Power Cables

How long has this (thread) been going on?
- apologies to Paul Carrack for borrowing his lyric. ;-)

How long has this (thread) been going on?

Not remotely close to as long as many other cable-related threads/debates :-)

Regards,
-- Al

Sincere apologies for keeping this one going, but so many posters in cable threads are talking entirely through something other than their mouth when they make claims about "demanding" audio transients requiring something from a power cable when anyone with amplifier 101 knows the mains are decoupled from the circuit practically the entire time thanks to capacitors.

Power Cords!  More Power Scotty!  ...to add my own HiFi thought...Every Component can make a Audio Difference. Personally I love Cables...and for the investment the Silver Resolution AC Cords from Signal Cable are insanely “good!”  However...as always, the selection of components...from the Wall Outlet Receptacle to the Cartridge will/can affect the Audio Quality. 

...remember, just because one person has a Negative Opinion - does not mean you have too. Make your HiFi fun. 

“Me”...Before I upgraded AC Cords, I upgraded the Outlets First...that was a big deal. 

aalenik: I appreciate all the input. Learned alot from both sides. Just quietly observing this thread.  

@wmarkhall - I’ll attempt to address your questions in order, but some answers overlap...

what part --specifically-- inherent to the "advanced" power cable enables it to allow more power from the station / to the pole / over the lines / into your home through the walls after going through its own short run of wire?

An advanced power cable is generally constructed by using the best possible quality copper or silver plated copper
- this provides better conductivity, which improves the dynamic perofrmance of the cables.
- it allows for a faster response to the components "request" for more current
- a component’s circuitry draws current and when it cannot get enough current to satisfy it’s requirements the circuits internal voltages dip and distortions in the signal occures

And (b) what part of the PSU system within the component senses and allows more current than what it is specified to engage

The PSU senses nothing - it simply tries to deliver the amount of current requested by the internal circuitry of a component, as it tries to accomodate the demands of the ausio signal - and transient spikes are the most demanding.
- Again - if the transient spike requires more "power" (i.e. current) than the PSU of the components can deliver, the voltage dips and the reproduction of that transient spike is less than optimal and sound quality is effected.
However, the PSU tries to draw that excess power required from the mains supply via the power cable.
- An advanced PC will assist in that transfer
- a standard PC will not be able to convey the current in a "timely manner"

a timely conveyance of it, as you say, to increase audio transients?

If you can build "the perfect power cable" it would allow a component to process a transient spike completely.
- if the cable is not capable of conveying the power (i.e. current) required frpom the mains, then the amplified transient spike will look and sound quite different.

Finally (c) what makes this wire magic so expensive that it is not within the cost/benefit analysis parameters of the manufacturers to include it with their mid to higher priced products if the difference is so easily heard?

Modestly priced components are designed/built to a specific "price point" - they get the cables that the company feels "does the job at the price point"

More expensive audiophile components come with "reasonable" power cables, but the companies that make them believe that the customer will simply replace the included power cable, because that is what many audiophiles do - so why bother investing the time and energy when according to the consumer there is a better power cable out there.
It would be silly to pack an 18 gauge power cable with a McIntosh, so they get a cable that at least "looks the part" and maintain their credibility

But n addition to your questions I would like to address the geometry of the cable again, because this is the area that is currently being investigated by cable manufacturers...
- most conventional power cables are noisy
- it’s what happens when you place three conductors in parallel inside a sleeve - noise is induce into the neutral, and vice versa when the polarity changes.
- Most of this noise is dealt quite effectively by large power supplies, that’s why large power amps sound so good.
But in components with less than optimum power supplies this noise has an impact.

Of the simple geometries I have tried/built...
- braiding, because the three conductors are not in parallel, their ability to induce noise between them is reduced and sound quality improves by about 40-60%,
- the Helix design - where the neutral and ground conductors are almost at right angles to the live wire - the result is very little noise and much improved sound quality is achieved.

If you have a really noisy mains power supply (i.e. from the street) - then a good power cable will will simply convey that noise - but with more precision.

