy said... "Hey, you're absolutely right"!.......Remember that?... That was awesome !
Sisyphus, thanks for providing the link. However, firstly, let’s not use the term "pulses." That would imply a squarish waveform, which is not what is being referred to. What is being referred to are the portions of a 60 Hz sine wave that approach and include its positive and negative peaks.
Secondly, and more significantly, the reference you provided does not address what happens **after** the rectifier bridge. As noted earlier by you and also in one of Ralph’s posts that I quoted there are capacitors, which smooth the waveform into a close approximation of DC and also store energy, that stored energy being what powers the downstream circuits.
And as Ralph explained earlier the rectifier diodes will only conduct when the instantaneous voltage of the AC supplied by the power transformer exceeds the voltage stored on the capacitors. Or, more precisely, when the instantaneous AC voltage exceeds the voltage stored on the capacitors by the relatively small amount that is necessary to turn the diodes on (which is approximately 1.4 volts in the case of a typical full-wave solid state bridge rectifier circuit). And assuming the rectification circuit is full-wave, that will only happen when the AC voltage supplied by the power transformer is approaching either a positive or a negative peak. In other words, for just a relatively small fraction of the 60 Hz period.
During the rest of the 60 Hz period the rectifier diodes will be back-biased and unable to conduct. Therefore AC current will not be drawn continuously, but rather for just a fraction of each cycle. In other words, the AC current which restores charge to the capacitors is drawn in narrow "spikes," with "spikes" being defined per the first paragraph in this post. As Ralph, I, and Elizabeth have all maintained.
In any event, thanks for providing the chuckle of the day with the "duty calls" cartoon :-)
A full-wave rectifier uses both halves ot the 60Hz input flipping the negative phase of the sine wave to create a 120Hz positive-going input to the power supply filter capacitors. * These are not square pulses with high harmonic content though. https://electronicscoach.com/full-wave-rectifier.html Darn it! I wish I knew how to post a image directly!
Oh! Vacuum tube rectifiers like 5U4/ 5AR4 are full-wave.
Quote: Ralph K. " I’ve seen a 2 1/2 volt drop rob an amplifier of about 30% of its output power. The cord was rated for 10 amps, and the draw was about 6 amps. This measurement was done with a simple 3 1/2 digit Digital Voltmeter."
How about we all relax and drop this useless back and forth griping? That is my plan :- RG
Sisyphus51 6-14-2018 A IR voltage drop of two volts across a very long power cable will not cause an equal 2 volt drop in filament voltage in a vacuum tube amp.
Of course not, and no one has said that it would. In designs in which filament voltages are unregulated the drop will be essentially proportional. 2 volts/120 volts = 1.67%.
In tube datasheets I’ve seen which provide +/- tolerances for filament voltage (and many of them don’t) the specified tolerance is usually +/- 5% or +/- 10%. And I see no reason to expect that performance would be identical or even particularly similar throughout those tolerances. 1.67% is not an insignificant fraction of those tolerances.
Regarding your other comments, Ralph was of course not saying that the extreme example he cited represents typical performance for most or even many designs. He was citing that example in support of his explanation of why power cords can make a difference. And if a person like Ralph says that "depending on the amp this can be pretty profound. and I have seen it with my own eyes," that’s good enough for me.
geoffkait Re. Pop Quiz " How come HDMI cables are directional?"
They are not unless they have active circuitry built in to compensate for unusually long runs. ;-)
>>>>Quick, you better tell Audioquest! I have their Carbon HDMI Cable which, like all of their high end cables, HDMI cables and power cords, are controlled for directionality during the manufacturing process. Great picture btw. 😀 When only the best will do.
to whit,
”DIRECTIONALITY: All audio cables are directional. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. All signal conductors controlled for digital-audio direction in AudioQuest HDMI cables, and care is even taken to run the conductors used in the Audio Return Channel in the opposite direction to ensure the best performance for that application. Arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality.”
I have to dispute the assertions of the article referenced by you in your post. Current is not drawn in pulses. That is what the rectifier and filter capacitors are for - to store enough charge for smooth operation. And if the charge in the power supply is sagging below full supply voltage it is because of excess power consumption or a failure in the power supply! A IR voltage drop of two volts across a very long power cable will not cause an equal 2 volt drop in filament voltage in a vacuum tube amp. It certainly will not cause a two figure loss in power output! That is ludicrous! If one desires increased dynamic range in their music reproduction, one needs 1. More Power. 2. More efficient loudspeakers. 3. Less sound absorption in the listening room. Expensive power cords will not do the job!
Why do folks insist that "Power Cables" need to have a bandwidth equal to that of a very high-spec amplifier’s audio bandwidth? Are you people INSANE? We are talking about 60Hz AC here!
If your power cords are carrying Khz range signals or noise there is something horribly wrong with your amplifier that needs to be corrected immediately, if not sooner because you are essentially operating a Radio Transmitter in violation of Federal Law!
Not sure you are realizing that if current is only drawn during a small fraction of each 60 Hz cycle, as Ralph/Atmasphere clearly explained in the post I quoted, spectral components are present at vastly higher frequencies than 60 Hz.
Which, btw, is the main reason I said in my post earlier in the thread that:
Almarg 6-12-2018
Power amps can generate significant amounts of high frequency noise that can be fed back into the power cord and affect other parts of the system, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the shielding, bandwidth, capacitance and other characteristics of the power cord.
Sisyphus51 6-13-2018 I just measured the drop across the 5.5 foot original power cord on my 1964 Scott 222D Integrated Amp.....
Among a number of other vintage pieces I have an H. H. Scott 299C integrated, ca. 1961, that I sometimes use in a second system. 7591 power tubes and a 5AR4 rectifier. Very nice piece. I sometimes use it in conjunction with a 1952 Radiocraftsmen 10 mono AM/FM tuner, the combo producing very lush, rich, and beguiling sonics on FM.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