Another interesting point - people look at the mains supply and figure "it’s just 50/60 Hz - why would I need power cables capable of conveying the entire audio spectrum"
- I thought about this when I first read it posted here on audiogon
- Granted the voltage has a frequency responce of 50/60 Hz

BUT - what about the current that is drawn???
- as the audio signal is processed the component draws just the right amount of current to process it.
- if a loud bass note is processed a large amount of current is drawn
- if a quiet passage is processed much less current is drawn

So based on that - isn’t it reasonable to assume that the current drawn (i.e. over time) would in fact resemble the audio signal ?
- most of the time the components power supply does an adequate job of satisfying the demans of the connected circuit, but when those large transients come along, most power supplies will not deliver the required current in a "timely manner"

If that is the case, then for me, power cables with high quality conductors (as in the rest of your system), makes perfect sense.

I hope this answers your questions

BTW - I have no actual proof that any of the above actually happens - it’s just my early electrical education being applied in areas it was never really meant for and it’s also based on my "experiments" with different cable geometries over the last 5 years

Regards - Steve

Great. Now that you've written all of that, explain to us how this makes a single iota of difference when in an amplifier's linear power supply the current through the mains is only directly in use 5 to 10% of the time since the power supply system's inherent design is to fill capacitors that provide smoothed and constant direct current for the supply rails that ultimately amplify the signal. Unless your contention is that the current provided by a scant meter or less of cable has somehow conditioned the wall current in such a way for storage in the system's res capacitor(s) that it is improved in some way that impacts what exits the system to be reproduced by cones. That's one magic sonic loogey you got there!

Considering you can get everything you need to build a custom 2m, highly conductive, heavy duty power cable, including high grade, 10g or 8g pure copper, insulated cable and quality silver or gold plated ends, for about $45.00, from any of several industrial, electrical supply companies - the idea of spending $2,000.00 or even $200.00 for a power cable seems a bit ludicrous
The idea that manufacturers like ARC, Ayre, Cary, VAC, etc, etc would build $10,000. amplifiers that wouldn’t/couldn’t sound really good unless the buyer replaced the stock fuses and power cord with special blue fuses and a magic $2,000.00 power cord - is even more ludicrous......Jim

There is no doubt in my mind that power tweaks (circuit, outlet, cable, conditioners, etc.) do make a difference to the sound of the amp. And the direction of improvement is always toward the higher priced tweaks. I can say this from personal experience.
This is not delusion yet it makes no sense ... to the pragmatic audiophile ...nor, I suspect, to the design engineer of the amp or the tweak.
I think we just don’t know enough about electricity (nor reality). Personally, if we are living in a simulation, some alien joker coded: IF {’snake oil audiophile fix added’} THEN {’make music sound better in brain of listener’}. That’s my guess.

@dmance I think there might just be a lot of truth in all of that....Jim

It all seems ludicrous until you try it and hear it yourself. And if you can’t afford it don’t worry about it. Case closed. Moving right along...

-3

@wmarkhall - as stated in my first post - components with large, well designed cords do not show as much in the way of improvements, compared to those components with smaller power supplies, such as source components.

WRT ...

explain to us how this makes a single iota of difference when in an amplifier’s linear power supply the current through the mains is only directly in use 5 to 10% of the time since the power supply system’s inherent design is to fill capacitors that provide smoothed and constant direct current for the supply rails that ultimately amplify the signal.

Alas I do not have the equipment that would allow me to ascertain an exact reason why...
- but I have observed that even an amp with a well designed and built power supply, such as Ayre and Gryphon, will show some improvement, but the improvements will be more subtle in nature
- I found that the acosutics of recording venue in live concerts sound more realistic and more noticeable and the image was bigger and more open.
.
I have tried the helix and braided power cables on amps from $350 - $10,000. The brands vary - Yamaha, NAIM, AYRE and Gryphon as well as a couple of tube amps and they all yeilded improvements in sound quality.

I will add that the improvements were more noticeable when the entire system uses the Helic IC’s and speaker cables also.

As @geoffkait said...

It all seems ludicrous until you try it and hear it yourself.

As for me - I can only pass on what I and others have observed and try to make some sense of it.

Improvements in sound quality on every system that employed these cables were reported by their owners.

But even after lots of threads dicussing this topic on Audiogon we are left with three "camps" ...
- Those that have observed improvements
- Those that have not observed improvements
- Those that choose to believe that quality, well designed cables make no difference

I have no issues with peole from any of those groups - I’m just passing on some of my observations and thoughts.

Take them or leave them - we all have our own beliefs AND a forum to share them on - thanks Audiogon :-)

Regards - Steve

@dmance...

  I think we just don’t know enough about electricity 

Interestingly - I believe you are not wrong.

I spoke with an "electronics technician" that repaired a friends solid state amp which "self destructed" due to the speaker cables he had used.

He had never heard of amps being driven to a state of oscilation due to the use of high capacitance speaker cables.

That's someone on the technical side of the industry not being aware of, what I consider, a basic design "consideration". 

So what other things are people in the industry not aware of ???

I shudder to think :-)

Regards - Steve

No shirt, Sherlock? How about power cords, fuses, isolation, directionality of wire, contact enhancer, to name a few?

"the mains is only directly in use 5 to 10% of the time since the power supply system’s inherent design is to fill capacitors that provide smoothed and constant direct current for the supply rails that ultimately amplify the signal"

Then, once the BFCap's are charged to peak voltage, only a "trickle" charge is needed to sustain my 150Watt amplifier? Are you folks nutz? At very low volume level my Adcom 545II breaks-up into heavy distortion and dies completely in only one or two seconds after switching off power.
The only ones "not knowing enough about electricity" are those buying-in to concepts like this!

P.S. The power cable can not "assist" in delivering more AC current than the amplifier’s power transformer is capable of delivering once its iron core is magnetically ’saturated’ and the reservoir capacitors are sagging!

Yes, that's how it works. I'll provide a link. If an amplifier is correctly designed, "sagging capacitors" amounts to a cable marketing blurb. If you think any substantial amount of juice for your volume control is coming directly from the cable you paid a lot of $ for then you're not following the design topology and you're listening to music with your wallet.

http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/power-management/linear-power-supply-psu/basics-tutorial.php

“It would be silly to pack an 18 gauge power cable with a McIntosh, so they get a cable that at least "looks the part" and maintain their credibility”

My McIntosh MC2200 (200 wpc into 8, 4, and 2 ohms) has a stock and captive two prong power cord that is just about as “heavy” as the cord on the lamp sitting on my end table. Go figure.

wmarkhall
Re. Sagging capacitors...
But if one is "listening" with the level control at Ten, there will be no headroom remaining for the drummer to deliver the ’Coup de grâce’ to your eardrums. ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOO5S4vxi0o

Elizabeth,
Just curious what cable & connectors you put together that didn't work out for you. 

Oh dear ..

Power cords DO make a difference. I have gone through several. I wonder now if I was just trying to adjust for my room deficiencies? By this I mean, room acoustics.


I've been focusing on room acoustics for a few years. I find this aspect of "system building" is more rewarding and lasting, vs. the power cord of the week.

elizabeth, please keep us posted how the Pangea PCs perform as they age. There were a number of reports from the field that in contrast with most other brand cords the Pangea cords tend to get "worse" as they age. I've been using a couple of their AC14SE MKIIs in my digital source components for a couple of years and can't hear a difference as they age. They seem to be very well made but a bit rigid for tight spaces.

wmarkhall
"Oh, dear..." Indeed!
For sure, I never intended to start a filter capacitor power-reserve competition but alas, that might be what I have done? I am so ashamed...
* And not only that! I see that my speaker cables are ’backwards’ - the printing reads [left to right] from speaker to amplifier. Oh No! But, at least both channels have the same "fault"! ;-)